Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Emblem Lord]

All I want this patch is for parry to get buffed.

If that happens...

We in there like swimwear.

 

[Roguewolf]

And with that analogy of swimwear we start a new page

I honestly would love party's to become more prevelant in ultimate because it feels like with a little tweaking it could be a really sick part of ultimate

 

[Arthur97]

You are getting very defensive over a blue haired 3D model.

Chill out lol no one here hates Lucina

It's a competitive thread. Making shots at the characters themselves does not contribute anything. I'll take shots at characters all day, but this isn't the place for it, and I called someone out for it.

I said my piece, tbh. I'm not going to argue about it since you haven't really made a point against it. Happy to discuss, tho.

EDIT: Are we still talking about how Chrom gets easily edgeguarded despite the fact that he kinda doesn't at top level?

You read linearity into a statement where it did not exist which comes across as trying to make the statement fit another meaning than it was intended. The tweet said nothing about linearity, but then you come up and say, hey, maybe it really does.

 

[Kiligar]

Space 23 has just dropped the highest quality video Pit guide I have ever seen. Great to give people a better understanding of an underrated character.

 

[Rizen]

I don't think Joker needs any nerfs but seeing the timing of the patch one wouldn't surprise me.

...

How good would you say Kirby is after his buffs?

 

[Sean²]

As for the Joker and Arsene discussion, I've noticed overall that the Smash fanbase doesn't tend to like comeback mechanics and that could very well be true for other FGCs too. Most players and spectators seem to have never really liked Lucario, claiming that he encourages poor play and such and Smash 4 Cloud was already a decent character without Limit and then became a speed demon sword wielder without his biggest weakness once he did have Limit. Mac's KO Punch probably isn't disliked as much simply because it's on Mac. The character is flawed enough that having a comeback mechanic hardly matters (plus it's the easiest one to remove and honestly the least impactful too). Ultimate Cloud doesn't get much flack but then I don't even know if there's any noteworthy players who use him. Limit having a timer can also kinda make it a bit of a liability too. As Cloud, you'd always want to have Limit but most specifically when you're trying to recover but since you gain it from dealing and taking damage and charging whenever you choose to, you're never really in control of when you have it. You just get it from playing the game whether you're winning or losing neutral and it probably means more to Cloud than Arsene does to Joker. Vanilla Joker still has a decent recovery while Vanilla Cloud has one of the worst in the game and yet Joker gets to keep his for longer. I'm no expert on either character though so if I'm spewing crap, then please do correct me.

This is about correct. Very many dislike comeback mechanics (unless you play the character with the comeback mechanic). Myself included.

Comeback mechanics you have to aim to score the hit for the comeback to work (like Mac , even Cloud to an extent now) aren't so bad. Buffing your entire kit for free...or for getting bodied...is, frankly, dumb. It's like fighting Ganondorf except you don't have to make a huge mistake to eat 80 damage from 3 hits. Oh well, they're here to stay I guess though.

 

[|RK|]

I don't think Joker needs any nerfs but seeing the timing of the patch one wouldn't surprise me.

How good would you say Kirby is after his buffs?

Idk, I don't know how good the rest of the cast is, honestly.

I can tell you some of the chars I think he's better than. But I'd really end up giving a spotty list.

This is about correct. Very many dislike comeback mechanics (unless you play the character with the comeback mechanic). Myself included.

Comeback mechanics you have to aim to score the hit for the comeback to work (like Mac , even Cloud to an extent now) aren't so bad. Buffing your entire kit for free...or for getting bodied...is, frankly, dumb. It's like fighting Ganondorf except you don't have to make a huge mistake to eat 80 damage from 3 hits. Oh well, they're here to stay I guess though.

Eh, depends. They're usually done way better in not-Smash, from my experience.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

One thing I think that is going to be a big part of Jokers meta in the future is platforms. Because Joker can really utilize them to great advantage and get milage of proper positioning. Joker does not really use them to get crazy ladder combos like Mario or Smash 4 ZSS, but the properties of his falling up-air leads to some really nasty combos and setups off platforms.
At Momocon MKleo's joker managed to get 40+ damage off a fairly simple 3-hit up throw combo with Arsene, and Joker can even pull some fox-like kill-confirms with d-air into falling up-air so they land on the platfrom and then Up-smash below the platfrom .

