Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KirbySquad101]

's UAir, FAir, and BAir are all overwhelmingly absurd attacks that are - to be frank - nerfworthy in their own right:

- FAir: Frame 9, -3 on block, disjointed, leads into combos, nearly impossible to punish if spaced well enough; it lets Palutena win neutral way too easy for the reward you get off of it and how little risk there is to just throwing the thing out.

- UAir: Massively disjointed, pretty much lasts forever, beats out almost any attacking option from opponents above her, can kill absurdly early due to Palu's insane jump height, forces players sometimes to make really bad choices just to avoid dying at 70%. It lets Palutena oppress characters in disadvantage so easily, and thanks to the UTilt buff, just trying to land against her is even more of a nightmare now.

- BAir: Frame 8, -5 on block, even more disjointed than her other attacks due to partial invincibility, nearly impossible to punish if spaced well enough, stuffs out most buttons, and on top of everything else, kills. The fact that the move already would've still been incredibly solid if it wasn't invincible is an utter testament to how ridiculous it is. Tbh, I'd go as far as to say it's more important to her than her NAir in certain match-ups, and it's one of the prime reasons why approaching her is such a chore for most characters, even high/top tier threats like and .

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I would still say it’s disingenuous to discredit how much all of her moves aside nair have shot her up in viability. Her specials definitely played a large role in it.

Auto reticle and explosive flame being useable gives her a means of preventing people from playing safely as mid range is where you want to be so she can’t nair train you to 50. Smash 4 Palu had a solid gameplan when her opponents weren’t able to just stay at this range but her problem was she had no real way to make opponents stay out of this range. Her new projectile and upgrade auto reticle accomplish this goal for her. You want to hold back and not engage? Her specials will just eat at your shield until it’s low enough for her to come in and threaten shield pokes. In addition explosive flame gives her a kill move from distance that also traps landings when your trying to escape from her massive up air, forces you to do something off stage when it’s thrown out in the path your drifting to and even helps when trying to recover as it can occupy the space at ledge limiting two framing opportunities.

In fact aside her down/Fsmash and sometimes her F/U tilt (which are by no means without use) I would go as far to say the rest of her moves are above average or better at what you would want them to do. Down tilt being slow and lingering turns it from a neutral tool to a ridiculous two frame option that reminds me of Fox’s up tilt two frame from S4 with where it pops opponents. Bait and dash attack give her zone breakers that further compliment her ability to prevent opponents from playing that mid range game that was so effective against her in 4. Up smash hits below the ledge for some reason and reminds me of a discount Power Geyser that just complete denies attempts at using vertical space with a massive front facing hitbox, if a bit slow. Heck she gets a moderately strong back throw for stock caps coupled with a rather generous grab distance for your average character in ultimate for some reason.

If her nair is the engine, the rest of her moves are the wheels, doors, etc, they all have made her as good as she is.

 

[BitBitio]

Yeah Palu pretty much plays like a zone breaker with ridiculous combos, edgeguarding, and confirms. Her nair is great even with the nerfs but doesn’t make the character good on its own. If you copy-pasted it onto she would be better but honestly the character would still be bad. It’s only one move. Palu only being good now thanks to her nair? No way. That’s just Twitter myths and Quickplay salt.

Also, when is Frostbite?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Also, when is Frostbite?

Two weekends from now, on Feb 21st-23rd.
It will be the first supermajor where patch 7.0 will take center-stage (unless they release 7.1 from now till then).

To go on a tangent here, so far, the only character I have seen so far that has gotten notably improved results from 7.0 thus so far is .
I would argue that while the buffs are helpful, the main thing the buffs did really is give more confidence to Cloud players. It did work wonders though.
All the other characters that has been notably buffed didn't really get their results improved much. and did well at Sumabato SP 12 (although it is nothing too unusual for TLink), but it may be a one and off thing, as most Japan upsets tend to go.
The two outliers is and , the former of which already has great results prior to the buffs, and the latter's results are heavily dependent on the activity on her top players.

Who knows, this may all change with Frostbite.


Now speaking of 7.1, I predict that this patch will arrive not too far away now.
The main thing I am expecting it to fix is some bug fixes/exploits with Byleth, particularly the 0-death on , as well as instantly breaking out of up B.

 

[BitBitio]

Xcal won a C-tier with him. I’d say he and have gotten the best results post-patch thus far.

7.1 will kill replays I bet, even though 7.0 did not.

 

[meleebrawler]

If every character got one major flaw that they have which one do you think would become a serious threat? Personally I say if got more weight without sacrificing anything else he might become a good contender. Not saying he'd be an absolute menace but I think he'd gain more respect. is also there when I think about it, if he got sword fix he'd be pretty good.

