Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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DougEfresh

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As someone who plays both characters, I can say that :ultgreninja: has more consistent kill power and kill confirms online than :ultjoker: does. Arsene definitely helps Joker when it's up, but he suffers from Shiek syndrome pretty badly when it's not. You'd be surprised how much easier it is to kill with the frog off of a stray Fair, Nair or Ditlt than it is to get reads with Joker. Plus, the two characters play similarly enough that any precision from Joker's play translates nicely to Greninja as well.
Interesting perspective, hadn't really thought about it that way before. Maybe I personally struggle more with avoiding stray hits from :ultjoker: at kill percents more than I do with :ultgreninja:. With the frog, I feel like avoiding dtilt/dash attack into fair/upsmash until I get out of those confirm percents is most of the battle to fighting against him and that hasn't been too hard to do (with stray fairs, uair juggles and dragdown jab locks and tech chases being the other main things to look out for), whereas arsene-less Joker can win neutral and still go deep for edgeguards or opt to ledge trap reasonably well by a skilled player even online from my experience. He definitely struggles more with killing without Arsene, although I haven't experienced it being so severe as to equate it to sheik syndrome.

And yea, I totally understand why Leo would pick up a character like him for the reasons you and I appear to agree on. Leo is Leo, so he is still able to pull it off, but him not playing :ultjoker: online when :ultgreninja: requires similar precision that generally isn't realistic to have online was intriguing to me.
 
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TennisBall

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Interesting perspective, hadn't really thought about it that way before. Maybe I personally struggle more with avoiding stray hits from :ultjoker: at kill percents more than I do with :ultgreninja:. With the frog, I feel like avoiding dtilt/dash attack into fair/upsmash until I get out of those confirm percents is most of the battle to fighting against him and that hasn't been too hard to do (with stray fairs, uair juggles and dragdown jab locks and tech chases being the other main things to look out for), whereas arsene-less Joker can win neutral and still go deep for edgeguards or opt to ledge trap reasonably well by a skilled player even online from my experience. He definitely struggles more with killing without Arsene, although I haven't experienced it being so severe as to equate it to sheik syndrome.

And yea, I totally understand why Leo would pick up a character like him for the reasons you and I appear to agree on. Leo is Leo, so he is still able to pull it off, but him not playing :ultjoker: online when :ultgreninja: requires similar precision that generally isn't realistic to have online was intriguing to me.
I have heard that he doesn't play Joker due to the fact that in order to play Joker online, he would have to "ruin" his currently offline Joker in order for it to do well Online and has decided in favor of Byleth, Greninja, and other characters over him during these wifi events.
 

Firox

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Interesting perspective, hadn't really thought about it that way before. Maybe I personally struggle more with avoiding stray hits from :ultjoker: at kill percents more than I do with :ultgreninja:. With the frog, I feel like avoiding dtilt/dash attack into fair/upsmash until I get out of those confirm percents is most of the battle to fighting against him and that hasn't been too hard to do (with stray fairs, uair juggles and dragdown jab locks and tech chases being the other main things to look out for), whereas arsene-less Joker can win neutral and still go deep for edgeguards or opt to ledge trap reasonably well by a skilled player even online from my experience. He definitely struggles more with killing without Arsene, although I haven't experienced it being so severe as to equate it to sheik syndrome.

And yea, I totally understand why Leo would pick up a character like him for the reasons you and I appear to agree on. Leo is Leo, so he is still able to pull it off, but him not playing :ultjoker: online when :ultgreninja: requires similar precision that generally isn't realistic to have online was intriguing to me.
Couple of things to add to your comments:

1) Many people underestimate :ultgreninja:'s ability to go even deeper than :ultjoker: for edgeguards. While Gren has many predictable kill confirms on-stage, I'd estimate that about 25% of my kills come from stage spikes, high Fairs or double RAR Bairs offstage, the later two being confirmable from dash attack at the right percents. Gren can also use Substitute to spike characters offstage whose recovery features a hitbox (Bowser, DK, Link, Krool, etc. are huge fodder for this). Substitute can kill around 50% when angled down at the ledge (obviously only use for last stock since it'll kill Gren too) or at about 110% when angled up at the ledge (used any time OTHER than the last stock).

2) While many of :ultgreninja:'s moves require a sometimes painful amount of precision, many of its hitboxes are much more forgiving than :ultjoker:'s. Fair, Bair, Nair, Up smash and Up tilt are some good examples of this. Despite the inherent lag, these moves feel easier for me to land consistently online.

3) Nair is arguably one of :ultgreninja:'s safest moves and can convert into a multitude of confirms at almost any percent over 80%. I've watched Leo use sour Nair into Fair more times than I can count. Without Arsene, :ultjoker:'s ONLY major kill options are smash reads or deep edgeguards unless the opponent is over 150%. At that point, you can start using back throw, Bair, etc. but that's what I mean by "shiek syndrome". More work, less reward. It's not that Joker can't work, it's just that Leo might see Gren as more efficient and less demanding of constant precision. (I would say Joker is a more precise character than Gren which holds him back when factoring in online lag.)