Heck with Arsene he just has a straight kill confirm from first hit of falling fair into up-smash no platform needed. Ok I have been saying a lot of what Arsene Joker seems like, but I think what he closely resembles is fighting Fox only with swordie-legth reach and hitboxes. I mean the mobility, the powerful air-game, a reflector, a B neutral rapidire gun projectile, and kill-confirms into an absurdly powerful up-smash. Yeah Arsene Joker is nearly Fox with a sword.

 

[Rizen]

Idk, I don't know how good the rest of the cast is, honestly.

I can tell you some of the chars I think he's better than. But I'd really end up giving a spotty list.

.

You might as well. IDK anything about Kirby's viability. Do you still think he's a low tier?

 

[Game7a1]

Hitboxes on Smash Ultimate can be coded to have additional hitstun frames thanks to AttackModule__set_add_reaction_frame function, it wasn't noticed until now due to 3.0.0 nro changes (thanks to @Meshima_)
It's mostly used on (rapid) jabs but these moves also have it pic.twitter.com/yGNREv6P00

— Ruben (@Ruben_dal) May 5, 2019

Talking about balance changes and patches, there should be something else to consider when looking at and discussing (potential) character changes: hitstun modifier. And with a patch on the way, it would not be surprising if some moves have additional (or less) hitstun than before while retaining the same damage and startup and ending frame data.

 

[DelugeFGC]

So I've been using G&W some lately.

I feel the only thing holding this character back from greener pastures is his FAir. It's not even that the move is bad, it just doesn't feel like it works properly sometimes and it has really crap priority so it's not hard to deal with. It also changed up G&W's neutral quite a lot and you're now littering the stage with explosions in a lot of MU's which gets really chaotic.. but they do confirm into aerials and such which is nice.

My problem is that the move is way too much of a pain in the ass to land properly. The old box flip FAir he had was so much nicer, as not only did the move work properly it was an immediate forward option in neutral. Now you just have NAir and BAir as consistent options there, which aren't always what you want in every situation. The turtle is great, but I miss that box so much. The bomb just kind of makes me sad.

I love his UAir now, DAir is still great, his recovery is amazing, the frame data on his Smash Attacks is all very good, his jab is a good panic button, Up-B out of shield is still a thing if someone hits your shield.. like G&W has a lot going for him. That bomb toss move is the one thing holding him down, but right now when I bust up G&W nobody even seems to know how to respond, the meta for this character in terms of competitive MU's is definitely not as well explored as others.

Also what is UTilt even supposed to be for? That move is truly tragic, his old UTilt was better and that's real sad to say. If UTilt and FAir worked properly, I feel G&W could be a low high-tier character if properly developed.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Isn't his upTile the move where he is this little kid waving the flag around? Can't even describe it properly.
But again, I think you're right and to me it looks like people (like, Youtube, Twitch is really nasty there) can't really comprehend what the fAir is like. Besides the fact that it sometimes doesn't work properly, it seems most aerials and therefore characters are valued by how much you can spam their aerials. Zelda is another one of those characters but that's about G&W.
Maister uses this aerial more like a poking tool that also puts your shield under very high pressure if you aren't careful. But he doesn't really use it to rush the opponent down. You can use Lucina for this or any other sword character. No hate, but those are typical rushdown moves.
And then we reach something that isn't well understood: If an aerial can't be used for rush down then it's bad but that's clearly not the case. Yes, the bomb can be hit and loses it attack power but you have to deal with it and you have to respect that. G&W could easily punish you for getting rid of the bomb (he can slide back when using this move) when you're in endlag of the move you used. It may not hit you but you definitely have to respect it.
I think his fAir is actually pretty good when used correctly and Maister does a great work pushing his meta forward. Definitely looking forward to what he can do at SnS where he's seeded as 18th.

