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Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

Levateinn

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While ZSS can combos like crazy, I find she has to commit in neutral to get things going(her "half serious" pokes usually dont lead into much without a stun involved).
Due to the nature of her tether for zoning I find it a little easier to do Perfect Pivot Shields rather than Dance Trot to get in, and as mentioned in the event you get grabbed, it is pretty easy to react and DI out each time.

I'll edit if i think of anything cryptic to add.
 

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ZSS outranges Falcon with her z-air and n-air which neuters his linear approach. Falcon's weight, size and falling speed makes him combo food for ZSS, which leads me to believe that Falcon is at his most susceptible at mid percentages. Z-air and SHFF n-air are both hit confirm grabs at the mid percentage range, which means that Falcon can easily lose a stock through d-throw to u-air x2 to up-b. Falcon also suffers from recovering against ZSS as she can easily gimp him with a down-b or side-b.

What Falcon has going for him is his ground mobility and punish game. Whiffed grabs or f-smashes from ZSS can lead to her taking a nasty elbow to the face, potentially ending the stock early especially with rage. Reliance on down-b and stun can lead into a punish opportunity for Falcon as well.

Edit: Toning down on the hyperbole.
 
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HFlash

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Like @ Levateinn Levateinn said, ZSS has to commit to make combo food out of falcon, so honestly, as long as the Falcon player isn't linear, and throws out safe options, using alot of SH to bait out grabs and punishes, I don't see how ZSS wins. She can't really take advantage of Falcon's lack of projectiles because well, she can't zone out with just her paralyzer, plus, she can't really destroy us off stage. Bait out grabs, and punish hard. Falcon's weight also gives him more lee way to make more mistakes and still win the MU. I'd put the MU roughly 6:4 Falcon's favor, maybe more, maybe less, but ultimately, I think Falcon actually wins this one.
 

David Viran

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Ok I'm just going to say that most of zss's good pokes do combo. Why do people say they don't? Nair combos into like everything. Dsmash is dsmash. zair true combos into grab. Bair actually can combo into grab. Ftilt can create tech chases at mid percents.
 

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Like @ Levateinn Levateinn said, ZSS has to commit to make combo food out of falcon, so honestly, as long as the Falcon player isn't linear, and throws out safe options, using alot of SH to bait out grabs and punishes, I don't see how ZSS wins. She can't really take advantage of Falcon's lack of projectiles because well, she can't zone out with just her paralyzer, plus, she can't really destroy us off stage. Bait out grabs, and punish hard. Falcon's weight also gives him more lee way to make more mistakes and still win the MU. I'd put the MU roughly 6:4 Falcon's favor, maybe more, maybe less, but ultimately, I think Falcon actually wins this one.
Side-b is a move that ZSS has that can gimp Falcon while he's recovering. I think that the optimal position for Falcon to be is on the ground, as that's where he can capitalise the most on ZSS' mistakes.
 
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HFlash

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Side-b is a move that ZSS has that can gimp Falcon while he's recovering. I think that the optimal position for Falcon to be is on the ground, as that's where he can capitalise the most on ZSS' mistakes.
Eh, not if Falcon is recovering low, which only a good, long lasting dair with a spike hit box would do i.e kirby
 

Silvalfo

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Her powerful conversions, much easier time gimping and general longer reach make this MU disadvantageous for Falcon. Not by too much, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
 

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Her powerful conversions, much easier time gimping and general longer reach make this MU disadvantageous for Falcon. Not by too much, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
I agree. I'm inclined to say that it's 55:45 to ZSS, or 50:50. Despite Falcon committing to get through ZSS' range and pokes, he can still apply tremendous pressure, mainly from his grabs. However, as @ David Viran David Viran said, Falcon has somewhat of a disadvantage in neutral due to ZSS having the ability to follow up from a multitude of her moves, such as z-air and n-air.
 

HFlash

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Her powerful conversions, much easier time gimping and general longer reach make this MU disadvantageous for Falcon. Not by too much, but a disadvantage nonetheless.
How would a ZSS edge guard effectively from a Falcon recovering low? Maybe I just haven't fought a good enough ZSS but it hasn't happened to me.
 

HFlash

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Her down-b, for starters.
If recovering level with the stage, or high, for sure, but if falcon recovers low, the end lag from the kick would be too long to let ZSS recover back on stage i.e she can't use that move to go "deep" and edge guard from above. If falcon is sent at an angle where he can't recover from below, then yea he is screwed most likely.
 

