Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

[[FBC] ESAM]

If a Pikachu is trying to edgeguard you from not directly above you they are doing it wrong.

 

[Antonykun]

hey falcon mains and lovers, the Mii Swordfighter boards are currently discussing Captain Falcon so if anyone wants to com in and fact check what people said there i would truly appreciate it.
http://smashboards.com/threads/swor...alcon-and-pikachu.380027/page-2#post-19214095

 

[teluoborg]

I agree that dtilt, bair and dash attack work better than jab and grab variants in this matchup, but doesn't up b have an even higher grab range than Falcon's regular grab? It doesn't even grab Pikachu's crouch, although Ganondorf's up b does for some reason. Regardless, fair and bair seem to be the only attacks from Pikachu where he can completely avoid Falcon's grab before his IASA frames so grab is still an extremely valuable tool in this matchup, you just need to know when to use it. Like I mentioned Pikachu along with Rosalina is one of the seemingly very few unique characters Falcon gets a guaranteed kill on from a dash grab from about 80% all the way to 130%. Knee works for any DI except up and away from about 65% to 85%, while bair and uair work for any DI, the former beginning to kill at 80-90% and the latter at 110-120% with no rage from the center of the stage (these two also reliably work on ZSS). Falcon's metagame is seriously unexplored compared to how many people use him and these dthrow kill setups on light characters is one of the things that needs to be implemented as well as explored more.

As far as I can remember the grab hitbox on Falcon Dive starts very close to the ground. I'll need to check it again because it's been a while since I last fought a Pikachu.

Also it's very true that we need more documentation about Falcon's Dthrow, I didn't even know the percent range was this big on Pikachu.

 

[Moydow]

Hey guys, just dropping in to say that the Robin boards are about to begin discussing the match-up over at our match-up thread. Any input you all have would be appreciated!

 

[In_3D]

So I was facing a Megaman player on my 2DS today, and he immediately blocked all my approaches by simply jumping and shooting pellets. I beat him by playing patient and making good follow ups, but the MU was incredibly hard. I simply wasn't fast enough to catch him when his shots were finished to punish him because another barrage of pellets would come out immediately. I was shielding everything yet I couldn't break this annoying defense. Thoughts?

 

[Shinyman337]

So I was facing a Megaman player on my 2DS today, and he immediately blocked all my approaches by simply jumping and shooting pellets. I beat him by playing patient and making good follow ups, but the MU was incredibly hard. I simply wasn't fast enough to catch him when his shots were finished to punish him because another barrage of pellets would come out immediately. I was shielding everything yet I couldn't break this annoying defense. Thoughts?

First of all we only do one MU at a time (we're currently doing Pikachu) but I'll try to help anyways

While I don't have much experience with this MU the few times I have played it running in and shielding the pellets the shield grabbing during the end lag worked pretty well. You should also try to get the Megaman off stage since his recovery is sooooo vertical and easy to gimp. Use B-air to stage spike if they try to recover low and D-air everything else.

 

[Shinyman337]

Hey guys, just dropping in to say that the Robin boards are about to begin discussing the match-up over at our match-up thread. Any input you all have would be appreciated!

Your profile pic is too good not to mention (Phoenix Wright/Squirtle 4 Smash 4)

 

[Tearbear]

I love bair spacing vs pika
power shielding fair and punishing with jab is cool
ive played a handful of pikas and im pretty confident in the MU

 

[The Pizza Guy]

About time to wrap this up and move on.

Falcon can survive Sonic's back throw particularly well for some reason even though it's a horizontal KO move, and actually kills Sonic earlier with his own back throw as well as uair and bair which are the moves you should mostly be throwing out in this matchup aside from your usual knee/dair traps.

I don't think any of the Falcon players know this but Sonic's back throw got nerfed in knockback during the patch, and now that people know how DI really works in this game it's not as threatening as it was.

 

[Trifroze]

I don't think any of the Falcon players know this but Sonic's back throw got nerfed in knockback during the patch, and now that people know how DI really works in this game it's not as threatening as it was.

I knew, I was actually asking how strong it used to be in the competitive impressions topic a while back since I was surprised of how late it killed, but didn't get an answer. I noticed after 1.0.6 that it's about the same as other moderately strong back throws in the game aside from the advantage of moving backwards if you don't use it right at the edge.

The reason I wrote "Falcon can survive it particularly well for some reason" is because fast fallers with high gravity like Falcon tend to die faster horizontally and slower vertically but Falcon still survives Sonic's horizontal back throw for noticeably longer than Yoshi who has much less gravity and fall speed but the same weight (usually surviving horizontal KO moves a few percents longer).

Also I agree, powershielding negates all the advantage Pikachu has with his dark hurtbox magic when using fair and bair on shield. I've also started wondering how up tilt would work in neutral (in any matchup) as an anti-air, it comes out slow but it meteors onto the ground and gives Falcon frame advantage even if the opponent techs, and if they don't you can combo it into knee, two uairs or uair into knee at most percents. It also has a lot of range, a great arc and a cooldown just slightly longer than his dtilt.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Ok so I think it's time I chime in on this thread and make some write ups. Great thread by the way Trifroze! This will be super helpful once we fill it all in. Unfortunately I'm on a phone so no fancy write up at this time but I will share my experience in this MU as I main falcon and secondary pika, I have a good understanding of how they face off.