 

[DelugeFGC]

The move doesn't connect properly quite often, the hitbox on it is the furthest thing from consistent and there's many points when using G&W where I physically see the particle effects of the explosion touching the opponent's character but no hit registers. That can't be intentional, it makes the move look like it has a bigger hitbox than it does in reality, and that 'true' hitbox is actually pretty damned small. Losing the box flip FAir also takes away an immediate aerial response option (one that hit decently hard, too) for something that takes several frames to produce a hitbox, I don't view that as a positive.

Also yes, UTilt is the move with the '1-2' flag pulls, the old UTilt was more of a vertical flag wave and it was way more consistent to land, getting both hits of UTilt to connect as G&W seems to be influenced purely by black hitbox magic.

 

[Game7a1]

Also what is UTilt even supposed to be for?

Based on what it can do, it can serve as an anti-air and a combo starter (or continue one). But, as you pointed out, Up-Tilt has barely any vertical reach (but it does have intangibility on his hands, giving it some sense of disjointed), so it can't serve as an anti-air very well. Old Up-Tilt also could be used to cover ledge get-up and ledge jump, but new Up-Tilt wouldn't do well at the latter. That said, maybe it could be used to cover [ledge] get-up and roll options? Just something to experiment with.

As a combo tool, it does decently. However, the reason why the old Up-Tilt was good as a combo tool was because D-Throw could lead into Up-Tilt on every character. With D-Throw's increased knockback and Up-Tilt's shorter range, that is no longer possible, so the only way to involve Up-Tilt in a combo is through FF Nair, D-Smash bury, and (with good timing and spacing) F-air bomb. While that may seem like more options, they're all harder to achieve than a simple grab to throw.

But aside from the worse hitbox and D-Throw's changes, both new and old Up-Tilts are pretty niche moves as they only worked under certain conditions. You can't throw them out as-is and get very effective results (old Up-Tilt lacked horizontal reach; new one lacks vertical reach). Plus, the combos you can do with them are pretty similar. They get the done job, and that's about it. They are worth using to try to build up damage even more and not stale out a throw, Fire, or Jab.

 

[KakuCP9]

Late to linearity jibber jabber, but I think a better example of a linear character is Pichu. I have been saying for awhile that her neutral game is lacking due to her bad airspeed, slow fastball speed and lack of reliable zoning/zone breaking tools causing Pichu to be stonewalled by characters with decent anti-airs/OOS options (i.e Marthcina, Chroy) unless she takes significant risks, something top players are starting to figure out. It's why Void is considering running Sheik along side Pichu and why Captain L is moving from Pichu to Pika.
Granted I don't think she's going disappear from the metagame since her explosive potential is great, though like Lucina and Wolf, Pichu probably being shelved in favor of the newer toys atm.

 

[|RK|]

Late to linearity jibber jabber, but I think a better example of a linear character is Pichu. I have been saying for awhile that her neutral game is lacking due to her bad airspeed, slow fastball speed and lack of reliable zoning/zone breaking tools causing Pichu to be stonewalled by characters with decent anti-airs/OOS options (i.e Marthcina, Chroy) unless she takes significant risks, something top players are starting to figure out. It's why Void is considering running Sheik along side Pichu and why Captain L is moving from Pichu to Pika.
Granted I don't think she's going disappear from the metagame since her explosive potential is great, though like Lucina and Wolf, Pichu probably being shelved in favor of the newer toys atm.

Pichu's neutral is definitely linear, I'll give you that.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't like G&W's fair, not necessarily because it's a bad move, but I'd rather have the old one. I don't use him that much, but sometimes when I do, I still reflexively go for it like it was the old only to just drop a bomb. I also liked not having to be facing away from my opponent to have something that could hit them somewhat consistently. So, yeah, maybe the fair is really good in the right capacity, but it's not really a capacity I want to use a fair in.

 

[Click5]

If GW’s fair bomb had hp, like 6-8%, it would be a damn fine move. It’s problem is that any other hotbox will neutralize it. A savvy opponent will just jab it away.

