Holy crap. I had no idea our Smashboard...board was already up. Well, with the SSB4 Kirby area pretty much dead, it's nice to have another place to discuss all things Kirby besides the Discord!
Anyways, from Discord, we've been analyzing a lot of stuff with frame data being the big one. Our hardcore dude Sdn has counted the frames on a lot of things, including landing lag which has seen major improvements all around. I'll copy my posts from there:
My Post:
"For comparisons sake, this was the landing of Kirby vs. Ryu in SSB4. The numbers are listed with this aerial order from Kurogane:
N-Air – F-Air – B-Air – U-Air – D-Air
6 + 14 + 12 + 14 + 18 = 64
10 + 13 + 17 + 12 + 17 = 69
Ryu beat us by 5 frames last time.
Kirby now stacks in at: 6 + 11 + 10 + 9/10 + 17 = 53/54
Assuming our analysis is correct, this is what other characters would have to beat to take the title from us again assuming our lag stays like this. "
Sdn's:
"6 + 8 + 10 + 7 + 17 = 48 "
If basically if our analysis is correct and nothing changes in this field, the sum of aerial landing lag on all of Kirby's aerials is now
48 frames. Pretty darn sweet if all true. The stand out reductions are N-Air and B-Air as N-Air is a vital landing option and with the landing lag reduction could improve our shield pressure while B-Air was basically Brawl Kirby's entire neutral game and losing it SSB4 doomed our already limited approach. F-Air's reduction is also nice as it now becomes a better short up spacing tool and can link into itself better. Back to N-Air, it now has less FAF in mid air so now it's better off stage.
Unfortunately, startup hasn't been improved for any aerials with Up-Air probably needing it most since Frame 10 is bad for a combo Up-Air. We can only hope they'll address that area in the patches this time. Oh yeah, people also say Up Air can kill now but if so it seems to take a while. D-Air also has a 2% damage buff.
Next we got our smashes. Along with what's been mentioned, Sdn has noted that Up Smash seems to be faster by a couple frames (Frame 12 tbp). Not a massive improvement but still appreciated as Frame 14 on Kirby's Up Smash was just horrendous. Aside from that, the other changes seem covered here already. Down Smash has its old angle back which is great as it'll now put people off stage and kill on 2 frames better while F-Smash MIGHT be laggier but now has Kirby do a lunge for more reach which I think is a great tradeoff. F-Smash was never spammable so being a more likely connect is much better.
For tilts, I am sure most of you know. F-Tilt is the same spacing tool it's always been. D-Tilt seem to have a better trip rate and Up Tilt was WAY more range at the cost of not being as spammable. I do hope sour Up Tilt still confirms into Inhale.
Another thing I am sure you guys aware already is mobility. All around, Kirby's mobility seems to be higher. Air speed doesn't seem too much higher at this time but still likely improved. Vertical movement has seen a buff as mentioned which is good for combos and navigating platforms, and ground seems much better. I think we now run about as fast as Mario which is smack dab in the middle. Utlimately (lol) we'll still need speed values to verify the improvements.
Now onto specials. I thought Final Cutter's projectile got its range improved but further analysis has me thinking it's a placebo. What's not a placebo though is that its rising hitbox has been greatly improved so it's not longer a free spike. Hammer might have more shield break potential now but I honestly didn't read too much into what Ken and the other guys on Discord said about because ever since its change I just feel it's a horrible style move that should never be tossed out in neutral. Hopefully testing a launch yields good results. The real star for specials though is
Inhale. It was already Kirby's best special (being the only
usable one in SSB4. rip) but now it's gotten a MASSIVE buff. Projectiles have always been a thorn in Kirby's side, hence why it's advised to copy opponents with good neutral specials. But now it has more utility beyond that. Now, just like in Kirby's games, he can Inhale most attack projectiles! This includes Ice Climbers Ice shards, Samus Charge shot, and even a transcendant Limit Blade Beam from Cloud as shown here:
https://twitter.com/itzMiKeKirbY/status/1013121178997874689
Small projectiles are eaten automatically for health while big ones can be sucked up, held, and spat out as Stars. This improves us greatly against long range zoning. And don't worry, copying
isn't worthless now as Dedede's Inhale can spit back the actual item instead of a star so we can spit his Gordos back if we copy him.
Next are the throws. These haven't been tested too much but, from what I've read, F-Throw still combos but not in the Gonzo style. Now enemies go up higher allowing you to consistently link in aerials. But no more fast fall Up Air stuff (I could never do it though so I don't mind). Down Throw is just a damage racker and Up Throw still kills although I am hearing it's weaker. If so, I hope it doesn't take them too long to address it.
And the other massive change is, of course, the Dash Attack. This change really can't be overstated though. SSB4 Kirby basically didn't have a Dash Attack and that was quite honestly crippling. Dash attacks are vital for starting combos, zone breaking, punish landings, punishing rolls, and being out of shield options. Our old Dash Attack couldn't do any of that. But , as I requested, they brought back the Melee single hit Dash Attack and made it actually powerful. It has so much utility now. It goes through shields so it's not as punishable. It's much faster and goes further which now gives us a legit burst option and out of shield option. It's single hit so no more people falling out. And best of all, it's STRONG and sends foes at a 50 degree angle. This makes it a great landing punish and option to dig the ledge for poorly spaced recoveries. In desperation situations, we now have a new option to take off a stock in a pinch which its burst and kill power. And thanks to the angle, foes will have a harder time escaping disadvantage. It's easily a Top 3 fix from the demo up there with B-Air's reduced landing lag and the Inhale buff.
