Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

[Jrzfine]

Luigi has about the same vertical survivability as Pac-Man. He is on the top of mediumweight on Luigi player's survivability list. He is in no way light, nor his vertical survivability sucks THAT bad. Dying ridiculously early means stuffs like Jigglypuff dying to Luigi's FJP at like 49%. 80%% is early, but not ridiculously early.

Then again. You guys sure about that? Because I have lived to like 120% from Falcon's Raptor Boost, and you guys would never reach full rage if the Luigi player is doing it right (D-throw to RAR B-air or rage back throw (Lol) YEEAAAHHH!!!!). Especially since Luigi can edgeguard Falcon quite easily.

Oh. And thank your falling speed and weight. Because lots of Luigi's KO moves KO off the top >_>. B-air will probbaly be his main killing move here along with back throw. Falcon DOES die later than Ganon vertically after all.

I think the reason people call Luigi lightweight is because of his fall speed. He's terribly floaty, which translates into earlier KOs because he gets carried farther before gravity + his god awful aerial movement speed can overpower the opposing knockback. Getting killed earlier generally makes people assume lightweight, because i guess fallspeed is a less obvious factor in survivability. My apologies for the incorrect terminology.

 

[Gawain]

Luigi has about the same vertical survivability as Pac-Man. He is on the top of mediumweight on Luigi player's survivability list. He is in no way light, nor his vertical survivability sucks THAT bad. Dying ridiculously early means stuffs like Jigglypuff dying to Luigi's FJP at like 49%. 80%% is early, but not ridiculously early.

Then again. You guys sure about that? Because I have lived to like 120% from Falcon's Raptor Boost, and you guys would never reach full rage if the Luigi player is doing it right (D-throw to RAR B-air or rage back throw (Lol) YEEAAAHHH!!!!). Especially since Luigi can edgeguard Falcon quite easily.

Oh. And thank your falling speed and weight. Because lots of Luigi's KO moves KO off the top >_>. B-air will probbaly be his main killing move here along with back throw. Falcon DOES die later than Ganon vertically after all.

Well for me, if raptor boost doesnt kill earlier than 110, its not really a good option imo. Pretty sure Ive killed Luigis earlier than that, But maybe it was rage or bad DI.

 

[Rucent]

Hey guys and gals! Sonic Main here, asking for some assistance at the Sonic MU thread. COME AWHN over, and give us anything that can help us with the Captain Falcon MU.
http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-7-captain-falcon.390575/page-6#post-19356296

 

[Lanzoma]

Hey guys and gals! Sonic Main here, asking for some assistance at the Sonic MU thread. COME AWHN over, and give us anything that can help us with the Captain Falcon MU.
http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-7-captain-falcon.390575/page-6#post-19356296

We discussed the Sonic matchup on page 2 at length, feel free to link those posts over there. If there's anything you disagree with, want to add, or want to discuss further, let me know and I'll hop over there.

 

[Psychoace]

Whoever said luigis nair was frame 1 is incorrect its frame three, no aerial is frame 1 there are only frame 1 jabs. You can di down during hitstun on weegee tornado unless he hits you with center most hitbox iirc. I get out pretty easily most times. Try jabbing fireballs as well it at least stops grab followups. Falcon also has the speed and maneuverability to get away or over them. Platforms are a safe escape too.

 

[Spirst]

Mewtwo boards will be going over Falcon as part of this weeks matchup discussion. In the interest of avoiding biases and getting discussion going from both parties, I'm inviting you all to try and contribute what you can.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[Trifroze]

I think it's about time to wrap the Luigi MU up now, it's been a while. I need to make these shorter cause I think I'm nearing the character limit in the first post by now.

Summary
Luigi is all about grab combos, and they will hurt Falcon badly at low percents usually getting him up to 40-60% in one string. Jab works for interrupting some of these though, and Luigi has a hard time getting in on a character as fast as Falcon even with the aid of his fireballs which Falcon can just powershield. On the other hand, Falcon will juggle Luigi hard since his uair goes through Luigi's nair when properly spaced and Luigi is a very floaty character. Luigi's recovery should get gimped by dair nearly every time if he resorts to side b, and if he goes extremely low with it you can resort to punishing his up b or down b when he has to use those. Luigi can gimp Falcon as well with down b if Falcon has to recover from far away losing his recovery mixup options, otherwise it shouldn't happen much. Luigi also likes to kill vertically which Falcon can survive very well while dying early vertically himself, which now with the uair nerf Falcon unfortunately doesn't have any safe options for so he can't really take advantage of it without hard Raptor Boost or usmash reads. The key to this matchup is taking advantage of Falcon's better neutral and avoiding Luigi's grab. The matchup is considered approximately even.

