Coming Right Back At Ya: Kirby for Smash Switch discussion

[Kewkky]

Oh, one actual thing I wanted to ask... I was attending my first Ultimate tournament two days ago, and I noticed that Inhale>Footstool is still a true combo against Wolf. No matter which player I did it against, as long as they used Wolf, it always worked. Is there a resource that shows which characters can still be Inhale>Footstool'd? I looked through the Resources thread and didn't find anything relating to it. I also don't have someone near me who I can figure it out with.

 

[DrCactus]

Kirby with the ability to use Shulk's Monado powers regardless of who he's fighting (which would become permanent online since you can't taunt) seems like it would be pretty broken - he'd basically be impossible to KO whenever he uses the Jump Art, for starters.

Even offline, the only way to remove that significant power boost in this scenario would be if the Kirby player chooses to do it, when they'd have no reason to.

Perhaps make it so that Kirby does not start with the ability, but inhaling will guarantee the ability instead?
It would still require kirby to pull off an inhale, and it would still be possible to knock it out of him.

 

[MercuryPenny]

the copy ability shouldn’t be knocked out of him, period. it’s a pointless mechanic that lowers the reward of something that’s already high-risk low-reward.

also what’s the 20% bonus i’ve seen mentioned in passing a few times?

 

[Lunardog15]

whats inhale>foot stool?
the %20 percent bonus is a buff to the inhaled ability

 

[Kewkky]

Inhale>footstool was a Brawl gimmick where you inhale someone offstage and fall to your death, BUT! If the opponent mashes out and their character falls faster than Kirby, you can mash jump and DI towards them, which gives you a free footstool out of it. If they don't mash out, then it ends up being a kirbycide.

In Brawl, like half the cast could be inhale>footstool'd, but the tactic got nerfed in Smash 4.

 

[Lunardog15]

lololololololololololol I need to try this

 

[MAtgSy]

With confirmation of Joker's neutral B, Kirby is now packing heat!

 

[OnyanRings]

With confirmation of Joker's neutral B, Kirby is now packing heat!

Kirby with a gun... THE PROFECY FORETOLD THIS, RUN WHILE YOU CAN FOOLS !

Spoiler

 

[Deleted member]

....If Kirby can inhale him first. But Kirby’s inhale still SUCKS.
Why so serious?

 

[Lunardog15]

Internet: what have you got there?

Kirby: a Gun

Internet: nooooooooooooooo!

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Neutral Special

• Increased the amount of time that Copy Abilities cannot be lost by taking damage
• Made it easier for Kirby to retain Copy Abilities after getting hit

SWEET BABY JESUS! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THIS WHAT I WANTED! YES, I KNOW KIRBY NEEDS MORE IMPORTANT BUFFS BUT THIS IS WHAT I WANTED, THANK YOU JESUS CHRIST!

 

[HyperL]

Someone needs to test the strengh of those buffs though.

 

[Ethan Weegee]

If it's any less likely for the enemy to knock away Kirby's only advantage, I'm happy.

 

[OnyanRings]

Kirby's clmibing back up, slowly but surely.

I sure hope this isn't his last buff, let us pray for more !

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby, even with the buffs given in 3.0.0, I’m afraid won’t account for the key issues he’s been suffering.
I’d really like to see his grab game and aerials improve.

 

[Kewkky]

The buffs were not in the right places. I expect no change to his metagame at all.

 

[KirbySquad101]

While the down throw and neutral aerial buffs don't really do much for me, the Inhale and Final Cutter buffs are awesome:

- One of the most annoying things about using Kirby was that even if you got the Inhale Copy Ability, you would lose almost instantaneously to the dumbest stuff; it was like a punishment for landing Inhale on someone. The change does make the idea of inhaling someone for their Copy Ability a lot more promising, especially in specific match-ups where Kirby needs it.

- One thing I never understood about Kirby's design is that his recovery's actually pretty easy to intercept, when... ya know, that's supposed to be one of the selling points of his character? Back then, it was so easy to gimp Final Cutter because the hitbox on it was so poor and Kirby would always take a while to grab onto the ledge, making it easy to edgeguard him. This change definitely helps with that becoming less likely.

- USmash buffs is pretty nice too, looking back, I did find it questionable that the clean hit was only active for 1 frame, when other characters with flip kicks had theirs active for 2+ frames. Still solid.