Maister has even said in public that he will start off with his short hop, double jump, double bomb set ups just to test and see if his opponent knows anything about Game & Watch lol

 

[Arthur97]

If GW’s fair bomb had hp, like 6-8%, it would be a damn fine move. It’s problem is that any other hotbox will neutralize it. A savvy opponent will just jab it away.

Maister has even said in public that he will start off with his short hop, double jump, double bomb set ups just to test and see if his opponent knows anything about Game & Watch lol

I actually really like that tactic. A quick way to test your opponents' knowledge. Though, if they know he does that, they could just fake it and maybe score an easy hit later.

 

[KirbySquad101]

On the subject of and his FAir, the move has its faults, but looking at Smash 4 videos and sets involving Maister and Dingus Joe is really starting to make me realize just how lackluster his previous forward, given how infrequently the move was used in competitive Smash 4. The move looked fine at first, having a decent disjoint, and dealing about 11% damage on hit, but in terms of what it did, the move was just hopelessly outclassed by his back aerial. Its disjoint, while good, couldn’t compare to his old back aerial, which meant spacing with the move was more of a struggle. The move also wasn’t faster at all either, coming out on frame 10, but more importantly, its clean hit was only one frame long; compared to back aerial’s effective multi-hit duration and its unique landing hitbox, trying to fall with it the same way you would with back aerial would often result in you eating a grab for your troubles in comparison. The move also had its power gutted from SSBB, so it wasn’t even that effective at KOing characters. The move did have a niche over his back aerial in that it was a forward response to the opponent, but even then, the move was frame 10, so the move wasn’t instantaneous in that regard. Aside from that, his previous forward aerial didn’t cover any situation that his back aerial couldn't. Even now, Fire works better as an immediate response thanks to the fact that it’s frame 3 and has a front and back generous hitbox.

His new forward aerial, while faulty, at least serves a different purpose from his back aerial. Namely its usage involves utilizing it as a poking tool in neutral that you want to use when mixing up your options between Chef, back aerial, neutral aerial, and grab. Thanks to Game and Watch’s strong air mobility, the move allows him to retreat back while still controlling s bit of space on the battlefield. The biggest problem with the move, as DelugeTN, said, it can be unreliable at times; the explosion doesn’t quite match the hitbox of the move (though it did improve in 2.0.0), which is part of what leaves players frustrated with the move. If you’re also using the move too often, then there is a big chance the opponent will just start throwing out noncommittal options that get rid of the bomb while also making sure you’re not getting any advantage off of it.

While I don’t think the move is the first that should be buffed, if I had to buff it, I think giving the move a bit of durability would go a long way in forcing more commitments out from the opponent. I say “I think” when I mention this, because I feel like his forward aerial is kind of hard to adjust without making it bonkers, since the durability of the move is kind of the “make it or break it” deal with the attack. I have seen suggestions like just making the bomb explode on contact, and please, no one should ever suggest this.

Overall, even if his forward aerial isn’t good, I can’t see the change as anything less than a buff when it feels like it serves more of a purpose than his old forward aerial. Also, this post isn’t really directed at anyone, but it’s more or less all of my thoughts on G&W’s forward aerial.

 

[Arthur97]

I don't know, I kind of like my forward aerials to go forward instead of mostly down. It just feels off to use for me.

 

[Rizen]

Here are some thoughts on characters I play:

is a solid high tier but too undertuned to be top tier. A lot of his bad MUs go something like "YL would win or be even with this character except they kill him 50% earlier than he kills them". He has one of the best projectile zoning games and a great combo game making him one of the best characters for building damage. YL gets the best of both TL and Link's worlds with Link's amazing landing game and TL's zoning game. YL has 3 aerials with only 6f landing lag. His arrows are by far the best of the 3 Links and very spammable. Nair is f4 and one of the best moves in the game; it outbuttons most of the cast in the air. Dsmash hits almost entirely horizontally and is amazing vs bad recovery characters. I say "best" a lot but darnit YL has some amazing tools.