I scoff at the notion that changing weight will have any significant impact on viability. You'd need to make massive changes to see a real difference, and even then it's a double-edged sword that can make more combos work on you, and you need a ton of it before the survivability benefits outweigh the combo susceptibility.

It's also one of the least interesting changes you can make. Buffs to moves can garner interest by opening up new possibilities, but only changing weight isn't really going to sway opinions.

 

[TennisBall]

I scoff at the notion that changing weight will have any significant impact on viability. You'd need to make massive changes to see a real difference, and even then it's a double-edged sword that can make more combos work on you, and you need a ton of it before the survivability benefits outweigh the combo susceptibility.

It's also one of the least interesting changes you can make. Buffs to moves can garner interest by opening up new possibilities, but only changing weight isn't really going to sway opinions.

In some cases weight buffs would be extremely nice.
Sure it might not completely sway the opinion of a character, but if characters like and got big enough weight buffs to something along the lines of like 's weight they would love it.

 

[Nobie]

Byleth doesn't have anything that would make them top tier, but I find the mindset needed to play Byleth well can be so hard to get to, especially if you're accustomed to more aggressive characters. They play a really complicated spacing game where you're trying to throw out the bare minimum of attacks because the character doesn't really have pokes. Instead, it's all about very methodical whiff-punishing where you are attack when they think it's safe to go on the offense.

This doesn't sound like it's doing Byleth any favors, but it's sort of the same mindset you had to have when dealing with Bayonetta in Smash 4, only it's against every character in the game. Your goal is not to occupy space, it's to make the opponent think you're trying to overextend when you're really not.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In some cases weight buffs would be extremely nice.
Sure it might not completely sway the opinion of a character, but if characters like and got big enough weight buffs to something along the lines of like 's weight they would love it.

Kirby and Sheik already have gotten enough buffs so far. Sheik might even be viable now. Increase Mewtwo's weight or something. And give Diddy some more love, like Smash 4 grab, Smash 4 F Air, better recovery and a faster dash attack.

 

[BitBitio]

Kirby and Sheik already have gotten enough buffs so far. Sheik might even be viable now. Increase Mewtwo's weight or something. And give Diddy some more love, like Smash 4 grab, Smash 4 F Air, better recovery and a faster dash attack.

Wait wait wait. Diddy could use buffs, but Kirby and some others need them significantly more.

What do you guys think of ? I’ve been watching some sets with him, and I think I at the least have been sleeping on him. Yeah he got gutted twice in a row but his still has great edgeguarding, ladder combos, mobility, and recovery. His neutral is meh and his attacks can be both underwhelming and jank.

Oh, and his fsmash is safe on GnW’s shield.

 

[Thinkaman]

Now speaking of 7.1, I predict that this patch will arrive not too far away now.

Why?

Post-release-window balance patches that came with additional content:

• WiiU 1.0.6 (Mewtwo/Share Mode/Mii Wave 1)
• WiiU 1.0.8 (Lucas/Roy/Ryu/Miiverse/Dream Land 64/Suzaku Castle/Music/Mii Wave 2)
• WiiU 1.1.0 (Peach's Castle/Hyrule Castle/Tourney Mode/YouTube/Mii Wave 3)
• WiiU 1.1.1 (Super Mario Maker/Pirate Ship/Mii Wave 4)
• WiiU 1.1.3 (Cloud/Midgar/Music/Mii Wave 5)
• WiiU 1.1.4 (Bayonetta/Umbra Clock Tower/Music/Mii Wave 6)

• Ultimate 2.0.0 (Piranha Plant/Spirits/Spirit Board Co-op)
• Ultimate 3.0.0 (Joker/Mementos/Music/Spirits/Stage Builder/Video Editor/Content Sharing/Mii Wave 1)
• Ultimate 3.1.0 (Labo VR Mode/Quickplay+Arena Rules Changes)
• Ultimate 4.0.0 (Hero/Yggdrasil's Altar/Music/Spirits/Online Tourney/Mii Wave 2)
• Ultimate 5.0.0 (Banjo & Kazooie/Spiral Mountain/Music/Spirits/Home Run Contest/Mii Wave 3)
• Ultimate 6.0.0 (Terry/KoF Stadium/Music/Spirits/Arena Adjustments/Mii Wave 4)
• Ultimate 7.0.0 (Byleth/Garreg Mach/Music/Spirits/Mii Wave 5)

The following balance patches were released without additional content, which should be obvious because all content had stopped:

• WiiU 1.1.5
• WiiU 1.1.6 (Bayonetta only)

All other patches did not affect gameplay, or addressed a single critical bug.


