Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[StrangeKitten]

Tea released his Pac-Man matchup chart

てぃーぎんこいぶべじちょんれんでパックマンパーフエクトなキャラダイヤ作りました！！
永久保存版です！！！@ginkopacman @japaneserz
@Evepacman @SJimp01 pic.twitter.com/0nJ0XYnc54

— てぃー｜Tea (@chibiT2169) August 28, 2020

Pikachu and Pichu lose to Pac? Like dang, they're super low for characters who would seem to do very well vs Pac on paper

 

[SwagGuy99]

Tea released his Pac-Man matchup chart

てぃーぎんこいぶべじちょんれんでパックマンパーフエクトなキャラダイヤ作りました！！
永久保存版です！！！@ginkopacman @japaneserz
@Evepacman @SJimp01 pic.twitter.com/0nJ0XYnc54

— てぃー｜Tea (@chibiT2169) August 28, 2020

I saw this. Interesting that Tea thinks that beats slightly while goes even, although I know Japan has a higher opinion of Doc than the US/EU and in a more defensive and campy meta where projectile campers are viewed somewhat more positively from what I can tell, this isn't too absurd of a take. I know that most US players have realized Doc is susceptible to getting camped, and while yes, faster characters are effective at running away from him (like and ), Doc's tools to deal with projectile campers are overall, much better, thanks to pills and cape, so this opinion (while a little weird) isn't completely unreasonable.

Pikachu and Pichu lose to Pac? Like dang, they're super low for characters who would seem to do very well vs Pac on paper

You'd think this would be the case, but Pac-Man has surprisingly good tools against (and ). Their ability to edgeguard really well doesn't mean much against Pac-Man, who has a ton of options to mix up his recovery which travels extreme distances. At close range, Pac has decent tools to contest them as well, like n-air and f-air. Pika especially also struggles to deal with hydrant I'd imagine, since most of his moves are fairly low damage. IMO Pac is arguably one of Pika's worst matchups (I personally think Pika loses slightly to and although I can see Mario and Ness being harder than a slight loss in the future and may also lose slightly or go even against and ).

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Tea released his Pac-Man matchup chart

Doc in slight disadvantage...
While it's not Doc's worst MU, I find this hard to believe...

Even if playing the camping game theoretically doesn't work out as well, Pacman's disjointed Fair, Smash Attacks, and grab still give problems for Doc.
He still has plenty of good boxing tools and mashing options to challenge Doc, so it's not a case of the MU flipping in Doc's favor when he gets in.

Pacman might not craziest gameplan against brawlers, but nothing to put Doc in favor of it.

 

[StrangeKitten]

You'd think this would be the case, but Pac-Man has surprisingly good tools against (and ). Their ability to edgeguard really well doesn't mean much against Pac-Man, who has a ton of options to mix up his recovery which travels extreme distances. At close range, Pac has decent tools to contest them as well, like n-air and f-air. Pika especially also struggles to deal with hydrant I'd imagine, since most of his moves are fairly low damage. IMO Pac is arguably one of Pika's worst matchups (I personally think Pika loses slightly to and although I can see Mario and Ness being harder than a slight loss in the future and may also lose slightly or go even against and ).

Oh yeah, I forgot Pac's recovery is dummy good. That would probably make him much harder to kill for the chus than most other characters. His weight is kinda up there for how good his recovery is, too.

Regardless, it's surprising to see the chus that low. I don't speak Japanese, but I can't imagine the other characters in those tiers are bad matchups for Pac.

 

[TennisBall]

I saw this. Interesting that Tea thinks that beats slightly while goes even, although I know Japan has a higher opinion of Doc than the US/EU and in a more defensive and campy meta where projectile campers are viewed somewhat more positively from what I can tell, this isn't too absurd of a take. I know that most US players have realized Doc is susceptible to getting camped, and while yes, faster characters are effective at running away from him (like and ), Doc's tools to deal with projectile campers are overall, much better, thanks to pills and cape, so this opinion (while a little weird) isn't completely unreasonable.