To balance all this great stuff his sword CQC game is on the slower side of sword character frame data with things like a f6 jab, f8-10 tilts and a f12 tether grab so they're not awful but lose to characters like Chroy. YL's sword isn't as long as primarily sword characters', he's light at 88 units and has poor kill power outside of Fsmash, which is slow.

YL's basically SSB4 Peach: a highly technical character who's good but there's no reason to pick him up over top tiers who have an easier time winning. Expect to see him pop up in some top 8s but never dominate the meta.

is a weird hybrid of a slow heavyweight who trades weight for zoning tools. His reach is on par with Ike's and he compliments sword zoning with 3 projectiles. Boomerangs are one of the best moves in the game, better than Wolf's blaster because they combo into Fair up close and have a returning hit which controls space for a long time. Link would be much worse without it. While Link lacks YL's combo abilities he has a much easier time killing. Remote bombs are amazing offstage.

His downsides are poor frame data even for a sword character, poor mobility and blindspots. Fair for example cuts along the Z axis and only has hitbubbles directly in front of Link as opposed to Lucina's which has a wide arc.

Link's probably lower high tier. Similar to YL, he'll show up in some top 8s but not often.

Everyone knows about Lucina. She's basic but has amazing coverage with quick disjointed moves. In 6-8 frames she can hit anywhere in a wide circle all around her. UpB has f1 invulnerability and she has a shield breaker for big punishes. Lucina's not falling out of top tier short of being nerfed. She'll always pop up as a pocket character when players like Leo need her.

has been placed as the best super heavyweight by some players but I disagree. He has the heavy character polarization where on good days he looks high tier but on bad days, low tier. Even moreso than other heavies because he can kill you at 60-80%+ with huge smash attacks but gets gimped at the same %s with his bottom tier recovery. He has good reach with his sword and long legs but poor frame data. Ganon's scary when he gets going but can also be shut down hard. He's one of those characters who isn't in control 90% of a match but kills you in 3 hits.

As such, Ganon's a solid mid tier. He's basic like Lucina but won't see her levels of success.

also has the heavy character polarization. He has major issues with the biggest hurtbox in the game and a ton of endlag. He also has some great tools like getting 20% off every grab and belly armor on attacks which gives him a strong mixup up game. Off grab, Uthrow deals 19.2% so no matter how hard you mash you're eatting a big chunk of damage. At later %s Dthrow buries and combos into his f5 Utilt. Around 100% he can play a guessing game off Dthrow where his f6 Usmash will kill you if you pop out early but another smash will kill you if you don't mash. Then around 140% he can Dthrow>Ftilt kill which will probably beat any mashing.
Like DDD he's a zoner/bait and punish, tanky super heavyweight. Cannonballs and crownerang give him projectiles to work with, crown having KB based armor powers through other projectiles and he has a reflect/counter. Cannon balls can be good up close if you transfer into suction.
K.Rool has a few other tricks like Dsmash has belly armor so Dsmash on a platform beats platform poke attempts which aren't disjointed. Dair is great at 2 framing recoveries and in general K.Rool has huge hitboxes offstage including armored Dair and Nair for gimping.
His recovery's long and he lives forever but lacks the raw power of Ganon or Incineroar.

He has some good tools but all the super heavy problems and limited hitboxes. K.Rool's attacks are fast to start, often with a lot of endlag, and don't have great coverage. Utilt for example doesn't cover entirely above or behind him at all. It's not that his hitboxes are bad but on such a huge hurtbox he ends up with blind spots, which sucks considering how hard he gets juggled. Still a f7 belly armored Nair and counter with f4-15 invincibility is better than what a lot of heavies have.

I think K.Rool's better than low tiers and the 300+ tournament he won is better than any low tier's results. Part of his success comes from being so darn tanky. Like Ganon he gets destroyed in disadvantage but he can take a lot. He's not as good as I thought but not a terrible character either. K.Rool takes a different mindset to play than other heavyweights. It's all about zoning and frame trapping with belly armor or grab mixups.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Based on what it can do, it can serve as an anti-air and a combo starter (or continue one). But, as you pointed out, Up-Tilt has barely any vertical reach (but it does have intangibility on his hands, giving it some sense of disjointed), so it can't serve as an anti-air very well. Old Up-Tilt also could be used to cover ledge get-up and ledge jump, but new Up-Tilt wouldn't do well at the latter. That said, maybe it could be used to cover [ledge] get-up and roll options? Just something to experiment with.