Anyways, I'm not convinced he's anything more than low tier, but I appreciate a few of his changes and think some of them are in the right direction.

 

[TimG57867]

While the down throw and neutral aerial buffs don't really do much for me, the Inhale and Final Cutter buffs are awesome:

- One of the most annoying things about using Kirby was that even if you got the Inhale Copy Ability, you would lose almost instantaneously to the dumbest stuff; it was like a punishment for landing Inhale on someone. The change does make the idea of inhaling someone for their Copy Ability a lot more promising, especially in specific match-ups where Kirby needs it.

- One thing I never understood about Kirby's design is that his recovery's actually pretty easy to intercept, when... ya know, that's supposed to be one of the selling points of his character? Back then, it was so easy to gimp Final Cutter because the hitbox on it was so poor and Kirby would always take a while to grab onto the ledge, making it easy to edgeguard him. This change definitely helps with that becoming less likely.

- USmash buffs is pretty nice too, looking back, I did find it questionable that the clean hit was only active for 1 frame, when other characters with flip kicks had theirs active for 2+ frames. Still solid.

Anyways, I'm not convinced he's anything more than low tier, but I appreciate a few of his changes and think some of them are in the right direction.

Why wouldn't they? Down Throw is now the most damaging option off grab at higher percents and every percent counts when trying to get the foe to kill percent. Particularly Up Throw percent. You'd be astonished by how many games people lose because their kill move was 1-2% away from being a surefire kill and you'll probably be Down Throwing about 3-6 times a stock so it'll add up. Plus this makes D-Air to Grab to Down Throw a more damaging conversion. Especially useful if you're not confident in being able to get the D-Air to strong Up Tilt.

As for N-Air, the mid air end lag buff makes it even D-Air. This makes N-Air more usable as an edgeuarding tool. Particular when you ledge drop double jump it. It also makes it a bit better when in mid air disadvantage as if you manage to hit your foe with it you'll be able to act faster without needing to land. This also makes it better in some recover y situations like Snake's Nikita.

Regarding comments on metagame, while I do agree in that these buffs aren't going to shoot Kirby's viability up drastically, many are much needed QoL changes and over time the effects add up. Plus Kirby's metagame is still extremely unrefined (Particularly advantage state. Edgeguarding is SO unoptimized and I still rarely see people doing anything besides F-Air or D-Air out of F Throw amongst other things) so it's not like his meta needs buffs to actually improve. Plus with the Up Smash improvements I expect it to used more in his punish and OOS game. And Copy RNG definitely was an area that needed to be addressed. Would like it to improved further down the line but I'll take what I can get.

Obviously Kirby needs more improvements but these certainly help and it's no excuse not to refine the character we currently have. I didn't rely on buffs to improve his meta and I still don't. No one should really seeing as how patches are still modest atm. The changes are becoming more profound but at a much slower pace than in SSB4.

 

[KirbySquad101]

To be honest, I am considering picking up Kirby again; not as a main (that slot is still reserved for lol), but he is starting to feel more fun to play for me than before.

 

[Deleted member]

Hasn't Kirby improved with his campy game? Sure he's got a small shield, but has because shield damage has been nerfed for everyone, wouldn't this be a slight plus for matchups dealing with projectiles?

 

[Kewkky]

I dunno, I personally never felt like his shield was an issue. His weakness against campy characters remains the same: because he's so slow, it's near impossible to get past all the attacks and punish the opponent before the opponent can react properly.

 

[Lunardog15]

that's also on big stages tho

 

[Ethan Weegee]

Is there any list of changes? I still don't know what exactly has changed.

 

[Deleted member]

• 
  Up smash's clean hit has a longer duration, with the late hit having a shorter duration instead (frame 12 (strong)/13-14 (mid)/15-17 (late) → 12-14/15-16/17).
• 
  Neutral aerial has less ending lag (FAF 63 → 55) and auto-cancels earlier (frame 56 → 51).
• 
  The first 9 hits of down throw deal more damage (0.8% → 1%, total: 10.2% → 12%).
• 
  Kirby cannot lose Copy Abilities received by Inhale for a longer period of time (5 seconds → 10).
• 
  Kirby is less likely to lose Copy Abilities when getting hit (Chance to lose: Damage Received/70 * 130% → Damage Received/70 * 100%).
• 
  Final Cutter can snap to the ledge earlier (frame 36 → 33).