All balance patches ship with content, and all content ships with balance patches. It's not a hard pattern. The only real variance is the magnitude--the 5.0.0 patch (Banjo) was basically just bugfixes. (But around 20, not just 1.)

There is nothing to suggest that we will get another patch before 8.0.0, much less a meaningful balance patch. 7 out of 7 Ultimate balance patches have been aligned with the content release calendar, and I have no idea why anyone would expect the next one to be otherwise. Those Little Mac buffs are gonna have to wait for Urshifu, Travis, and Lloyd.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I would still say it’s disingenuous to discredit how much all of her moves aside nair have shot her up in viability. Her specials definitely played a large role in it.

Auto reticle and explosive flame being useable gives her a means of preventing people from playing safely as mid range is where you want to be so she can’t nair train you to 50. Smash 4 Palu had a solid gameplan when her opponents weren’t able to just stay at this range but her problem was she had no real way to make opponents stay out of this range. Her new projectile and upgrade auto reticle accomplish this goal for her. You want to hold back and not engage? Her specials will just eat at your shield until it’s low enough for her to come in and threaten shield pokes. In addition explosive flame gives her a kill move from distance that also traps landings when your trying to escape from her massive up air, forces you to do something off stage when it’s thrown out in the path your drifting to and even helps when trying to recover as it can occupy the space at ledge limiting two framing opportunities.

In fact aside her down/Fsmash and sometimes her F/U tilt (which are by no means without use) I would go as far to say the rest of her moves are above average or better at what you would want them to do. Down tilt being slow and lingering turns it from a neutral tool to a ridiculous two frame option that reminds me of Fox’s up tilt two frame from S4 with where it pops opponents. Bait and dash attack give her zone breakers that further compliment her ability to prevent opponents from playing that mid range game that was so effective against her in 4. Up smash hits below the ledge for some reason and reminds me of a discount Power Geyser that just complete denies attempts at using vertical space with a massive front facing hitbox, if a bit slow. Heck she gets a moderately strong back throw for stock caps coupled with a rather generous grab distance for your average character in ultimate for some reason.

If her nair is the engine, the rest of her moves are the wheels, doors, etc, they all have made her as good as she is.

Just look at the Nairo vs. Samsora/Sparg0 sets from Kongo Saga or vs. ESAM at Genesis or Dabuz vs. DW also at Genesis. Peach isn't the fastest character but she has decent mobility to go around moves like auto-reticle and explosive flame. Everytime Nairo has used this he got punished for going for an special and they don't even do much for him if they miss. You may think that Samsora or Sparg0 or whoever he faced have to retreat but they are just contend staying where they are. The space these move cover is very narrow and dependant on where the opponent was when the move is used. Now, maybe Cloud and Peach or Pikachu and Mario aren't the best examples to use here but it is obvious that Nairo and also Dabuz are rather stingy about using these specials. Like, one thing they do is giving Mario time to charge FLUDD for free.
Now, Dabuz caught DW sometimes with an explosive flame in the first match for an edgeguard but then not more in the later games. It is pretty much required to go low against the move and kills if you're half-asleep (it doesn't chase you like Nikita).
You can show me other sets where Nairo or Dabuz or another Palu player could use these specials to their advantage. Simply using a move doesn't always do something, though.
Like, Pika's neutral B forces you to do something about your camping since Pika can also move while the move is active. Palutena is stationary when using either sideB or neutralB. It's not really that good at forcing approaches (well, you get punished more often than not) or give up camping if there is a stock lead for the opponent.

I take the point about her other aerials, though. I've underestimated how good fAir and bAir are for her gameplan and closing out stocks and/or keeping the opponent away. Dash attack is kinda similar but not as much used as bAir, probably because bAir is easier to space.

 

[TennisBall]

Kirby and Sheik already have gotten enough buffs so far. Sheik might even be viable now. Increase Mewtwo's weight or something. And give Diddy some more love, like Smash 4 grab, Smash 4 F Air, better recovery and a faster dash attack.

Kirby is still pretty much low tier. Like Diddy is starting to get results and is considered to be high tier by some people, we gonna buff Diddy but not Kirby? Shiek is probably fine now, but like, Diddy's fine, he doesn't have to be a top tier to be viable, Kirby can barely even approach and we wanna give Diddy a better recovery? Sounds questionable to me.