Pros
+ Better neutral game and speed
+ Easier time offstage
+ Uair beats Luigi's nair and Luigi gets juggled hard

Cons
- Tough disadvantage at low percents
- Falcon loses CQC because of Luigi's frame 2 jab
- Luigi's KO options are more reliable

Stages to pick
Battlefield: Platforms can break Luigi's dthrow setups and the high ceiling makes killing for Luigi harder
Smashville: Has FD ceiling but is horizontally smaller benefitting Falcon's horizontal KO power
Omega (with straight ledges): Walls let Falcon chase Luigi's side b as deep as he wants to since he can walljump back, also FD/Omega in general is good for Falcon

Stages to ban
Halberd: Low ceiling gives Luigi much earlier kills out of his dthrow
Town & City: Same as above to a lesser extent

Let's do Rosalina now since she kinda sits next at the chronological tier order. Going to invite their boards over.

E: Or not since they don't seem to have a general matchup topic that isn't locked.

 

[teluoborg]

I think one very important thing in the Rosa matchup is to not let her have the center of the stage. Once you get the positionning where she has the ledge to her back then dash attack or gentleman her luma for an instant kill. Repeat every 12 seconds for maximum effectiveness.

If you can manage to do that consistently the matchup gets ten times easier BUT good Rosas won't let you do that, by camping the mid or staying in the air. I don't know if one of Falcon's aerials can instakill luma, if anyone knows pls share.

For the rest I'd say :
-abuse SHAC Nairs and Bairs that hit Rosa's tall figure without hitting luma,
-abuse her predictable recovery with Uairs, Dairs and stagespike Bairs,
-don't try to challenge her Uair or Dair, just don't,
-be careful of luma retaliation when you send her flying,
-be VERY cautious while recovering as any of her aerials will gimp/kill you or she can even send luma to do the dirty deed,
-never miss an opportunity to whack luma

Slight advantage for Rosa unless you can consistently kill luma within 3 seconds of its respawn in which case slight advantage for Falcon.

 

[Silvalfo]

Regarding charangcter limits, wouldn't documenting MU discussions in a Google Drive folder be really useful?

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding charangcter limits, wouldn't documenting MU discussions in a Google Drive folder be really useful?

Yeah, I presume I'll hit it eventually so Google might be a good option.

Regarding Rosalina she's really easy to kill at early percents, uair to knee setups are easy to execute on her when she loses Luma and there's a dthrow to knee setup that works on her until about 50% no matter what she does and for approximately 20% longer as an airdodge 50:50. Rapid jab finisher sends Luma almost completely across the stage, doesn't really matter if you get punished for it as long as you get rid of Luma. If Rosalina has Luma you should mainly use buffered SH bair, uair and nair and not be afraid to grab Rosalina as a punish as long as you immediately buffer a throw to activate throw armor in case Luma tries to hit you.

Falcon is easier to gimp for Rosa than Rosa is for Falcon, but ideally you should be able to meteor her recovery very often, and your dair will kill Rosa earlier than hers will kill you. Uairs juggle Rosa really hard, as hers juggle Falcon although not as badly. She shouldn't touch the stage very often when Luma is gone unless she's running away from you which should always end up in her being dash grabbed or uaired depending on how she's trying to do that.

Like said this matchup strongly revolves around how well you can keep Luma gone, sometimes it feels tough and sometimes easy. With the tools and setups Falcon has against Rosa though I might consider this a slightly advantageous matchup, you just have to play really safe and not get thrown offstage.

 

[Gawain]

Oh boy this matchup. Probably my least favorite in the entire game. I think as a general rule for this matchup that Falcon needs to play even more patiently and cautiously than he normally does. I find that I get the best results by staying just outside Rosalina's forward reach and waiting for a chance to move in for a dash attack or jabs to finish off Luma. I think what @ Trifroze says about getting rid of Luma being top priority can't be emphasized enough. It can be very difficult for Captain to land his kill setups when Luma is out because the Luma tends to disrupt a lot of stuff like grabs just by being there.