You'd think this would be the case, but Pac-Man has surprisingly good tools against (and ). Their ability to edgeguard really well doesn't mean much against Pac-Man, who has a ton of options to mix up his recovery which travels extreme distances. At close range, Pac has decent tools to contest them as well, like n-air and f-air. Pika especially also struggles to deal with hydrant I'd imagine, since most of his moves are fairly low damage. IMO Pac is arguably one of Pika's worst matchups (I personally think Pika loses slightly to and although I can see Mario and Ness being harder than a slight loss in the future and may also lose slightly or go even against and ).

You did a good job covering the topic but I did want to add on to a bit of it.
It is important to note that Tea has played ESAM 5 times since Ultimate's release, two sets in PGR Season 1 and three sets in Season 2 and has not lost one set in that period of time, which is not only very impressive but also can give a pretty good understanding as to why Tea would think Pac would win the MU.

Pichu while doing more damage than Pika has less range and generally has to commit more and dies eariler which isn't a great combination against Hydrant and Bell along with the points that you have already made.

Kinda curious as to Kirby being in even. I don't know who's favor it's in I know nothing about that mu although I know Ron is in Japan and he has a very good Kirby.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Tea is a fantastic player so I won't disregard his opinions, but Pac-Man losing 20+ MUs doesn't really seem scream top tier material, especially when only 4 of his winning MUs are against top tiers (). Maybe it's because I've gotten too used to players who clearly overrate their characters' MUs, but this feels like too much of a step in the other direction, and it borderline feels reminiscent of Samsora's MU chart (who also listed 20+ losing MUs for his main).

I don't even have much of a problem with Doc being a slight lose for Pac-Man (although Mario being even does come off as weird), but losing MUs like all feel questionable given his record against each of them, especially Shulk's and Peach's considering that Tea's only lost to Kome once in the six sets they played, and Tea 3-0'd Samsora the last time they fought.

 

[StrangeKitten]

I mean, a winning MU vs is a big deal. I can understand why and are losing, at least in theory. Both have big disjoints with a lot of kill power. has Monado Arts and has projectiles.

I'm also not sure if yellow means losing, or losing/even, because like I said, I can't read Japanese. I could be wrong about these, but I would think wins vs , , , and . I would think goes even with and . Other characters, I'm not so sure on. But I don't play and have not watched that many sets featuring him on YouTube. So take my opinion with a big grain of salt

 

[DougEfresh]

I mean, a winning MU vs is a big deal. I can understand why and are losing, at least in theory. Both have big disjoints with a lot of kill power. has Monado Arts and has projectiles.

I'm also not sure if yellow means losing, or losing/even, because like I said, I can't read Japanese. I could be wrong about these, but I would think wins vs , , , and . I would think goes even with and . Other characters, I'm not so sure on. But I don't play and have not watched that many sets featuring him on YouTube. So take my opinion with a big grain of salt

I actually agree with Lucario slightly winning the match up against Pac. While he has to scrap a bit in the beginning (where pac's frame data with his boxing tools is an advantage), he lacks range, is floaty and has rather mediocre mobility. I've practiced the MU quite a bit and I think if we capitalize on our mobility, baiting and spacing, we can exploit his lacking range and slight struggle to land (aside from dropping hydrant directly below him) to rack up damage. doesn't mind the slow game 's gameplan frequently calls for (in fact, he should embrace it), since it allows us to live for quite a while (playing patiently enough, I regularly lived to 170+ each stock against him when I practiced the MU a lot a few months back). With pac-man, it's all about being very attentive to the traps and shenanigans he's capable of with bonus fruit, hydrant and/or trampoline. It takes time to figure out and you always have to be aware of his tricks and respect them, but Lucario can make it hard if he's willing to take it slow and rarely commit (especially when he has the stock lead).

Even though zoners in this game generally have strong boxing tools and fast frame data to do so, I feel like most of them require you to use a panic option or otherwise mess up big time to be oppressive to their opponents. They either still have a relative weakness in approaching compared to camping/walling out, or they have flaws elsewhere that make zoners pretty alright for in a lot of instances (even if it's annoying to get in at times).