List of changes from the 3.0.0 update for Kirby. Taken from the Smash Wiki on Kirby (SSBU).

 

[Ethan Weegee]

Ooh, I really like the neutral air buff, I always felt it was a high risk, low reward move because of the start and end lag.

 

[GreatKnightEcho]

(which would become permanent online since you can't taunt

...about that...

Spoiler

Kirby can taunt online if he has a copy ability The most OP tech

 

[boysilver400]

I really wish the very few Kirby players we have could start going to bigger events, or at the very least, C-tiers. Komota and RK are the only ones I know of that actually do, and they only go to Frostbite and Pound respectively.

 

[Deleted member]

I really wish the very few Kirby players we have could start going to bigger events, or at the very least, C-tiers. Komota and RK are the only ones I know of that actually do, and they only go to Frostbite and Pound respectively.

To be honest, Kirby’s actually doing decently in the locals and regionals, it’s just that they aren’t prominent on Youtube and among the pros’ radar. TimG57867 mentioned people like Dreams and Fontz doing well outside of Youtube. SuperGirlsKel (though more known for Sonic) also plays Kirby in the SSBMontreal Youtube channel.

The reason why Kirby’s so low with many Smash Bros players is because they keep citing his low air speed and poor endurance as his primary flaws. Air speed’s overexaggerated; just look at King Dedede with players like ZAKI. Pichu has worse endurance than Kirby and yet the mouse has excellent results. Kirbs has clear pros with his combo game and edgeguarding; it’s just that a fair amount underrate where he shines and simply focus on his flaws.

 

[Kewkky]

Air speed’s overexaggerated;

Sadly, it's not overexaggerated. Honestly if he either had 1) disjointed aerials/tilts, 2) more range in his grab/true combos that start from a grab, 3) a spammable projectile, or 4) better aerial mobility, he'd be leaps and bounds better. Definitely being held back a lot because of his flaws.

It's very sad, but Kirby really is a terrible character. IMO his strengths don't do enough to win against his many flaws.

just look at King Dedede with players like ZAKI.

Key differences between King Dedede and Kirby are how fast they fall and how far their respective aerials reach. DDD can just shorthop an aerial and land pretty fast, not to mention that he even has disjointed aerials (uair, fair, dair), while Kirby jumps slow + falls slow + moves slow in the air + has zero disjointed aerials (with the exception of his VERY punishable specials). It just so happens that this is countered by the fact that Kirby is pretty light so he's not easily combo'd, unlike DDD.

Pichu has worse endurance than Kirby and yet the mouse has excellent results.

He has awesome speed, disjoints in tons of attacks both in the ground and in the air, a spammable projectile that can gimp offstage, and can kill pretty early with a few safe moves. Not to mention his super fast ground speed, which allows him to punish players that do short-hop aerials/rolls/whatever.

 

[Deleted member]

Sadly, it's not overexaggerated. Honestly if he either had 1) disjointed aerials/tilts, 2) more range in his grab/true combos that start from a grab, 3) a spammable projectile, or 4) better aerial mobility, he'd be leaps and bounds better. Definitely being held back a lot because of his flaws.

It's very sad, but Kirby really is a terrible character. IMO his strengths don't do enough to win against his many flaws.


Key differences between King Dedede and Kirby are how fast they fall and how far their respective aerials reach. DDD can just shorthop an aerial and land pretty fast, not to mention that he even has disjointed aerials (uair, fair, dair), while Kirby jumps slow + falls slow + moves slow in the air + has zero disjointed aerials (with the exception of his VERY punishable specials). It just so happens that this is countered by the fact that Kirby is pretty light so he's not easily combo'd, unlike DDD.


He has awesome speed, disjoints in tons of attacks both in the ground and in the air, a spammable projectile that can gimp offstage, and can kill pretty early with a few safe moves. Not to mention his super fast ground speed, which allows him to punish players that do short-hop aerials/rolls/whatever.