Final Point) As a personal observation, I believe :ultgreninja: to be a winning MU against :ultjoker:, especially online. That's not to say that Gren is a better character overall,, but his mobility and evasion negate the advantages of Arsene by stalling and poking him out, then beating out Arsene-less Joker with superior range and kill power. Couple this with the fact that far fewer people know the Gren MU as well as the Joker one, Leo must see that as an advantage. Either way, I'm just overjoyed to see what he can do with the frog. I just hope he doesn't get the poor guy nerfed because of his own inherent brokeness as a player. Just because he's Leo doesn't mean the frog should pay the price. :ultgreninja: really isn't broke by any stretch of the imagination.

I have heard that he doesn't play Joker due to the fact that in order to play Joker online, he would have to "ruin" his currently offline Joker in order for it to do well Online and has decided in favor of Byleth, Greninja, and other characters over him during these wifi events.
Actually, this makes a lot more sense. lol This is probably the real reason why he's been playing Greninja.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Naskino (best Zelda in Europe) put out a Zelda MU chart for 8.0.0:


Very solid.
Some stuff I'd change like Villager, PT, Pika or Mario but to be fair, 0,5 is very close to even for the last two characters.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Naskino (best Zelda in Europe) put out a Zelda MU chart for 8.0.0:


Very solid.
Some stuff I'd change like Villager, PT, Pika or Mario but to be fair, 0,5 is very close to even for the last two characters.
Seems like a matchup chart that screams "mid tier", which to be fair, I do think that is where Zelda is.

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Now here is a video worth looking at:

The Bounce Glitch has been a thing, and known, ever since :ultkrool: first came out, with :ultbanjokazooie: also suffering from this glitch as well.
However, for a long time, many has considered this glitch to be rather random. It is up until recently, that we now have a rough reasoning on why this occurs.

The gist of it is: because on how high the trans-bone on their models are when performing a down throw, there are instances on slopes and platforms, that varies from character to character, where the opponent bounces upwards instead of getting buried.

Banjo could theoretically use up air juggles if this glitch occurs, but it is too inconsistent and generally too niche to be more helpful than detrimental.
K. Rool is really hurt by this, as the character has no frame advantage with his Bounce Glitch. As a result, many characters could sometimes simply hit him out of getting bounced, such as Ganondorf's falling neutral air. Now most players are probably still going to mash out, and K. Rool could frame trap them for it. However, in most situations, it is going to be a neutral reset at best, given the opponent's reaction times.

K. Rool got buffed multiple times through the game's lifespan, but this issue still remains untouched.
Granted that it is up until now that we finally understand how it works.
 

The_Bookworm

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New tech, the instant Double Jump which can be performed by any character.
Pretty spicy tech overall.
I think every character has at least one useful use of this tech. :ultchrom: and :ultfalcon: looks particularly spicy with this tech.

:ultjigglypuff: is so close to being another big benefactor of this tech, but there seems to be a lot of inconsistencies in using this tech for the character, as it is very prediction reliant.
Then again, a lot Puff's character involves making reads to secure KOs, so maybe Puff players can find some use of this.
 

stixie

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Seems like a matchup chart that screams "mid tier", which to be fair, I do think that is where Zelda is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now here is a video worth looking at:

The Bounce Glitch has been a thing, and known, ever since :ultkrool: first came out, with :ultbanjokazooie: also suffering from this glitch as well.
However, for a long time, many has considered this glitch to be rather random. It is up until recently, that we now have a rough reasoning on why this occurs.

The gist of it is: because on how high the trans-bone on their models are when performing a down throw, there are instances on slopes and platforms, that varies from character to character, where the opponent bounces upwards instead of getting buried.

Banjo could theoretically use up air juggles if this glitch occurs, but it is too inconsistent and generally too niche to be more helpful than detrimental.
K. Rool is really hurt by this, as the character has no frame advantage with his Bounce Glitch. As a result, many characters could sometimes simply hit him out of getting bounced, such as Ganondorf's falling neutral air. Now most players are probably still going to mash out, and K. Rool could frame trap them for it. However, in most situations, it is going to be a neutral reset at best, given the opponent's reaction times.

K. Rool got buffed multiple times through the game's lifespan, but this issue still remains untouched.
Granted that it is up until now that we finally understand how it works.
I'm curious where you'd put her. Personally I think she's high tier honestly. She incinerates a LOT of the cast. She has 2-3 really bad matchups (like Sonic and ZSS) but most matchups (imo) are even or her wiping them out.

Naskino (best Zelda in Europe) put out a Zelda MU chart for 8.0.0:


Very solid.
Some stuff I'd change like Villager, PT, Pika or Mario but to be fair, 0,5 is very close to even for the last two characters.
You think this matchup spread is right?
 

The_Bookworm

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I'm curious where you'd put her. Personally I think she's high tier honestly. She incinerates a LOT of the cast. She has 2-3 really bad matchups (like Sonic and ZSS) but most matchups (imo) are even or her wiping them out.
I think you kind of answered your own question.
She does have some matchups that she does have quite a bit of issues in, while conversely having some pretty good matchups as well. Her matchups are overall very average, which is also reflected in her overall results being about average.
 