 

[StrangeKitten]

's Double Team is also one of few counters that helps in getting in against projectiles. It's a tough counter to time, but I rarely play and time it more often than not, so should be doable for dedicated mains

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Not sure how out of the normal this opinion is, but IMO 's design is too wild that it doesn't feel right to rank him on a tier list.
He surely hasn't had the best success, although maybe it's only a matter of time till we see another Frostbite 2017...

But if anything, he achieved at being both the most underwhelming and overwhelming character in the game.

 

[DougEfresh]

's Double Team is also one of few counters that helps in getting in against projectiles. It's a tough counter to time, but I rarely play and time it more often than not, so should be doable for dedicated mains

It can help, but the active frames are only between 5 and 24 and it has 70 total frames so it's a very laggy option if your timing is off by even a little bit. It's good for mix ups and calling out autopiloting with projectiles or untrue strings though, and teleporting behind the opponent usually helps avoid any hitlag from double team hitting a projectile that makes it easier for the opponent to react to.

Not sure how out of the normal this opinion is, but IMO 's design is too wild that it doesn't feel right to rank him on a tier list.
He surely hasn't had the best success, although maybe it's only a matter of time till we see another Frostbite 2017...

But if anything, he achieved at being both the most underwhelming and overwhelming character in the game.

The way I look at it in his current state, he exemplifies what it is to be a solid mid tier in this game. Has x factor with aura and good mobility that can make it a bit harder to close out Lucario's stocks as early as everyone thinks is the case, but his frame data (especially grounded options) is more on par with than , which is bad since Lucario is really a brawler character at heart despite having aura sphere as a projectile (which is slow, low damage and low priority, so it's better as a bait tool and movement resource, but can still be good to throw out from time to time as a zoning option). The movement with is very technical if you use all of his options and he can ledge trap and edgeguard well, but it's all very hard to put together and execute well on his strengths consistently while also minding the weaknesses he has and working around those (lacking OOS, range, etc).

Give him somewhat faster tilts (especially ftilt), a functional command grab that doesn't whiff point blank on shield or have an atrocious launch angle (usually sends at about an angle of 60 degrees currently; perfect for opponents to DI the move from the top corners of the blastzones and still live even at high percents), make up smash functional (give it an actual scoop hitbox!), and fix damn near everything about aura sphere (reduced start up frames and cool down when throwing and releasing the projectile, increased hitstun of the charging hitbox to improve the consistency of confirms, larger hitbox size at full charge and faster travel speed) and he'll be pretty much fine. It might sound like a lot of fixes and buffs, but I really doubt they'll make him rise tremendously on tier lists, though it would be enough of a boost to make him more viable and feel like the effort is more worthwhile.

For what it's worth, if you're interested in hearing about opinions on from several of the character mains themselves, lilDan596 just released a yt video on his channel of answers to a Twitter poll he did asking players like Jeda and Vivi where they think he actually stands in the meta, his position on tier lists, match up spread, fixes he needs, etc. I personally found it very interesting since I actually hadn't heard a lot of in-depth thoughts from the players themselves about him before.

 

[Xfire]

Remember the guy who analyzed over 1 Million matches recorded on Smash.gg 2 months ago? He made an update after he found a bug on the script, so the matchup ratios are a bit lopsided now:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

Not much time to post my thoughts, but it's pretty interesting that now Snake and ROB have high overall win rates compared to last time

 

[Nobie]

Mega Man has a 56.99% win rate against Simon but a 39.02% win rate against Richter. How would we go about finding the "true" number here?

 

[Space thing]

Mega Man has a 56.99% win rate against Simon but a 39.02% win rate against Richter. How would we go about finding the "true" number here?

I would assume you would look at the direct games/wins count and just add them up then redo the wins/total games calc. Doing so gives Mega Man a 44.63% win rate. Granted this is out of only 300 ish games, which isn't a terribly large sample size for this kind of thing so keep that in mind.

 

[Das Koopa]

popping in to say that i'm glad ultimate has nothing even remotely close to a 2015 Sheik. literally no idea how Wii U survived 2015 lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

popping in to say that i'm glad ultimate has nothing even remotely close to a 2015 Sheik. literally no idea how Wii U survived 2015 lol

And yet that was considered the peak of competitive Sm4sh...