All right, while he does have several glaring flaws, he's still doing good outside of notable tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's doing all right in the locals and even regionals. Whenever I look at an online post about the flaws with Kirby and/or how to improve him, the number one thing that shows up: increase air speed. Like, I know it needs work, but I want a character that's more reliable on combos and has more damage output. Again, Dedede has the worst airspeed in the game. Are most people complaining DDD's airspeed frequently? No! I honestly think air speed isn't as much of a factor here. Kirby's supposed to be a floaty character with not much air speed. I don't think a spammable projectile would suit his character either. That'd be like making Ganon's ground speed as fast as Fox's.
But I think the first two points you covered I'd agree they need the most work. His range is bleh; I'd like his arms to be extended (marginally, I'm not gonna expand them to oblivion) so that he can deal with fighters quicker and easier. His entire grounded and aerial moveset need sto have much less startup and endlag, since if you're designed to be floaty, you're not supposed to be lightning quick speed-wise. All you need to do is have Kirby's moves come out 1-2 frames faster than Dedede's moves. An example's Dedede's inhale. Why do we see the penguin succ more than the pink puffball? It has more range and takes less time to come out, making it more rewarding than Kirbs'.
So, if Kirbs wants to prove himself better than some cast members, all he needs to do is to get his entire moveset a bit faster than Dedede's, get more damage output (1-2% on moves like his tilts/aerials), and increase his range a little bit. Maybe this won't drastically shoot up his viability, but Kirby can definitely improve. Any buffs are welcome. I think Kirby, while overlooked by a fair amount, just needs more attention to his positives. Sucky air speed isn't the end of the world.

 

[boysilver400]

Just saw the match that Komota was in for the 2GG grand tour in Ohio. He still makes Kirby look good, but geez, his grab game needs more of a buff than I thought. At least give up throw more knock back and fix the stupid f-throw/battlefield issue.

Still, he did what he could, but not sure why he switched to Isabelle though. Admittedly this is the first time I’ve seen his doggo, but hisKirby looks so much cleaner and better.

He’s out at 9th I think.

 

[Deleted member]

Did he take out anybody notable along the way? And do you mean 9th out of 200+ people?

 

[boysilver400]

Only 125 people were at the tournament, so while it isn’t PGR worthy it’s still an impressive amount. There were no big names but he did beat someone he was projected to lose to to get top 12.

 

[boysilver400]

Albion 4, an A-tier, is this weekend, and Jesuischoq is participating. I’m interested to see how well he fares, but I’m kinda pessimistic too, since I don’t want to get my hopes up too high, and he’s projected to just miss top 32. Even if that’s pretty decent for Kirby’s standards, I highly doubt it will change the general perception on him.

I wish him luck...

 

[Deleted member]

Any big names worth noting? Top 32 is not just decent; it’s a huge victory for the Kirby community alike. According to OrionStats, it says we have the third-worst placing (with only Mac and Pit falling behind). Seriously, a top 32 would be pulling off a Zaki, and I bet there’s murderously strong players there.

I think that with the amount of momentum from Europe he picks up, he’ll blaze his pools (and maybe top 128/64), and then get ROB’ed by a swordie/projectile-based character

 

[Cheryl~]

Any big names worth noting? Top 32 is not just decent; it’s a huge victory for the Kirby community alike. According to OrionStats, it says we have the third-worst placing (with only Mac and Pit falling behind). Seriously, a top 32 would be pulling off a Zaki, and I bet there’s murderously strong players there.

I think that with the amount of momentum from Europe he picks up, he’ll blaze his pools (and maybe top 128/64), and then get ROB’ed by a swordie/projectile-based character

A bunch of top European talent is participating, including the Number 1 player, Glutonny. As for overseas talent, I know Dabuz (a Top 10 player in the world) is coming but I’m not sure who else is participating.

 

[boysilver400]

MVD and Raito are also highly seeded. Quik and Mr.R are there also.

 

[Deleted member]

Reiko, a Pikachu, beats Jesuischoq 2-0. Jesuis is not out yet, but it’s gonna be a tough bracket for him

 

[Deleted member]

Reiko, a Pikachu, beats Jesuischoq 2-0. Jesuis is not out yet, but it’s gonna be a tough bracket for him as he’s top 64 as far as I know.

Update: If he loses against Wreck it Mundo, he’ll finish at 97th.

 

[Deleted member]

Just noticed Jesuischoq got eliminated by Greward 1-3. Just like boysilver said, just missed top 32.
Also does anybody have recordings for any of the Kirby plays? I would love to share my thoughts on them.