None of which is really applicable, though. I can't speak for Ness, someone else did that, but Olimar slaughters Plant in the MU for the reasons I mentioned. I mean you can have two purples on deck at once to assure you can easily clank Patooie shots, and the projectile is so slow and predictable as-is it's barely a threat in neutral. People respect poison cloud waaaay too much and it's not really a threat if you know how to jump and roll. Side B alone makes Plant lose this MU, because Olimar can literally just Side B % camp plant until it builds to like 120 or so, then go in for an easy kill or wait for a free punish by making them approach. Olimar can outcamp Plant in every which way, and Olimar can outapproach plant in every which way. Olimar beats the plant BADLY offstage, I DAir spike more PP's than I do most other characters because of how linear his recovery is when going low. Plant doesn't have good juggle tools to keep Olimar off the ground for long periods, but Olimar can literally ladder juggle the Plant into the BZ with UAir's.. it's just.. no. Plant loses.
There is literally nowhere within PP's range PP can sit without being at risk for getting stuck with Side B Pikmin, more than just Whites too. From there, Plant can either take the Pikmin %, or Plant can try to try getting them off and potentially get trapped in one of its laggy moves which results in an easy punish from Olimar. Plant gets BEAT UP BAD in this MU, I spent the entire night (drunk, granted.. so this was NOT for science lmfao) playing my practice partner's PP because this subject was fresh and he likes the character. My opinions only strengthened. I kept PPY or PYB in my Pikmin lineup for 90% of the matches, it worked well, my favorite was PPY as it let me easily clank Patooie shots while not losing my only Purple, and gave me another Purple to use for Side B setups, USmash and such.. and a yellow to use for Side B, FSmash and aerials. Plant didn't stand a chance.
So much misinformation. Purple would only stop Ptooie if already in a position not to hit Olimar. That being f smash. If a purple up smashed Ptooie, it would still drop and hit Olimar and kill the purple. Side b gets stopped by Cloud man. If you do a Ptooie drop with Plant it invalidates jumping and rolling towards him.
And who has trouble offstage? First of all Olimar’s recovery has no hitbox (unless he wants to go into free fall) and Plant has quite a few ways to hit it and great ledge trapping. He actually has a spike of his own with great knockback and is the fastest in the game not to mention knocks Olimar into an edge guard situation even if it misses. Yeah, I’m gonna have to nope the heck out on this one.
Olimar’s up air is slightly better than Plant. He isn’t laddering him with his two up airs out of a full hop or 4 where the last two are descending. Plant has the same amount of Up airs out of a full hop, and only one less in the latter situation I mentioned (as in Fullhop Up Air, DJ up air, and a descending up air or two depending on the characters mentioned). Also Ptooie is great for juggling as it can catch airdodges, does crazy damage, kills hella early, and has an even bigger hitbox now. He does have the juggle tools. I already went over half of this in my last response. Did you read it? I swear I covered almost all of this.
And again, side b doesn’t go through cloud and you can shield when it dissipates since Pikmin don’t do much shield damage, especially compared to Ptooie.
I’m not gonna lie, getting you to listen is hard. Every time I tell you anything I obligatorily say to myself “oh no he has AirPods in, he can’t hear us”. Because it seems sir that your hearing or vision is impaired, or you just don’t listen to me no matter what.
Yoyo's hitbox wasn't nerfed, the charge time nerf affected little to nothing you just need to time the release better. It still hits below the ledge just as good as it did before. The move also has mutlihits, if you are trying to clang leafs you would need to clang them all.
Also regarding juggles, Ptooie would be an effective way to stop them if Ness didn't have PKT but with PKT Ness doesn't have to be under his opponents to juggle them. If your on a platform stage Ness can sit under a platform and make landing very hard for Plant who lacks a good hitbox he can place below himself to clang the thunder ball, the tail is transcendent if you try to hit it you'll just get hit and then followed up into the thunder ball. Stalling in the air with Down B will just let the Ness get free damage and start another thunder while you are in lag before you begin descending again.
