Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Impax

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What would you guys say WFT's weaknesses are? A lot of people say the neutral isn't very good, but I'd argue that the two projectiles+nair being The God makes her neutral at least serviceable?
Jusy my take,
I think her main issue is her reach can be a little lacking and she can have a hard time hitting smaller opponents. Her wonky hitboxes are good for covering options but when you can get outranged easily, it can be hard to contest neutral. Though that definitely gets mitigated with deep breathing active. A handful of hits gets her opponent to 60-70% easy.

Her recovery, while decent, can be gimped. Dont get me wrong, shes fantastic off stage but a smart opponent with the right tools can put her in a bad position at times.

Edit: on the tournament, why is TKBreezys results bad? Everyone that placed is an excellent player and I dont recall seeing TKBreezy really ever place high at tournaments.
 
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Sean²

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For kill moves, Plant has F-Smash, U-Smash, Bair, Neutral B, Down B, and even a decent kill throw in U-throw. His killpower is fine, even if a couple moves are kind of situational.

If he has any issue with killing its getting in to get the kill in the first place.
Slow, Situational, Somewhat decent I guess, Situational, Slow and easily avoided, Puny grab range and survivable in ranges after Ness's bthrow would kill.

So yeah, his killpower is existent, it's just having anything work other than a platform/landing read with usmash or an edgeguard with the spike ball is going to give this character a rough time.

What would you guys say WFT's weaknesses are? A lot of people say the neutral isn't very good, but I'd argue that the two projectiles+nair being The God makes her neutral at least serviceable?
IMO not the best in disadvantage until they touch the ledge, then the word "disadvantage" doesn't exist to them any longer. Recovery isn't super amazing.
 
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Jusy my take,
I think her main issue is her reach can be a little lacking and she can have a hard time hitting smaller opponents. Her wonky hitboxes are good for covering options but when you can get outranged easily, it can be hard to contest neutral. Though that definitely gets mitigated with deep breathing active. A handful of hits gets her opponent to 60-70% easy.

Her recovery, while decent, can be gimped. Dont get me wrong, shes fantastic off stage but a smart opponent with the right tools can put her in a bad position at times.

Edit: on the tournament, why is TKBreezys results bad? Everyone that placed is an excellent player and I dont recall seeing TKBreezy really ever place high at tournaments.
The tournament was a 69 man, semi(?) invitational, not to take anything away from anyone who attended but the organization who ran the event essentially just flew out a handful of top talent and the rest of the players were mostly non players/new comers to smash with a lot of DQs all around the pools. I'm pretty sure the people who created the event weren't smash players and more so "big esports" and at the last minute got smash players on board to help run the event. A quick look through the pools will show you that https://smash.gg/tournament/thunder...rackets?filter={"phaseId":568183,"perPage":4}

Again not to take anything away from anyone it just doesn't appear that any competition actually started until pools was over.
 

DunnoBro

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This is what I was talking about with character diversity, or lack of. Get used to seeing :ultwolf::ultsnake::ultpeach::ultolimar: because they'll frequent top 8s. IMO the patch should have hit them a little harder.
I don't see Peach getting significantly touched ever. No way Elite Smash data is supporting that. I'm not even sure anything is needed except maybe dtilt string's being tweaked a bit.

But yea, the others prolly need some tweaking. Snake definitely.
 

Rizen

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Slow, Situational, Somewhat decent I guess, Situational, Slow and easily avoided, Puny grab range and survivable in ranges after Ness's bthrow would kill.

So yeah, his killpower is existent, it's just having anything work other than a platform/landing read with usmash or an edgeguard with the spike ball is going to give this character a rough time.
To be fair we had this exact conversation about Wolf's kill options and he turned out fine. I'm not saying Plant's good but this is a game where throwing out kill moves without conversions is viable.
 

Lil Puddin

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Wat.. no. Those buffs were good, not revolutionary but still really good. Incidentally I think the sourspot buff you use for comparison might not be as useless as you intend for it to be either. In any case youre either a bitter wii fit main or someone who doesn't know jack about the character, this means that either way you are not fit (hehehehe) to voice opinions about him/her.

Also who played wii fit vs who playing what character? Wii fit is weird and not that easy a char to judge you cant just jump to conclusions like that. I'd be careful about asking for wii fit buffs, could tip the scales easily.
WFT is OK, I was just being extra, gorl. But def not someone to use vs fast characters or characters with much better frame data without having an uphill battle.

WFT has 2 issues. Wanting to have "realistic" yoga poses, which means frame data will never be fantastic, but then not having extended range, utilizing solar magic to extend the reach or boost base kill power. And then needing Deep Breathing (despite essentially being a Monodo Arts smorgasbord) being a necessity to get fair kills.

Thankfully WFT has some decent specials and Utilt/Ftilt are fast options to toss out during neutral. The grab speed is great even if the range is so-so and the throws themselves are lackluster. But if WFT is going to have swordie frame data for a chunk of their kit, then the least they could get is more reach. The other option would be weakening Deep Breathing's buff and transfer the kill power/damage to the moves' base power. But the extended reach is probably the easiest to do. Even if it's just a lazy 10%-15% increase. More intangibility might help even if it's just 1 frame before to 1 frame after the ground hitboxes are out.