Rizen

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Great watch and advices.
Very recommended to watch.
That was a great video on fighting :ultsonic: but they left out something very important: Take him to small stages. With Sonic's, by far, best run speed in the game and amazing mobility he can wiff punish you from anywhere. He controls large stages better than :ultyounglink:, better than anyone. One time I fought a good Sonic in a tournament. I barely beat him with YL on PS2, he CPed Kalos and solidly beat me so I CPed BF and swapped to Link, who is much better on BF than YL due to his big sword, and 2 stocked him. Stage picking is immensely important in this MU. In retrospect, I should have staged striked and ended up on SV rather than gentlemen to PS2 to start.
 

DougEfresh

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That was a great video on fighting :ultsonic: but they left out something very important: Take him to small stages. With Sonic's, by far, best run speed in the game and amazing mobility he can wiff punish you from anywhere. He controls large stages better than :ultyounglink:, better than anyone. One time I fought a good Sonic in a tournament. I barely beat him with YL on PS2, he CPed Kalos and solidly beat me so I CPed BF and swapped to Link, who is much better on BF than YL due to his big sword, and 2 stocked him. Stage picking is immensely important in this MU. In retrospect, I should have staged striked and ended up on SV rather than gentlemen to PS2 to start.
In general, I completely agree with you on this. Sonic's time out strategy does work much better on larger stages compared to smaller ones, but that being said, :ultlucario: is a scarce exception to this rule.

Lucario's best stage by far is Kalos due to the huge blastzones, walls to jump off from and cling to and side platforms for recovery mix ups, and a wide stage to help him use his own very good mobility to hold on to stocks longer and camp as needed. The keenness of both characters toward Kalos (and arguably TnC as well) makes it a mentally taxing match up that is largely dictated by who takes the first stock, since :ultlucario: and :ultsonic: need to commit fairly hard against each other to make much happen to rack up damage and especially to kill (plus they have a stronger defensive/camping game relative to their offensive/approaching options).

Anyone who actually knows the Lucario MU should insta-ban Kalos if they know what's good for them, but since that generally is going to be less likely to happen with Sonic, I'll gladly keep it open to let either of us CP to. Smashville is never worth going to in any match up for Lucario imo, since the small stage space and central platform limit his movement options to avoid onslaughts of aggression and whiff punishes, and the ledges expose him even more to 2-frames than usual (which is a big liability against :ultsonic: with his big fsmash that 2-frames very well, not to mention SV's small blastzones more generally making it much harder to maintain aura). Town gives us a similar susceptibility to getting 2-framed, but at least we benefit from the wide stage layout, which counts for a lot. I'd ban SV and most likely FD against Sonic, since they're both rather cramped and he can catch our attempts at landing especially well on FD (Town would be my alternate ban against a :ultsonic: who may be particularly consistent with 2-framing). Anyway, just thought I'd share my two cents on that.
 
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Lacrimosa

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I'm curious where you'd put her. Personally I think she's high tier honestly. She incinerates a LOT of the cast. She has 2-3 really bad matchups (like Sonic and ZSS) but most matchups (imo) are even or her wiping them out.



You think this matchup spread is right?
I could write a whole paragraph here but I feel like I'm getting lost within it, so I rather keep it short:
Yes, I think this spread reflects reality really well.
I know that some mains of other chars think differently: Larry Lurr puts Zelda in even for Falco for example, Esam with Pikachu
The same can be said for other players but in reverse: Tweek put Wario as winning which, for me, is completely mind-boggling.
So, there could be same variance but it should be very little

There are always some matchups I disagree with. In this case it'd be only the losing matchups, though. I think the winning matchups are pretty much that, maybe you can move a character in even up to +0,5.
There are also characters that profit from the Zelda player not using the Phantom correctly: Pikachu, Falco, YL, TL, Diddy, Robin, perhaps Mario and Villager all like that because they can just hit her out of the charging with projectiles but again, the Phantom can block that.
It's quite funny that a Peach-main (Meru) is the only Zelda player that can pull that tech off consistently and it helps a lot when you look at his sets where he uses Zelda, so it's not a useless tech because there are sets where this is used to success.

But just imagine it: Pikachu likes T-Jolt pressure. Pikachu simply can't do that when the Phantom is charged up so the Pikachu player has to find a different approach option because of that problem. Quick attacking can help but Zelda can always release the Phantom early and hit Pika while doing the upB on-stage. It's a bit of chess where you have to foresee what the opponent wants to do and think one step further.
This favors Zelda in this MU but even more in other MUs where the opponents relies on projectiles and they can't break through the Phantom like Pikachu with Quick Attack can.
I can see that most projectile-based MUs are at worst even for her. There are always different approach options for these characters, though. Most of them have very disjointed zairs so you can't just sit back and click downB and neutralB mindlessly. Samus, but also more, have still a lot of options.
I don't know how MegaMan works but I recall that Metal Blade, maybe even more stuff, goes through the Phantom, which makes this option really useless so I can see him being a bad MU but I don't think there's one character worse than -1 except one.

I think ZSS is by far the worst character for her, though: Ignores her best tool in Phantom completely and is therefore maybe the only "impossible" match-up at the highest level (and Marss knows the match-up really well on top). ZSS is the only character that forces Zelda to not play the game she wants and Phantom is a big part of that play.

And it got longer than I intended it to be because I lost track when I first attempted a reply. Hope this is a bit better sorted now.
 
