Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Arthur97]

Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's wait and seeit in practice.

 

[Nate1080]

Let's not jump to conclusions. Let's wait and seeit in practice.

No one is saying he’s the best character or anything, just that he got better.

This tech might actually be practical because it’s not terribly hard to do, the applications are obvious and it provides noticeable benefit to his gameplay.

 

[Arthur97]

No one is saying he’s the best character or anything, just that he got better.

This tech might actually be practical because it’s not terribly hard to do, the applications are obvious and it provides noticeable benefit to his gameplay.

It's still important not to overhype things or to count your chickens before they hatch. Remember phantom footstooling a while back and how much it was hyped up for like a day or two? Let's see how it functions in the real world.

 

[Nate1080]

That’s fair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It will definitely redefine Terry's meta.

We in the Terrycord have already decided this is something you MUST master. It is too easy and too abusable not too.

Whether it shakes the Ultimate meta remains to be seen.

 

[Cheryl~]

I'm holding my breath: too many times I've seen these character-specific tech not actually come up at high or top level even by their top players. We'll have to see if Riddles takes to using this effectively.

 

[Arthur97]

Even if it is big for Terry, it seems unlikely that something that affect three fighters (and apparently only one of them significantly) is going to redefine the game's meta. Maybe if it somehow makes Terry top tier then it might shake his counterplay, but it seems just unlikely to have too far reaching an impact.

 

[Nate1080]

Whether or not it would make Terry top tier or anything is anyone’s guess.

What it can do is make his approach options better, make approaching him scary and easy OoS options, as well as improves his recovery.


Also, not only did I discover you can do it in mid air (not just during hitstun) you can do it during any move Terry does. For example, you can hit an opponent with Crackshoot and during that move you can Coil (or even DT Coil if you’re fast enough) or hit your opponent with Jab and then Coil. Essentially, it’s easy for Terry to hide when they Coil. I’d be very shocked if this doesn’t end up being a part of Terry’s gameplan, it’s easy to do, easy to hide, cleans up his inputs and just makes Terry feel more seamless.

This is probably the only character specific tech in Ultimate that’s real imo, since it’s butt easy to do, is practical and actually provides noticeable benefit overall to the character in question.

 

[Lacrimosa]

It's by far not the only character specific stuff (-> Shulk for example) but this was just recently discovered.

 

[ZephyrZ]

You know, I don't think a tech has to completely redefine the meta in order to be worth talking about. Sometimes in a really close game even the slightest advantage can tilt the scales a little in your favor.

Sometimes that little advantage is knowing how to perform a character specific tech, and sometimes it's knowing about a character specific tech so it doesn't catch you off guard when its used against you.

 

[NotLiquid]

Terry was already one of the deadliest whiff-punishers in the game. The fact that he now has easier and more reliable access to his command specials but also the ability to shave input frames is going to make him so much scarier once the tech has been optimized. It's a tad limited of course, since FTilt and DTilt are essential neutral moves, but I'd consider them fair tradeoffs in the event that you utilize this tech. Keep in mind that reaping the rewards of an instant command special/super move is merely half the story; it also means Terry now has an increased amount of options when it comes to conditioning the opponent. Players will have to be aware that Terry can throw out a deadly move at any moment's notice.

This stuff is already looking like essential knowledge. Does it remedy his flaws? Not necessarily, but it does strengthen the things he was already really good at doing at a micro level, and in some cases that kind of stuff matters more than you'd suspect. Guess I better start getting used to claw grip play. Either that or start playing on a Pro Controller.

 

[Arthur97]

Yes, this may very well reshape Terry's meta (or at the very least improve it), but shaking the game's meta is another story. At most, Terry becomes top tier (and potentially brings this thing enough attention to get patched out) and playing around him and this tech becomes more relevant, but it's probably not really going to faze the rest of the meta game (outside of what impact it has on Ryu and Ken if any), and odds are he's not going to become the next Brawl Meta Knight with this so that a fighter is made or broken by how they fight Terry. I guess that may count as shaking the game's meta depending on your definition, but still, it shouldn't be overstated. Something that might be nice to remember going forward. Approach with caution.

Though, even with this, I'm not entirely convinced he'll even make top tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Guys don't claw. Don't do all THAT lol. Just get a pro controller. I am about to buy a new one.

BTW no one should worry that Terry might dominate or w/e.

This game is full of easy mode gorilla characters that honestly take far less effort. This tech will help the hardcore Terry mains for sure though.