 

[|RK|]

It's funny that I see ESAM's tweet about how he might start believing in Kirby just as I see people in this thread talking about how Kirby wasn't buffed properly.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://twitter.com/L4st_SSB/status/1299101360533639168

Might be of some interest. MkLeo doing quite well online lately. Cosmos getting 3rd with solo Corrin. Sharp showing up as a strong player and also showing that Sheik online is still solid. Lui$ doing the same with Fox.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It's funny that I see ESAM's tweet about how he might start believing in Kirby just as I see people in this thread talking about how Kirby wasn't buffed properly.

I'm very optimistic about Kirby. He has a small hurtbox with a low crouch, very good combo game, powerful KO moves, and great edgeguarding. Not top tier, probably still not high tier, but one of the worst in the game? I don't think so, personally

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And yet that was considered the peak of competitive Sm4sh...

That brings up an interesting point about the history of Smash 4. I mean what was worse or more "toxic" in competive play?
The likes of pre-patched Diddy and Sheik in the first half of the games lifespan or Bayo and Cloud in the later period? Since Sheik and Diddy were patched before the DLC started their regon, we won't know who would be worse since we could never see such matchups

Heck imagine if Bayo did not patched at all. It wasn until well after that patch until she was either winning and/or getting multiple top 8 placings in almost every major

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://twitter.com/L4st_SSB/status/1299101360533639168

Might be of some interest. MkLeo doing quite well online lately. Cosmos getting 3rd with solo Corrin. Sharp showing up as a strong player and also showing that Sheik online is still solid. Lui$ doing the same with Fox.

Sharp has lately started using more and more of his other characters in tournaments than his Sheik. This tournament was an example, as he completed it with Diddy and Cloud, which is funny since I didn't know he had a Diddy and Cloud.

It seems that MkLeo used a mix of , with a hint of , throughout the bracket.
However, most of his major wins was conducted with Byleth.
MkLeo 2-1 Tweek (Winner's Quarterfinals)
MkLeo 3-0 Cosmos (Winner's Finals)
MkLeo 3-0 Tweek (Grand Finals)

His Byleth has been performing very well lately in online tournaments.
Now we don't know if this is simply online boosted, like with the characters affected by 8.0, but he did see instances of success with the Byleth prior to quarantine, so I am interested to see how this develops.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Offline Japanese Invitational happened, Hikaru's DK won

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com

 

[blackghost]

Sharp has lately started using more and more of his other characters in tournaments than his Sheik. This tournament was an example, as he completed it with Diddy and Cloud, which is funny since I didn't know he had a Diddy and Cloud.

It seems that MkLeo used a mix of , with a hint of , throughout the bracket.
However, most of his major wins was conducted with Byleth.
MkLeo 2-1 Tweek (Winner's Quarterfinals)
MkLeo 3-0 Cosmos (Winner's Finals)
MkLeo 3-0 Tweek (Grand Finals)

His Byleth has been performing very well lately in online tournaments.
Now we don't know if this is simply online boosted, like with the characters affected by 8.0, but he did see instances of success with the Byleth prior to quarantine, so I am interested to see how this develops.

without offline peach play to deal with leo is running wild. leo's fundemental spacing and execution with byleth makes the character look entirely different

And yet that was considered the peak of competitive Sm4sh...

only because the people that used those characters insisted that was the truth.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

New Ryu/Ken tech, Ryu and Ken have some new tech allowing Focus Attack to be unpunishable on shield, and can beat out some of the best OOS options in the game including anything Frame 3 such as Mr Game and Watch's Up-B if spaced correctly.

 

[Emblem Lord]

New Ryu/Ken tech, Ryu and Ken have some new tech allowing Focus Attack to be unpunishable on shield, and can beat out some of the best OOS options in the game including anything Frame 3 such as Mr Game and Watch's Up-B if spaced correctly.

This will murder all mid level players. Vs high level players you need to create situations. Namely after missed tech.