 

[boysilver400]

Kirby’s results have improved significantly to the point where he’s at least “viable”(depending on what your definition of viable is) even if he’s still low tier. He could still use some minor buffs to help his gameplay. His biggest issue right now imo as that he doesn’t really have any buttons to get out of disadvantage or combos like some characters frame 3 sex kicks or frame 1 nades and his bad airspeed doesn’t help much.

 

[SwagGuy99]

What do you guys think of ? I’ve been watching some sets with him, and I think I at the least have been sleeping on him. Yeah he got gutted twice in a row but his still has great edgeguarding, ladder combos, mobility, and recovery. His neutral is meh and his attacks can be both underwhelming and jank.

Oh, and his fsmash is safe on GnW’s shield.

Yeah, he's not great or anything, but he's just functional enough to be fine IMO.

He has quite a few issues including the fact that several of his hitboxes only last 1 to 2 frames, his range isn't the greatest, he's easy to combo, and he's light which means he dies early.

However, I do think he has some solid things going for him.

• His juggling game against floaty characters is still really good.
• He may not get a kill off of up-air strings into up-b, but he can deal quite a bit of damage off of it.
• He also has decent enough kill options as well, with f-smash, d-smash, and b-air all being solid kill options.
• His combo game is alright, with a lot of his moves being decent for comboing.
• His recovery is still among the best in the game.
• He's still really hard to edgeguard.

IMO, he seems like a mid tier in this game, but I do think he has potential as a counterpick against both and and maybe and as well. He also could benifit if continues to become more popular after her buffs since he does well against her as well.

 

[toonito]

In today's update of OrionStats:

and are tied for #1 this week. IIRC and are the only characters to hit #1 on OrionStats so far.

and are tied for last with 0 points. is tied with at #58.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

 

[The_Bookworm]

In today's update of OrionStats:

and are tied for #1 this week. IIRC and are the only characters to hit #1 on OrionStats so far.

and are tied for last with 0 points. is tied with at #58.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

Other interesting things:
and are tied for 25th.
rose up significantly to 39th.
is already ranked much higher than in season 2, now being 41st, likely due to not being released in the middle of the season.
Terry is ranked much higher than (who sits at a dismal 60th), but much lower than (who is very notably at 19th).
Byleth gained a humongous boost, now being ranked 54th, and only two placements below and two above . This is very good for a character who has been out for only two weeks.
Speaking of DLC characters, without any of the few notable results he had in early season 2, now stands at a poor 68th placement, now being outranked by characters like Mii Gunner, Kirby, and Isabelle. The small glimmer of hope the character had in the early days of season 2, especially after its best player Brood dropped it in favor of Banjo, seems to have faded out rather quickly.
Speaking of , their outing in season 3 so far has been not very good, especially after being in the mid tier of results in season 2. They currently sit at 56th, which is much lower than Duck Hunt's 38th.
This season has so far not been kind to , , and especially , who currently sits at 48th, 52nd, and 50th respectively, notably lower than their final season 2 scores. Falco in particular took a large fall, being above-average in results in season 2 to being below-average.

---------------------------------------------------

In terms of DLC characters, here is the rankings in their position in Orion Stats so far:
(5th) > (41st) > (52nd) > Byleth (54th) > (56th) > (68th)


So yeah, saying that the dev team is making DLC characters with more caution in this game is a bit of an understatement.
But considering the whole circus act we had in the previous game, I really don't blame them.

---------------------------------------------------

On a side note, and I know that I have asked in the past when Orion Stats have been talked about, but I am still confused on where is getting all of her results from. She currently sits at 47th, which is slightly below-average, but considering that I barely know anyone who plays her (let alone do well with her), I am still curious on where she gets her results from.
Similar case with and his 42nd, but it is a bit more understandable.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Similar case with and his 42nd, but it is a bit more understandable.

Remi got 17th at G7, although I'm not sure where his other results are.

Personally I would like to see who the contributors to each character's points. It would obviously show the shares of each contribution, but it would also give us a gauge of the general "borderline" of high-level play.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In today's update of OrionStats:

and are tied for #1 this week. IIRC and are the only characters to hit #1 on OrionStats so far.

and are tied for last with 0 points. is tied with at #58.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

Diddy also does a whole lot better than characters estimated to be better than him. #33 ain't too shabby for one of the most nerfed characters from Smash 4 to now.

 

[KirbySquad101]

So far, the only characters to move up in spots from Season 2 are (+5) and (+11); everyone else has either stayed the same or went down a few spots.

We'll have to see if that changes soon.

 

[Das Koopa]

Remi got 17th at G7, although I'm not sure where his other results are.