OVERVIEW
Falcon easily loses this MU. I would say it is better or tied with the shiek MU. A Pikachu that knows how to manipulate QA (Quick Attack) well will get in easy, combo falcon easy and rack up damage. Falcon is left is disarray trying to defend and you need to have very quick situational awareness to read what to do after a QA. Pika is small leaving SH UAirs almost useless unless perfectly spaced. Grab can be difficult on pika after moves such as bair, dsmash, and dash attack. Pika can gimp the hell out of falcon extremely easy. Edge guarding pika is extremely hard unless vs his side b. Comboing pika needs to be fast and precise as to not get hit by his multitude of combo breakers


Pros
-Light character yields early kills
-Pika doesn't have many kill moves. Your opponent will mostly be trying to gimp you and at higher percents, be forced to fish for some smashes
-Dash grab makes for punishes most pikas won't expect

Cons
-Pika can combo falcon hard
-Can gimp falcon hard
-Falcon can't risk offstage edgeguarding very much
-QA is approach option that sets up for combos easy on falcon
-thunderjolt to play keepaway or spam gimp falcon at ledge
-mobility to keep you guessing


Stages to pick
Pickachu does well on all stages.....he just does less well on some
-Final Destination - take away his platforms to cancel on. QA is the hardest thing for falcon to counter so try to minimize the threat. Also more space will be better for falcon in a MU with so many safe aerial attacks
-Duck Hunt - about same as above


Stages not to Pick
Battlefield - Pika LOVES this map and with good reason. You can QA ledge cancel around the whole map and keep your opponent guessing. BF ledge also makes for easy gimps and hits at the lip. Pika sacrifices uthrow Thunder at most spots here but you should DI out of that setup anyhow


This is all I can think of at the moment on my phone stuck in a car. Hope this helps a little with the full write up

 

[Trifroze]

I don't think Pikachu's small size gives him any defensive advantage in the air. Falcon's uair and bair both straight up beat Pikachu's fair, bair and nair from the side and uair beats Pikachu's everything from below, most of these, especially anything involving Falcon's back air, don't require anything close to pixel specific spacing either. Hell, Falcon's dair beats Pikachu's nair from the side and it's actually a decent choice in neutral. Not safe, but body hitbox kills at 90% and meteor hitbox is a meteor hitbox.

Throwing out QA in neutral is dangerous for Pikachu because if Falcon shields it there's easily enough time to react to where Pikachu ends up and punish with a dash grab which means 30-40% of damage at low to mid percents and a kill confirm to bair from 80 to 110%, uair for a while longer. Pikachu is not hard to combo since he isn't floaty, his tail has a hurtbox and his combobreaker aerials lose to Falcon as I mentioned earlier.

Falcon does lose this matchup but QA or aerials aren't the reason. They're something to take advantage of instead.

 

[HoodedAltair]

So what falcon really needs to take advantage of in the MU is pikas lack of range, especially in the air. Juggle Pika and be aware of quick aerials that could combo break.

 

[Silvalfo]

Wasn't there an specific situation this MU in which a crouched pikachu faced towards you can't be grabbed but one faced backwards can (Tail hurtbox)?

Regarding stages, Town and City may be a good CP. It has enough space to work around and read QAs and its blastzones are kinda small, which favors our greater kill power.

And apparently Falcon's worst MUs are those who can use Battlefield better than he can.

 

[Shinyman337]

And apparently Falcon's worst MUs are those who can use Battlefield better than he can.

I guess Pika could use Battlefield better then Falcon, the static platforms allow for more QA shenanigans in neutral than on a stage like FD or Duckhunt. Pika can also use the platforms to start aerial combos (even though Falcon can do this better as U-air can lead into itself or a knee)

 

[Trifroze]

Summary:
Pikachu can completely avoid Falcon's jab and grab in his fair and bair landing lag animations so Falcon will sometimes have to resort to dtilt and dash attack as punishes, but on every other move he can resort to his usual choices or just try to powershield and jab Pikachu's fair and bair. Getting Pikachu in the air is very rewarding since Falcon's aerials straight up beat all of Pikachu's with proper spacing. Falcon also has some character specific knee follow-ups on Pikachu out of a dash grab buffered dthrow at a wide range of percents with any DI. In addition, Falcon's up b grab disjoint beats all of Pikachu's aerials which is something to consider when recovering, although if you get read or have to recover from far away you should expect to get gimped, but until higher percents it's far from free for Pikachu as long as you mix up your recovery and don't get your jumps eaten by offstage thunderjolts. If Pikachu recovers with side b or stalls with down b you can hit him out of them quite easily and you can also try reading his QA path with dair. QA on stage can be punished if you shield it and thunderjolts are often punishable if you dash and powershield them. Avoid getting grabbed because Pikachu also has high damage combos on Falcon and landing from them can be very difficult. Falcon's killing ability surpasses Pikachu by a large margin with more reliable setups and safer kill moves, but watch out for usmash and fsmash as well as dash attack at higher percents. All in all this matchup is in Pikachu's favor because Falcon dislikes most things Pikachu can do to him, but it isn't nearly as one sided as many make it out to be. Patiently shield Pikachu's attacks and avoid getting grabbed, be smart about recovering and up b usage, use your superior range and hitboxes to your advantage with dtilt and aerials, understand when grab and jab work and when they don't and punish Pikachu accordingly with high damage combos and some early kill setups to overcome the disadvantage as much as you can.