But as it stands, our fit gorl is basically Zelda tier for SmashU. Which isn't as bad as bottom of the barrel. But it sure as hell ain't good in the long run either.

I don't see Peach getting significantly touched ever. No way Elite Smash data is supporting that. I'm not even sure anything is needed except maybe dtilt string's being tweaked a bit.

But yea, the others prolly need some tweaking. Snake definitely.
I agree that Peach is OK for a top character. She needs a little nerf somewhere, but I can't place it.

Snake on the other hand, oooof, that dude needs a nerf to his non-explosives' kill power. And then of course a lighter nerf to his explosive's kill power. Whenever I use him, I feel like I'm playing Zelda with Ganondork kill power/hitbox sizes. Which makes him feel... Yucky to use.
 
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Whether or not you read it as endemic of the overall sentiment, Salem going Lucina against Dabuz kinda highlights MKLeo's issues with the character.

Once you've exhausted your basic neutral game plan, Lucina has to commit to some very self-compromising plays in order to take a stock. Unless you have a terrible disadvantage, there's rarely ever going to be an opportunity where Lucina's best option against you isn't an FSmash or a raw up B, and given how both are fairly easy to predict and also punishable, you've basically gotten her number if you're not letting her condition you. Her approach options just aren't as good as her high ranked brethren, so she isn't really a character that controls the pace of the game as much as she's someone who reacts to it. On one hand that means she's good at tilting the opponent, but on the other hand that also means hits kinda stop mattering after a while since you know what she's gonna be looking for.

I don't think this character is top 5. She's not as inflexible as Ike, she's not going to be on as fast or as drastic of a downtrend for some obvious reasons, but she has a little too much in the way of diminishing returns for me to think that being fast + having a sword grants her an express pass to dominance. I get the sense that most of the better players have essentially started to figure out what makes this character tick.
 

Crooked Crow

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Header Cancel shield is going to help Wii Fit Trainer's neutral/disadvantage immensely. Characters can't just throw safe aerials at our shield any longer.

Deep Breathing has been buffed to 14 seconds, up from 10. Jab 3 hitbox is essentially a kill confirm due to FTilt, (at high enough %) which is very fast and covers ledge rolls fantastically. She does have low air speed, as somebody else pointed out, and awkward range, but Deep Breathing really does turn her advantage state into something very explosive and scary. It is possible to go 0-100% very quickly and take a stock. She is in a good position, probably high tier.

But Wii Fit Trainer is a weird character, so usage is going to remain relatively low. Our Discord has been seeing lots of new players though, so that's always re-assuring!
 
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Sean²

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Whether or not you read it as endemic of the overall sentiment, Salem going Lucina against Dabuz kinda highlights MKLeo's issues with the character.

Once you've exhausted your basic neutral game plan, Lucina has to commit to some very self-compromising plays in order to take a stock. Unless you have a terrible disadvantage, there's rarely ever going to be an opportunity where Lucina's best option against you isn't an FSmash or a raw up B, and given how both are fairly easy to predict and also punishable, you've basically gotten her number if you're not letting her condition you. Her approach options just aren't as good as her high ranked brethren, so she isn't really a character that controls the pace of the game as much as she's someone who reacts to it. On one hand that means she's good at tilting the opponent, but on the other hand that also means hits kinda stop mattering after a while since you know what she's gonna be looking for.

I don't think this character is top 5. She's not as inflexible as Ike, she's not going to be on as fast or as drastic of a downtrend for some obvious reasons, but she has a little too much in the way of diminishing returns for me to think that being fast + having a sword grants her an express pass to dominance. I get the sense that most of the better players have essentially started to figure out what makes this character tick.
As ridiculous as the notion will seem, this is why I like Marth better. He can struggle to get a kill. Sometimes. but if you really put the time and effort into spacing tippers, kills can come more easily than with Lucina, in some ways. You sacrifice the raw smash kills from anywhere, but can gain tipper ftilt and utilt kills. You keep the good edgeguarding and shield breaker shenanigans.

It's just that in most situations, there was no reason to pick Marth over Lucina if you were trying to win, if for any reason, the extra effort you need to put into Marth. I know MKLeo toyed with bringing Marth back, but it seems like he's had mixed results and has gone back to using Lucina in situations where sword characters do well.
 

Dream Cancel

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Whether or not you read it as endemic of the overall sentiment, Salem going Lucina against Dabuz kinda highlights MKLeo's issues with the character.

Once you've exhausted your basic neutral game plan, Lucina has to commit to some very self-compromising plays in order to take a stock. Unless you have a terrible disadvantage, there's rarely ever going to be an opportunity where Lucina's best option against you isn't an FSmash or a raw up B, and given how both are fairly easy to predict and also punishable, you've basically gotten her number if you're not letting her condition you. Her approach options just aren't as good as her high ranked brethren, so she isn't really a character that controls the pace of the game as much as she's someone who reacts to it. On one hand that means she's good at tilting the opponent, but on the other hand that also means hits kinda stop mattering after a while since you know what she's gonna be looking for.