All in all, I love a lot of the changes to Ultimate Kirby. Of courses there's more they could have done, and hopefully it will be done, but for now I am glad to see a lot of issues being addressed. I think if we have demo Kirby or better at launch, the patches will actually help us keep up with the meta this time instead of trying to claw us out of a pit of crapitude to make us barely functional.
I think the majority of Kirby's buffs come from the mechanics themselves, which isn't something people will immediately be able to feel out.
For example, dashing into his tilts (with his already solid ground speed) is an excellent option that allows him to approach while fighting on the ground (where he's strongest). Running dtilt in particular will be the bane of characters that can't grab him.
The fact that characters can no longer dodge freely gives him two boosts: first, to his approach. It's harder to simply run around him or jump + airdodge away when you get penalized for it. Second, to his own offstage capabilities... His edgeguarding will stand out since there are fewer options for avoiding him. Additionally, his own recovery is meaningful since everyone else's is worse. As an example, I airdodged offstage in the demo, but was still able to recover with my leftover resources. Most characters simply die now.
Universally shortened dash length is a godsend. I found that Kirby's approaches were limited due to the fact that they were so committal. If Kirby ran at an opponent, he had few options to avoid or otherwise defend himself once they threw out their own attacks. Finer movement will allow Kirby to threaten space without committing, and removes one of his biggest weaknesses in neutral (IMO).
Universal improvements to shorthop & fullhop mean that Kirby can more easily cover space above him. Another huge weakness Kirby had in Smash 4 is that he didn't accelerate to his full hop height quickly enough. As a result, circle camping him - even on flat stages, was incredibly free. Thanks to the speed boost in Ultimate, he can now more easily cut off opponents above him (though sadly, uair appears to be the same speed).
New perfect shield strength... One cool thing Kirby could do is use his small size to make perfect shielding easier. By starting from a crouch & shielding into an incoming attack, Kirby would stand up into the attack and perfect shield it. With shield safety being amazing now, and perfect shield being powerful but riskier, Kirby's stature should still be a huge boon. Since certain characters are forced to resort to landing aerials on him, he has perfect shielding as a strong & more easily accessible defensive tool.
The thing is, most of these improvements won't be apparent right now since the game is still being played exactly like Smash 4. When it starts being played like Smash Ultimate, then I think these things will be important.
On top of everything, it's important to consider how Kirby's poor MUs are effected. Bowser has lost his kill confirm. Sonic can no longer shield cancel spindash, and most moves appear to stop on shield (for now). Cloud has shorter range, can no longer land on characters with uair, and on top of that, can't hold limit. Corrin's pin kick range is reduced. So on.
Then, you consider Kirby himself - both his dash attack and dsmash send at favorable angles for his type of pressure and advantage. Final Cutter appears to have a rising hitbox. His movement is improved overall. He can inhale projectiles to spit them back out & effectively nullify camping/make it more dangerous. So on.
I think when you put all of those factors together, you find... It's far too early to judge how Kirby plays in Smash Ultimate. Considering how the meta shapes up, he could be quite good... or low tier. But the point is that we don't know. Just because other characters have received more obvious changes doesn't mean that Kirby is worse. Everything must be taken in context of *this game*, and not Smash 4.
Great to see you again RK and great rundown. Indeed, a lot of us in the Discord feel that the changes AROUND Kirby might end up helping more than the changes to his own kit, which are far from irrelevant which I might add. Air dodges taking a nosedive in utility is particularly big buff. When recovering became super free in SSB4, Kirby's recovery relatively got significantly worse as he still had a crappy recovery move but his air speed was worsened while other characters could just air dodge and use their moves to get the ledge thanks to having recoveries that snap at the zenith and generally better air speed. Mario of all characters ended up having one of the best recoveries despite it being linear and short on paper. And of course, Kirby's edge guarding took a nosedive too. With N-Air having so much mid air lag and D-Air being Frame 18, Kirby just could edge guard as well as he should have. Often foes could just air dodge past you and get the ledge or a reverse edge guard or just stuff our D-Air out as our reduced air speed made positioning ourselves tougher. Our multiple jumps lost a lot of their luster off stage.
But now it's different. Air dodge, compared to SSB4, SUCKS in Ultimate. Just look at all the folks killing themselves with it during the invitational. The meme of hold lelft/right -> air dodge -> recover is pretty much dead. Now having multiple jumps is a legitimate advantage again. With multiple jumps, our air dodge isn't nearly as high commital and we can more easily cut people off, especially with a N-Air that ends sooner. And with D-Smash and Dash Attack, foes will be going off stage far more often now.
The rage nerf is also a boon. We're light and floaty and don't have absurd kill setups or speed like Fox and Mewtwo so rage hurt us for the most part. Now that penalty has been reduced.
Another big change was footstools now being techable. Our footstool meta onstage was nonexistant so it being teachable now reduces how shortens the gap in our advantage state when compared to other characters. And of course, many rough matchups have been significantly toned down. I am especially happy about Limit running out in 15 seconds, Sonic's spin Dash no longer being shield cancelable, Bayonetta likely getting even MORE nerfs, a lot of swordies seemingly having less range, and Bowser's dumb kill combo being gone.
All in all, Ultimate is already looking much better for Kirby than SSB4 ever did. I can only hope the patches work further to address Kirby's core flaws instead giving constant, pointless knockback buffs on his hammer.
And now that I know this place is already a thing, I intend to report the goodies from Discord here whenever something big comes up as, while it's more chat friendly, searching for info on Discord is a pain the butt.
