Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Server maintenance has began. Update is going to drop very soon. Any final predictions?
They're gonna buff Link to top tier. Sonic will be banned from the game entirely. Mewtwo will be turned into a heavyweight. Ganon will run at Bowser's speed and have invincibility on his Up-B. Peach's bombs will come out more frequently; even more frequently for using Daisy. Toon Link will die, Young Link shortly after because he's so light. Sonic will be banned from the game entirely. Greninja gets Greninja'd again. Jigglypuff gets infinite jumps. Kirby still sucks. Electric attacks heal Pichu now. Shulk has no landing lag on air attacks. Luigi's air speed is buffed significantly. Ness's pk fire travels twice as far. Cloud's up-b now always functions as the limit break version. Roy is not a boy anymore. Sonic will be banned from the game entirely. Online will function worse than ever.

Let the notes roll in.

Edit: Marth got tipper buffs from the look of it, on a serious note.
 
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Nate1080

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Just messing around with moves in training room:

Smash attack A with beam is more than half of Battle Field.
Dash Attack goes extremely far.
Uncharged Megawatt does 13 damage and fully charged Megawatt does 36 damage.
Just realized you can basically double back air, with A and then with B.

Also I think being able to attack behind you might be relevant in more than just doubles. You can run away from the opponent and attack them without wasting frames turning around. That’s real imo.
 

The_Bookworm

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When I translated the notes, everything became even more incomprehensible than usual.

From the looks of it, here at the characters that got changed the most in terms of quantity alone:
:ultkirby::ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultike::ultdiddy::ultkingdedede::ultvillager::ultwiifittrainer::ultcorrinf::ultbayonetta::ultkrool::ultisabelle::ultincineroar::ultpiranha:

Now until the properly translated patch notes come out, we won't know (or at least I don't know) what are specifically changed.

Here are the ones I specifically found:
:ultmarth: the tippers on some of the moves are easier to connect.
:ultlittlemac::ultbayonetta: both of the airdodge distances seem to have increased to match everyone else. A nice buff to both, especially Mac.
:ultincineroar::ultmewtwo: what Nobie said about Incineroar and Mewtwo. :p
 
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https://twitter.com/Tsunazoz/status/1277777847436947456

Ehehehe. Ike can easily use it OoS as well. And combo Nair into it at kill percents with a backhit.

Nair > Uair is harder to do but is still doable (particularly with backhit), Dtilt is a combo move now, Fair has less lag. Dash Attack kills better. Overall Ike got buffed but should also have a bit of a different playing style. Somewhere between his old SSBU and SSB4 playing styles if I had to guess.

Oh and he can Fair twice off stage and still make it back now for bonus fun. Actual offstage edgeguarding options in my Ike playing style?
 
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Idon

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Finally... Marth buffs...

They buffed the tipper range on his aerials so hopefully we'll see them actually kill at a reasonable rate.
 

StrangeKitten

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https://twitter.com/Tsunazoz/status/1277777847436947456

Ehehehe. Ike can easily use it OoS as well. And combo Nair into it at kill percents with a backhit.

Nair > Uair is harder to do but is still doable (particularly with backhit), Dtilt is a combo move now, Fair has less lag. Dash Attack kills better. Overall Ike got buffed but should also have a bit of a different playing style. Somewhere between his old SSBU and SSB4 playing styles if I had to guess.
Ike's been my go-to swordie even though I also enjoy playing the "better" Roy and Lucina. So glad I've stuck with him now. These buffs are downright DESGUSTANG
 

Arthur97

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Not really the Mac buffs I was really hoping for.

Also, they left Ganonforf alone despite going after so many of the others. Why?

Oh, well, at least they buffed K. Rool. Hope those Marth changes aren't too spicy.
 

StrangeKitten

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Incineroar (my co-main alongside Joker) K Rool Dark Pit Piranha Plant Mewtwo jsdkfkhkdjvkjfd they gave love to all the low tiers I love to play I'm over the damn moon holy shoot

Revenge got buffed with a higher power up (alongside less lag) AND the lariat from the alolan whip kills earlier. Can anyone test how it and Fthrow kill with revenge now?
I would but I've been awake far too long, too tired to play rn lol
Alolan Whip already killed stupid early even without Revenge. This character's gonna be sooo dumb I love it

Sad boy hours for Ganon and Mac, who probably needed buffs more than the others did tbh. Oh well, they're clearly listening so hopefully we'll get something for them someday.
 
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san.

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I don't think the developers know the ramifications of what they did for Ike exactly. I would call Ike's changes a pretty substantial buff.

Nair: Increasing the knockback was NOT the solution if they wanted to nerf this attack. Front-nair now kill confirms at a more meta-competitive %, 80%. Reverse-nair kill confirms around the same % as pre-patch front-nair. I think this attack might actually have gotten buffed for top level players.

Fair: This move was fixed, period. It's still a bit weak, but it's no longer a noodle. It can actually be used to edgeguard as well. This attack is now a prominent tool for tech chases, edgeguards, and combo finishers. FAF was reduced from 60->52, not an insignificant change.

Dtilt: Less knockback gives Ike a threatening ground neutral at higher %s. He is no longer forced to jump to get things going.