I don't think this character is top 5. She's not as inflexible as Ike, she's not going to be on as fast or as drastic of a downtrend for some obvious reasons, but she has a little too much in the way of diminishing returns for me to think that being fast + having a sword grants her an express pass to dominance. I get the sense that most of the better players have essentially started to figure out what makes this character tick.
Imagine if Lucina mains were able to learn other top tier MUs to the same degree pros know the Lucina MU. Knowledge certainly offset strong options especially against a character like Lucina, who doesn't have a whole lot of gimmicky plays she can rely on.

As for MKLeo as a player, I don't know if it's me or he tends to get caught by obscure MUs more often than other top players. Lucina doesn't have that X-factor or tippers like Marth, so I think his opinion is expected.

edit: :ultgreninja:'d
 
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Idon

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You people really underestimate how much the lack of microspacing options, zero tipper setups, unsafe aerials on shield, worse kill throw than 4, inconsistent sideB, faster speed of the game, and large amount of safe noncommital aerials affect Marth's SSBU viability.

He technically can kill someone at 50, but... he probably won't find the situations to do so, at least not without putting himself at serious risk, especially compared to Lucina's consistency.
 
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I dont want to assume anything. But in MKLeo case I think he is going though a slight character crisis at the moment. However he does seem pretty serious about using :ultjoker:and is putting work into him. He got 2nd at EGS in Japan using only him
 
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Sean²

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You people really underestimate how much the lack of microspacing options, zero tipper setups, unsafe aerials on shield, worse kill throw than 4, inconsistent sideB, faster speed of the game, and large amount of safe noncommital aerials affect Marth's SSBU viability.

He technically can kill someone at 50, but... he probably won't find the situations to do so, at least not without putting himself at serious risk, especially compared to Lucina's consistency.
Hah, 'you people'.

Anyway, I'm not really speaking for anyone else but myself on that one. He's still not the most meta pick as a solo main, but I prefer him in some matchups over Lucina, if anything, for the tipper easily pushing out some of the more oppressive close range fighters like Pichu.
 

Arthur97

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I dont want to assume anything. But in MKLeo case I think he is going though a slight character crisis at the moment. However he does seem pretty serious about using :ultjoker:and is putting work into him. He got 2nd at EGS in Japan using only him
Joker is also really new. He could discard him down the road.
 

blackghost

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I've had this happen multiple times now and I had no idea why. Thank you so much for posting this, it was really screwing with my head.

Playing who is potentially the most hated character in the game is already hard, having your own aerial attacks nuke you into the blast zone suddenly on top of that is a big wooboi. I genuinely had no idea what the hell was doing this, it's been happening to me a lot since Joker is everywhere atm and I've had my Smash attacks reflected more times than I'd care to admit.

Is it bad I actually think Olimar is fun? Like for real, this is a serious question. I actually find his playstyle to be the funnest one on the roster, but I also don't play an extremely campy Olimar. I play a very, hover-just-out-range in neutral Olimar who can BECOME very campy if he's losing, but otherwise tries to alternate between passively-aggro / defensive to outright very aggro. I know that's not 100% optimal, but it's just how I like to play. Like I focus my Olimar game on a lot of grab setups and juggle combos, and a lot of aerial footsie spacing. I don't just run away and spam Side B and FSmash constantly.

If I use FSmash too many times in a match I genuinely start to hate myself. I know it's busted as hell and I should spam it.. I mean it (and USmash) can literally COMBO INTO THEMSELVES, AS SMASH ATTACKS.. but I just can't. I use USmash as a juggle starter and a kill tool, and FSmash mostly to tech chase or setup grabs. Otherwise I never touch the moves, they literally feel dirty to me now. I use DSmash a lot, though, comboing into it and getting some hitbox magic going (having both Pikmin hit) can lead to MASSIVE damage output from one attack.. and I love the launch angle. It's his only Smash attack I commonly use, though. I know not using a lot of smash attacks as an Olimar player is dumb, but I really do try to play him.. not like.. you know.
as a bayo main do not ever let what people say about your character get to you. you play who you want. i'm begning to hear this kind of talk on pichu, snake, and wolf as well. it needs to stop.

i know this is off-topic please dont punish me mods.
 

Daisycakes

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I don't see Peach getting significantly touched ever. No way Elite Smash data is supporting that. I'm not even sure anything is needed except maybe dtilt string's being tweaked a bit.

But yea, the others prolly need some tweaking. Snake definitely.
Yeah, :ultpeach::ultdaisy: are not easy to pick up and you need a fair bit of precision. That said their cheesy stuff like toad stalling and FS got nerfed, but that was more geared towards casual play. Daisy's turnips even got a buff to match Peach's, so I guess Nintendo think they are fine.
 

Lacrimosa

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Yeah, :ultpeach::ultdaisy: are not easy to pick up and you need a fair bit of precision. That said their cheesy stuff like toad stalling and FS got nerfed, but that was more geared towards casual play. Daisy's turnips even got a buff to match Peach's, so I guess Nintendo think they are fine.
At least we can now safely say that Zelda's FS is the best in the game :3. I just hope it'll get never nerfed, although it's pretty irrelevant to competitive play (unless you enter a Nintendo tournament where they have smash balls).
 

Rizen

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Whether or not you read it as endemic of the overall sentiment, Salem going Lucina against Dabuz kinda highlights MKLeo's issues with the character.