If you try it in neutral raw, the opponent can easily move away.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Remember that tweet that was posted a while back about G&W's 2-frame crouch?

Utilizing crouch after a landing aerial can allow for Kirby to punish even the pancake master himself! Fair (and Nair due to its better safety) with a buffered crouch can allow Kirby to pancake Pika's common aerials used OoS while allowing a free punish!#SSBU_Kirby pic.twitter.com/rkjmkiiKvR

— SK (@DatDereKirby) September 1, 2020

Did you know that Kirby can crouch frame 1 w/o using Dtilt?

Kirbys Fair and Nair have pancaking properties. The landing lag will seamlessly turn into his crouch, meaning Kirby will be able to avoid attacks as soon as he lands.

A stronger alternative to spotdodge.#SSBU_KIRBY pic.twitter.com/2gPFmlRfdQ

— Phan7om (@Phan777om) August 24, 2020

It turns out Kirby's FAir/NAir landing animations allow him to pancake as soon as frame ONE, which allows him to avoid most moves, including several aerial OoS options like Pika's NAir.

 

[TennisBall]

Remember that tweet that was posted a while back about G&W's 2-frame crouch?

Utilizing crouch after a landing aerial can allow for Kirby to punish even the pancake master himself! Fair (and Nair due to its better safety) with a buffered crouch can allow Kirby to pancake Pika's common aerials used OoS while allowing a free punish!#SSBU_Kirby pic.twitter.com/rkjmkiiKvR

— SK (@DatDereKirby) September 1, 2020

Did you know that Kirby can crouch frame 1 w/o using Dtilt?

Kirbys Fair and Nair have pancaking properties. The landing lag will seamlessly turn into his crouch, meaning Kirby will be able to avoid attacks as soon as he lands.

A stronger alternative to spotdodge.#SSBU_KIRBY pic.twitter.com/2gPFmlRfdQ

— Phan7om (@Phan777om) August 24, 2020

It turns out Kirby's FAir/NAir landing animations allow him to pancake as soon as frame ONE, which allows him to avoid most moves, including several aerial OoS options like Pika's NAir.

This could be huge as it demands more respect from some characters on shield, giving Kirby more room to push his advantage, which is always good considering it puts off his bad disadvantage and can lead to his decent combos and surprisingly decent killpower.

I hope to see a lot more from Kirby in the future now that he finally has a chance to be at the very least "ok".

 

[StrangeKitten]

I hope to see a lot more from Kirby in the future now that he finally has a chance to be at the very least "ok".

Same. I think he's finally shaping up to be a decent character. Not great but, I'm having trouble buying bottom of the barrel now

 

[The_Bookworm]

Remember that tweet that was posted a while back about G&W's 2-frame crouch?

Utilizing crouch after a landing aerial can allow for Kirby to punish even the pancake master himself! Fair (and Nair due to its better safety) with a buffered crouch can allow Kirby to pancake Pika's common aerials used OoS while allowing a free punish!#SSBU_Kirby pic.twitter.com/rkjmkiiKvR

— SK (@DatDereKirby) September 1, 2020

Did you know that Kirby can crouch frame 1 w/o using Dtilt?

Kirbys Fair and Nair have pancaking properties. The landing lag will seamlessly turn into his crouch, meaning Kirby will be able to avoid attacks as soon as he lands.

A stronger alternative to spotdodge.#SSBU_KIRBY pic.twitter.com/2gPFmlRfdQ

— Phan7om (@Phan777om) August 24, 2020

It turns out Kirby's FAir/NAir landing animations allow him to pancake as soon as frame ONE, which allows him to avoid most moves, including several aerial OoS options like Pika's NAir.

has a similar tech to this as well. With transition animations, Game & Watch's crouch also comes out on frame 1 after an aerial.

Not sure if can do it too, especially since Puff's aerials generally has more landing lag, but it something to note.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Cosmos played a First to 10 versus VoiD's Pichu,

Spoiler

he had a solid 9-3 lead but VoiD won three in a row, 10-6 in the end to Cosmos.

He then fought VoiD's Sheik, which ended up

Spoiler

10-8 to VoiD.