Sticking to safe moves and not pushing buttons without purpose I think are critical to winning in the neutral in this matchup.

 

[Zonderion]

Rosalina main here (picking up The Falcon as a secondary). I tend to like this matchup as Rosalina. I find that most falcons are impatient and rush into a lot of attacks that wouldn't happen if they play patiently.

Be weary of jabs, Rosalina and Luma can cover just about any ground approach with jabs. They can also cover a lot of space, frame trapping you if you try and roll into her.

Your main objective is getting rid of Luma. Easier said then done, but Falcon can do it fairly easily. In most cases you'll get punished for attacking Luma, but if you can separate them, take Luma out with a quick dash attack or Falcon kick, or even a gentleman. Once gone, you can do your best to combo Rosalina, but most Rosalinas will stall. Also, it doesn't help that Luma got a health buff in the latest patch.

I know Falcon benefits from platforms, but I believe Rosalina gets a better advantage from them. For the most part Falcon's recovery is very predictable. Which means Rosalina should be going for the gimp. There is nothing scarier than a Falcon with Rage, especially for Rosalina.

This may be my inexperience talking, but as Falcon, I don't try and gimp Rosalina. The risk usually isn't worth the reward when the tables can easily be turned. She can be killed easily enough from the stage with a good read.

Overall, this match up is even, maybe slightly in Rosalinas favor if she knows how to protect and keep Luma around.

 

[TriTails]

CAMAWHN!

Us Luigi boards are currently discussing Falcon!

Jump on your Blue Falcons and hop in to our thread if you guys have something to share!

 

[MV-Skipper]

What does RAR mean?

 

[Zonderion]

What does RAR mean?

Reverse arial rush. Basically you dash towards your opponent, change directions then jump at almost the same time. Your momentum will carry you with your back towards the opponent.

This is especially good if your character, like Falcon, has a really strong back air.

 

[MV-Skipper]

Reverse arial rush. Basically you dash towards your opponent, change directions then jump at almost the same time. Your momentum will carry you with your back towards the opponent.

This is especially good if your character, like Falcon, has a really strong back air.

Okay thanks man, I already used it a lot but i didn't know that it had a name

 

[HFlash]

Oh boy this matchup. Probably my least favorite in the entire game. I think as a general rule for this matchup that Falcon needs to play even more patiently and cautiously than he normally does. I find that I get the best results by staying just outside Rosalina's forward reach and waiting for a chance to move in for a dash attack or jabs to finish off Luma. I think what @ Trifroze says about getting rid of Luma being top priority can't be emphasized enough. It can be very difficult for Captain to land his kill setups when Luma is out because the Luma tends to disrupt a lot of stuff like grabs just by being there.

Sticking to safe moves and not pushing buttons without purpose I think are critical to winning in the neutral in this matchup.

Have you ever played against Pikachu? Rosalina imo is definitely not Falcon's worst MU. Having a big, light body to kill/combo early is a huge plus for Falcon. As long as you don't get gimped, and use safe spaced moves, I don't really see how Falcon loses this MU. Punch the star out, and soon Rosalina will be seeing stars.

 

[Gawain]

Have you ever played against Pikachu? Rosalina imo is definitely not Falcon's worst MU. Having a big, light body to kill/combo early is a huge plus for Falcon. As long as you don't get gimped, and use safe spaced moves, I don't really see how Falcon loses this MU. Punch the star out, and soon Rosalina will be seeing stars.

Don't misunderstand. I said it's my least favorite, not the worst. Pikachu and Kirby are far worse in terms of your likelihood of winning, but i prefer those on a personal level.

I don't really think Falcon loses this, at the absolute worst I'd put it 45:55. I do think that you need to play differently than you do vs other charactes though. A lot of the basics just don't work as well.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Captain Falcons out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Captain Falcon. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Captain Falcon match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/409975/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[teluoborg]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy dude there's a discussion going on right here, and you guys have been invited. Is it really worth it to create another thread to discuss it again ?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@ Mario & Sonic Guy dude there's a discussion going on right here, and you guys have been invited. Is it really worth it to create another thread to discuss it again ?

This thread is for Captain Falcon's perspective, while the one at Rosalina's sub-forum is for Rosalina's perspective. Also, the thread at Rosalina's sub-forum is not under any time limit, which seems to be the case with this thread.

The last note is that we're also covering the usage of custom specials. Bad timing perhaps, but we're simply covering more characters per week than at most other character sub-forums.