Once you've exhausted your basic neutral game plan, Lucina has to commit to some very self-compromising plays in order to take a stock. Unless you have a terrible disadvantage, there's rarely ever going to be an opportunity where Lucina's best option against you isn't an FSmash or a raw up B, and given how both are fairly easy to predict and also punishable, you've basically gotten her number if you're not letting her condition you. Her approach options just aren't as good as her high ranked brethren, so she isn't really a character that controls the pace of the game as much as she's someone who reacts to it. On one hand that means she's good at tilting the opponent, but on the other hand that also means hits kinda stop mattering after a while since you know what she's gonna be looking for.

I don't think this character is top 5. She's not as inflexible as Ike, she's not going to be on as fast or as drastic of a downtrend for some obvious reasons, but she has a little too much in the way of diminishing returns for me to think that being fast + having a sword grants her an express pass to dominance. I get the sense that most of the better players have essentially started to figure out what makes this character tick.
:ultlucina: doesn't have to fish for high commitment moves. Her zoning game is so good she can relatively safely poke an opponent with things like Fair, Nair and Ftilt, get them offstage and edge guard them. She also has Bair as a kill move that's safe.

If she is going for a read, Fsmash is one of the better smashes due to its huge disjoint and speed at f10. UpB is one of the best chain breaker moves with f1 invincibility in the air. She has great options. Basically what you're saying is if you accurately predict Lucina she's punishable; that's true of any character. Lucina's still one of the safer characters when spacing her attacks and she's fast enough to get away with it.
 
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Whether or not you read it as endemic of the overall sentiment, Salem going Lucina against Dabuz kinda highlights MKLeo's issues with the character.

Once you've exhausted your basic neutral game plan, Lucina has to commit to some very self-compromising plays in order to take a stock. Unless you have a terrible disadvantage, there's rarely ever going to be an opportunity where Lucina's best option against you isn't an FSmash or a raw up B, and given how both are fairly easy to predict and also punishable, you've basically gotten her number if you're not letting her condition you. Her approach options just aren't as good as her high ranked brethren, so she isn't really a character that controls the pace of the game as much as she's someone who reacts to it. On one hand that means she's good at tilting the opponent, but on the other hand that also means hits kinda stop mattering after a while since you know what she's gonna be looking for.

I don't think this character is top 5. She's not as inflexible as Ike, she's not going to be on as fast or as drastic of a downtrend for some obvious reasons, but she has a little too much in the way of diminishing returns for me to think that being fast + having a sword grants her an express pass to dominance. I get the sense that most of the better players have essentially started to figure out what makes this character tick.
I think this is one strong instance of cherrypick thb. Although I haven't seen Salem play Lucina before, he was struggling very hard versus Dabuz even with his Snake. Therefore I'm more inclined to believe that Salem's struggle as Lucina was more having to do with a player vs player issue, and not the character.
 
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Daisycakes

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At least we can now safely say that Zelda's FS is the best in the game :3. I just hope it'll get never nerfed, although it's pretty irrelevant to competitive play (unless you enter a Nintendo tournament where they have smash balls).
Zelda's Triforce is super strong but it only catches one fighter and it has to be at 100%. Peach and Daisy can clear out multiple opponents.

On :ultmarth::ultlucina: f smash. It comes out on frame 10 but it has a relatively high amount of endlag. Marth's tipper tilts however, come out quicker and kill nicely early, and are spammable on top of it.
 
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:ultlucina: doesn't have to fish for high commitment moves. Her zoning game is so good she can relatively safely poke an opponent with things like Fair, Nair and Ftilt, get them offstage and edge guard them. She also has Bair as a kill move that's safe.

If she is going for a read, Fsmash is one of the better smashes due to its huge disjoint and speed at f10. UpB is one of the best chain breaker moves with f1 invincibility in the air. She has great options. Basically what you're saying is if you accurately predict Lucina she's punishable; that's true of any character. Lucina's still one of the safer characters when spacing her attacks and she's fast enough to get away with it.
Pointing to Dolphin Slash's frame 1 invulnerability is the kind of boon that requires at least two separate asterisks attached, one of them being "relinquish all stage control upon a failed use". It's definitely not as good of a breaker move as Snake grenades or even Olimar's whistle. It's the most honest combo breaker at a top level, that much is for sure, as far as an all or nothing option goes, it's only fair that she allows herself to be KO'd if it can KO.

Critique against Lucina shouldn't be taken as a measure of "she's not good" - which seems to be a trend whenever she crops up - because she is. I would still rank her as top tier any day given the overall roster quality. That said, with where the best characters in the game have begun heading, I don't think she's the easy answer anymore, particularly when there's multiple characters that have a markedly better disadvantage than she has, don't get ledgetrapped as much as she does, don't get combo'd as easily as she does, and have edgeguarding that's pretty much as good as hers.

I think this is one strong instance of cherrypick thb. Although I haven't seen Salem play Lucina before, he was struggling very hard versus Dabuz even with his Snake. Therefore I'm more inclined to believe that Salem's struggle as Lucina was more having to do with a player vs player issue, and not the character.
Salem has played Lucina since day one of Ultimate. It was his first main before he became a dual main with Link. He's no MKLeo, but he's no slouch with the character either. I could point to Nairo's performance with the character before he dropped her as well if that's not suitable. The best Lucina main right now seems to be ProtoBanham, who dual mains her with Inkling.