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blackghost

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zelda is a character that benefits the most from the online-only/ mostly environment. i dont think shes anything above a mid. i also wouldlike some clarification on some of these matchups?
even vs hero?
beating corrin and min min?
barely losing to game and watch?
 

The_Bookworm

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zelda is a character that benefits the most from the online-only/ mostly environment.
She only really benefits from online in lower-levels play. In higher levels of play, she is about the same as offline in terms of viability.

even vs hero?
beating corrin and min min?
barely losing to game and watch?
As for the matchups (I am no Zelda expert, so this is just my observations):
:ulthero: She beats Hero in most cases, including having a reflector, and excellent ways to snipe Hero off of menu and in disadvantage. The main reason why it is even, as far as I can tell, is because Zelda is one of the few characters in the game that can have a tricky time contending against Hero's large, but sluggish aerials, due to her own awkward aerials, as well as Zapple being a bit tricky to deal with.
:ultcorrinf::ultminmin In both matchups, especially Corrin, they have troubles dealing with Phantom. Now the Min Min matchups is still very underdeveloped, so this one is likely going to change in the future.
:ultgnw: Bucket invalidates Zelda's neutral in most cases, although Zelda can easily KO Game & Watch in return. Not too sure this matchup plays, but that is what comes in mind.
 

StoicPhantom

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i also wouldlike some clarification on some of these matchups?
These:
:ulthero: She beats Hero in most cases, including having a reflector, and excellent ways to snipe Hero off of menu and in disadvantage. The main reason why it is even, as far as I can tell, is because Zelda is one of the few characters in the game that can have a tricky time contending against Hero's large, but sluggish aerials, due to her own awkward aerials, as well as Zapple being a bit tricky to deal with.
:ultcorrinf::ultminmin In both matchups, especially Corrin, they have troubles dealing with Phantom. Now the Min Min matchups is still very underdeveloped, so this one is likely going to change in the future.
are mostly accurate, though I wouldn't say Hero's aerials are especially difficult as it's more about punishing his landing than it is about attempting to match them with Zelda's aerials.

But,
:ultgnw: Bucket invalidates Zelda's neutral in most cases, although Zelda can easily KO Game & Watch in return. Not too sure this matchup plays, but that is what comes in mind.
is a bit of a misunderstanding. Barring Pocket, reflectors aren't really a good answer to Phantom in a lot of cases. Going for a reflector allows Zelda to get a full charge of which she can then utilize to punish your reflector by either Up-Bing into it or simply hopping over it and punishing the endlag. Higher level Phantom play involves these types of traps and mixups.


As far as that MU chart goes: I think he's overselling some of these MUs. I would personally put :ultfalcon::ultdk::ultincineroar::ultlink::ulthero::ultridley::ultdarksamus: as +1, :ultgnw::ultmario::ultpikachu::ultrosalina::ultyounglink::ultrobin::ultchrom::ultjoker::ultpokemontrainer: :ultsonic::ultgunner:as Even, :ultdiddy::ultpeach::ultyoshi::ultpalutena::ultbayonetta::ultfalco::ultcloud: as 0,5, and :ultshulk::ultisabelle: as -1.


My reasoning being something along the lines of
Zelda player not using the Phantom correctly:
and
It's quite funny that a Peach-main (Meru) is the only Zelda player that can pull that tech off consistently
for why she's still constantly lowballed.
 

Frihetsanka

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:ultcorrinf::ultminmin In both matchups, especially Corrin, they have troubles dealing with Phantom.
Counter Surge is surprisingly good versus Phantom, actually. One of the few good uses for Counter Surge in this game. Corrin probably slightly beats Zelda in this game, it's not +2 like in 4 but still probably slightly winning.

Zelda players have a tendency to overestimate her. Many Zelda mains in 4 thought she went even or slightly advantage versus Corrin, while Corrin mains generally thought it was +2.

Here's a clip (timestamped) of Cosmos vs Ven where Cosmos uses Counter Surge vs Phantom. Contains spoilers for the set: https://youtu.be/GGJyezd5ZDY?t=1028
 

StoicPhantom

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Here's a clip (timestamped) of Cosmos vs Ven where Cosmos uses Counter Surge vs Phantom.
That's more a case of ven having bad timing. Would be the same for almost any other counter and he could have avoided it.

I also don't know what Zelda mains thought she could beat Corrin in 4, but I don't know what that has to do with Ultimate. There wasn't anything in that set that really showed anything worse than even.
 

stixie

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zelda is a character that benefits the most from the online-only/ mostly environment. i dont think shes anything above a mid. i also wouldlike some clarification on some of these matchups?
even vs hero?
beating corrin and min min?
barely losing to game and watch?
Zelda does NOT benefit from online play. Not trying to be too critical here but you’re just repeating a meme that simply ISN’T true. If you’re at 1M gsp maybe since noobs get teleported into and killed but other than that... any character with tipper hitboxes is FAR worse online. Zelda’s fair, bair, dair, and ftilt all have tippers that are nearly impossible to time in lag. The only things Zelda has that are fine in lag are her teleport and phantom. Phantom is good online and offline (one of the best moves in the game imo) and teleport only works as an OOS option unless you’re playing against a noob.

Any serious Zelda main could tell you this.