Personally I would like to see who the contributors to each character's points. It would obviously show the shares of each contribution, but it would also give us a gauge of the general "borderline" of high-level play.

this is on its way. there's no real way time-wise to do this weekly but i can do it in a giant report

 

[NairWizard]

this is on its way. there's no real way time-wise to do this weekly but i can do it in a giant report

Just want to tell you that you are a legend, no matter how some people feel about OrionStats. You've been a legend since the S4 days.

 

[Megamang]

Agreed. Orionstats gives us a really good, objective measure of how the meta is going, weighted for top level but considering the local experience as well. Any way to take data will inject biases, but you are open with how you do it and it gives us grounding for these discussions on what the meta is like.



It did give me false hope that Snake was falling off, which is not the local experience I had in TN, but hey, thats on me =]

 

[Lacrimosa]

So, Meru's secondary Zelda put Gluto to game 5 at the WANTED today (after his Daisy didn't do that well).
He sadly sd'd the last stock but it shows that Zelda can hold against more common top-tiers, such as Wario, Snake or Olimar and presumably Mario.

Still, a win would've been more impressive but that's sadly not the case :/.
Will re-watch the VODs, couldn't see the whole set sadly.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

So, Meru's secondary Zelda put Gluto to game 5 at the WANTED today (after his Daisy didn't do that well).
He sadly sd'd the last stock but it shows that Zelda can hold against more common top-tiers, such as Wario, Snake or Olimar and presumably Mario.

Still, a win would've been more impressive but that's sadly not the case :/.
Will re-watch the VODs, couldn't see the whole set sadly.

It really came down to luck being on Gluto's side in the end. There were a ton of fair/bair set ups that didn't pan out because of the sweetspot not connecting when it looked like it'd connect. Gluto was literally inches away from being knocked out by that Zelda but got the sour hit almost every time. If Wario was just slightly bigger, he would have lost full stop.

The buff that put in the most work I think was the nair. Meru was pulling off 40% combos because of simple conversions using the nair. Zelda has insane damage out put and kill power now, and her stuff works consistently. There is no universe where she belongs anywhere below mid tier.

 

[Megamang]

While he is amazing at it, Wario has to deal with Zelda's hitboxes. I feel like her biggest problem are characters that don't need to deal with it at all, who can put out safe oppressive hitboxes and ignore her safe and powerful ones. Still, doing well vs Gluto's Wario is no small feat. I still feel she is really exploitable, but the nair actually converting consistently does make it a lot scarier having to space away from her. And the reflector is cake on top of that, she'd be really lost without that + the phantom.


What is her worst MU? Any other top tiers she fares really well against? I would guess ZSS would be miserable, since she can sit in a safe range and still pressure unreactably.

Man, she should really have Peach's dtilt. Although that may be too much, it would round her out and give her confirms into lightning kick.

 

[StoicPhantom]

Do we have a video of this somewhere? Zelda could pull of Nair combos just fine before, so I doubt this is anything new. And the Nair complaints were overblown prepatch anyways. Our top Zelda players were still able to utilize it just fine.

What is her worst MU? Any other top tiers she fares really well against?

IMO, ZSS, Greninja, and possibly in theory, Villager and Isabelle. She doesn't struggle in that many MUs and she does well against top tiers like Snake and prepatch Olimar.

Although that may be too much, it would round her out and give her confirms into lightning kick.

It still confirms into LK around mid percents.

 

[Lacrimosa]

While he is amazing at it, Wario has to deal with Zelda's hitboxes. I feel like her biggest problem are characters that don't need to deal with it at all, who can put out safe oppressive hitboxes and ignore her safe and powerful ones. Still, doing well vs Gluto's Wario is no small feat. I still feel she is really exploitable, but the nair actually converting consistently does make it a lot scarier having to space away from her. And the reflector is cake on top of that, she'd be really lost without that + the phantom.


What is her worst MU? Any other top tiers she fares really well against? I would guess ZSS would be miserable, since she can sit in a safe range and still pressure unreactably.