She has an extremely well documented shelf life as a secondary pick in Ultimate so far - probably more so than any other character, but it's pretty interesting that you don't see as many waves with her from a solo perspective.
 
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Arthur97

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Pointing to Dolphin Slash's frame 1 invulnerability is the kind of boon that requires at least two separate asterisks attached, one of them being "relinquish all stage control upon a failed use". It's definitely not as good of a breaker move as Snake grenades or even Olimar's whistle. It's the most honest combo breaker at a top level, that much is for sure, as far as an all or nothing option goes, it's only fair that she allows herself to be KO'd if it can KO.

Critique against Lucina shouldn't be taken as a measure of "she's not good" - which seems to be a trend whenever she crops up - because she is. I would still rank her as top tier any day given the overall roster quality. That said, with where the best characters in the game have begun heading, I don't think she's the easy answer anymore, particularly when there's multiple characters that have a markedly better disadvantage than she has, don't get ledgetrapped as much as she does, don't get combo'd as easily as she does, and have edgeguarding that's pretty much as good as hers.



Salem has played Lucina since day one of Ultimate. It was his first main before he became a dual main with Link. He's no MKLeo, but he's no slouch with the character either. I could point to Nairo's performance with the character before he dropped her as well if that's not suitable. The best non-Lucina main right now seems to be ProtoBanham, who dual mains her with Inkling.

She has an extremely well documented shelf life as a secondary pick in Ultimate so far - probably more so than any other character, but it's pretty interesting that you don't see as many waves with her from a solo perspective.
In regards to the lack of mains, I've seen it thrown around that people just find her boring to either play or watch. So they either don't want to play her and/or they want to "entertain."
 

Jampman

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Thoughts post-Thunder Smash:

:ultolimar::ultsnake: are establishing themselves as top anti-meta threats because they have access to options that not only act as strong, low risk, versatile "panic buttons", (on characters that are seemingly balanced around slower-than-average movesets) but absolutely destroy rushdown tactics (mainly telegraphed aerial landings on shield, meaning they also reap great rewards from parries) which are very popular methods of play. They're able to play evasive/walling games and wear down opponents, and then blow up 1 bad approach with fast, forward facing KO options with reach. They're not characters you can fight by forcing your own gameplan onto them, you have to respect their unique attributes and learn the matchup proper and I think that's why they're particularly frustrating for a lot of people. These are the moves I'm talking about:
:ultolimar:: F11 F-smash: Great kill power, range and hitboxes, lingers and stuffs approaches, difficult to react to and punish. High max damage threshold. Ditto F12 U-smash which can be done OoS, and combos into/out of things, typically you see top Olimars net over 50% off of a single U-smash. F2 combo breaker in Down-B which tends to throw off impatient players that want to continue a juggle. Olimar can use this, Up-B, his aerials and Pikmin Throw to play head games with his opponent and lessen his disadvantage state. His grabs are slow relative to the cast but make up for it with the range they cover, especially pivot grab (and blue upthrows kill early). F9 Pikmin Throw is low commitment high reward DoT, and latched Pikmin force attacks out of opponents and eat hitboxes/increase hitlag, allowing Olimar to punish accordingly. Olimar easily forces mixups with the threat of Purple's active hitbox/power and Blue's kill throws.
:ultsnake:: F1 Grenade breaks combos anywhere, punishes landing on shield, and tells the opponent where they can and cannot go. F5 Dash attack is very difficult to react to and punish, and launches opponents at perfect angles for Snake's gameplan to continue. F6 U-tilt is maybe the best punish in the game. All amazing OoS/parry options.

Take notice of how many parries the top mains of these characters get per game. Higher than average.

To a lesser extent :ultwolf: has panic buttons in U-tilt and Dash attack, by way of kill power and speed.

I think proper counterplay to these characters is going to evolve into more empty hop usage to bait their powerful OoS punishes, approaching with run-up shield/parry (more viable thanks to 3.0.0 changes), and maybe even the return of walking in conjunction with shield, to bypass the inability to pull up shield in dash animations. Players will have to learn to be more patient (not passive, because you don't want to give these characters that much space).

With Olimar specifically, we still see players ignore Pikmin lineups in the heat of the moment and run into Purple Side-B, that'll change sooner or later...
Prodigy used :ultmario:'s airspeed to great effect against Myran, weaving in and out of his bubble and making unpredictable landings. Bair can be thrown out with ease to kill thrown and latched Pikmin and Cape is a non-trivial threat to 90% of Oli's moveset.

If I could tone down :ultolimar::ultsnake::ultwolf: without changing their gameplans much:

:ultolimar: 's Pikmin are easy to apply to opponents, and easy to pluck, so they don't need the damage output that they have. It would be interesting to see Pikmin Pluck having more lag between pulls; Pikmin would become more of a Luma in their presence and encourage opponents to keep pressuring Olimar. Right now you aren't really rewarded for killing Pikmin due to its speed. I would slightly increase F-smash and U-smash startup and end lag (see :ultpacman:'s smash frame data for something more reasonable that would fit this type of character), and reel in their KO power slightly. He doesn't need a rework, opponents just need more leniency and a couple more "exchanges" with him before they're in trouble.