Dash attack: Kills noticeably much earlier, in the realm of 10-15% earlier. I felt that dash attack was a bit lacking and thought I was alone on that front.

Aether: Now kills ~100% from like 170+%. This is not a joke. Ike now has a good out of shield option where the reward is definitely worth the risk.


Ike lost nair confirms from 100-140%, but gained a plethora of options to secure a stock with a more robust neutral. Overall, I think Ike was a big winner from this patch.
 
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FruitLoop

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:ultkingdedede: got some MAD buffs yo! Specifically his advantage state is now officially rewarded and he doesn't have super awful kill power anymore.

Forward-Air now killing earlier while having extra knockback growth at mid % for better offstage gimps was a big buff in general already. I personally think that fair trains offstage are a BIT harder at mid to late % but its easier to setup fair to gordo frame traps at higher %s.

Up-Air FINALLY kills, after being infamously known for never killing until absurd %, the move can now kill as early as 100%! This alongside its range means that it's ACTUALLY scary to try to land vs DDD.

Up-Tilt kills even earlier and sends even further allowing for potentially more up-air killing scenarios and it does A LOT for DDD.

Down-Tilt sends at a lower angle meaning that the move can kill at high % unlike before AND it can send DDD into ledge trapping scenarios. Since this is DDD's quickest move in the CQC this means that theres actually some resemblance of threat for getting too close to him.

Inhale finally got its hitbox fixed for when people hold shield nearby him and sometimes don't get scooped up WHILE HAVING LESS STARTUP. This means that Dedede has an EVEN better time dealing with shields (although its still quite poor) and he can actually anti-camp a little better since the startup reduction also indirectly buffs its endlag. It's allegedly frame 14 as opposed to frame 17 and the 3 frame difference is HUGE.

A shadow buff that people don't mention is the fact that when DDD uses Side-Special, the hammer hit now ALWAYS combos into the gordo as opposed to before. This is huge and means that he won't randomly die for having the opponent get hit by ONLY the hammer and take a huge punish for it.

As for Dedede on the tier list, I still CERTAINLY don't think he'll be a good character at all. However he's clearly no longer a contender for the worst character in the game and could be as high as placing in the bottom of mid tier! His matchup spread will still be quite bad but he might actually flat out BEAT characters like :ultsnake: and :ultpeach:due to his buffs directly affecting those matchups super hard while he'll be able to beat out a lot of the other heavyweights and characters that can just never worry about getting hit by his bair/up-smash oos.
 
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Best OOS aside from G&W Up-B now?
Eh, still has its start up before an active hitbox happens for the payoff, don't know if I'd put it that far. Not going to pretend I know exactly how good every Up B OoS is, I imagine ones like Mario are still nutty. But its pretty stupid in a lot of different ways.
 

Zachmac

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Best OOS aside from G&W Up-B now?
Well the actual hitbox doesn't come out until frame 15, so while the move is crazy powerful now it's still a very high commitment move. It has armor, but that can be easily counterplayed by holding shield, dashing or rolling back or even grabbing after hitting Ike's shield.

But it does mean you're going to have to be very careful about applying shield pressure or throwing out unsafe attacks.
 

KakuCP9

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From the sounds of things, it sounds like Ike's Up-b is comparable to Falcon's Up-b where it's not fast enough as a traditional OOS punish, but the KO power it has basically demands respect from most of the cast (especially since Ike's up-b has quick-ish super armour). Heck, the two also have ways to confirm into said Up-b for devastating KOs. Pretty neat!
 

The_Bookworm

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Notable changes:

:ultmario::ultdoc: they might've finally fixed their Final Smash. The knockback nerf it got from SSB4 to Ultimate was really dumb.
:ultjigglypuff::ulticeclimbers::ultsonic::ultolimar::ultwiifittrainer::ultrosalina::ult_terry: their Final Smashes got better.
:ultpalutena::ultbayonetta: both of their final smashes, for some reason got nerfed.

... oh wait, we are talking competitive play right now... ok...