Ok, to the matchups:

Hero: personally I despise this matchup. His hurtbox is REALLY difficult to fair/bair oos for some odd reason. What’s funny is you can teleport camp them as they’re reading their menu but most true hero mains are so quick with the menu it’s nearly impossible to do that.

Min min: Super easy barely an inconvenience LOL!! No but seriously I’ve never had any trouble with her. Din’s fire thrown from the air is really a pain for min min.

Corrin: tough matchup but most corrin players have some REALLY bad habits that all corrin players seem to have for some reason and even in elite Smash i don’t find this MU too difficult.

G&W: this matchup is kinda dumb. He dies at like 60 but he totally negates dins with bucket... it’s really obnoxious. Phantom is actually quite useful here because you can punish bucket attempts but dins is a complete no go which makes G&W a pain.
 
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Lacrimosa

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Zelda players have a tendency to overestimate her. Many Zelda mains in 4 thought she went even or slightly advantage versus Corrin, while Corrin mains generally thought it was +2.
If so then I wonder what Zelda mains you talked to.
I think she's a bottom 5 character in that game, if not worse.
 

Frihetsanka

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If so then I wonder what Zelda mains you talked to.
Oh, I meant to write "even or slightly disadvantage", not "even or slightly advantage". My bad. Ven is the most notable example, putting her in Even: https://twitter.com/venason_/status/900095080530190336

But it's not exactly a common matchup, both Zelda and Corrin were somewhat uncommon in 4 (and in Ultimate Corrin is even more uncommon). In theory it does seem like Corrin should have the edge in Ultimate as well, although it's probably no better than a slight advantage for Corrin.
 

Lacrimosa

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Oh, I meant to write "even or slightly disadvantage", not "even or slightly advantage". My bad. Ven is the most notable example, putting her in Even: https://twitter.com/venason_/status/900095080530190336

But it's not exactly a common matchup, both Zelda and Corrin were somewhat uncommon in 4 (and in Ultimate Corrin is even more uncommon). In theory it does seem like Corrin should have the edge in Ultimate as well, although it's probably no better than a slight advantage for Corrin.
Whelp, looks like Ven was really optimistic back then and he had some good sets but this seems rather delusional.
For Ultimate, he hasn't done a MU chart, yet.

I would still say that Corrin's speed both in the air and on the ground makes her approach options a lot more limited as compared to someone like Lucina who both sides think that it's closer to even.
I also did watch this set with Cosmos and it's very close, both players didn't really respect the other's options, like the range on that counter from Corrin. I'd like to see another set between them but that's very unlikely to happen.
But as you said, I agree it's pretty close, however I dare say if there is an advantage, it's for Zelda.


As for the GnW MU:
Set-wise, Ven lost to Maister with a solid 2-0 at one point. It was a Wi-Fi tournament but I can't recall which.
But I would like to re-phrase quik's (Samus player) statements surrounding the Bucket and its interactions with projectiles. It is something that has to be respected but a good projectile player knows how to get around that. Samus can do zairs or grounded grabs if the GnW is eager to use the Bucket. Meaning one has to condition the GnW player to rarely use the Bucket because you will get punished for that. However, it's still limiting for the projectile character because you obviously can't play the main gameplan like you can against most other characters. So, it's not as easy as it might seem at first but you can only close the gap so far.
Zelda's projectile has a benefit and the Phantom is delayed. If GnW goes for the bucket, he most likely can't hit you out of the charge. So you will probably get a full Phantom that sits there for some seconds (2 seconds if not released early?). It's just another reflector then and that can be punished. It'S like saying Zelda can't use Phantom against Fox. Fox has a very similar reflector: Lasts forever (I think) and keeps the using character stationary. You can exploit the last part by simply teleporting into GnW or Fox. So, it'S not safe to do that and it therefore doesn't affect her gameplan at all I would say.

What you can't do is using Din's Fire at edgeguarding against GnW and that's big because it's a non-committal edgeguarding tool. Pretty much identical to the Ness situation but Ness "only" heals and doesn't get a devastating attack against you.

GnW will combo Zelda pretty hard and I find it quite hard to punish GnW's actions with her because of the low endlag of the moves. Her speed really bites her in this MU and GnW has kill power, especially after racking up damage (unlike Pikachu who really struggles at killing her despite having great combo on her). Now, Zelda doesn't need to shield pressure GnW at all but it's quite hard to catch him. Her upAir beats the dAir of GnW but GnW probably won't do much jumping in this MU anyway if I had to guess.

So I agree it being a favorable MU for GnW but only slightly.
 
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DungeonMaster

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A lot of people on Samus discord are wondering WTF is the deal with the Instant Double Jump (IDJ) tech being described as "new".
Timestamped above, this is 4 year old tech for us.
I have literally been doing this for 4+ years to extend my combos.
Samus doesn't get any special dragdown extensions, and the specifics to Ultimate haven't been labbed out by other characters but just saying that this has been out there for a long while.
 
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Das Koopa

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NebulaMan
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OrionRank Top 200 for North America is out, for those interested in some NA-side character data
 
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$.A.F.