To clarify, you can do it during any move or attack. Any recovery animation as well. If you double tap the cstick then hold it, you will gain full access to ALL of your controls. Even if you do not use a pro controller or claw method you should still double tap so you gain full access to shield. If you use a GC controller you just need to get used to letting the cstick go and resetting it as necessary.

Ultimately it all comes down to match-ups. Some characters do not care about this. Such as the Links.

But there are others that care ALOT. Yoshi and Mario are prime examples. They rely on alot of full jump projectiles to create brickwalls , set-up offense and to safely disengage while they regroup. This tech denies all of that. Terry simply runs forward and if sees the projectile you jump and tackle or knuckle depending on the spacing and positioning. Peach also suffers from this. She cannot float freely nor can she safely get in to start her devastating combos. She has to take real risks to get going.

I am excited to see how the different characters can counter this.

I am currently of the opinion that Terry just might smack Peach thanks to this. And if Terry's match-ups swing more towards his favor vs relevant characters, then it would give him a more permanent place at the high level meta.

So the idea of "shake the meta" isn't just a character being utterly busted. Tech can have effects that reverberate throughout the entire cast and ultimately change how that character is played and viewed.

But it depends on the tech. What makes this good is for one thing it's really easy.

I challenge anyone to watch those vids and try it themselves. You will have it down in less than 2 hours. 3 if you are drunk.

The next thing is that it has realistic applications. It's not like some tech that gives a small momentum boost or is only useful in a certain situation. This tech acts as an amp for what Terry already wants to do. He gets faster command specials, he gets a stronger neutral, he gets a better recovery, he gets better reactionary punishes and he gets better set-play.

That is not a small thing.

And again...it's WAY too easy to do it.

I rarely ever get excited for tech. I am a fundmanetals guy and I feel this communities obsession with tech is one of the reasons why many people plateau in smash games. especially in Melee. But as shown this tech amps Terry's foundation. It's not some icing on the cake like alot of tech is.

 

[Arthur97]

I guess our definition of shakes the meta varries. I would take it as something that alters the entire meta game, not just one fighter's standing in high level play. I suppose it might lower the top tiers a bit if one of their matchups got significantly worse, but still.

That said, I doubt if instant command inputs was something intended so that may put it on a potential chopping block if they can find a way to patch it out.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A few days ago, Ultimate Naifu Wars 11 occurred. It is not that big of a tournament, but here are the results:

1st: Epic_Gabriel
2nd: tAnglelt
3rd: MkLeo
4th: Ned
5th: Sharp
5th: Frido
7th: Yez
7th: Br1 AV
9th: Riddles
9th: E
9th: Gen
9th: Ravenking
13th: MiLe
13th: Dusty_Carpet
13th: holopup
13th: Lui$
17th: MattBro
17th: Mr. E
17th: Hungrybox
17th: Kola
17th: Luisfer
17th: Pandarian
17th: Ocean (not the Japan R.O.B. player)
17th: Rickles

 

[DougEfresh]

I guess our definition of shakes the meta varries. I would take it as something that alters the entire meta game, not just one fighter's standing in high level play. I suppose it might lower the top tiers a bit if one of their matchups got significantly worse, but still.

That said, I doubt if instant command inputs was something intended so that may put it on a potential chopping block if they can find a way to patch it out.

I agree with you that the tech is in its early stages and we should give it time to see how it develops and gets optimized before we draw any definitive conclusions. That said, I also agree with what others have already stated that this has many practical applications for Terry in actual matches with a low learning curve. These two factors are extremely important (usually these things are either only one or the other, and sometimes even a fatal combination of high learning curve and too situation-dependent to make any use of the tech), and because of that, it's only natural to strongly speculate the immediate benefit this has to Terry across the board in his match ups.

Also, when we talk about the "meta", it seems to me that for better or worse, we largely focus on only the highest levels of play at the exclusion of lower levels, and if we maintain that this is the proper definition of the term and this new tech for Terry does give him a tangibly easier time against many high and top tier characters and the top players who play them, doesn't this fall within how you characterize your phrase "shaking the meta"? If this is notable enough to adjust the gameplan and playstyle of many characters in order for them to now deal with Terry like I suspect it will, I think it very much does fall within that scope. It need not have a nearly universal impact on the rest of the cast or cause drastic changes to the perception of the character by the smash community at large (like Maister and or Wrath and with the respective hate waves about them that have become all the more apparent as they've risen up at top levels of play) to make a discernable shift in the overall meta.