Small MU-chart against more relevant characters, based off some MU charts I've seen for her and also some of my own opinion:

Wins (+1 or +2):
Even (everything from 45-55 to 55:45):(simply based off ESAM), apparently (I don't buy that)
Loses (-1): (Greninja doesn't seem that bad based off more recent results)
Loses (-2):
Loses (-3):

But I don't know. Don't want to be too controversial but I can see some losing MUs being actually winning ones and Roy, Palu, Shulk and ZSS not being that bad for her. After all, the best Zelda player still hasn't done much post-patch simply because he didn't attend anything outside of locals where FOW is still cleaning the floor with everyone.
Yesterday happened a B-tier event (results are posted in the results topic) in which Marf had to play Exodia and it didn't seem these matches were hopeless for Zelda, so maybe -3 is an overexaggeration.
One big thing was the usage of the Phantom tech where it gets set-up in front of her, however ZSS is just super hard to pin down with her flip-kick and hard to keep out with her zAir, jab, nAir and general speed. No other character has this ability to circumvent the Phantom, although characters like Roy and Shulk are always in her face due to their air and ground speed and/or superior range. You can camp it, and it is strong against but it's not something you want to do all match long

Dunno, looks like a mid-tier chart to me in any case.

 

[SwagGuy99]

What is her worst MU? Any other top tiers she fares really well against? I would guess ZSS would be miserable, since she can sit in a safe range and still pressure unreactably.

I'm guessing wouldn't be great either. She can't camp since he can just run at her with speed art. Multi-hits are unreliable because of shield art. She can't edgeguard him as well as she'd like to because of jump art. His neutral is also pretty good and he just has a lot more range than she does.

is another one I'd say is bad for her. She is really easy for him to juggle and combo and his reflector stops her from being able to use phantom safely from a distance. He also doesn't have trouble landing a hit on her like he does with some other characters because Zelda doesn't have a fast get off me option outside of neutral-b.

Other than and (who I would argue for being her worst MUs but I'm not a Zelda player so I'm probably wrong) I'd say she also doesn't do too great against and .

However, I will say that she does probably win against and who are all meta relevant characters right now, so it certainly could be worse for her. She's nowhere near as bad as she has been in earlier Smash games and all things considered, she's in a pretty good spot in the meta right now.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I can see PT being a -1 against her. True her reflector makes using Ivysaur against her a no-go, it's attacks are slower than her's and her zoning has better range.
However, squirtle runs rings around her and its lack of kill power is a non-issue due to zelda's relatively light weight. Squirtle has absolutely zero issues outmaneuvering or simply avoiding phantom and din's fire and its small frame makes landing certain moves difficult.
Than we get to charizard who has better dash speed on the ground, has stray hits that destroy phantom and who can swat Zelda away if she gets too close. Though it is much easier to hit charizard with a sweet spot fair or bair and Din's fire, no question about that.

 

[Megamang]

Meh, Ivy is probably not that bad. Reflectors aren't so bad when you can bait them out. Its a great tool to have but it doesn't invalidate projectiles. Especially when they are so committal, as long as you adjust your usage accordingly you can either have them not reflecting certain things or bait them into reflecting and getting punished.


though I guess I could see Phantom being the most annoying to Ivy. Not sure. I'd say knowing the Zelda MU truly would mean you can identify which swing will come out based on charge time, but I'd wager almost no one vs Zelda has that knowledge.

 

[ZephyrZ]

From my experience, Razor Leaf is actually a pain for Zelda since it pierces through her phantom and makes it hard for her to get off against Ivy. It's true that she has a reflector but she doesn't get a ton off reflecting leaf, and its a high commitment option that she can't use carelessly. I think having an odd razor leaf bounced back towards you is more then worth it if it means Zelda isn't given the breathing space to set up a phantom.

 

[Lacrimosa]

From my experience, Razor Leaf is actually a pain for Zelda since it pierces through her phantom and makes it hard for her to get off against Ivy. It's true that she has a reflector but she doesn't get a ton off reflecting leaf, and its a high commitment option that she can't use carelessly. I think having an odd razor leaf bounced back towards you is more then worth it if it means Zelda isn't given the breathing space to set up a phantom.

And what happens when Ivy gets one razor leaf reflected? Can he effectively punish the move and not getting hit at the same time? I don't think so because of the nerf this move received. Thank God because otherwise the MU would be bad as hell. It was bad pre-patch because Zelda couldn't do much about Ivysaur. Didn't the sweetspot on the upB also receive a nerf? UpB also was something I saw ven struggling with when fighting a PT at Prime Sage.
Also, Phantom can still be released early, so it's not an easy task for Ivy to just get in and spam the move (again, it was a whole different story pre-patch).
And if nothing helps, the move has more endlag (48frames it seems) than Belmont's sideB which Zelda could already punish with upB. That's a 13 frame reaction window and while I'm not entirely sure, this seems reactable. Spamming Razor Leaf just won't do it. Ivysaur has to get in and you won't bait much with that much endlag.