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
422
Location
The Plant Gang HQ

OrionRank Top 200 for North America is out, for those interested in some NA-side character data
Well I’m happy to see Myran starting to get back to where he was in early 2019. Speaking of which, where would everyone personally rank :ultolimar: as of 8.1.0? Personally I think he’s still anywhere from top 15-25 as he is but that’s just me. Speaking of top tiers supposedly killed in 3.1.0. :ultpichu: is easily one of the most represented characters in top 50 even more so than:ultpikachu:. Can we talk about that? I know results aren’t nearly everything, especially considering the region lock, but even globally, Pichu had been performing very well now for months on end pre pandemic.
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,676
Well I’m happy to see Myran starting to get back to where he was in early 2019. Speaking of which, where would everyone personally rank :ultolimar: as of 8.1.0? Personally I think he’s still anywhere from top 15-25 as he is but that’s just me. Speaking of top tiers supposedly killed in 3.1.0. :ultpichu: is easily one of the most represented characters in top 50 even more so than:ultpikachu:. Can we talk about that? I know results aren’t nearly everything, especially considering the region lock, but even globally, Pichu had been performing very well now for months on end pre pandemic.
This is all-time offline results, aka, from January 2019 to March 2020. The amount of Pichu and Olimar players there was bound to happen due to how prominent these two were the early meta.
 

blackghost

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
Messages
1,859
Zelda does NOT benefit from online play. Not trying to be too critical here but you’re just repeating a meme that simply ISN’T true. If you’re at 1M gsp maybe since noobs get teleported into and killed but other than that... any character with tipper hitboxes is FAR worse online. Zelda’s fair, bair, dair, and ftilt all have tippers that are nearly impossible to time in lag. The only things Zelda has that are fine in lag are her teleport and phantom. Phantom is good online and offline (one of the best moves in the game imo) and teleport only works as an OOS option unless you’re playing against a noob.

Any serious Zelda main could tell you this.

G&W: this matchup is kinda dumb. He dies at like 60 but he totally negates dins with bucket... it’s really obnoxious. Phantom is actually quite useful here because you can punish bucket attempts but dins is a complete no go which makes G&W a pain.
doesnt bucket reflect the knight? its treated as a projectile right.

in lag in my experience navigating zoning and traps is harder than setting them in lag.

i do think the zelda mains have a very positive outlook of thier character.its like the complete opposite of how my character's discord feels. lol.
 
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Joined
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User7a1
doesnt bucket reflect the knight? its treated as a projectile right.

in lag in my experience navigating zoning and traps is harder than setting them in lag.

i do think the zelda mains have a very positive outlook of thier character.its like the complete opposite of how my character's discord feels. lol.
Bucket can reflect Phantom, but much like Lacrimosa said (well, the point at least), Bucket can be worked around. Best use of a reflector (especially ones like Fox's and G&W's) against Zelda is more for the threat of "I can reflect this" rather than outright always reflecting it (so in this POV, the reflecting characters can bait out certain options from Zelda because they could reflect). Plus, one could always reflect at the moment of release, but it also has its pros and cons (might be worth depending on the situation, like knowing your reflector will break through Naryu's).
 
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stixie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
112
Bucket can reflect Phantom, but much like Lacrimosa said (well, the point at least), Bucket can be worked around. Best use of a reflector (especially one's like Fox's and G&W's) against Zelda is more for the threat of "I can reflect this" rather than outright always reflecting it (so in this POV, the reflecting characters can bait out certain options from Zelda because they could reflect). Plus, one could always reflect at the moment of release, but it also has its pros and cons (might be worth depending on the situation, like knowing your reflector will break through Naryu's).
This is exactly right. Reflectors are a mixup. If you try to reflect every single phantom Zelda is going to have a field day with you. There are so many things she can do to wreck people who spam reflect every time she phantoms. If you hold on to your reflect and just use it every once in a while then it makes the Zelda shy about using phantom. That's how you should do it.

If so then I wonder what Zelda mains you talked to.
I think she's a bottom 5 character in that game, if not worse.
Honestly I don't know what Zelda mains YOU'RE talking to LOL!!! I love the character. Does she need some help in certain departments? Sure... but any character that can kill you at 60% randomly isn't a bad character. She has a frame 4 jab, best ftilt in the game, one of the best moves (phantom) in the entire game, an upair that kills at like 80ish (weight dep), fair/bair, dair > up air confirms, some of the best ledge trapping in the game... I'm trying to figure out how she's a bottom 5??????????

So in the buffs department I think she needs a faster grab and downthrow needs to be a LOT harder to DI.
Next buff would be fixing nair to where it TRUE dragdown combos.

I think these are the only things she desperately needs.
 
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MrGameguycolor

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
1,116
Location
Somewhere in this Universe
NNID
MrGameguycolor
Switch FC
7681-9716-5789
Honestly I don't know what Zelda mains YOU'RE talking to LOL!!! I love the character. Does she need some help in certain departments?
That statement was relative to Sm4sh :4zelda:

Sure... but any character that can kill you at 60% randomly isn't a bad character.
:ultdoc::ultganondorf::ultlittlemac: do just that and they're strong contenders for the absolute worst.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,226
Location
Germany
doesnt bucket reflect the knight? its treated as a projectile right.

in lag in my experience navigating zoning and traps is harder than setting them in lag.