Perhaps to encourage smart Pikmin lineups, the "non-killing" Pikmin should have their overall damage output/kill power reduced. Also, I don't have Olimar's hitbox visuals but I get the feeling some overall tightening of them would be healthy.

:ultsnake: probably just needs more startup on Dash attack, his main panic button, as it compounds his already unmatched stage control abilities, and either more startup (easier to avoid) or less kill power (more exchanges required) on U-tilt. Shrinking its horizontal hitbox (it's generous), so it serves as more of an anti-air could be a healthy change as well. I actually expect Dash attack to get toned down based on how good it is online.

:ultwolf: simply needs kill power reductions on U-tilt and Dash attack, his fallback burst KO options.

Can :ultsheik: crawl under any Pikmin moves? I'm very impressed with this character in 3.0.0. and I have full confidence VoiD is going to put her back on the map (he doesn't think she needs any more changes to be viable for what it's worth). It's not her damage output you have to look out for, it's her unmatched ability to control the stage (with her amazing frame data, positionally advantageous combos, Needles, and her movement specs) and set up for edgeguards/ledge traps. Her kill power is genuinely decent too for the kind of frame data she possesses. I can see her doing well against :ultsnake:, easy to combo but also easy for her to weave out of his reactive options (Grenade, U-tilt) and then continue a punish.
Someone in this thread said movement was typically underrated by smashers and I think :ultsheik: is a great example of that. Movement in general in this game can be very threatening and it's underdeveloped at the moment.
 

$.A.F.

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Since your posts tend to be very good this is unacceptable. Do act niggardly please. Do not deny us our share of your wisdom.
I’m sorry what? I don’t care if that’s an actual word (yes I know, it means stingy) there was no reason to use that specific word or even make this post other than to attempt at controversy or get as close as you socially acceptably can to using the N word. This post is a desperate bid for attention at best and racism at worst.
 
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Japan has its first PR (unofficial apparently but still a guideline) 100 players and the character diversity is wonderful, which is to be expected when your tournaments aren't for money (Unless the laws have changed since I last heard).

I do find it interesting with the Lucina talk going on on Protobanham's seemingly meteoric rise to 3rd in the country. I do not recall this tag in Smash 4 so I can only assume he's a newcomer to tournaments and if so that's even more impressive with Lucina. I know he just got second at the 1000 man Umebura which is honestly incredible given the number of top level talent present as well as just the sheer number of players.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13_Q152-K9Xtszt7awlZ4yQHZ_QC4GNVC_mzypsl1uQ4
 
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blackghost

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snake and Olimar are not anti META. Do people not know what meta means????
snake and olimar are meta.
japan always has character diversity in almost every game i see it play from duel links to marvel 3 to SF. japanese players dont want to merely copy they want to create. and they value characters that allow for expression and demand execution. that tournament was fun to watch but some looked exposed in the snake MU.
 

Zachmac

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snake and Olimar are not anti META. Do people not know what meta means????
snake and olimar are meta.
japan always has character diversity in almost every game i see it play from duel links to marvel 3 to SF. japanese players dont want to merely copy they want to create. and they value characters that allow for expression and demand execution. that tournament was fun to watch but some looked exposed in the snake MU.
I'm going to throw it out there that being meta and anti-meta are not mutually exclusive things. Something being anti-meta means that it's effective at countering some of the most popular metagame characters or strategies, which will often make them popular meta picks themselves.
 

Cheryl~

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Japan has its first PR (unofficial apparently but still a guideline) 100 players and the character diversity is wonderful, which is to be expected when your tournaments aren't for money (Unless the laws have changed since I last heard).

I do find it interesting with the Lucina talk going on on Protobanham's seemingly meteoric rise to 3rd in the country. I do not recall this tag in Smash 4 so I can only assume he's a newcomer to tournaments and if so that's even more impressive with Lucina. I know he just got second at the 1000 man Umebura which is honestly incredible given the number of top level talent present as well as just the sheer number of players.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13_Q152-K9Xtszt7awlZ4yQHZ_QC4GNVC_mzypsl1uQ4
ProtoBanHam played Smash 4 as well, but he mained Cloud in that game instead of Lucina. He also played Doubles more in that game but now plays Singles more in Ultimate which is probably why you see him around more. I really hope he flies out to an American major sometime so people can see how good his Lucina play is.
 

DunnoBro

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I agree that Peach is OK for a top character. She needs a little nerf somewhere, but I can't place it.

Snake on the other hand, oooof, that dude needs a nerf to his non-explosives' kill power. And then of course a lighter nerf to his explosive's kill power. Whenever I use him, I feel like I'm playing Zelda with Ganondork kill power/hitbox sizes. Which makes him feel... Yucky to use.
I'm thinkin Turnip Throw Speed/Power.

In matchups they're not much of a factor offstage, Peach looks very fine. But in others, she gets a LOT Of free, low committal kills.