Both Cosmos-Pichu and Cosmos-Sheik look fairly Even to me (you could make a case for Corrin winning vs Pichu and Sheik winning vs Corrin, I suppose). VoiD as a player is probably better with Sheik at this point, the games were

Spoiler

super close either way.

Both Cosmos and VoiD streamed the FT10s, so you could watch the VODs if you want to see them (until they're deleted, I suppose, one could hope they're uploaded to YouTube at some point).

I still think Corrin is top 20, but top 25 sounds very plausible as well. I think Pichu might be top 20 or top 25 as well still, possibly, the character dies really easily though, but when played well he's a real terror. Sheik looks pretty good, she also does well vs Corrin and Lucina (at least Even versus both). I don't know exactly how good Sheik is but top 25 or top 30 wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Not sure how creditable this video is, but found it interesting:

Can confirm that along with are worst MU's along with the all the 40-60 half the roster has on him.

I wish I was exaggerating.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Not sure how creditable this video is, but found it interesting:

Can confirm that along with are worst MU's along with the all the 40-60 half the roster has on him.

I wish I was exaggerating.

Not sure why he thinks that Zelda's worst MU is Greninja.
It's by any means not even but there's one character that avoid her tools much better than the frog and that's Flip-Kick (which is its own character).

 

[NotLiquid]

I remember saying back in summer that Min Min looked like a character Dabuz would play. Fast forward to today, Dabuz manages to place third in Juice Box #11 going solo Min Min. Some of the more notable set wins he got was against Raffi-X and Chag. He also had a set win against Sharp, which particularly highlighted a few of the struggles Wolf needs to deal with that evens out the MU, though Sharp would later run the set back with Sheik in a pretty devastating fashion for second place. Dabuz feels Sheik is the hardest MU he's had to deal with so far with the character.

Some other surprise placings were Sonix going out at 17th in bracket, losing to Quidd (a Pokémon Trainer player who went on to place 5th) and Benny&TheJets. BestNess also narrowly missed out on another losers run thanks to the aforementioned Sharp keeping him out of top 8.

 

[boysilver400]

Worst mu definitely isn’t . It’s a difficult matchup for sure but he has several worse.

Is easily his worst mu and are up there as well.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Part 2:

I personally would have picked or for 's worst MU.
But works too.

 

[SwagGuy99]

Not sure how creditable this video is, but found it interesting:

Can confirm that along with are worst MU's along with the all the 40-60 half the roster has on him.

I wish I was exaggerating.

I can double confirm that is indeed Dr. Mario's worst matchup.

However, I don't think he goes 40:60 with half of the roster, that's a big exaggeration tbh. I firmly believe that Dr. Mario does not have very many -2 matchups, but I'll give my thoughts on who I personally think Doc's worst matchups are (tiers aren't ordered).

Hard -1 matchups (potentially -2):

-2 matchups:

-3 matchups:

There is a common theme among almost every character who is -2 or worse: good mobility and large disjoints. These characters are extremely good at walling Doc out with their disjoints and they can also use to swat away pills, which prevents Doc from being able to approach a lot of the time. Also, the speed that most of these characters have make them extremely good at camping Doc by just running away. Finally, all of these characters are really good at keeping Doc in disadvantage. Doc has good combo breakers and landing options in theory, but despite him having fast options to combo break or land with, they have poor range, so characters with disjoints are naturally better at keeping him in disadvantage than characters without.

Something I'd also like to touch on is the matchups that I think Doc does fine in against relevant characters, because there seems to be a misconception about Dr. Mario that he doesn't do very well against too many good characters when there are several he does fine against in my opinion.

True Even or Slightly Winning:

Hard Even or Slightly Losing:

Characters with poor disadvantage states or linear approach options will often struggle against Dr. Mario and find themselves taking 50% to 60% off of one bad interaction. Despite Doc's poor ability to deal with fast characters who use their superior speed to camp him, Doc is able to deal with projectile campers well with cape and pills. Also, characters who want to play up-close will also struggle against Doc because his CQC options are among the best in the game which means that if the opponent wants to play up-close, they risk being hit by moves that deal more damage than options faster than frame 10 usually do. Some of these matchups are volatile for both sides like and and strong arguments can be made for Doc going even or Doc losing to them, but they're still worth mentioning.

