Thoughts post-Thunder Smash:
are establishing themselves as top anti-meta threats because they have access to options that not only act as strong, low risk, versatile "panic buttons", (on characters that are seemingly balanced around slower-than-average movesets) but absolutely destroy rushdown tactics (mainly telegraphed aerial landings on shield, meaning they also reap great rewards from parries) which are very popular methods of play. They're able to play evasive/walling games and wear down opponents, and then blow up 1 bad approach with fast, forward facing KO options with reach. They're not characters you can fight by forcing your own gameplan onto them, you have to respect their unique attributes and learn the matchup proper and I think that's why they're particularly frustrating for a lot of people. These are the moves I'm talking about:
: F11 F-smash: Great kill power, range and hitboxes, lingers and stuffs approaches, difficult to react to and punish. High max damage threshold. Ditto F12 U-smash which can be done OoS, and combos into/out of things, typically you see top Olimars net over 50% off of a single U-smash. F2 combo breaker in Down-B which tends to throw off impatient players that want to continue a juggle. Olimar can use this, Up-B, his aerials and Pikmin Throw to play head games with his opponent and lessen his disadvantage state. His grabs are slow relative to the cast but make up for it with the range they cover, especially pivot grab (and blue upthrows kill early). F9 Pikmin Throw is low commitment high reward DoT, and latched Pikmin force attacks out of opponents and eat hitboxes/increase hitlag, allowing Olimar to punish accordingly. Olimar easily forces mixups with the threat of Purple's active hitbox/power and Blue's kill throws.
: F1 Grenade breaks combos anywhere, punishes landing on shield, and tells the opponent where they can and cannot go. F5 Dash attack is very difficult to react to and punish, and launches opponents at perfect angles for Snake's gameplan to continue. F6 U-tilt is maybe the best punish in the game. All amazing OoS/parry options.
Take notice of how many parries the top mains of these characters get per game. Higher than average.
To a lesser extent
has panic buttons in U-tilt and Dash attack, by way of kill power and speed.
I think proper counterplay to these characters is going to evolve into more empty hop usage to bait their powerful OoS punishes, approaching with run-up shield/parry (more viable thanks to 3.0.0 changes), and maybe even the return of walking in conjunction with shield, to bypass the inability to pull up shield in dash animations. Players will have to learn to be more patient (not
passive, because you don't want to give these characters that much space).
With Olimar specifically, we still see players ignore Pikmin lineups in the heat of the moment and run into Purple Side-B, that'll change sooner or later...
Prodigy used
's airspeed to great effect against Myran, weaving in and out of his bubble and making unpredictable landings. Bair can be thrown out with ease to kill thrown and latched Pikmin and Cape is a non-trivial threat to 90% of Oli's moveset.
If I could tone down
without changing their gameplans much:
's Pikmin are easy to apply to opponents, and easy to pluck, so they don't need the damage output that they have. It would be interesting to see Pikmin Pluck having more lag between pulls; Pikmin would become more of a Luma in their presence and encourage opponents to keep pressuring Olimar. Right now you aren't really rewarded for killing Pikmin due to its speed. I would slightly increase F-smash and U-smash startup and end lag (see
's smash frame data for something more reasonable that would fit this type of character), and reel in their KO power slightly. He doesn't need a rework, opponents just need more leniency and a couple more "exchanges" with him before they're in trouble.
Perhaps to encourage smart Pikmin lineups, the "non-killing" Pikmin should have their overall damage output/kill power reduced. Also, I don't have Olimar's hitbox visuals but I get the feeling some overall tightening of them would be healthy.
probably just needs more startup on Dash attack, his main panic button, as it compounds his already unmatched stage control abilities, and either more startup (easier to avoid) or less kill power (more exchanges required) on U-tilt. Shrinking its horizontal hitbox (it's generous), so it serves as more of an anti-air could be a healthy change as well. I actually expect Dash attack to get toned down based on how good it is online.
simply needs kill power reductions on U-tilt and Dash attack, his fallback burst KO options.
Can
crawl under any Pikmin moves? I'm very impressed with this character in 3.0.0. and I have full confidence VoiD is going to put her back on the map (he doesn't think she needs any more changes to be viable for what it's worth). It's not her damage output you have to look out for, it's her unmatched ability to control the stage (with her amazing frame data, positionally advantageous combos, Needles, and her movement specs) and set up for edgeguards/ledge traps. Her kill power is genuinely decent too for the kind of frame data she possesses. I can see her doing well against
, easy to combo but also easy for her to weave out of his reactive options (Grenade, U-tilt) and then continue a punish.
Someone in this thread said movement was typically underrated by smashers and I think
is a great example of that. Movement in general in this game can be very threatening and it's underdeveloped at the moment.