:ultkirby: Kirby got some knockback buffs to some of his moves, including dash attack, down smash forward air, back air, and down B. Down smash is made faster, forward air's damage increased, and dash attack has less endlag. Some QoL changes for Kirby. Already one of the better low tiers prior to the patch, although he is likely still low tier due to these changes not really touching on his weaknesses too much.
:ultfalcon: they buffed the absolute crap out his side B. Better hit detection, stronger combo potential due to the decreased knockback and adjusted launch angle, and the aerial version is now essentially Brawl air side B with the added pleasure on not putting him into freefall when activated. Received other nice buffs, such as less lag on dash attack, more knockback on down tilt (which has a disgusting launch angle) and up smash (which has disgusting range on the first hit), and they buffed down B again with faster startup and knockback. Overall, while he got no initial turnaround change, these are some really nice buffs to Falcon.
:ultfalco: got a lot of really nice consistency buffs. This is to especially to neutral air and up smash. Up smash got a nice knockback buff (which is already one of Falco's most used KO options). Down tilt is faster and I am assuming that the new launch angle makes it KO more consistently. Down air lag buffs are nice too. However, they seem to have finally fixed the issue of Falco's side B having a shorter hitbox duration than what the animation suggests, an issue Larry Lurr put on the spotlight. The startup buff is nice too. Overall, very nice QoL changes to make an already solid character more consistent.
:ultmarth: he got a tipper increase in key moves, such as fair, bair, and up air. This isn't going to be a huge dealbreaker, as his sourspots is still pathetically weak in this game, but this is a really nice buff to this character.
:ultmewtwo: got a nice knockback buff to back air and up air. Not sure if the down throw change will make the move any good in combos, but it is something. Shadow Ball has increased attack speed and less lag, which is cool since it is key move in his playstyle. The main thing that curiouses me the most is less endlag and landing lag on up B. How much lag? Could it be better a landing option as a mixup? Either way, while these changes aren't as impactful as the last few times Mewtwo got buffed, they are nice regardless.
:ultmetaknight: can a few nice consistency buffs to fair, bair, and up B. Didn't touch up smash interestingly, but it is nice regardless. Nair now has more range, fair with less lag, and the strong hit of neutral B lasts longer now. Not huge dealbreakers for MK, but it is here regardless.
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: got some really nice buffs, changes that some Pit players have been asking for quite a bit. Down tilt is a better combo starter and the first hit of down smash is stronger. Those are nice. However, they also did some other really nice changes. Up smash's final hit is stronger, aka Pit's most used KO option. Up air got a lot of buffs, featuring decreased startup, less endlag, better launch angle, and more KO power. I haven't tested this yet, but if everything is as good as it sounds, up air has been finally fixed. Down B also has been endlag, which makes it better for situational landing options, like how every Pit player was using during the first month of the game. Also, Pit may potentially be a sleeper big winner of the patch, although quite a bit of their problems remain.
:ultike: already very solid character, although has been dropping off from his glory days from the early Ultimate meta. Not going into detail on how insanely buffed this character got, since San already covered it, but he does seem to be a big winner of the patch.
:ultdiddy: got some really nice range buffs, such as dash attack, forward tilt, and forward air. Fair's range buff is the most significant, since it is a key move in Diddy's moveset. There are also some other nice QoL buffs, such as dash attack consistency, down smash startup, launch angle adjustment to f-tilt, and hit detection increases to a few moves. It may seem like they removed the infinite though, which is ok since it is situational anyways. Still a net buff overall to an already very solid character.
:ultkingdedede: changes are fairly solid but not too significant on a surface level. However, FruitLoop seems to have detected some very stealth buffs to Inhale and to Gordo Toss. Overall, this is pretty nice update to Dedede, and although he is still likely a low tiered character, his position in the low tiers got better indeed. He is probably at around Kirby's level now, which at around the top of low tier (at least imo).
:ultvillager: got some fairly significant buffs, some of which directly addressing of the nerfs he got from SSB4 to Ultimate. Some of the QoL changes includes better consistency on jab, more knockback on up smash and up air, decreased endlag on the sapling and watering can, and increased the knockback and shield damage on the axe. However, his bigger changes come with up tilt and down air. Up tilt got some consistency buffs, which is something it fairly often suffered from, and added arm and head invincibility when using the move, making it a much better anti-air option overall. Down air got it's startup reduced, which is one of his bigger nerfs from SSB4 to Ultimate. Overall, Villy might be one of the bigger winners of the patch.
:ultwiifittrainer: Wii Fit got a few QoL buffs. Most of which didn't really change the character too much, aside from less cooldown on fair, adjusted launch angle on down smash, and more knockback on neutral B. Nothing too major, but the character was already fairly solid, so it is alright.
:ultcorrinf: got some pretty nice buffs as well, but they are odd. Forward smash got a nice buff of the move's tip dealing more knockback, the tip being bigger, and having more shieldstun. They also made back air stronger as well. This is where things get... weird. Forward air got increased knockback, which may actually be an overall nerf, as it may make the move harder to combo into stuff. However, they also buffed up air's power. So new KO confirm maybe? Finally, Pin got some love, it seems to have less cooldown and more power, which is two things the move needs. They didn't seem to fix the pin kick whiffing for no reason, which will continue to annoy me whenever I play the character, but the Pin buffs are nice.
Corrin has the potential to be a big winner of the patch, but it solely depends on the numbers: how much stronger is the move, how much less cooldown the move has, etc. If not, then these changes may at the very least help out Corrin's position in the lower tiers.
:ultbayonetta: got a some nice changes as well. Forward tilt's 3rd hit has less cooldown at last, although it still is likely a meh move. Forward smash is now a bit stronger (although they didn't remove the blindspot). Up B has a lower SDI multiplier, which is nice, although I don't quite know how much it affects the move's consistency. Heel Slide has less cooldown, although I don't know if "Reduced vulnerability when kicking upward." means the 2nd part of Heel Slide or ABK. Either way, a nice change. Her most significant change, imo, is that they may have finally fixed up tilt for real this time. She is still a character plagued with very slow moves, abysmal KO power, and inconsistent moves, but these buffs seem to help out Bayo in the things she is actually solid at.
:ultkrool: got a few QoL buffs. Up smash and dash attack is now stronger and his side B now has stronger armor. His armor duration as a whole got increased duration, although the significance of this can only be seen when we know how much it got buffed. Regardless, these buffs did pretty much nothing for the weaknesses that still plague him, so he is still going to be very low tier (especially since other bottom 10 characters such as Dedede, Corrin, and Bayo got more significant buffs), although the armor mechanic buff might be something worth looking at.
:ultisabelle: got a few nice buffs. It is mostly the same as Villager, with the difference of having dash attack and up smash's startup buffed. However, that being said, I find Isabelle's buffs to be significantly less helpful than Villager's, who is already at a higher tier, as these changes doesn't really address any of the core flaws of her moveset and attributes, while Villager's changes does. Villager also received more notable improvements overall, like to up tilt and to down B. Overall, still a bottom 5/10 character, especially thanks to the more significant buffs to Dedede, Corrin, and Bayo.
:ultincineroar: got some pretty nice buffs, which is already explained by Ropalm. The startup buffs to its grabs and Revenge buffs are going to be spicy to see. Still likely a lower tiered character, but these buffs are helpful regardless.
:ultpiranha: got a few nice QoL changes, with the decrease to forward air's startup being the most significant as far as I can see. KO buffs to a few moves like back air and up air, and startup drops from up tilt and down smash help too. However with PPlant having a lot of the same weaknesses, PPlant is still very likely a lower tiered character, but at least its buffs are more helpful than of K. Rool's and Isabelle's.