TL; DR: I agree with your claim of using caution here, but I also think it's easy to see how this tech will likely become a notable shift in the meta long term because of Terry's improved consistency with COIL/DTCOIL and its ease of use. Also, unless the consequences of this tech are somehow found to be unintended in a sufficiently negative way, I don't see any reason whatsoever for this to be patched out (and don't be surprised if you eventually see more Terry players, especially online, now that this tech makes his command inputs much easier and more consistent overall).

 

[Arthur97]

I agree with you that the tech is in its early stages and we should give it time to see how it develops and gets optimized before we draw any definitive conclusions. That said, I also agree with what others have already stated that this has many practical applications for Terry in actual matches with a low learning curve. These two factors are extremely important (usually these things are either only one or the other, and sometimes even a fatal combination of high learning curve and too situation-dependent to make any use of the tech), and because of that, it's only natural to strongly speculate the immediate benefit this has to Terry across the board in his match ups.

Also, when we talk about the "meta", it seems to me that for better or worse, we largely focus on only the highest levels of play at the exclusion of lower levels, and if we maintain that this is the proper definition of the term and this new tech for Terry does give him a tangibly easier time against many high and top tier characters and the top players who play them, doesn't this fall within how you characterize your phrase "shaking the meta"? If this is notable enough to adjust the gameplan and playstyle of many characters in order for them to now deal with Terry like I suspect it will, I think it very much does fall within that scope. It need not have a nearly universal impact on the rest of the cast or cause drastic changes to the perception of the character by the smash community at large (like Maister and or Wrath and with the respective hate waves about them that have become all the more apparent as they've risen up at top levels of play) to make a discernable shift in the overall meta.

TL; DR: I agree with your claim of using caution here, but I also think it's easy to see how this tech will likely become a notable shift in the meta long term because of Terry's improved consistency with COIL/DTCOIL and its ease of use. Also, unless the consequences of this tech are somehow found to be unintended in a sufficiently negative way, I don't see any reason whatsoever for this to be patched out (and don't be surprised if you eventually see more Terry players, especially online, now that this tech makes his command inputs much easier and more consistent overall).

Again, drastic changes to Terry and Terry counterplay, maybe, but how is this going to affect any other matchup against any other fighter that isn't Terry? Seems like a localized change to me; maybe even a shake up to his tier placement. Again, unless he somehow becomes super oppressive which I don't see happening, or he just completely shuts down a top tier or two, it doesn't seem that it will completely change the game. Again, it may go to the definition, but similarly to one fighter getting good buffs, is this really going to greatly affect the meta game as a whole? If you consider any change to the macro-organism that is the meta game, then, sure, this may be considered a shake up, but it's not like it's wave dashing where it's going to severely alter the way the game is played.

As for the patching, they seem to care about functioning as intended (sometimes), so instant command inputs as well as easier command inputs seems to kind of go against the design. Especially if he starts to become super obnoxious because of it. The problem to me would be more so how to patch it out. Remember, these are the same people who patched Daisy's turnips to be identical to Peach's presumably because they weren't supposed to be different. They were not as intended apparently.

Granted, you can also have stuff like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's up specials which apparently still don't work right.

 

[Krysco]

Something worth labbing most likely for all characters:

TL;DW because of drastic hurtbox shifts and general bodyblocking, it's possible for a move to be safe on shield even if it should be punishable looking at frame data alone. The examples shown were Sheik doing an unspaced utilt on Squirtle's shield and then dashing back and avoiding his grab by 1 frame, Byleth poorly spacing a nair on Mario's shield and dtilting to avoid his grab by 1 frame and Roy being able to sweetspot space his jab on Joker's shield and dash back to avoid his grab, fair and usmash and if done from the back, dtilt can be used instead to avoid a bair.

Actually reminds me of a post NairWizard made a while back mentioning how the slight frame advantage differences between Roy and Chrom's moves can matter. Chrom shouldn't have that same luxury Roy does with his jab since it's -10 compared to Roy's -9.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You know, I don't think a tech has to completely redefine the meta in order to be worth talking about. Sometimes in a really close game, even the slightest advantage can tilt the scales a little in your favor.

Sometimes that little advantage is knowing how to perform a character-specific tech, and sometimes it's knowing about a character-specific tech so it doesn't catch you off guard when it's used against you.