All in all, I don't think Ivysaur does that well against Zelda anymore but PT still has Zard's strength at high percents and Squirtle's explosiveness.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Last weekend, there were a total of 0 PGR'ed events happening this weekend.
However, when we arrived to this weekend, there are now a total of 7 events.


Sweet Spot 6 (C Tier)
1st: Yez
2nd: Skilly
3rd: Kwaz
4th: ToffeeCG
5th: SKITTLES!!
5th: Welfare Pickles
7th: Fahrenheit
7th: ApolloKage
9th: Comet
9th: TonyZTank
9th: PUHpaya
9th: Wisdom


Ascension 2020: Back to Basics (C Tier)
1st: Silver
2nd: Stroder
3rd: Asotil
4th: Thor
5th: RileyKitty
5th: Tilted
7th: LordSpin
7th: B-Rice


Winter Clash 2020 (C Tier) *Puerto Rican tournament
1st: EKING
2nd: Kata
3rd: Zonkk
4th: Tama
5th: Tuitt
5th: Headshot
7th: PeachIt
7th: Excel_Zero


Guerras Regias! (C Tier) *Mexican tournament
1st: Wonf
2nd: Necro
3rd: Best Taco
4th: Osuka
5th: Pollo
5th: Daige
7th: Vizard
7th: Hope


LAN ETS 2020 (C Tier) *Canadian tournament
1st: Venom
2nd: Jayy
3rd: Blacktwins
4th: FSharp
5th: Jw
5th: Smokk
7th: Justin
7th: Fwed
9th: Maple
9th: SuperGirlKels
9th: Armadillo
9th: Pacha


Salts Flats 2020 (B Tier) *Canadian tournament
1st: Exodia
2nd: Alphicans
3rd: frededish
4th: Marf
5th: Scubbss
5th: Face
7th: Nurse
7th: Chocojo
9th: Pasta B0i
9th: Chaizord
9th: Beezy
9th: Kursed


Relatively minor weekend, especially when we have a S tier next weekend.

There is also event called Chillhouse (C Tier) *Mexican tournament, but there isn't a bracket posted, nor there is any progress.

 

[ZephyrZ]

And what happens when Ivy gets one razor leaf reflected? Can he effectively punish the move and not getting hit at the same time? I don't think so because of the nerf this move received. Thank God because otherwise the MU would be bad as hell. It was bad pre-patch because Zelda couldn't do much about Ivysaur. Didn't the sweetspot on the upB also receive a nerf? UpB also was something I saw ven struggling with when fighting a PT at Prime Sage.
Also, Phantom can still be released early, so it's not an easy task for Ivy to just get in and spam the move (again, it was a whole different story pre-patch).
And if nothing helps, the move has more endlag (48frames it seems) than Belmont's sideB which Zelda could already punish with upB. That's a 13 frame reaction window and while I'm not entirely sure, this seems reactable. Spamming Razor Leaf just won't do it. Ivysaur has to get in and you won't bait much with that much endlag.

All in all, I don't think Ivysaur does that well against Zelda anymore but PT still has Zard's strength at high percents and Squirtle's explosiveness.

You're right that Ivysaur can't just spam Razor Leaf, but I still think its very useful for dissuading and punishing phantoms and back dashing. Releasing phantom early won't help much if Ivy is outside its range, since Razor Leaf still pierces through it and Zelda will get hit. I think Ivy ideally wants to be at midrange here, just outside of the range of a dash attack or uncharged phantom. Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind are good moves but are really high commitment and not things you want to be too dependant on in neutral, and the latter especially is something you only want to use if Ivy lets their guard down.

Aerial Vine Whip did get a knockback nerf, which yeah honestly a big deal in most match ups. Ivy's cheesy d-throw -> up-b kill confirm now only works right on the ledge, so Ivy's crazy early kills are way harder to get now.

I'll admit though I don't have much post patch PT vs Zelda experience, so maybe I should reevaluate the match up. I still think people sometimes tend to overstate how much Razor Leaf got nerfed, but 2 frames is still 2 frames.

 

[Megamang]

I think the arcadian major (2GG All In) Will be an interesting snapshot of what the meta looks like slightly below PGR level. IMO Snake thrives here, but I havent seen too much snake today. That said, its only one major and representation is always skewed in some way at any given event.

Alabama's top ranked player, ChillyChili, showing that other regions are competitive. Though I guess if you don't have a ton of your players because of PGR being gone... well, it shows that the gap isn't *that* big, though obviously skilled regions create better mid level players etc.

 

[DrKatz]

Have some thoughts regarding Byleth’s viability. Feel free to agree/disagree as I posted something similar in the Byleth forums. My hot take puts Byleth at upper-mid/high tier.