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If recovering level with the stage, or high, for sure,.
If Falcon were to be recovering level with the stage, then ZSS would opt to gimp with her side-b.

And I mean a raw down-b (don't know the technical term) without the kick. That can still spike Falcon, enough to gimp his recovery. ZSS doesn't even need to go down deep with her down-b, it would be used to intercept Falcon rising to the ledge.
 

Silvalfo

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@ HFlash HFlash

If Falcon opts to recover low, directly below the ledge, she can try a stage spike with bair. Then, if Falcon techs the bair, she can double jump uair. In the occasion Falcon fails to tech, he is rekt anyway.

In case Falcon recovers low, but diagonally below the ledge, ZSS's nair, bair, fair and sideB all cut his recovery short, which is made even easier by the extended hurtbox in Falcon's hand during Falcon Dive's first rising frames. Hell, I was even able to gimp Falcon with sweetspot knee with certain degree of consistency due to that hurtbox.
 

SETHsational

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It seems ZSS's flow chart going in for Falcon generally revolves around nairing and stunning to create safe space away from his shield, with the occasionall nair or zair approach. An interesting tidbit i've found comes in handy is that with characters like zss and sheik, who hae to be falling to make their frontward aerial approach optimal, is that if you predict when they are going to shorthop nair, you can approach with a forward moving nair up from the ground. nair will actually come out faster then ZSS's nair or sheiks fair because you're doing it immediately, while they have to wait a certain amount of time before they can use the move to cover their fast fell landing. As easy and standard as it seems, it's really hard to do a forward moving nair, at least for me. My very hard pushing instinct tells me to nair right where she would be if she shorthopped straight up and landed right where she started, but most all good ZSS's will move backwards in the air when they see you approach. Pay attention and make sure you move forward as much as you can when you nair at her. It's a precise finger movement and a little bit harder of a commitment, but ZSS's will usually be hesitant to grab, and if you can react fast enough to landing behind her you can tilt back towards her to cover any kind of punish, and hold the old reliable jab afterwards. approaching with a short hop RAR can work as well but it is harder to pull off and takes more precise timing. Up air can work in the same effect but has less range then nair, has less follow ups at low percents, and is extremely hard to get to come out that low. Dash attack can also beat it out if spaced and timed relatively correct, but is a guessing game to follow up and usually lets her create space away from you.

Grabbing ZSS is hard for falcon. ZSS doesn't have enough landing lag on her nair to punish, and when she isn't doing that she is usually jumping away. The better the ZSS is as a player, the less likely they will be shielding when we want them to. The best ZSS's will almost never stand still no matter how much you bait them (barring whiffed grabs and the such), raw grabs are a bad idea. Grabs are best to go for out of back airs. If she is pressuring the back of your shield. catch her shorthop with a bair out of shield and immediately go for a grab, though sometimes not completely guaranteed, bair is the best setup you will get.

Comboing ZSS seems to be a little less stressful than most characters for falcon. She's got one of the easiest weights to down throw->knee at kill percents, and she doesn't have many low frame moves to break out of combos, which make her easier to downthrow->up air->knee, and bait airdodges, which is pretty nightmarish for a character with her recovery. If you havent seen Max Ketchum vs Nairo's zss, you need to.

Whenever ZSS is above you she can use a variety of tools to get back to the ground. Her Down b Has invincibility frames, and i'm not sure but it might have a pretty quick start up/ ability to get out of being comboed. She will almost always b reverse away from your approach and release the stun right before hitting the ground to cover her landing. you have to be very patient and reactive to punish her. follow her in the air, bait her to down b and punish it. bait her to b reverse and quickly change directions and be ready to punish that.

Powershielding the stun is key if sheilding it at all. Most lower level ZSS's/ZSS's with little matchup experiece will try to gra you after stun hits your shield every time, which is easy to dodge and even easier to punish. Good ZSS's will stun your shield a couple times and try to read or react to what you do. They have to run it into a rock paper scissors game or just not approach afterwards at all if they're that lame. Either way falcons best tools to deal with the stun is to powershield it and if she's close: tilt, nair, or bair out of shield. i find tilting out of shield to catch her approaches and short hops will really catch the player off guard the first couple times and can be a good setup for grab if they aren't prepared. If she's far away: full hop toward and react, run toward and react, or make a hard read and go in.

Beware ZSS tilt out of shield and her pivot tilts... just her ftilt in general. More and more ZSS's are using it lately and it seems the better they get, the better they use ftilt. it's not really punishable if it misses unless it barely misses and you dash attack or something. the only real punishes i can think of is shielding it and dash attacking/tilting out of sheild yourself, but i haven't dealt with it in a while and can't really remember all it's properties very well.