This should be framed on the front page.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Something worth labbing most likely for all characters:

TL;DW because of drastic hurtbox shifts and general bodyblocking, it's possible for a move to be safe on shield even if it should be punishable looking at frame data alone. The examples shown were Sheik doing an unspaced utilt on Squirtle's shield and then dashing back and avoiding his grab by 1 frame, Byleth poorly spacing a nair on Mario's shield and dtilting to avoid his grab by 1 frame and Roy being able to sweetspot space his jab on Joker's shield and dash back to avoid his grab, fair and usmash and if done from the back, dtilt can be used instead to avoid a bair.

Actually reminds me of a post NairWizard made a while back mentioning how the slight frame advantage differences between Roy and Chrom's moves can matter. Chrom shouldn't have that same luxury Roy does with his jab since it's -10 compared to Roy's -9.

Now this is something pretty important to know for your character and hurts those with bad OOS even more when it applies in that matchup. Frames are literally everything, remember that folks when you want to make something faster (or slower). Also can we discuss how bad standing grab ranges are in Ultimate aside like two blessed characters? This works also in part because grab ranges are so bad lol.

RE: Terry stuff - It probably is meta changing, for the Terry Meta. I don’t think anyone means this will change ultimates meta why would it? However it doesn’t take a Terry player (which I am not) to realize how having faster access to his input specials are nothing but beneficial for Terry’s meta. Input specials are stronger for the reason they take just a bit more time to preform over B specials and can be misinputed. Being able to remove input error and make them just as fast? We just saw how much one frame matters above, you give an already strong whiff punisher with strong burst options access to those options faster it’s only going to help.

 

[Arthur97]

Again though, making inputs just as fast and still being stronger seems like something they would want being there, but at the same time, I can't predict what the balance team is going to do. Still, removing most if not all of the downside with relative ease does not seem like it was intended. So, while it is obviously beneficial to Terry, it may not be permanent, but it might. Obviously Terry players will take advantage of it in the meantime.

 

[DougEfresh]

Again though, making inputs just as fast and still being stronger seems like something they would want being there, but at the same time, I can't predict what the balance team is going to do. Still, removing most if not all of the downside with relative ease does not seem like it was intended. So, while it is obviously beneficial to Terry, it may not be permanent, but it might. Obviously Terry players will take advantage of it in the meantime.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but to me it sounds like you're just parroting the same points over and over and insist on downplaying the influence the tech could have at this point. None of us here have tried to make this new discovery out as some revolutionary change for Ultimate and its entire cast, you're the only one bringing up the COIL/DTCOIL discussion in this context at all and making it seem like something insignificant at best and negative at worst. You also seem to assume that Terry doesn't already have shortcomings elsewhere that help balance him out if you think being able to do the command inputs faster this way will remove so many of their "downsides" that you think things will work in such an unintended fashion to cause them to patch it out somehow to uphold the "balance" of the character. Granted, the dev team has sometimes made some very questionable balance change decisions in the past so crazier things have happened, but unless there's some major glitch associated with the tech, I just don't see this being something that'll get wiped out from existence in a future patch (though I'm no fortune teller).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems our kin in the land of the rising sun have caught wind of the tech.

https://t.co/IZMwDam9Yr

 

[Arthur97]

Maybe I'm wrong here, but to me it sounds like you're just parroting the same points over and over and insist on downplaying the influence the tech could have at this point. None of us here have tried to make this new discovery out as some revolutionary change for Ultimate and its entire cast, you're the only one bringing up the COIL/DTCOIL discussion in this context at all and making it seem like something insignificant at best and negative at worst. You also seem to assume that Terry doesn't already have shortcomings elsewhere that help balance him out if you think being able to do the command inputs faster this way will remove so many of their "downsides" that you think things will work in such an unintended fashion to cause them to patch it out somehow to uphold the "balance" of the character. Granted, the dev team has sometimes made some very questionable balance change decisions in the past so crazier things have happened, but unless there's some major glitch associated with the tech, I just don't see this being something that'll get wiped out from existence in a future patch (though I'm no fortune teller).

It's not a negative for Terry. Of course it's good for him, but it may not be what's intended. That's the point, and it's probably more important than you think. Again, the Peach and Daisy thing. Good or bad, this would seem to go against Terry's design philosophy (why give him inputs at all if he's supposed to just be able to do them instantly?). That's why it might get patched out. Just because it doesn't break the game doesn't mean they're going to like it. And we're not talking about getting a few extra pixels on your dash grab, this is something that makes him significantly easier to use while negating most of the downsides of command specials. Yes, he has flaws in other areas, and, no, he's probably not suddenly top tier, but making command inputs basically free would seem to be a flaw in the design. Something they might try and remedy.