The DLC characters got barely any changes, aside from PPlant. The tier position on most of them is likely not going to change much, probably a slight drop on Banjo and Byleth due to the significant buffs to other mid tiers like Diddy, Falcon, Ike, Marth, Wii Fit, Falco, and Villager.

However, I can see :ulthero: endure a noticeable blow this patch. With the character's continued lack of representation, ok at best results but being backed by a player who uses him as a mere co-main, his success as a solo character being almost nonexistent past low level play, and any significant changes from updates, this character may fall cleanly in the low tiers. I personally think the character was low tier prior to 8.0, but that is a viewpoint not widely accepted by everyone. However, with the notable/significant buffs to some of the low tiers, this character's position in the low tiers may have been sealed.


Anyways, here are the winners of the patch, in order from significant (left) to least significant (right).

Characters I think are the big winners:
:ultike::ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultvillager::ultmarth:

Characters that may potentially be big winners:
:ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultcorrinf:

Characters that got some nice help overall:
:ultkingdedede::ultmewtwo::ultbayonetta::ultkirby::ultdiddy::ultmetaknight::ultwiifittrainer:

Will post on the biggest losers soon enough, but this is to prevent this post from being too long. Overall a nice balance patch that addresses things some people have complained about for a while.
 

StrangeKitten

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Ike and Incineroar killing mad early with oos options (Aether and Up Smash, respectively) B)
Disappointed in the lack of :ultbanjokazooie: buffs
Banjo's another character I was hoping for some buffs for. I'd like to see him either have better low % combos, or better kill power on some moves. He feels weird in his current state, and not in a good way.
 

Thinkaman

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I think everyone is sleeping on the Isabelle changes. She got a full three frames off the end of u-tilt, and more knockback out of the thing it confirms into. There are a lot of kills here that didn't exist before, provided by what is now a 29 total frame move with generous coverage.

Additionally, u-smash being 2 frames faster edges it into viability as an OoS option (now only 1 frame slower than nair, 5 faster than grab) and a landing aerial payload. (Now only 1 frame slower than d-smash, for 1.4x the damage.)

Edit: Oh, and this means Jab -> u-smash is now a viable kill confirm at high percents. It's exactly like d-smash, but kicks in one frame (~20% damage) later and kills more consistently independent of stage position.
 
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The_Bookworm

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In terms of the biggest losers, it is mostly to low tiered, or borderline low tier, characters that didn't get touched or received not too many helpful buffs.

:ulthero: I already talked about Hero, but just going to add this here just so my thoughts are nicely organized:
With the character's continued lack of representation, ok at best results but being backed by a player who uses him as a mere co-main, his success as a solo character being almost nonexistent past low level play, and any significant changes from updates, this character may fall cleanly in the low tiers. I personally think the character was low tier prior to 8.0, but that is a viewpoint not widely accepted by everyone. However, with the notable/significant buffs to some of the low tiers, this character's position in the low tiers may have been sealed.
:ultlucario: got pretty much nothing this patch. This hurts, because it is previously tethering on the edge of being low tier, but with the buffs to Mewtwo, Pit, Kirby, and a few other lower tiered characters, he is likely in the low tiers now unfortunately.
:ultrichter::ultsimon: Belmonts also got nothing this patch. The original "Distance Demon" character is enduring hard times lately, but with the buffs to Incineroar, Dedede, Corrin, and Bayo, this character is likely in an even deeper spot in the low tiers.
:ultswordfighter: none of the Mii Fighters got anything. This hurts Brawler and hurts Gunner even more. However, this is especially large blow to Mii Swordfighter, as it dropped off to the point where it became a contender for the weakest Sword character the game alongside Corrin. Now that Corrin got received some fairly notable buffs, Mii Swordfighter is likely the worst sword character in the game rn, and by extension, one of the weaker characters in the game.
:ultdoc::ultjigglypuff::ultlittlemac::ultganondorf: are the other low tiers that got nothing. This doesn't hurt Doc as much as the other three, but it is still a notable blow to him. The other three, however, it in an even worse spot than prior to the patch. Perception on Ganondorf is even weaker nowadays, but it is likely going to be weaker still. The Falcon and Falco matchups, in particular, are now going to be an extra pain for him to deal with.
:ultkrool: between K. Rool and the other technically buffed low tiers that are likely not going to change too much in position, that being PPlant and Isabelle, K. Rool definitely got it the roughest. All he really got is small knockback buffs to already strong moves. Not sure how much his armor mechanic buff will affect him, but he regardless got pretty much nothing that addresses his core flaws. Likely won't really change too much in position by virtue of at least getting something, but things are still looking bleak for him.