When it come's to gimping Falcon, ZSS honestly really doesn't have any reliable tools besides her zair trump bair, which is insanely deadly. her down b has to be super precise and started almost before your up b. if you mix up when you're going to up b and recover low mostly, then you should be fine. i've never seen the side b be used o edge guard so i dunno about that. Most ZSS's i've played will almost always try to time a zair trump bair, or stand on the ledge and try to react/read with a down smash. not much off stage trouble.

Gimping ZSS is usually pretty hard, but there's not much harm in trying. you have to read whether or not she will try to down b on th the stage, which can be punished with like anything, but usually ends up with her being back on stage. if she doesn't down b then she'll almost definitely tether. If you have really good timing you can stage spike or even fall off immediate dair her tether. Almost no ZSS's will up b back to the ledge unless they have to, but if they have to, be ready to dair the juicy foot hitbox that comes so far above the ledge before she grabs it. You have to space it so your dair hits without you being hit though which can be a challenge. falcons dair exteds his hurtbox downwards, but not as far down as the dair hitbox, and ZSS's upper foot on her up is a hitbox AND a hurtbox all the way up. So you have to try to make the disjointed hitbox hit that, same thing with little Mac's up b.
 

David Viran

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Zss's down b is a combo breaker as it's frame 3 intangibility. She should be using this instead of AD alot. Nairo made this mistake against max and that was a long time ago. Nairo's zss was like two weeks old.
 
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SETHsational

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Zss's down b is a combo breaker as it's frame 3 intangibility. She should be using this instead of AD alot. Nairo made this mistake against max and that was a long time ago. Nairo's zss was like two weeks old.
I was afraid of that. I't's still punishable though. puts her in a bad position above you.
 

TheSausXL

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What I like to do is when the paralyzer comes out, shield it and wait for the grab follow up. When she goes in for it, spot dodge and start your combos. I've also seen them try to down b on stage while recovering to a quick jab at the ledge will make them fall and possibly lead to an up tilt or back air. Also, reading air dodges is especially crucial here because you want to limit the time ZSS spends on a stock because once rage kicks in that up b will be a big threat.
 

Boomuki

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Attacking zss's shield is always a big risk, because uptilt oos comes out on like frame 2 and puts falcon in a bad spot for possible uair strings. So the only think i would hit her shield with would be properly spaced sh bairs.
 

Sammy-jack

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Me and my bro like to play some characters at random, and we recently played Falcon vs Zs. One thing I can be sure of: you cant charge her very easy at all. Dash attack into shield leads into grab/ Utilt+Uair. If I went into grab too often, he would spot dodge into Uair instead. Only way I could handle his playstyle was by making him come to me, and then open with a dash punish or short hop Uair.
We did like 5 matches before I got tired of losing, but I got a lot of juggle on her; as is Falcon's way.

And again: This is me analyzing his playstyle, him not being a ZSS main.
 

NT 3000

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This read will be all over the place only because I'm thinking of everything coming to mind. Sorry in advanced. After tons of sets with a really good zss the MU imo is slightly in her favor 55-45 Id say. Zss has a much easier time controlling space and the flow of the match. Paralyzer, sh nairs, zair, bair all moves when spaced properly make it extremely difficult for falcon to get in. We really need to mix up our approaches and time them correctly. spaced bairs are going to be something used a lot in this MU. Now if a bair isn't spaced properly zss can tether grab every time and follow up. First hit nair can lead to jab or grab follow ups. A note though if doing jab, zss can jab us out of first hit nair>jab1 if we try to follow up with a grab. Only on reaction though. If you notice the zss is reacting every time, mix it up by finishing the jab combo or do sh nair>grab. Do not jab un charged paralyzer as it doesn't stun you, but has a ton of ending lag on the clank animation in which zss can get a free grab.

Moving on to recovery...as we all know we don't have the best recovery and it is free as f*** lol. Zss can do a lot to make our way back to the stage a nightmare. Just mix up recovering high and low. If recovering low she will try to down smash which can lead to a stage spike, down B, bair, or fair. When recovering high be weary of uair strings, paralyzer, and down smash.
When zss is recovering I personally don't recommend challenging her off stage. Now everyone plays different and some will say otherwise but you need to remember down B for her is invincible on the way up. Zss has the normal ledge options of getting back on stage and down B. You need to be reactive to your opponent and try to find a pattern. If zss recovers low with tether and you notice they roll on stage a lot, you can run off stage to condition them to roll on, jump back on stage and fsmash the roll option. If zss does normal get up we can jab, space sh bair, or dash grab. If zss down Bs to try and get on stage you can punish the way down with a uair. Zss get up attack is pretty quick so if trying to punish with a bair you have to react to it. If you aren't quick enough she can shield grab. If you are too early you will get hit by it.