Yes, if you main Terry you should learn it, but don't be surprised or complain if it gets removed down the line.

As for significance. It's very significant. For one fighter. Not the whole game.

 

[DougEfresh]

It's not a negative for Terry. Of course it's good for him, but it may not be what's intended. That's the point, and it's probably more important than you think. Again, the Peach and Daisy thing. Good or bad, this would seem to go against Terry's design philosophy (why give him inputs at all if he's supposed to just be able to do them instantly?). That's why it might get patched out. Just because it doesn't break the game doesn't mean they're going to like it. And we're not talking about getting a few extra pixels on your dash grab, this is something that makes him significantly easier to use while negating most of the downsides of command specials. Yes, he has flaws in other areas, and, no, he's probably not suddenly top tier, but making command inputs basically free would seem to be a flaw in the design. Something they might try and remedy.

Yes, if you main Terry you should learn it, but don't be surprised or complain if it gets removed down the line.

As for significance. It's very significant. For one fighter. Not the whole game.

What's really bothering me here is that you're choosing to keep focusing on how this could be patched out and also keep putting words in our mouths about how big we think the discovery of this tech is (multiple people here, including myself, have already said that this has the most dramatic impact on Terry himself by far) instead of trying to actually participate in a positive and constructive discussion about this (I don't even play Terry, I have no horse in this race but I found it interesting to talk about nonetheless). It comes off as contrarian and negative, even if you're not wrong with all that you're saying and your intentions when you first chimed in on this were genuine enough. Anyway, we're clearly going in circles here and it's starting to give me a headache, so I'll accept we'll remain at an impasse and move on. Good day to ya!

 

[Arthur97]

I'm mostly responding to the one that said it waits to be seen if it shakes Ultimate's meta as if that were even remotely likely when talking about the meta game as a whole. And, yes, I am being more negative, but sometimes it may help to hear the other side to keep from going too positive. This may not last. Enjoy it while its there, but this could potentially be on their radar to remove considering how (not so much the extent) it impacts Terry. I'm just honestly not sure how it could be removed.

 

[Rizen]

A Arthur97 is just saying his opinion and he has a point. It's important to be cautiously optimistic about the new Terry tech because it is the kind of thing that might be patched out. Obviously it will help Terry but I'm skeptical it will rocket him into top tier. I've seen a ton of new techs, like all kinds of bomb sliding in Brawl for Link, and you never know how important they'll end up in practice. Bombsliding didn't get Link out of the bottom "Hyrule Tier". We've also seen several characters get buffs but not rise in the slightest, like Corrin and Mewtwo. I'm waiting to see how it's actually used.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm mostly responding to the one that said it waits to be seen if it shakes Ultimate's meta as if that were even remotely likely. And, yes, I am being more negative, but sometimes you need to hear the other side. This may not last. Enjoy it while its there, but this could potentially be on their radar to remove considering how (not so much the extent) it impacts Terry. I'm just honestly not sure how it could be removed.

I can think of a few ways to get rid of it.

The c-stick essentially "steals" the command input.

So they could code the game to hold the input for less time or code it so the cstick never interacts with command inputs at all.

I think it might be a bit of a coding nightmare though. Just based on how the buffer system works, how FGC characters have their own unique programming, and how the cstick influences directions and inputs.

If they find an easy way to patch it, I am sure it will happen though.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Seriously, who in this thread is claiming Terry is top tier all of a sudden?

Anyway if Icies still have their desynch combos and Zelda has her displaced phantoms I doubt this'll get patched. Sure we can never be certain but this isn't a glitch, it's a quirk of the game's engine and as long as it's not gamebreaking it'll probably be too much of a pain for them to fix for them to do anything about it.

 

[Arthur97]

I can think of a few ways to get rid of it.

The c-stick essentially "steals" the command input.

So they could code the game to hold the input for less time or code it so the cstick never interacts with command inputs at all.

I think it might be a bit of a coding nightmare though. Just based on how the buffer system works, how FGC characters have their own unique programming, and how the cstick influences directions and inputs.

If they find an easy way to patch it, I am sure it will happen though.