 

[Firox]

Part 2:

I personally would have picked or for 's worst MU.
But works too.

I'm actually going to have to call BS on being 's worst MU. The points being made that Snake can out-camp Greninja and that Gren can't juggle him are very exaggerated. Firstly, shuriken can outcamp grenades any day as long as the Gren is skilled enough throw them midair and/or mix up the charging upon landing. Granted, stage plays a big factor, but it's not a black-and-white disadvantage for Gren. As for the juggling, Gren's vertical hurtbox during up air is deceptively thin and it's possible to drag Snake away from the Z-drop hitbox. Also, Gren's incredible mobility not only allows him to play around all of Snake's spam tools, but also allows for some pretty brutal off-stage punishes for Snake's Cypher since many Snakes like to recover high....right into the perfect range for full hop Fair.

In short, challenging? Absolutely. But impossible feat? Not even close. I personally find , and to be a lot tougher MUs.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

However, I don't think he goes 40:60 with half of the roster, that's a big exaggeration tbh. I firmly believe that Dr. Mario does not have very many -2 matchups, but I'll give my thoughts on who I personally think Doc's worst matchups are (tiers aren't ordered).

I wish I was exaggerating and I've already explained why this character struggles in the long run.

To keep it simple, he's an all-arounder that's below average in most important categories. The few areas he's pretty good in (just pretty good, not great) are more revolved around taking risks (which his poor recovery and lack of burst options do not support), feeding off of the opponent's MU inexperience and/or mistakes to win a set rather forcing the opponent to deal with his good options and/or conditioning them to make incorrect moves like many other characters can do.
That's not even mentioning if the opponent decides to pull a and play the evasion game.

I don't have the time or the patience to explain why each MU is so bad individually (most of them just come from a lack of mobility and recovery anyway), but this covers it well enough.

 

[DougEfresh]

Part 2:

Gotta disagree with the take that is 's worst match up. It is one of his more difficult ones (and he is right that usmash at ledge is a big part of that difficulty), but besides that, the MU isn't too bad and I wouldn't even list it in his top 10 worst MUs. Neutral is fine if we stay more grounded and don't overcommit in the air and/or use up our resources too quickly (this is how nair trains and uair juggles happen), plus we can play more conservatively with aura sphere to play around the reflector and get grabs or FPG if they're antsy about using that. And it is possible to 2-frame her teleport recovery with dair, aura sphere at higher percents and down-angled ftilt, it just has to be well timed (which is just a matter of practice).

/ can also be pretty rough, but also think there are a handful of others worse ( and come to mind at the very least). At least with fox, we have some disjoints that can help to wall him out somewhat, and he is light enough that nearly every hit of ours can lead to a precarious situation for him. Getting him off-stage is the key, and optimizing Banjo's ledge trapping and many 2-framing options is crucial for managing the MU effectively since it can very quickly go south if we let live too long. Landing out of disadvantage is tough, but having a 3rd jump, a good airdodge, and stalls with grenades can help us mix up our options a bit to avoid getting bullied constantly (it's also good that Banjo is pretty heavy as well, so he can take damage that many other characters can't before their stocks are gone).

 

[StrangeKitten]

I find to be worse than for Ike. Idk, I practice with CPUs since I don't have a working TV to use a LAN adapter with. So maybe level 9 Roy isn't that good or something, but Simon and Richter feel much worse to face. Ike's poor mobility just feels so bad against them. Trying to approach from the air? They can axe, or dash back and whip/cross/holy water. Trying to stay grounded? They can whip/cross/holy water/down tilt/dash attack/nair. It feels so difficult to weave around their projectiles as Ike. Meanwhile, Ike outranges Roy. I wouldn't list Roy as a good matchup for Ike but his worst? I'm doubtful on that.
, , , , and likewise have similarly good projectile games and strong enough traits in CQC/killing that I'd probably also consider them more difficult than Roy. Ike handles projectiles better than some other characters, but they're still rough for him imo.