Now something I noticed is that a lot of the big winners of the patch are to mid tier characters. :ultike::ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultvillager:, as well as a few nice changes to Diddy and Wii Fit.
As such, while mid tier characters that are already borderline high tier like :ulttoonlink::ultryu::ultsheik::ultzelda:, are not really going feel this change too much, mid tier characters that are considered to be solid at best will start to fall behind even more, especially on the ones people are recently getting iffy with.

The main ones includes, :ultduckhunt::ultrobin::ultlucas::ultbanjokazooie::ultbyleth::ultridley:, who are likely also notable losers of the patch.
Duck Hunt and Robin are likely the least affected of the bunch I selected, the former because Raito and a few other Duck Hunt players still do stuff with the character, and the latter due to the presence his mains have been getting especially in recent times.
 

Lacrimosa

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As such, while mid tier characters that are already borderline high tier like :ulttoonlink::ultryu::ultsheik::ultzelda:, are not really going feel this change too much
They buffed some of her worst match-ups.
:ultfalco: could very well be her worst MU now (depending on the use of replaced Phantom).
:ultbayonetta:, :ultdiddy:and :ultmarth:aren't MUs I consider good for her as well.
:ultvillager::ultisabelle::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultike: also give her some problems already.
:ultfalcon::ultmewtwo: are probably losing now.
:ultkirby::ultcorrinf: :ultincineroar::ultkrool::ultmetaknight::ultlittlemac::ultwiifittrainer:are whatever

So basically, they buffed her worst non-high tier match-ups in this patch which will be an issue. I don'T like this patch at first glance but I just gotta wait and see. But it'S not a patch that pulls me back into the game, most likely.
 
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Day 1 impressions of the patch:

  • :ultminmin I have no idea what Nintendo was doing with this character, but she feels like a weird cross between :ultmegaman:, :ultbyleth:, and :ultlittlemac: to me, and I'm not sure if she's that good. A lot of my concerns regarding this character were unnecessary I feel like and she seems much more underwhelming than I thought she would be (keep in mind this is day 1, so I could be wrong here).
    • Range is very impressive, attacks are long, disjointed, and fast, approaching her can be hard for some characters.
    • Her moves don't generally deal much shield damage, and the ones that do are slow and reactable. Run up, shielding, and up-b OOS seems to be a strategy some characters can employ against her.
    • Her recovery is okay. Like Ivysaur's, it can travel far if you are in the right position, but is fairly easy to gimp.
    • She's pretty slow but weights the same as Link/Yoshi/Falcon/Gunner and has decent kill power, although most of her kill moves are slow.
    • Her damage output feels somewhat mediocre overall.
    • Some of her hitboxes were phasing through Bowser during the initial parts of the animation, meaning they probably take a few frames to activate despite the animations showing otherwise.
    • Her disadvantage seems terrible.
    • Moves seem to clank with her Arms.
    • Platform camping may be a viable strategy against her.
    • She has an easier time hitting characters low to the ground than I thought she would.
  • Noticeably buffed characters
    • :ultkirby: Kirby received some more QoL changes, with the power and frame data of a few moves being buffed. It doesn't look like anything major, but the changes are nice anyways.
    • :ultfalcon: Falcon may have been released from the mid tier hell he's been stuck in for the past year and a half. Up-smash works reliably and kills incredibly early, side-b got overhauled, down-b is faster and stronger, and dash attack has improved combo potential at lower percents.
    • :ultfalco: Falco got buffs to both up-smash and side-b, two moves with hitbox issues. The multihits of n-air work more reliably, d-air is less laggy, and d-tilt seems to be faster and better for combos. If he wasn't high tier before, he probably is now.
    • :ultmarth: People may have a reason to use Marth again. Down-smash, along with all of his aerials (minus n-air and d-air) received buffs to their hitboxes. B-air's in particular seems much better than before, but I'd like to see the hitbox visualizations to see just how much better they are.
    • :ultmewtwo: Mewtwo's down-throw seems to have improved combo potential due to reduced lag, up-special has less end lag, Shadow Ball is stronger, and b-air and up-air got stronger.
    • :ultmetaknight: Like Kirby, Meta Knight just received some QoL changes to make some of his moves more reliable, however I think his changes are much more noteworthy than Kirby's. Up-b's connection issues between the hits have been fixed, n-air has a better hitbox, f-air connects more reliably, and Mach Tornado's sweetspot has a longer duration.
    • :ultpit::ultdarkpit: The Pit's received some good overall changes here. D-tilt has improved combo potential, up and down smash have improved KO power, down-special is less laggy, and up-air has been overhauled, possibly being a much better juggling and killing move now.
    • :ultike: Despite the changes to n-air making n-air > up-air much less effective, Ike's up-b's increased kill power allows it to combo from n-air and kill at mid percents. This is on top of the buffs to dash attack, down-tilt, and f-air.
    • :ultkingdedede: Dedede received minor changes to f-air and d-tilt, but received solid buffs to the startup lag on inhale and the KO power of up-air and up-tilt.
    • :ultvillager: Villager's jab and up-tilt connect easier while the latter has gained invincibility, up-smash and up-air have higher kill power, d-air is faster, and his Down-b has been overhauled, making it much better overall.
    • :ultwiifittrainer: Wii Fit got some minor QoL changes in a similar manner to Kirby.
    • :ultcorrin: Corrin got a ton of buffs, after missing out on the last two patches. B-air, up-air, f-smash, and side-b all received buffs to their KO power, with f-smash also getting a range buff, side-b getting less lag, and f-air dealing more damage.
    • :ultbayonetta: Bayonetta's up-tilt is faster, has more active frames, and is more reliable overall, f-tilt gained less endlag on the final hit, f-smash has more active frames and is stronger, SDI has been weakened against up-special, and side-b has decreased lag.
    • :ultridley: THIS CHANGE IS NOT OK. Ridley has gained the ability to combo down-b out of down-throw without inflicting the crumple state that is usually inflicts on the opponent. This should be patched out ASAP and hopefully we see a patch fixing it within the next few days I thought Ridley's change was different from what it was, it was just a damage buff to skewer that messed with the crumple state after being grabbed.
    • :ultkrool: Similarly to Wii Fit and Kirby, K. Rool got some solid QoL changes, that on their own, wouldn't be too noteworthy, but he did receive one very notable change: his Belly Armor has more HP.
    • :ultisabelle: Got QoL changes across the board, with up-air in particular benefiting from it's increased kill potential due to down-b > up-air supposedly killing reliably at decent percents now.
    • :ultincineroar: Incineroar received several QoL changes, along with a power boost to Revenge and less endlag, less startup lag on his grab, along with side special being faster and stronger.
    • :ultpiranha: Plant's f-air, up-tilt, and d-smash are all faster, up-tilt's angle has been changed, and b-air is stronger.
  • Nerfed Characters
    • :ultdiddy: Despite receiving some buffs in return, The Pyramid Scheme has most likely been removed due to the increased lag on throwing banana a second time. This may impact Diddy's viability negatively, but we'll have to see about that one.
  • Minor changes, not worth mentioning
    • :ultmario::ultjigglypuff::ulticeclimbers::ultsheik::ultdoc::ultzss::ultivysaur::ultsonic::ultolimar::ultmegaman::ultlittlemac::ultpalutena::ultpacman::ultduckhunt::ulthero::ultbanjokazooie::ult_terry:
Overall, I think this patch did a good job of buffing some of the more underwhelming characters. I'm particularly interested in the changes to :ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultike::ultvillager::ultmarth: and :ultcorrin: since a lot of the changes these guys received were pretty significant overall. I also really hope :ultridley:'s true 60% combo off of down-throw is removed, it's not OK for him as a character and arguably makes him even more grab centralized than Luigi. I don't think :ultminmin is very well designed, she has a fairly lame and campy fighting style that requires the opponent to out-lame her (IDK how to phrase it better) a lot of the time.

How I feel each character fared in this patch:

Big changes, will likely impact viability positively:

:ultfalcon::ultfalco::ultmarth::ultike::ultvillager::ultcorrin::ultisabelle:

Changes that are nice to have, and may results in a slight change in viability:

:ultkirby::ultmewtwo::ultmetaknight::ultpit::ultdarkpit::ultkingdedede::ultwiifittrainer::ultbayonetta::ultkrool::ultpiranha:

Good changes, but I have trouble seeing their overall viability changing very much based on this patch:

:ultincineroar::ultridley:

Was undeniably nerfed, despite some QoL buffs:

:ultdiddy:

Edit: I fixed stuff regarding Ridley's changes, I initially misunderstood what the change was.
 
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User7a1
  • :ultridley: THIS CHANGE IS NOT OK. Ridley has gained the ability to combo down-b out of down-throw without inflicting the crumple state that is usually inflicts on the opponent. This should be patched out ASAP and hopefully we see a patch fixing it within the next few days.
People are certainly going to think this, but Ridley already had this "combo" from day 1. D-Throw to Skewer at very low percents. was a thing if the opponent neutral airdodged or didn't move. It's nothing major, only works at so little percents, and honestly, it's nothing major. However, before the patch, when Skewer landed, both hits would have connected. Here, only the first hit connects, and I think I know why.