When it comes to stages I don't really like to talk about them only because people have personal preferences....but for the love of falcon do not bring her to halberd!!! I personally like smashville for this MU because the platform can help us a lot when recovering or being offensive. Now a lot of people say BF is a good stage against her but imo I feel as our approach is hindered even more because of the lower platforms.

OMG I FORGOT ABOUT UTILT OOS FOR ZSS!!! FEAR THE UTILT BOYS!!!

I have so much more to talk about but need a break from typing will edit this some more later..Sorry to all the grammar nazis out there too!!
 
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ntarps

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Yes... it is in ZSS favor, anyone who says otherwise has never played a good zss. I happen to have a top 3 zss in the country (marss) and can say it is definitely 55-45 in zss favor. The fact that zss can literally just run away and sh bair under a platform without being punished is enough. getting a grab with both characters is so rewarding and falcons bair can usually wreck a more obvious down b for when zss wants to recover higher. this is coming from the best falcon in new england by the way
 

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Attacking zss's shield is always a big risk, because uptilt oos comes out on like frame 2 and puts falcon in a bad spot for possible uair strings. So the only think i would hit her shield with would be properly spaced sh bairs.
I'm pretty sure that u-tilt comes out on frame 3. But yeah, ZSS' OoS options are crazy at the high percentages, Falcon really can't afford to hit ZSS' shield, as up-b OoS is such a massive threat.
 
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apparently fuz

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Because zero said it so on twitter so people band wagon...
I respect ZeRo, but I just can't take him seriously when he says stuff like 'ZSS does fine against Pikachu'. Pikachu is one of our worst MUs...
Yes... it is in ZSS favor, anyone who says otherwise has never played a good zss. I happen to have a top 3 zss in the country (marss) and can say it is definitely 55-45 in zss favor. The fact that zss can literally just run away and sh bair under a platform without being punished is enough. getting a grab with both characters is so rewarding and falcons bair can usually wreck a more obvious down b for when zss wants to recover higher. this is coming from the best falcon in new england by the way
Not sure about b-air, especially since it has been nerfed this patch.
 

J-Flair

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Because zero said it so on twitter so people band wagon...
i still think she is like falcon but with stun tricks, projectile and a bad grab. so high tier maby top tier. and btw falcon needs to do the best punish out of ZSS' grab
 

NT 3000

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I'm pretty sure that u-tilt comes out on frame 3. But yeah, ZSS' OoS options are crazy so at the high percentages, Falcon really can't afford to hit ZSS' shield, as up-b OoS is such a massive threat.
even spaced bairs from falcon can be punished by these.
 

Honor

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Is dthrow to UpB a true combo in this MU for ZZS? I hit it most of the time when Falcon is below around 130 or so, but when I miss I'm not sure if I've messed it up or his DI was good.
 

Levateinn

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Considering how slow her grab (and throw animation) is if you dont DI that on reaction there's a problem.
 

NT 3000

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Is dthrow to UpB a true combo in this MU for ZZS? I hit it most of the time when Falcon is below around 130 or so, but when I miss I'm not sure if I've messed it up or his DI was good.
It's just wifi. I Know dwn throw uair twice to up B is guaranteed any %
 

Trifroze

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Sorry for the slow pace, although we're still doing better than the majority of the boards I'd say. I'm gonna make a conclusion and add my own thoughts in there somewhere. I think 45:55 / 40:60 or so describes this matchup pretty well, like said ZSS is similar to Falcon but with a good recovery, projectile and a slow punishable grab.

Summary:
Both characters have a very strong punish game and good mobility, but in comparison to Falcon ZSS' has a better recovery and an easier time getting out of disadvantage with her flip jump. She has kill confirms out of grab, nair, down smash and paralyzer so watch out for being hit by any of those at around 40-80%, although down smash near the ledge is always dangerous and her grab will guarantee an uair at virtually any percent. ZSS' only weakness in this matchup is her slow grab which you must abuse and punish in the neutral, while trying to anticipate and powershield her falling shorthop aerials. Paralyzer can be punished if powershielded very close to her, so stay in mid range but watch out for her dash grab as well. Offstage she can drop off and backwards flip kick meteor Falcon's recovery if you have to recover low or from far away, so try to mix it up as much as you can. Her occasional high flip jump recovery should be punished by back air. Abuse shield in this matchup while outgrabbing her and you should do well enough. Slight disadvantage for Falcon.