Low-Float Fair also probably shouldn't cover EVERY ledge option. (Like, it even covers roll from behind her. Why?) The hitbox behind her should be removed.

As for Snake, there's honestly a lot of routes you could go about nerfing him.

The most conservative one would be a recovery nerf. Distance, mechanic change, etc. Overall, I think the biggest problem with him is the disadvantage state.

The 'Snake Can't Land' meme needs to die. People said the same thing with Smash 4 Bayo.

While yes, they have to go through a flowchart to land; They also mitigate the potential punishes and threaten potent reversals, and even retain the ability to advance their gamestate from the disadvantage position.

This is why both tended to live to such insane percents despite their supposed landing weaknesses.

In Snake's Case, it's recovering high. And feinting going instage or offstage while dropping explosives to deny ledge/landing traps.

Yea, Frame 5 auto-crossup Dash Attack which punishes people for DARING to ever jump away from a field of explosives is dumb. Frame 6 utilt that's stronger and bigger than mario's frame 9 upsmash is dumb. Auto-edgeguards in Nikita are dumb. Pseudo-Kill throws with downthrow are dumb.

But the fact that you need to go through an extensive flowchart just to GET to snake, then ANOTHER extensive flowchart to catch his landing is just not fun for anyone. Not the players, not the viewers.

And while I'm sure some can, and will argue none of these are inherently 'broken' (Like they did with smash 4 Bayo) It can definitely be more efficiently argued to be unfun and toxic for the game.
 
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Kiligar

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The problem with Snake is that despite being a hard zoner, the most polarizing in the entire game bar Olimar (who can encourage aggressive play, see Myran), his close range options are too strong. Not only too strong for a zoner, but too strong for a character. Who else has an Up Tilt like Snake? Anyone? Slap that move on any character that struggles to kill and suddenly you have a high tier/top tier. The move’s risk reward is not balanced at all. Same thing with Nikita, it should have more end lag, nothing looks cheesier than seeing an opponent go through huge lengths to avoid Nikita just to see another one heading their way instantly. Dash attack isn’t fit for a zoner, should be slower.
 

Nutty Sponge

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Yeah, :ultpeach::ultdaisy: are not easy to pick up and you need a fair bit of precision. That said their cheesy stuff like toad stalling and FS got nerfed, but that was more geared towards casual play. Daisy's turnips even got a buff to match Peach's, so I guess Nintendo think they are fine.
Disagree entirely. Peach has some hard Tech and play style choices, but I wouldn't say she's very hard to pick up.

The problem with Snake is that despite being a hard zoner, the most polarizing in the entire game bar Olimar (who can encourage aggressive play, see Myran), his close range options are too strong. Not only too strong for a zoner, but too strong for a character. Who else has an Up Tilt like Snake? Anyone? Slap that move on any character that struggles to kill and suddenly you have a high tier/top tier. The move’s risk reward is not balanced at all. Same thing with Nikita, it should have more end lag, nothing looks cheesier than seeing an opponent go through huge lengths to avoid Nikita just to see another one heading their way instantly. Dash attack isn’t fit for a zoner, should be slower.
Snake can be dreadful, but there's weaknesses that can be exploited and help you win. He's not very op imo
 

Kiligar

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Snake can be dreadful, but there's weaknesses that can be exploited and help you win. He's not very op imo
That’s the popular opinion, to assume Snake isn’t OP, or that he’s well balanced. Why are there so many Snakes in the top 8 of every major tournament? It’s not because the character is simple and strong, because then there should be more Lucinas and Palutenas. It’s because the character is very polarizing. It is said he has weaknesses, but not listed. I’ll list them here. Tall hurtbox, exploitable recovery. That’s all, it doesn’t balance out his strengths. His recovery is still great due to being able to go high above the stage while dropping C4, which can get you killed if you try to attack him, as what happened in the Salem v Samsora set. His grenades get rid of the cons of being combo able due to his weight and hurtbox, and he can trade with the opponent using these grenades. He’s a polarizing character, as I said. Nowhere as polarizing as Bayonetta sm4sh, Meta Knight in Brawl, Fox in Melee, Kirby in 64 etc.

There are a few things that would tweak him to make him more balanced, and I listed them above. This is not only for Snake, there are other overtuned characters like Olimar, and slightly overtuned character like Peach. A few fixes here and there is all that’s needed to balance them properly. If they’re not properly balanced right now, and they aren’t, then what is wrong with fixing them. The current mindset is don’t nerf, find counterplay. Which is nice and all but only if the subject is already balanced. You can counterplay as hard as you want, but improper balance gives your opponent an advantage as soon as the game says GO! Zero outplayed Salem at Evo, but guess what happened. One combo from Salem and it was over. This is an extreme example but we shouldn’t overlook imbalances just because we say don’t nerf without thinking. The Nikita nerf was a step in the right direction. It was broken before, and is still slightly broken now. Who here says that Nikita shouldn’t have been nerfed? The move was so oppressive over half the roster benefited from its nerf. No nerfs only buffs is not always correct. Both are needed. Duck Hunt is an example of an only nerf character, when he wasn’t that strong to begin with. He suffered from the projectile nerf and his side Special nerf. He received a slight buff to can lag. That’s not enough buffs.