The first hit of Ridley's Skewer was changed into a hit-grab, much like the first hit of both Byleth's Up-B and Terry's Buster Wolf. I tested this with a grab release followed by Skewer to make sure. And because it is considered a hit grab, the second hit won't activate after doing a regular grab (Space Pirate Rush takes so long that doing Skewer after it should result in both hits of Skewer working). This removes any tech chase follow-ups Ridley could ordinarily do with Skewer. As well, this was to prevent double infinites involving grab + Skewer. It doesn't remove some other combination like Sing + Skewer, but it is something. Plus, grab is much easier to get than Sing.

So if anything, Ridley got very slightly buffed in Singles and nerfed in doubles. The "combo" people are discovering isn't anything new and relies on your opponent doing something dumb.

(Had to make some edits for testing what I was saying.)
 
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Everyone is talking about the new changes (understandably so a lot changed). But how are your way to early Min Min impressions?

Definitely a character that controls space ALOT of space. The use of A and B to control the ARMS is cool, my brain is having trouble with the concept but that’s just a nice learning curve she has, and allows for a lot of timing mixups. She’s gonna be good catching people trying to move out of shield hastily and good at punishing people trying to hit buttons as a means to get in. Her jab from my playtesting is frame 5 but it seems to have really good range as does her up tilt both will be critical in making sure she doesn’t get ran over in closer ranges matchups. She’s got some strong moves, naturally as her design doesn’t give much for combos. Up smash is frame 7 good kill power but a notable blind spot behind her (I’ll touch on this later) the ball ARM hits like a truck (the dragon cannon blast does as well) she’s not a character you want to miss a tech against ever and one good hit off stage will probably send to the blast zone. I really like her nair as well being able to use A and B to choose which ARM to attack with provides a lot in terms of mixups and guessing.

I do have to say I hope she isn’t as easy to run over once you’ve gotten close as it seems. While up tilt and jab are nice they require her to not being actively using an ARM to use and if she isn’t using an ARM shes letting her opponent get too close to her. A well timed jump can get you between a outstretched ARM and allow you to apply immediately pressure. If she has to shield she’s stuck. Her up smash from my testing is frame 7 but that blind spot exists, after that she has a frame 10-11 nair that doesn’t cover her entire body at once, that’s it. She’s going to have to up b out of most situations to deal with shield pressure and while she has means to maneuver out of the up b I don’t think it’s going to be enough to actually let her land safely unless her dair has some really good hitbox and shield safety. Nair isn’t helping. I also know Min Min players will be better at dealing with off stage and being cornered but I’ve never felt so helpless off stage in a long time when I was playing with Min Min. It definitely reminded me of Belmont’s off stage except with even less options.
 
Joined
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Messages
754
Kirby buffs at a first glance:

- DSmash: Start-up reduced (frame 10 -> 7) and kills Mario at around 85% at the ledge.
- Dash Attack: Endlag reduced (FAF 60 -> 52) and kills Mario at around 89% at the ledge.
- Forward Aerial: Second and third hit damage increased (3% (second hit)/5% (third hit)/12% (total) -> 4%/4%/6%) and now kills Mario at around 110~115% at the ledge
- Back Aerial: Kills Mario at around 100% at the ledge.
- Down B Knockback buffed (kills at around 95% now).

Running through them all:

- Despite having the most noticeable buff in power, Stone's improvement probably has the least impact (not in Free-For-Alls tho). It certainly stacks on the potential dangers of getting too careless with Kirby when trying to juggle him; not much to say about it, but it's a very nice QoL change.

- Down Smash gives Kirby yet ANOTHER kill confirm now, this time, forward aerial's second hit into DSmash, which already explains for itself how it makes it even more scary it makes to get hit by Kirby at percents that are not even that high (think 100%). The importance in its improvements lies within how Kirby will get it off other attacks. That said, on its own, it's a nice burst option and it's Kirby's fastest ground option for kills now, which was nice considering how his fastest kill option was only frame 9. https://twitter.com/ferretkumaaa/status/1277781340193095681

- Forward aerial - Forward aerial's 2nd hit is safer on block, only a measly -5 frames (might I remind you that this is a kill confirm move now), killing at the ledge at a much earlier percent (down from around 140%) is incredibly potent to Kirby's ledge pressure. Keep in mind this move keeps swinging starting from frame 10 until frame 27, and has a cool down of a measly 8 frames. It gives Kirby yet another kill aerial, and one that lasts so damn long at that.

- Back aerial - Who wants a frame 6 kill option that kills even earlier? This was arguably one of Kirby's best attacks in 4, and in Ultimate, the only thing they toned down about the move to compensate for longer duration and reducing landing lag (aside from late hit duration) was the kill power, which they went back on now. And did I forget to mention it's still only -5 on block and is disjointed?

- Dash attack - By far the most important buff to Kirby imo for two reasons: There is a MUCH less commitment required for using this attack, which is especially important given it's one of Kirby's attacks that gives him a moving hitbox, and on top of that, the later hits now have true combo potential, in particular, UAir and Inhale: https://streamable.com/3xj4tp

This actually gives dash attack potential for being used as a pressure tool, a combo starter, or a way to get in (this might be overblowing it). The move still suffers from being susceptible to DI, but I'd certainly value a move that now combos AND kills.