Yeah, the difficulty of getting rid of it seems to be its greatest chance of staying. Or maybe they just won't care since who can predict what they're thinking. On one hand, Peach and Daisy, on the other hand Falcon/Dark Dive. Or deciding to actually change Lucina's moves and not Marth's corresponding ones, but at least in that case she's substantially better than him (at least perceived).

And, I'm not sure anyone ever said he'd be top tier, but I brought it up as really the main way it would significantly alter Ultimate's meta as him becoming a fighter that others live or die by how well they do against him like Brawl Meta Knight. A certainly unlikely if not impossible at the moment scenario.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I can think of a few ways to get rid of it.

The c-stick essentially "steals" the command input.

So they could code the game to hold the input for less time or code it so the cstick never interacts with command inputs at all.

I think it might be a bit of a coding nightmare though. Just based on how the buffer system works, how FGC characters have their own unique programming, and how the cstick influences directions and inputs.

If they find an easy way to patch it, I am sure it will happen though.

There is actually a good reason to why this tech works, and it is tied to an inherent problem with the game.
The C-stick in Ultimate acts as a macro that combines an "A" button press with a directional input, which makes spacing aerials really obnoxious.

So when Terry does, for example, C-stick downwards and holds it, the game thinks Terry is holding down and retaining the charge, because the C-stick has influence over the character's movement in Ultimate.

So if the devs fix the C-stick issues that has plagued the game since launch, there is a likely possibility that the FGC characters' new toy will go with it.
However if they don't fix the issue with the C-stick, the new tech is likely never going to get patched.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

This topic hasn't had a post in 2 days. Just to add some discussion I noticed that my pokemon trainer's pokemon have a position where they're weakest at. They seem to do terribly when their opponent is directly underneath them, conversely the weaker pokemon seem to do better when the opponent is directly above them or nearly so. Squirtle's low commitment aerials, charizard's up smash and up tilt, and ivysaur's bullet seed and upair all seem to work best when the opponent is directly overhead.

 

[ZephyrZ]

This topic hasn't had a post in 2 days. Just to add some discussion I noticed that my pokemon trainer's pokemon have a position where they're weakest at. They seem to do terribly when their opponent is directly underneath them, conversely the weaker pokemon seem to do better when the opponent is directly above them or nearly so. Squirtle's low commitment aerials, charizard's up smash and up tilt, and ivysaur's bullet seed and upair all seem to work best when the opponent is directly overhead.

That's true for all characters to some degree. Being forced directly above your opponent is a typical disadvantage state, and being underneath your opponent is typically considered advantage. Characters above their opponents typically only have a couple of moves that hit below them at best (usually Nairs and Dairs), and are limited to just one air dodge or double jump until they touch the ground. A character on the ground underneath them has quick access to all of their grounded anti-airs, wiff punish tools, shield and aerials. There's more depth to these states then just that (tomahawking is still an option for aerial opponents, for example, and many characters have ways to adjust their momentum) but this is a pretty well understood principle among competitive players, and it's something you definitely want to keep taking advantage of.

I get what you're saying in regards to PT specifically though. They do have a very strong juggling game. Squirtle can get follow ups off his poor-man's Mario Uair, get easy (ableit low) damage and improved stage control with a quick fair/bair or wiff punish landings with a dash attack or dash grab for a larger reward. Ivysaur has that infamous, spammable Uair but also can punish at an upwards angle with Vine Whip. You typically don't want to juggle with Bullet Seed though, that's a very high commitment and narrow move that leaves you open if you miss. Typically a lot of the Pokemon Trainers who use that move use it for the starting hitbox that starts behind Ivysaur, and only rarely. Charizard of course is great at pressuring landings from the ground with his fantastic ground speed and amazing U-smash (both raw and OoS), but he can also take to the air with Nair (which starts above his head) or more niche Uair when he wants to. Put that together with their combined ledgetrapping and edgeguarding capabilities, and I'd say PT as a whole has a very flexible and powerful advantage state.

 

[Nemesis561]

This forum is pretty dead nowadays. Heads up, some local tournaments should start opening up pretty soon, albeit with limited number of entrants. In my region, they're planning on re opening next weekend. Btw I'm not saying I agree with it, just stating facts. So we should soon have some VODs to watch that aren't online

 

[Guynamednelson]

This forum is pretty dead nowadays. Heads up, some local tournaments should start opening up pretty soon, albeit with limited number of entrants. In my region, they're planning on re opening next weekend. Btw I'm not saying I agree with it, just stating facts. So we should soon have some VODs to watch that aren't online

I don't expect it to be the case for me. My locals started at 6 in a venue that for now closes at 7.