As a combo tool, it does decently. However, the reason why the old Up-Tilt was good as a combo tool was because D-Throw could lead into Up-Tilt on every character. With D-Throw's increased knockback and Up-Tilt's shorter range, that is no longer possible, so the only way to involve Up-Tilt in a combo is through FF Nair, D-Smash bury, and (with good timing and spacing) F-air bomb. While that may seem like more options, they're all harder to achieve than a simple grab to throw.

But aside from the worse hitbox and D-Throw's changes, both new and old Up-Tilts are pretty niche moves as they only worked under certain conditions. You can't throw them out as-is and get very effective results (old Up-Tilt lacked horizontal reach; new one lacks vertical reach). Plus, the combos you can do with them are pretty similar. They get the done job, and that's about it. They are worth using to try to build up damage even more and not stale out a throw, Fire, or Jab.

Any time I can catch a ledge roll with UTilt, I'd rather go for something like DSmash > FSmash (this can cover neutral get up, some get up attacks AND ledge roll if you space right for the MU) or one of his better options. I also dislike how the only thing I'm left to properly catch jumps with is NAir now, UTilt does not work as a good AA move as that was the first way I tried to make use of it.. I didn't see too much success there. The only place I use it now is when I'm going for desperate build-a-bear style combos and I think "nothing else is gonna hit, let's pull some flags" or something.

I rarely find use for the move, as while it isn't literally useless, it's not something I've found desirable when compared to the other options he has. I think the old UTilt was just straight up better, you can argue for his new FAir due to the confirms and neutral shield pressure it gives, but new UTilt is a straight up downgrade imo.

 

[NotLiquid]

Patch notes from 3.1.0
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45405

Some big takeaways from patch notes:

got slammed with nerfs, his smashes now have more endlag - most notably, he got a hurtbox increase(?!)
got almost nerfed across the board as well; all his self-damaging attacks now inflict more damage on himself, and FTilt and FSmash got nerfed
most notable nerf is probably FAir having less knockback
got her FSmash and FAir knockback nerfed
his down Smash range got nerfed - again - and his blaster now has more endlag
is basically untouched, aside from a small buff to Eigaon
got a lot of nice QoL buffs; up smash works now and he has better UAir
also seems to have quite a bit of nice upgrades, FAir and BAir are stronger now
untouched - outside of a buffed rapid jab
untouched
got some buffs but, they don't seem too significant honestly
all got a laundry list of buffs, buffs and more buffs - mains better check these out cause I'm no expert on these

There's a lot more here to digest.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Look how they massacred my boy, Pichu.

 

[PK Gaming]

Olimar nerfs are the single most consequential changes in the game, imo

It's a significant net buff for pretty much the entire cast

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Patch notes from 3.1.0
https://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/45405

Some big takeaways from patch notes:

got slammed with nerfs, his smashes now have more endlag - most notably, he got a hurtbox increase(?!)
got almost nerfed across the board as well; all his self-damaging attacks now inflict more damage on himself
most notable nerf is probably FAir having less knockback
his down Smash range got nerfed - again - and his blaster now has more endlag
is basically untouched, aside from a small buff to Eigaon
got a lot of nice QoL buffs; up smash works now and he has better UAir
also seems to have quite a bit of nice upgrades, FAir and BAir are stronger now
untouched - outside of a buffed rapid jab
untouched
got some buffs but, they don't seem too significant honestly
all got a laundry list of buffs, buffs and more buffs - mains better check these out cause I'm no expert on these

There's a lot more here to digest.

was also completely unchanged, as in she was literally not in the notes at all. We are still going to be seeing a lot of the goddesith how relatively easy and effective she can be....that came out kinda wrong.