i do think the zelda mains have a very positive outlook of thier character.its like the complete opposite of how my character's discord feels. lol.
As I said, the Phantom is delayed.
Even Samus players can bait that as seen with the example I gave with quiK but they (characters like Samus or Belmonts) can also take advantage if GnW uses Bucket for every projectile.
If your projectile can move independent of your character's positioning then that's even better since you aren't stuck in endlag in case it reflects back. Phantom also isn't energy-based so it can't fill it.
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
504
Bucket can reflect Phantom, but much like Lacrimosa said (well, the point at least), Bucket can be worked around. Best use of a reflector (especially ones like Fox's and G&W's) against Zelda is more for the threat of "I can reflect this" rather than outright always reflecting it (so in this POV, the reflecting characters can bait out certain options from Zelda because they could reflect). Plus, one could always reflect at the moment of release, but it also has its pros and cons (might be worth depending on the situation, like knowing your reflector will break through Naryu's).
Indeed, effectively meaning you have to outplay your opponent as opposed to the move itself countering Phantom. It's like the people who time their Fsmashes to take advantage of contact with Phantom prolonging hitboxs and catching overeager Zeldas. That's outplaying your opponent and I wouldn't add the existence of an Fsmash as an advantage against Zelda (cue lightweight jokes).


Flip Kick will always counter Phantom due to its nature as a simultaneous jump and attack. The worst case scenario is ZSS ends up behind Zelda. But most cases has her being able to punish Zelda on even the lowest Phantom charge. It's part of why ZSS is Zelda's worst MU.

Metal Blade isn't inherently a counter, but combined with Megaman's normals being able to safely shutdown Zelda, it has almost the same effects as Flip Kick. Being able to pass through Phantom isn't unique, but there aren't many I can think of off hand that can segue into other moves like Metal Blade can. It's part of what makes Megaman her second worst MU.

An argument can be made on whether Pocket is a reflector or not, but it is clearly an exception. The mere fact that it can store projectiles as opposed to merely reflecting them means you can't make a calculated risk based on your current percent or stage control. The fact that Pocket gives its user generous intangibility frames makes it almost pointless to try and bait it.


Reflectors aren't inherently a counter by themselves. Or rather, they don't offer more advantages than any other punish. Phantom's knockback is usually too great to follow up on and it's much safer to maneuver around a bad Phantom than it is to time a reflect. Yes you can potentially KO a risky Phantom at high percent but no competent Zelda is going to do anything risky against a reflector at those high percents. There's ultimately very little difference between a character with a reflector and a character without a reflector at higher levels.

That's as opposed to what Phantom does to projectile zoners. When you have an agent of chaos that can block, defuse, and safely cover platforms, then it becomes very difficult to maintain a zone. Phantom displacement furthers this advantage by giving Zelda a safe wall to snipe or gain stage control. Snake can't use his grenades effectively when they are constantly bouncing and detonating all over the place and he can't platform camp effectively at the same time. Young Link can't effectively pressure the Phantom displacement when Phantom's shield acts like a bigger version of Link's own.

That's an advantage that's inherent to Phantom and not just simply outplaying your opponent. Reflectors are more beneficial to Zelda in a lot of cases than their own users simply because Phantom is the only linear projectile (that I can think of off the bat anyways) that can be delayed or mixed up while simultaneously covering multiple ranges and heights. All other linear projectiles I can think of have fixed speeds. Dynamic ones like Fireball have to be used in specific ways in order to be effective. A reflector would ordinarily be safe against these but not one that can be delayed in the way Phantom can. And even a successful reflect can still be considered punishable against a competent Zelda.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
801
An online tournament currently running that might be of interest to some: https://smash.gg/tournament/frame-perfect-series-2-online/details

In particular, this tourney is running a brand new stagelist that Mew2King has been pushing for a while now. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing experimentation like this down the road:

Starters:
  • Battlefield
  • Smashville
  • Small Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Town and City
  • Yoshi's Story (Melee)
  • Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks:
  • Wario Ware, Inc.
  • Unova Pokemon League
  • Kalos Pokemon League
  • Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Yoshi's Story (Brawl)
  • Castle Siege

Also quite a few notable upsets going on already (https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ivb3yc/frame_perfect_series_2_online_ultimate_upset/), particularly Dabuz :ultminmin getting eliminated early at 33rd place to KirbyKid:ultkrool: in Winner's and JeJaJeJa :ultkirby: in Loser's.
 
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Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,302
Location
United States of Russia
An online tournament currently running that might be of interest to some: https://smash.gg/tournament/frame-perfect-series-2-online/details

In particular, this tourney is running a brand new stagelist that Mew2King has been pushing for a while now. To be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing experimentation like this down the road:

Starters:
  • Battlefield
  • Smashville
  • Small Battlefield
  • Final Destination
  • Town and City
  • Yoshi's Story (Melee)
  • Lylat Cruise
Counterpicks:
  • Wario Ware, Inc.
  • Unova Pokemon League
  • Kalos Pokemon League
  • Pokemon Stadium 2
  • Yoshi's Story (Brawl)
  • Castle Siege

Also quite a few notable upsets going on already (https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/ivb3yc/frame_perfect_series_2_online_ultimate_upset/), particularly Dabuz :ultminmin getting eliminated early at 33rd place to KirbyKid:ultkrool: in Winner's and JeJaJeJa :ultkirby: in Loser's.
JeJaJeJa's been tearing up online tournaments with Kirby. I saw a weekly where he only lost to Dom's Richter (which looks like a horrible MU). Kirby's really liking his buffs but it's hard to tell exactly how much low tier characters have improved, especially in this wifi only age.