 

[SwagGuy99]

ESAM made a list of the best of each move the other day.

jab: Chrom
ftilt: Lucas
dtilt: ROB
utilt: Snake
dash attack: Snake
F-smash: Mario
D-smash: G&W
U-smash: G&W
Nair: Shulk
Fair: Pikachu
Dair: ROB
Bair: Pikachu
Uair: G&W
Neutral B: Pikachu
Side B: Sonic
Down B: ZSS
Up B: G&W
Zair: ZSS

I heavily disagree with a few certain moves on this list.

• I think the best F-Smash is not . His is very good, due to it's speed, power, and range, but there are betters ones. and have the 6 best f-smashes in my opinion, and I'd lean towards 's being the best. It's not the fastest of this group, but it's the safest (it's only -6 on shield), one of the most disjointed, and it's incredibly strong. It's a large part of 's ground game in Ultimate and I feel like it's probably the best one.
• For up-smash, I'd put over and possibly and as well. 's has way too much utility for it not to be the best one in my opinion. It's a kill option, ledgetrapping option, covers landings, covers platforms, and has a great hitbox.
• N-air is a bit debatable, but I'd say that 's is more useful in the context of his kit than it would be on a lot of characters. It's (IMO) because of Speed Art and Buster Art allowing him to combo off it easier, because otherwise, while this move does cover a lot of space, is hard to punish, and has a long lasting hitbox, it doesn't do too much. I'm not really sure who has the best n-air, but I'd still lean towards , even after the nerf, but there are other characters who could be contenders as well like and .
• The best neutral-b is Monado Arts. I don't care what ESAM says about T-Jolt 'winning more matchups.' Monado Arts allows any character to adapt much better in any given situation and gives them escape options that no other character has. It can change the way you use certain moves entirely and make them far more useful than they otherwise would be. And even if Monado Arts didn't exist, I'd still lean towards Charge Shot and Shadow Ball being better than T-Jolt as well, due to their ability to cover options and camp while having actual kill power (something T-Jolt lacks).
• The best Z-air is 's. It lacks the recovery potential of the others, but it's better in pretty much every other way. It's an edgeguarding tool, it has good range, it ledgetraps, it combos into grab, it combos into kill moves, it covers landing, it's fairly safe, and the hitbox stays out for 54 frames. The only z-air that even comes close to being this good, is 's but only if he is able to DJC it and use it as a combo tool. Otherwise, even his is nowhere near as good as 's.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Neutral B: Pikachu

Not Monado Arts.

That's just flat wrong.

 

[Arthur97]

Would you really consider G&W to have the best up air either? I mean, yes, it can be an annoying juggle tool, but...what else does it do? It may kill, eventually, but calling it the best seems a little...suspect.

 

[Rizen]

ESAM made a list of the best of each move the other day.

jab: Chrom
ftilt: Lucas
dtilt: ROB
utilt: Snake
dash attack: Snake
F-smash: Mario
D-smash: G&W
U-smash: G&W
Nair: Shulk
Fair: Pikachu
Dair: ROB
Bair: Pikachu
Uair: G&W
Neutral B: Pikachu
Side B: Sonic
Down B: ZSS
Up B: G&W
Zair: ZSS

I heavily disagree with a few certain moves on this list.

• I think the best F-Smash is not . His is very good, due to it's speed, power, and range, but there are betters ones. and have the 6 best f-smashes in my opinion, and I'd lean towards 's being the best. It's not the fastest of this group, but it's the safest (it's only -6 on shield), one of the most disjointed, and it's incredibly strong. It's a large part of 's ground game in Ultimate and I feel like it's probably the best one.
• For up-smash, I'd put over and possibly and as well. 's has way too much utility for it not to be the best one in my opinion. It's a kill option, ledgetrapping option, covers landings, covers platforms, and has a great hitbox.
• N-air is a bit debatable, but I'd say that 's is more useful in the context of his kit than it would be on a lot of characters. It's (IMO) because of Speed Art and Buster Art allowing him to combo off it easier, because otherwise, while this move does cover a lot of space, is hard to punish, and has a long lasting hitbox, it doesn't do too much. I'm not really sure who has the best n-air, but I'd still lean towards , even after the nerf, but there are other characters who could be contenders as well like and .
• The best neutral-b is Monado Arts. I don't care what ESAM says about T-Jolt 'winning more matchups.' Monado Arts allows any character to adapt much better in any given situation and gives them escape options that no other character has. It can change the way you use certain moves entirely and make them far more useful than they otherwise would be. And even if Monado Arts didn't exist, I'd still lean towards Charge Shot and Shadow Ball being better than T-Jolt as well, due to their ability to cover options and camp while having actual kill power (something T-Jolt lacks).
• The best Z-air is 's. It lacks the recovery potential of the others, but it's better in pretty much every other way. It's an edgeguarding tool, it has good range, it ledgetraps, it combos into grab, it combos into kill moves, it covers landing, it's fairly safe, and the hitbox stays out for 54 frames. The only z-air that even comes close to being this good, is 's but only if he is able to DJC it and use it as a combo tool. Otherwise, even his is nowhere near as good as 's.