Since the character’s release, they’ve won three tournaments (solo main I might add).

MKLeo won MKSunday taking down some of the better Mexican players like Javi.

Pink Fresh won the Grind and took down ZD’s Fox/Wolf in grand finals (also sent ZD to losers so he had a lot of games to adapt to the matchup).

And most recently Zackray won a Japanese tournament taking down the likes of T, Etsuji, and Eim’s Joker in Grand Finals.

You can chalk it up to people being unfamiliar with the matchup, or players like Zackray/MKLeo “carrying the character”. But I don’t think a character lower than mid tier would see such good results less than a month after release. Only recently people have started to optimize Byleth’s Nair drag-down kill confirms/tech chases.

I’m curious to see where this character ends up in terms of viability, but it seems very similar to Smash 4 Corrin and I see Byleth being pretty good in the future.

 

[BitBitio]

Have some thoughts regarding Byleth’s viability. Feel free to agree/disagree as I posted something similar in the Byleth forums. My hot take puts Byleth at upper-mid/high tier.

Since the character’s release, they’ve won three tournaments (solo main I might add).

MKLeo won MKSunday taking down some of the better Mexican players like Javi.

Pink Fresh won the Grind and took down ZD’s Fox/Wolf in grand finals (also sent ZD to losers so he had a lot of games to adapt to the matchup).

And most recently Zackray won a Japanese tournament taking down the likes of T, Etsuji, and Eim’s Joker in Grand Finals.

You can chalk it up to people being unfamiliar with the matchup, or players like Zackray/MKLeo “carrying the character”. But I don’t think a character lower than mid tier would see such good results less than a month after release. Only recently people have started to optimize Byleth’s Nair drag-down kill confirms/tech chases.

I’m curious to see where this character ends up in terms of viability, but it seems very similar to Smash 4 Corrin and I see Byleth being pretty good in the future.

MKLeo could go win a local with any character, any time. He’s #1 for a reason.

Pink Fresh winning a local? Cool. I mean, MU inexperience is definitely a factor here but I think that Byleth just does well against Wolf.

Can you link me to the tournament Zackray won with them?

Byleth is not as good as .

 

[Kokiden]

Not sure Byleth is viable enough long term.

MKLeo winning a local doesn't really mean much because it's such a small pool of people. Lima and C. Zack have been winning their respective locals with Bayonetta, but you're not going to see her winning majors anytime soon.

Best way to tell is how Byleth will do in a major. Frostbite should give us a clear view on Byleth's competitive viability...

 

[Impax]

Last weekend, there were a total of 0 PGR'ed events happening this weekend.
However, when we arrived to this weekend, there are now a total of 7 events.


Sweet Spot 6 (C Tier)
1st: Yez
2nd: Skilly
3rd: Kwaz
4th: ToffeeCG
5th: SKITTLES!!
5th: Welfare Pickles
7th: Fahrenheit
7th: ApolloKage
9th: Comet
9th: TonyZTank
9th: PUHpaya
9th: Wisdom


Ascension 2020: Back to Basics (C Tier)
1st: Silver
2nd: Stroder
3rd: Asotil
4th: Thor
5th: RileyKitty
5th: Tilted
7th: LordSpin
7th: B-Rice


Winter Clash 2020 (C Tier) *Puerto Rican tournament
1st: EKING
2nd: Kata
3rd: Zonkk
4th: Tama
5th: Tuitt
5th: Headshot
7th: PeachIt
7th: Excel_Zero


Guerras Regias! (C Tier) *Mexican tournament
1st: Wonf
2nd: Necro
3rd: Best Taco
4th: Osuka
5th: Pollo
5th: Daige
7th: Vizard
7th: Hope


LAN ETS 2020 (C Tier) *Canadian tournament
1st: Venom
2nd: Jayy
3rd: Blacktwins
4th: FSharp
5th: Jw
5th: Smokk
7th: Justin
7th: Fwed
9th: Maple
9th: SuperGirlKels
9th: Armadillo
9th: Pacha


Salts Flats 2020 (B Tier) *Canadian tournament
1st: Exodia
2nd: Alphicans
3rd: frededish
4th: Marf
5th: Scubbss
5th: Face
7th: Nurse
7th: Chocojo
9th: Pasta B0i
9th: Chaizord
9th: Beezy
9th: Kursed


Relatively minor weekend, especially when we have a S tier next weekend.

There is also event called Chillhouse (C Tier) *Mexican tournament, but there isn't a bracket posted, nor there is any progress.

There was a partially completed bracket but it got deleted for some reason.