Overall, a really nice set of buffs for Kirby once again. From the looks of, it's very clear at this point the developers want to keep Kirby's somewhat eh mobility (though that's mostly on his air speed) and a lack of approach to be an inherit weakness for the character. And I've said it before and I'll say it again: That's all good as long as you give me a reason WHY Kirby's air mobility should be so bad or why his mobility is only average. And they keep improving on that reason, between the buffs to his forward aerial, his back aerial, and especially to the buffs on his dash attack.

I also won't pretend these buffs won't bump Kirby up 30+ spaces, especially considering how many others got buffs, but I do feel like people sort of have a case of tunnel vision when discussing the character (although this is mostly directed at Reddit). As much as a mobility buff would help Kirby, you can't really summarize the impact of his buffs to "did he get faster? No? He still sucks lol". While I can understand that it's too early to tell how impactful this will be when you consider that a good chunk of characters got buffed this path, I did want to dig a little deeper beyond the more basic generalizations I've seen so far.

Also, for anyone who wants to see Ike's new buffs in action (already): https://twitter.com/truerRyuga
 

Arthur97

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
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I mean, it's been less than a day. At least with the changes you have more of a foundation to estimate how they might ed up changing things. I'd say give Mim Min some time to settle before passing judgment.
 
Joined
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:ultcorrinf: got some pretty nice buffs as well, but they are odd. Forward smash got a nice buff of the move's tip dealing more knockback, the tip being bigger, and having more shieldstun. They also made back air stronger as well. This is where things get... weird. Forward air got increased knockback, which may actually be an overall nerf, as it may make the move harder to combo into stuff. However, they also buffed up air's power. So new KO confirm maybe? Finally, Pin got some love, it seems to have less cooldown and more power, which is two things the move needs. They didn't seem to fix the pin kick whiffing for no reason, which will continue to annoy me whenever I play the character, but the Pin buffs are nice.
Corrin has the potential to be a big winner of the patch, but it solely depends on the numbers: how much stronger is the move, how much less cooldown the move has, etc. If not, then these changes may at the very least help out Corrin's position in the lower tiers.
Seems based on early testing, tipper f-smash deals around 2% more damage and kills around 15% earlier, with a bigger tipper hitbox, and it's more safe on shield now (-26), from -29. Killing around 15% earlier seems pretty significant as far as f-smash goes, even 3 frames better on shield helps, especially since you will we spaced far away.

Forward air got its knockback compensated, and the extra damage means a little more hitstun, which is useful. Short hop fair apparently deals 1.6% more damage, full hop 1.8%. Not bad, that adds up if you hit several fairs in a game. The extra hitstun might make it better as a combo tool and might make it a strong tool for setups as well.

Down-tilt to up-air seems to be somewhat of a kill confirm mixup now (probably not true with DI). Up-air deals 1.1% more damage for short hop, 1.2% for full hop, and kills Mario around 11% earlier on FD with no DI (out of a short hop). 11% earlier is pretty significant, it's a strong kill move for sure.

Back air getting some extra damage for the sweetspot is nice (1.1% short hop, 1.2% full hop), and the base knockback is increased for the sweetspot, I don't know if it kills earlier but I'd assume so? Seemed to kill fairly early when I played Corrin, at least.

Aerial pin is less laggy now, which is nice. Pink jump (ie the jump cancel) FAF down from 39 to 30, which is a big buff, making it a much safer option in general. The kicks have more knockback, a strong kick will kill Mario on FD at 98% with no DI, used to be 117%. Killing 19% earlier is very significant, I've gotten quite a few kills near the ledge sub-100%.

Overall, these buffs make Corrin's damage potential better (with fair, bair, and up-air all dealing a bit more damage), fair combo game a bit better, kill potential better, and pin safer. I would say the buffs are really potent and will move her up quite significantly in the tier lists. It's hard to say right now how far, but I'd say the buffs are quite significant. If I were to guess, I'd say mid-mid to high-mid right now. High tier might be stretching it, but maybe if people can lab some sick setups... But for high-mid tier or mid-mid tier seems more likely to me. Low-mid tier is plausible but I think she's a little stronger than that. I don't see her being low tier after these buffs.

On a personal note, I really hope Cosmos picks up Corrin again, at least as a secondary.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
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Well, I'm awaiting some video that compare the moves pre- and post-patch. It's quite hard to pin down how big these changes are by just reading it here and combo videos on Twitter have to be taken with a grain of salt everytime.

Still, first impression of this patch is more meh.
 
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
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Falco is the absolute winner this patch.

It's not just a quality of life fix; Sakurai gave him what he always needed in order to be on the same echelon as Fox and Wolf: a legitimate burst option that combos. Phantasm is now frame 13 with less than 30 frames of endlag, with more active frames.

He can threaten at a midrange distance and get big reward out of it. He may not be able to cross up on shield, but this allows him to chase more effectively. It's now truly in that unreactable range that make burst options such potent tools.

What's additionally wild is that they turned Dtilt into a legitimate poke and launcher. It's still -9 on hit with faster startup. It combos due to the new launch angle and gives his hurtbox a low profile.

Falco can now pressure shields and catch faster opponents for moving around on him. He already had the most ridiculous damage output in Ult, and now has two early Christmas presents.

I don't really care to speculate what tier he is in now, but he is at least at good as Fox, and probably as good as Wolf, depending on who you place higher.
 
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