You can see ESAM's pika bias in this but the premise its self is flawed. You can't judge moves in a vacuum and different moves serve different purposes. Utilt for example: Snake's is the best for killing. It's f6 and has good power and hitboxes. But if you want to build damage Fox's Utilt is f3 and combos into its self and other moves. Then there's also the element of controlling space where huge Utilts like Link's or Shulk's are best. It's too much of comparing apples to oranges to say one's distinctly better.
Then there's the issue of complimenting a character's moveset. Shulk's Bair is not a bad move on him, even though it only pokes strait out in a line, because he also has a Fair that covers a huge area; unlike Byleth who's F/Bairs are identical (or Belmont too). This ends up being a weakness in Bylith's option coverage. If a character can make up for one move's lacking with another it works out. Fox does better with his juggling Utilt than he would with Snake's killing Utilt because Fox has a great Usmash to kill with instead. On the contrary, Zelda has an identical B/Fair and lacks a good juggling aerial. Zelda would be much better off with something like Wolf's Fair. And you have to take things like mobility into account. Wario has terrible normal moves but they work on him because his amazing air mobility. On other characters his aerials would be awful.

Lists like this just don't work.

 

[SwagGuy99]

You can see ESAM's pika bias in this but the premise its self is flawed. You can't judge moves in a vacuum and different moves serve different purposes. Utilt for example: Snake's is the best for killing. It's f6 and has good power and hitboxes. But if you want to build damage Fox's Utilt is f3 and combos into its self and other moves. Then there's also the element of controlling space where huge Utilts like Link's or Shulk's are best. It's too much of comparing apples to oranges to say one's distinctly better.
Then there's the issue of complimenting a character's moveset. Shulk's Bair is not a bad move on him, even though it only pokes strait out in a line, because he also has a Fair that covers a huge area; unlike Byleth who's F/Bairs are identical (or Belmont too). This ends up being a weakness in Bylith's option coverage. If a character can make up for one move's lacking with another it works out. Fox does better with his juggling Utilt than he would with Snake's killing Utilt because Fox has a great Usmash to kill with instead. On the contrary, Zelda has an identical B/Fair and lacks a good juggling aerial. Zelda would be much better off with something like Wolf's Fair. And you have to take things like mobility into account. Wario has terrible normal moves but they work on him because his amazing air mobility. On other characters his aerials would be awful.

Lists like this just don't work.

I feel like a list like this can work, but it should be established whether moves are being ranked in a vacuum or if it's being ranked in the context of the character's kit because moves like Snake's f-smash or f-air need to be judged totally differently in the context of Snake's kits than they would in a vacuum. These moves are somewhat useful in the context of Snake's specific kit but outside of Snake's kit, most characters may lose a valuable combo tool or a much faster safer f-smash that doesn't require them to set up into if their current moves were replaced with these.

Then there's the buissiness of taking into account special properties such as tough guy, MP, Ink and other character specific abilities. Hero's side-b uses MP but outside of Hero's kit, nobody has access to MP. So is it bad in a vacuum because nobody can use the move or do we just not count that it uses MP? Or do we just rank how good it is in the context of Hero's kit? Same applies to Inkling with her Ink.


ESAM specified none of this which makes critiquing this list hard in areas, but I'm assuming this list is being ranked in a vacuum since his list makes even less sense if we assume he's ranking it in the context of the kit of the character the move belongs to.

Lists like this need to have pretty strict guidelines to make much sense, and I feel like it's easier overall to rank moves in the context of the specific character's kit that the move belongs to rather than in a vacuum, but that's just my opinion.