I have been going on for some time, but I want to make clear my point. The objective as far as I understand is balance. And both nerfs and buffs are needed to get there. Regardless if you want a character to remain slightly overpowered, no. The end goal I see is a fair meta , not a meta game centered around 12 out of 75+ characters.
 

Sean²

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The problem with Snake is that despite being a hard zoner, the most polarizing in the entire game bar Olimar (who can encourage aggressive play, see Myran), his close range options are too strong. Not only too strong for a zoner, but too strong for a character. Who else has an Up Tilt like Snake? Anyone? Slap that move on any character that struggles to kill and suddenly you have a high tier/top tier. The move’s risk reward is not balanced at all. Same thing with Nikita, it should have more end lag, nothing looks cheesier than seeing an opponent go through huge lengths to avoid Nikita just to see another one heading their way instantly. Dash attack isn’t fit for a zoner, should be slower.

I wouldn't really consider Snake a true zoner archetype. He's more of a trap character. He forces you into risky options by covering every option with stationary and timed hitboxes, including those on his body. He can zone if he needs to, but isn't quite as strong as some other characters are at it - or at least doesn't seem he was meant to be. I would consider a true zoner as a character who throws out stuff to keep as much space between them and the opponent as possible, with ranged hitboxes that can only be controlled minimally by the player. Projectiles that go out once and disappear, or boomerang back to the character. Examples being Samus, Toon Link, the Belmonts, etc. Snake fits more into the same category as Link/Duck Hunt. I think it adds some sense as to why he has some strong close-quarters hitboxes as well.
 
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I wouldn't really consider Snake a true zoner archetype. He's more of a trap character. He forces you into risky options by covering every option with stationary and timed hitboxes, including those on his body. He can zone if he needs to, but isn't quite as strong as some other characters are at it - or at least doesn't seem he was meant to be. I would consider a true zoner as a character who throws out stuff to keep as much space between them and the opponent as possible, with ranged hitboxes that can only be controlled minimally by the player. Projectiles that go out once and disappear, or boomerang back to the character. Examples being Samus, Toon Link, the Belmonts, etc. Snake fits more into the same category as Link/Duck Hunt. I think it adds some sense as to why he has some strong close-quarters hitboxes as well.
The "trapper" archetype is definitely a variant of the zoner and in a lot of games they do both. See Ky in XRD, Testament in past GG games, Poison in SF4, and yes, Snake in Smash. If your character controls stage space at a distance and reduces options by putting hitboxes on the stage, they're a zoner.
 
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DunnoBro

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That’s the popular opinion, to assume Snake isn’t OP, or that he’s well balanced. Why are there so many Snakes in the top 8 of every major tournament? It’s not because the character is simple and strong, because then there should be more Lucinas and Palutenas. It’s because the character is very polarizing. It is said he has weaknesses, but not listed. I’ll list them here. Tall hurtbox, exploitable recovery. That’s all, it doesn’t balance out his strengths. His recovery is still great due to being able to go high above the stage while dropping C4, which can get you killed if you try to attack him, as what happened in the Salem v Samsora set. His grenades get rid of the cons of being combo able due to his weight and hurtbox, and he can trade with the opponent using these grenades. He’s a polarizing character, as I said. Nowhere as polarizing as Bayonetta sm4sh, Meta Knight in Brawl, Fox in Melee, Kirby in 64 etc.
Yea, like what even is Snake's weakness? Lmao

His advantage and neutral are both top tier. And his disadvantage just BARELY exists. He's vulnerable, moreso than Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo. But it's hardly a weakness.
 

Sean²

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The "trapper" archetype is definitely a variant of the zoner and in a lot of games they do both. See Ky in XRD, Testament in past GG games, Poison in SF4, and yes, Snake in Smash. If your character controls stage space at a distance and reduces options by putting hitboxes on the stage, they're a zoner.
Zoner, yes. But he's not a 'true zoner', or a 'classic zoner' like Samus or the Belmonts. At least that's how I see it. 'Zoner' can cover a pretty broad spectrum of playstyles, but you can break them down to different playstyles that may end up being very different from one another.
 

SwagGuy99

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Yea, like what even is Snake's weakness? Lmao

His advantage and neutral are both top tier. And his disadvantage just BARELY exists. He's vulnerable, moreso than Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo. But it's hardly a weakness.
Frame data. Snake's frame data is kind of crap.

Characters that have fast frame data and high kill power (:ultdoc: actually comes to mind here) can give :ultsnake: trouble, especially if they have a good projectile (:ultluigi:'s fireball and :ultpikachu:'s thunder jolt are two examples) or a reflector/absorber (:ultdoc::ultmario::ultfalco::ultfox::ultdarkpit::ultpit::ultness::ultlucas::ultgnw: all have one) can give Snake trouble if they can get past his wall of projectiles. However, even though these characters can give :ultsnake: a lot of trouble if they get in, even characters with relfelectors can have trouble getting in if Snake plays right.

I'd argue that :ultdoc: does surprisingly well in this matchup because of his kill power and reflector but others may not agree with that opinion, IDK.

Edit: :ultwolf: has a pretty good reflector too as does :ultmewtwo::ultkrool::ultkingdedede: and I think :ultgunner:
 
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