 

[NotLiquid]

Also are were unchanged, as in they literally are not in the notes at all. We are still going to be seeing a lot of these ladies with how relatively easy and effective they are.....that came out kinda wrong.

Lucina did get changed, two of her best KO moves (FAir and FSmash) got their knockback nerfed. Oddly, Marth didn't share said nerf. Palutena is untouched though.

 

[Aaron1997]

I told you. Just as I predicted. Either they are going to change the whole game or its going to be like 2 changes

 

[JustCallMeJon]

With the huge list of buffs/nerfs in Ultimate patch, I am suprised that there is not a single Mega Man nerf

 

[DelugeFGC]

I wouldn't say Olimar was 'slammed'. The increased endlag isn't a super big deal from what I've tested so far, but if it means less hate and booing for me at locals I'm happy with it. I'm more concerned with the hurtbox increase all said.

USmash still combos into itself, FSmash is still useful.. it's not just hella spammable anymore. All said I'm content with these nerfs.

USmash > USmash > UAir still works, FSmash > Grab > DThrow > FAir still works.. like all of Olimar's burst damage is still there, it's just not as safe to go for it. All said like.. I'm glad this happened. It doesn't change my character in terms of how they play, Olimar is still very good, but maybe he's not quite so 'overtuned' now? I don't know. This hurtbox thing is what I'm most curious of.

 

[Wunderwaft]

At least Mega Man didn't get nerfed this time.

 

[Idon]

Lucina did get changed, two of her best KO moves (FAir and FSmash) got their knockback nerfed. Oddly, Marth didn't share said nerf. Palutena is untouched though.

Well I'd argue that fair was more good for edgeguarding and pressure than it was for killing.

Now, Bair was really more of the problem move, especially with how ridiculously fast it came out and how early it killed.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Palutena did not get changed at all..ohh boy let the salt and hate for the goddess of light commence. I mean she was not considered a big a problem as other top tiers, but with Wolf and Lucina getting nerfs. She kinda stands out

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What I would take from all of this, is that once a character starts becoming a clear runaway option for the upper half of top tier, they most likely will get nerfed 2-3 months later.

I'm guessing Snake and Palutena will get their nerfs next go around, as they didn't shoot up to the top of top quite as fast as some of the others.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Olimar's smash attacks are all still as good as they were before, really, his combo / burst damage potential is all still there and nothing in his overall gameplan really changed. The sourspot increase / sweetspot decrease on FSmash actually makes it easier to combo into grabs at higher %'s, so that COULD be seen as a potential buff.

What it does seem like, is he is now easier to punish. If Olimar whiffs a read or overextends, he's more likely to pay for it now.. and the hurtbox increase compounds that. This is fair, I cannot complain over these nerfs.

Pichu looks like he's worthless now though.


PRAISE THE LORD, THE CAPTAIN IS BACK THO

 

[Arthur97]

Lucina's aerials are already lower knockback and she's been losing players, but sure, nerf her best killing options when killing is already an issue. Also, Marth not getting these really bugs me. They make sure Daisy keeps the same veggie physics, but this is fine.

That combined with buffing Joker just...why?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What I would take from all of this, is that once a character starts becoming a clear runaway option for the upper half of top tier, they most likely will get nerfed 2-3 months later.

I'm guessing Snake and Palutena will get their nerfs next go around, as they didn't shoot up to the top of top quite as fast as some of the others.

I expect Snake and Palutena to shoot up more until they possibly get nerfed. Fox as well since he was also untoched and be beats them both

 

[PK Gaming]

Lucina's aerials are already lower knockback and she's been losing players, but sure, nerf her best killing options when killing is already an issue. Also, Marth not getting these really bugs me. They make sure Daisy keeps the same veggie physics, but this is fine.

That combined with buffing Joker just...why?

Joker literally just came out vs characters who have been around for several months

 

[ON-2]

At least Mega Man didn't get nerfed this time.

Best thing about the patch imo. Patch is a good one for him if anything. Would like a down smash that has less startup or endlag, but I'm biased in that regard.