Pros:

- Falcon outlives ZSS unless he gets grabbed at a bad time or gimped
- Falcon can punish ZSS' missed grabs among other things harder than most characters
- Playing midrange is a bit easier because her grab is slow

Cons:
- Getting in can be difficult for Falcon
- Offstage is very dangerous for Falcon whereas ZSS usually gets back for free
- ZSS is one of few characters that can match or outdo Falcon's mobility and kill potential

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: This is a must as ZSS can kill with dthrow -> uair -> uair -> up b before the last hit of up b even comes out.
- Delfino: Similar to above but only during transformations, however to a much more ridiculous extent.
- Town & City: Low ceiling as well, just low enough that ZSS' up b combo will kill at low percents if done optimally.

Stages to pick:
- Lylat: ZSS generally hates the tilting with her aerials and paralyzer, also is big enough to prevent her up b cheese.
- FD/Omega: Has a lot of space and prevents ZSS from getting early kills off the top.
- Battlefield: Her up b combos won't kill off the top here ever if you have proper DI and don't get grabbed on a platform.

Fox next, and soon we'll be done with all the top tiers. Looking back at Rosalina though I think she might be +1 for us, but I suppose we'll look back at the matchups later. Anyway 20XX coming.
 
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DavemanCozy

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I agree with Falcon beating Rosalina.

Fox vs Falcon is quite even, there are tons and tons of Falcon players here that have given me experience in the mu and the better player always wins. I can see a slight advantage for either one side (i.e., 55:45 for Fox or Falcon)

We both get gimped easily by each other, Fox has d-smash which will hit Falcon before he grabs the ledge with Falcon Dive + a shine now (risky and punishable, but it does work to gimp Falcon), Falcon has stomps and the better air mobility offstage to take advantage of Fox's linear path of recovery. Fox has the faster neutral game though, he has one of the fastest ending fox-trots to let him pull his shield up quickly or go into another move. Falcon does have the meatier hitboxes and better range though. Both characters are capable of combo'ing and juggling the other, Fox will get KO'd earlier by Falcon's power whereas Falcon can potentially get KO'd at 35% due to how abusable his recovery is. Probably one of the most explosive matchups in the game, the first part of the match playing the neutral is what matters most. Both characters can make each other pay for just making one mistake, and as such it can get very volatile for both sides.

I should warn other Falcons here that, even though we lost our jab lock, our rapid kicks now come out on frame 3, meaning you can't hit Fox after jab -> jab with your own jab anymore, Falcon gets trapped in them now. You want to SDI up and away from Fox to avoid/shield the last kick and be able to punish him and make him pay for it. The same goes for Fox against your rapid jabs at low percents though.
 
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Gawain

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Oh boy, Fox vs Falcon. I'm not going to lie, I'm super biased about this matchup, I think it's super fun and it's probably one of my favorites in the game. Fox and Falcon kind of have this similar mindset going into the matchup that they like to play around just outside the opponents "zone" and they capitalize off mistakes from this. I feel like Fox definitely does way better at this at very low percents. From a simple low percent punish, Fox can easily rack up a ton of damage. Falcon doesn't do quite as much from low percents, BUT once the percents get above 30ish, Falcon starts to do way more damage off simple punishes. Falcons grab game is highly threatening as always, and Falcon's low percent kill setups work well on Fox thanks to his fast falling speed and that he gets blastzoned pretty early. That said, I think Fox probably wins the ground game for sure, he has better pokes and (I think) has more overall tools to beat shields with than Falcon does.

I'm pretty sure Falcon can stay pretty safe with spaced out falling up airs too, meaning that going for his setups is pretty safe in the matchup. Falcon survives Fox's upsmash pretty well too, so a lot of the kill setups that can hit Falcon pretty reliably like the nair into upsmash stuff can be survived for a good while. I'm pretty sure Falcon's fall speed makes him considerably more vulnerable to setups into Fox's up air though. I feel like this and his back air are probably the big kill moves to watch out for in this matchup.

If I had to rate the matchup, I think it's a good 50/50. I mean, I'm biased towards it like I said, and I haven't played it as much as other matchups, but I don't think either one really wins it over the other.
 
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