PS
That stage list is terrible.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
965
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
It's good to see :ultkirby: and :ultzelda: getting talked about. I still see them get placed bottom 10 in some high level players' tier lists. They're not. They're pretty good midtiers now.
 

SapphSabre777

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
376
3DS FC
4742-5094-9684
JeJaJeJa's been tearing up online tournaments with Kirby. I saw a weekly where he only lost to Dom's Richter (which looks like a horrible MU). Kirby's really liking his buffs but it's hard to tell exactly how much low tier characters have improved, especially in this wifi only age.

PS
That stage list is terrible.
It's good to see :ultkirby: and :ultzelda: getting talked about. I still see them get placed bottom 10 in some high level players' tier lists. They're not. They're pretty good midtiers now.
:ultrichter:/:ultkirby: MU has to be played a bit slower, and with WiFI making everything more committal and Kirby's ability to take advantage of openings being much tougher...yeah. Plus he went 2-1 versus another Richter in the same bracket, but I digress.

I made a post months ago in regards to :ultkirby:'s 8.0 buffs, and the more I've seen and self-dabbled, his buffs are similar in structure and mission to :ultkrool:'s: taking what he is average or really well-known for and pushing it further to the point where those strengths or qualities of the character are dangerous when used properly (i.e. Kirby's advantage state and mileage off of hit to K. Rool's armor becoming much more notable along with having more armor frames and buffed moves with the armor to take advantage of it).

The devs are currently deadset on letting Kirby get rewarded in any shape, way, or form, for getting a hit of any capacity, and the buffs and his initial kit show. To compensate for the range issue, Kirby now gets a massive amount of advantage for getting hits and claiming stage control, and his top-level meta is shifting to a deadly bait-and-punish archetype with confirms, mix-ups, and setups being developed and used by the day, such as D-Air Ride, and being anti-camp (Jeja's crew partner is a :ultsonic:, for context, and they have a near-even record even when Sonic is camping Kirby out due to MU-specific knowledge). It's a situation where he has notable weaknesses (range and vertical aerial speed, most notably), but the strengths he obtained, utilized, is optimizing, and has had buffed are much more significant, and are all culminating into a much more formidable version of Kirby that makes you wonder how far he has come from his launch release.

With a good batch of players now saying that there's very little characters that are actually "low tier" (meaning everyone has to watch out for every character, and by consequence there is a very inflated mid-tier as a result) and the above, along with players and performances like Jeja right now and Jesuischoq prior to the pandemic, for the first time in Ultimate's run, :ultkirby: has a bright spot in his future provided his player-base continues to push the character and have players make the dream happen, which fortunately seems to be the case.

Side note since IDJ is mentioned on this page, :ultkirby: gets a ton of mileage from IDJ, and due to the very small landing lag of his aerials and endlag of his tilts, especially U-Tilt, using IDJ for Kirby makes him much more consistent in maximizing his damaging combos (such as ensuring F-Air links proper out of U-Tilt at low-mid %s) and easing the difficulty of certain combos, most notably D-Air Ride, which becomes MUCH easier thanks to how absurdly lenient the window for the inputs are due to the buffer system and his low lag. Jeja uses IDJ and his D-Air Ride consistency is evident thanks to it.
 

KirbySquad101

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 7, 2015
Messages
801
Like SaphrSabre mentioned, if we were to break it down, Wi-Fi generally adds about 8-9 frames of delay to player's inputs. With that in mind, finding an opening against Kirby's boxing up close is harder (which is kind of what happened with Dabuz) given Kirby's safe endlag, fast start-up, and long duration. That said, given his poor approach, Kirby has to rely often on parrying/shielding/NAir-ing through what projectiles/hitboxes get thrown at him, which in of itself can be absolute nightmare online. That said, the Richter-Kirby MU isn't most likely much better offline: Kirby has major issues dealing with multiple projectiles at once, given that his main method of dealing with projectiles is Nair-ing through it. You can do that against the Cross, but not when Axes and Holy Waters are being flung at you all at once.

However, the Kirby-Min Min MU ended up looking better for Kirby than I anticipated. Being able to have multiple jumps on top of long lasting aerial hitboxes to plow through the low priority on Min Min's arms does wonders in approaching her. And when he gets in, he gets in, whether it's 40% combos that lead into UAir juggles, or offstage gimps with DAir chains at early percents.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
2,676
FPS Online 2

1st: Maister :ultgnw:
2nd: mabelssb:ultdoc:
3rd: LeoN:ultbowser:
4th: Joker:ultsamus:
5th: KirbyKid:ultkrool:
5th: Sytonix:ultken:
7th: Mr. E:ultlucina:
7th: ChunkyKong:ultdk:
9th: Pokelam:ultvillager:
9th: Waymas:ultwario:
9th: Sparg0:ultcloud:
9th: Aaron:ultdiddy:


This was a very, very wacky tournament.
Many players upsetted early, unconventional character picks advancing far, and the very strange stagelist, this was a very.... interesting tournament to say the least.
 
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