 

[teluoborg]

So you want Falcon mains to come over your thread and talk about the matchups from the Rosalina perspective ? Ok lol.

 

[Zonderion]

So you want Falcon mains to come over your thread and talk about the matchups from the Rosalina perspective ? Ok lol.

Here's the difference between the threads. On the Falcon boards, we talk about the weaknesses of Rosalina and how to exploit them using Falcon's strengths.

On the Rosalina boards, it would help if we discussed the weaknesses of Falcon, especially in light of Rosalina's strengths.

Does that make sense?

Besides, many Rosalinas that are looking for tips against Falcon aren't going to be looking on the Falcon boards. They will be looking on the Rosalina boards, and vice versa.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, Falcon mains! The Kirby Boards are right now discussing your main Captain Falcon. It'd mean a lot if you could put some input on the matchup from your eyes on the MU thread here! Thank you for showing us your moves, guys!

 

[teluoborg]

Here's the difference between the threads. On the Falcon boards, we talk about the weaknesses of Rosalina and how to exploit them using Falcon's strengths.

On the Rosalina boards, it would help if we discussed the weaknesses of Falcon, especially in light of Rosalina's strengths.

Does that make sense?

That makes sense but only because you don't know how to properly dicsuss matchups. You should discuss weaknesses and strenghts of both characters at the same time (which is what we are doing here). It's better to have one complete discussion rather than 2 halves.

 

[Zonderion]

That makes sense but only because you don't know how to properly dicsuss matchups. You should discuss weaknesses and strenghts of both characters at the same time (which is what we are doing here). It's better to have one complete discussion rather than 2 halves.

I completely agree. However your "complete" discussion will be biased unless there are opinions from both sides. If only Falcon mains discuss the match up from their experience and no Rosalinas offer their input, then you've truly failed at finding that complete discussion.

It's the same for Rosalinas. We need your input on the match so we, too, can have a complete discussion.

Why should the Falcon boards be the only ones with a complete discussion? Hence why they asked for your input on their boards.

 

[teluoborg]

I completely agree. However your "complete" discussion will be biased unless there are opinions from both sides. If only Falcon mains discuss the match up from their experience and no Rosalinas offer their input, then you've truly failed at finding that complete discussion.

It's the same for Rosalinas. We need your input on the match so we, too, can have a complete discussion.

Why should the Falcon boards be the only ones with a complete discussion? Hence why they asked for your input on their boards.

1-It's not biased if you consider both characters' point of view. A matchup discussion is not about tips and tricks to play the matchup better, it's about lying down the different options that both characters have and seeing how they interact with each other's. If done well then the informations that come out of the discussion apply to both characters.
2-If you want a discussion with both parties then why not come over here where the discussion has already started, where Rosalina players have been invited to contribute (but you're the only one to have shown up) and then copy the summary to your boards once the discussion is done ?

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The Falcon/Rosalina MU is highly relevant to my interests. I'm looking to pick up Falcon as a secondary to supplement some of Ganon's horrendous match-ups, the biggest offender being Rosalina. I find that I am a pretty adequate Falcon despite having zero practice with him, just because I'm a Ganon main and play a patient bait & punish game. But I'd like to dig in a little deeper to where I feel comfortable with counterpicks.

Unfortunately, Falcon's other bad MUs are largely the same as Ganon's. Either way, if this one pans out as more or less even, that's a big deal to me.

 

[Zonderion]

1-It's not biased if you consider both characters' point of view. A matchup discussion is not about tips and tricks to play the matchup better, it's about lying down the different options that both characters have and seeing how they interact with each other's. If done well then the informations that come out of the discussion apply to both characters.
2-If you want a discussion with both parties then why not come over here where the discussion has already started, where Rosalina players have been invited to contribute (but you're the only one to have shown up) and then copy the summary to your boards once the discussion is done ?

1. It can still be biased if you don't know the ins and outs of the opposing character. If you don't play as Rosalina a lot, then how can you know all/most of the options? As a Falcon player, how would you handle Rosalina's option of a Cancelled Reverse Aerial Rush Grab? (Without researching it. If you already know that AT, then kudos.)

While the main objective is about laying out all of the options each character has against the other character, it still serves as a Tips and Tricks to play the MU better. Isn't that the purpose, to increase the knowledge of the MU to play it better?