Again Ptooie in neutral isn't hard for Ness to get around. DJC PKF allows Ness to advance while throwing the fire out, at best for plant, Ness mis spaces and the fire doesn't hit Plant but Ptooie flies over head, at worst for plant Ptooie still whiffs overhead and plant is now stuck in PKF while Ness is close to him. If you've ever seen Ness vs Ivysaur, its a similar strategy to dealing with Razor leaf, DJC PKF punishes Razor Leaf very well due to the commitment of using it and allows Ness to completely avoid the leaf in return. Razor leaf being completely reactable much like Ptooie is helps with this. Ness also ha the option of just getting within Ptooie range making Plant uncomfortable, if you don't throw it it's likely you'll take a PKF, if you do throw it Ness just takes the time to go over it and get closer. Ultimately Plant's best option is to back off which gives up stage and is a net win for Ness. This isn't just Ness specific but rather anti-Ptooie counterplay. If you've ever seen Pichu or Pikachu chase after their thrown Tjolts to get grabs on opponents who shield them, it's the same concept. Don't shield it. Big difference being that the Chus are fast enough to actually capitalize if they read right after a Tjolt. Plant isn't nor can he advance once he's began a Ptooie.
Correct. I was referring to the timing. It does affect Ness pretty significantly actually in this regard since he has to do a smash attack far more often to actually to get the yo-yo hitbox back on ledge and during the smash attack he cannot have it on ledge leaving an opening more of the time. As for the leaves, they’re a multi hit too. As long as you fly them correctly the leaves should actually protect you from getting hit by the charge.
Plant gets put into a juggle situation if he recovers high no? But in this scenario since you should be either A. Just recovering from the lag of down smash or B. Doing a down smash, Plant could only really be caught by a juggle in scenario A. because of how slow PK Thunder is (frame 20, and has longer travel time than PK Thunder) so it won’t catch high recovery if Ness was using Yo-yo at ledge since there’ll be too much lag. You still actually descend using down b b and it takes the hit from thunder because armor. If you are at a range where long stem can’t hit Ness, Plant would have to be far enough away that Plant would have enough time to have gotten to the ground and shielded before Thunder would reach anyways and he wouldn’t have had to use down special because he wouldn’t have been put in a juggle. Also, the armor heavily reduces damage.
For the rest, like I said, can I get a video of the angle or something? Like for all I know DJC Pk Fire is a frame 1 warlock punch. I need answers on how it looks and what angle it travels at to see if some tech like Ptooie dropping could cover it. For now, I’ll leave this section blank. Seriously, please give me a video or place to look for one.
OK so the thing that makes Ness' recovery exploitable more than anything else is that characters with decent overall air mobility can cover everything he can do. The classic example is Marth, who has this + a disjoint and a counter. No matter how Ness moves/weaves, or when he uses his double jump, or when he uses PKT, Marth can position himself in ways that he can react and hit Ness 100% of the time pretty much.
I do not see how Plant does this.
Ness - unlike Little Mac, the original comparison - has a lot of flexibility in his recovery by virtue of his air acceleration (way more important than his top air speed here), bigass airdodge, and multiple angles on PKT2 (and PKT1).
If Plant could spit a ptooie quickly to cover the low and run off double jump bair to cover the alternative, then safe, he has a good edgeguard on Ness.
To my knowledge, Plant cannot do this. He is too slow, ptooie is too slow, and Ness is too flexible.
Either Plant needs a good read or Ness has to **** up for Plant's edgeguards to work. He has nothing special to swing the matchup in this regard like Marth or Chus for example, this totally relies on one player just outplaying the other.
IMO the best thing Plant has in this (and most?) matchups is his back air. I swear they copied that move from Zard, and it has a similar effect on the mu. It stops Ness from whaling on Plant with his forward air, which is otherwise stupidly good in this matchup since plant does not have the angles, disjoint, range, speed, or favourable risk-reward ratios to seriously discourage Ness abusing it with anything else except his back air. It plugs an important weakness for Plant in this mu, and it actually plugs it rather well.
Literally run off and hold Ptooie near ledge alone covers air dodge towards ledge if ya use any of Plant’s horizontal (f and b) throws to lob him off past 25-30. It also covers a lot of angles of PKT as well and can catch Ness’s slow double jump. And if you have a stock lead and force a PKT, (usually achieved by conditioning with run off Ptooie) You can run off and Piranhacopter him into the Blast zone when you’re at (not on) ledge for a free suicide kill.
EDIT: As for my thoughts on Link, I personally think Young Link>Than Adult. However I don’t know much with Toon Link. Some have him as low, others high. Can somebody who plays the character give me an opinion and breakdown of why that is?
better than 
.