2. Your point is extremely valid, and a great suggestion. I will do that, if you gus still dont feel the need to post there. The only thing I would say, is that by posting with the aspect of helping Rosalinas, it might spur different discussions and lead to different strats.

 

[HuntarBarbarian]

So now that it's decided that we are having the discussion here, where would be the best place to start? Personally, I think play surrounding Luma is really important to this MU. I agree that getting rid of it (?) is first priority, but what arr some good options if that's not happening?

 

[Zonderion]

So now that it's decided that we are having the discussion here, where would be the best place to start? Personally, I think play surrounding Luma is really important to this MU. I agree that getting rid of it (?) is first priority, but what arr some good options if that's not happening?

Discussion here, works for me. If you are playing against a RL that knows how to keep Luma, this will be a very difficult match up.

Your throw combos will be interrupted, your ground approach game will be more limited and forget trying to approach in the air.

Your grab game is still important, but you have to be careful when following up because Luma will hit you if you try for certain combos.

Stay in RL's face. Do not give her room to breathe. By her nature, she is a zoner and wants you out of her space. Pressure, pressure, pressure.

Hits that are safe on shield are really good for this MU. This is because they can still hit Luma w/o being punished.

Even still, your first objective should be getting rid of Luma.

 

[Silvalfo]

So... should we move on? Rosalina discussion has been going on for over one month, with almost one week if inactivity as of right now.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah it's definitely gone on for too long, I'll try to make a write-up tomorrow.

 

[Fandangox]

Maybe Samus or Kirby next?

 

[Aidalator64]

I reckon , or should be next

 

[Levateinn]

i agree, either or .

 

[Honor]

Please do ZZS

I'm really struggling with the Capt. Falcon MU and would love any input you guys could give me!

 

[Trifroze]

Summary:
Falcon vs Rosalina matchup completely revolves around how well you can get red of Luma, and Falcon can do this very well. Rapid Jab finisher sends Luma across the stage and DA works for shorter distances, and it doesn't really matter if you get punished for it as long as you get rid of Luma. When Luma is around though, Rosalina can wall Falcon out quite well. The real downfall here is how well Rosalina can edgeguard and gimp Falcon, although you can meteor or punish her recovery pretty easily as well. Falcon's killing setups are easy and deadly on Rosalina once Luma is gone, in fact you should be killing her at 50-80% more often than anywhere else, but usually you first have to get rid of Luma and then chase her down. It's hard to call this matchup anything but even.

Pros:
- Getting rid of Luma is relatively easy
- Kill setups work well vs Rosalina, and because of that you don't need to deal that much % per stock
- Rosalina has a lot of trouble vs Falcon's juggles

Cons:
- Falcon gets gimped pretty hard here
- Playing neutral around Luma can be difficult
- Rosalina also juggles Falcon easily when given the chance

Stages to ban:
FD/Omega: Rosalina can get too much stage control without platforms around
Halberd: Just because of Rosalina's uair and usmash

Stages to pick:
Battlefield: Platforms help Falcon around Rosalina's neutral
Smashville: Same as above
Delfino: Falcon moves around this stage better than Rosalina and suffers less for being forced to move

Alright, ZSS next.

 

[HuntarBarbarian]

Okay. I play a little bit against ZSS and this is what I have found:
•Neutral is a little tough because of stun, which makes grabs a bit harder to pull off.
•Falcon is gimped pretty easily by her down b because of his relatively predictable recovery.
•This mu revolves mainly around your ability to bait out punishable move.
•ZSS has a hard time getting out of combos once they're started (could just be our skill level).
•Platforms are a must in this mu. It's just too hard to approach otherwise.

 

[Silvalfo]

You have to be very careful when comboing ZSS, as a slight mispacing or mistiming from you gets you punished with uairs -> upB and similar stuff, an example being you whiffing an uair as she airdodges and fastfalls then retaliates with an uair. Falcon's fast falling allows ZSS to uair him for days but at least we have a much greater chance to survive those upBs near the ceiling than other characters. DI is even more important here than usual.

Her bair, nair and zair make it pretty difficult for Falcon to try aerial approaches or pokes. Horizontally they wreck Falcon's moveset.

Her main source of kill setups is her grab, and it can be reacted to. Don't dash aimlessly (dance trotting kinda forces it) or else you might get grabbed during the initial dash's vulnerable frames. Same goes for stun gun.