Details:
Pikachu can avoid Falcon's jab and grab during the entirety of his bair and fair landing lag all the way until his IASA frames so it's advised to use dtilt or dash attack for punishing these moves instead, or powershield and jab them. Pikachu is also too low to the ground for grab and jab during the beginning of his dair landing lag, dash attack endlag and QA endlag, but as long as you time your grab or jab properly you can get him easily, just don't try to punish him too early. However Pikachu cannot crouch under either one of them as long as his ears are within Falcon's range. In general you'll find yourself using bair, dair, dtilt and dash attack more in this matchup than most others because you sometimes need to hit lower to the ground than what grab and jab allow, but they are still among your best options, you just have to be aware of when to and when not to use them. Thunderjolt shouldn't be a huge problem since you can easily dash forward, powershield it and dash grab/dash attack punish or uair if Pikachu is in the air. Falcon can also punish Pikachu's QA on shield with dash grab if you have decent reaction and combo Pikachu pretty hard due to dthrow having very little endlag on such a light character. Pikachu has longer strings on Falcon especially at low percents but his damage output is lower making the outcome roughly equal, although just like in the Sheik matchup you should avoid being escorted offstage as much as you can. Pikachu has a far better disadvantage than Falcon with easier time landing and much better recovery, but again much of it is thwarted by Falcon having arguably the best advantage in the game whereas Pikachu only has a good one because of lacking range, aerial mobility and powerful finishers.

Dthrow to knee is a true combo on Pikachu between 15 to 50% with any DI, and about 35% further with any DI except up+away and dthrow to bair works similarly between about 40 to 100%, so a Pikachu who's aware of this can't risk it too much in neutral. Pretty much all of Pikachu's aerials lose to Falcon's equivalents with proper spacing; Falcon's bair and uair trump Pikachu's horizontal options and uair trumps Pikachu's dair although the spacing on that one is quite precise. Falcon's up b grab disjoint also beats all of Pikachu's aerials should he jump offstage to try to edgeguard you, but in this scenario you need to confront him from the side as the grab has no hitbox above Falcon. This means that Pikachu won't get free gimps on Falcon and should never face you from the drop zone as long as you're close enough to the stage to utilize your mid-air jump and/or up b grab. Mix up your recovery as much as you can in general: maneuver your up b high if you think he'll try to gimp you from above, use it normally if you think he'll drop in front of you with an aerial or delay it to try to react to whatever he does, and uair him out of your mid-air jumps or just airdodge if you think he'll use thunderjolt or thunder.

However, when you have to recover from far away a good Pikachu will almost certainly get the gimp, but you usually won't be sent far enough for that before about 100% especially by Pikachu. This is still where you'll probably find yourself dying most of the time since Pikachu lacks kill power otherwise except with hard read moves such as his usmash, fsmash and down b setups which can be avoided with DI. Falcon on the other hand has similar setups from dthrow to knee as mentioned earlier but as early as 50% and avoided only by diagonal DI upwards and away, and Falcon's usual kill moves will get Pikachu early because of his light weight. Backwards hit dsmash is something to consider in this matchup, it hits all the way to the ground, has decent range and is safe on shield despite having slow startup, but bair, uair, dair, fair and bthrow should be your primary options as always. You can also gimp predictable side b and down b choices from Pikachu or try to read his QA destinations with dair. All in all, expect to kill Pikachu much earlier than he kills you, and also expect to get gimped much more often than you'll be gimping him.

Pros:
+ Ability to punish everything Pikachu does on shield, although QA requires decent reaction
+ Aerials and dtilt outrange and beat Pikachu's options
+ Better KO ability and considerably higher weight
+ More dangerous advantage and setups on stage

Cons:
- Falcon's grab and jab are shut down in a couple scenarios
- Falcon's recovery is easily gimpable by Pikachu at higher percents
- Tough disadvantage on all regards
- Pikachu has an easy time landing with QA

Stages to ban:
Battlefield: Pikachu loves platforms and QA ledgecancels, and BF offers those.
Lylat: same reasoning as above.

Stages to pick:
Final Destination, Omegas with straight edges: gives Falcon space to work with, removes platforms from Pikachu, and straight walls give Falcon more recovery options.
Duck Hunt: A lot of space and straight edges here as well, most of the platforms are too high for Pikachu to make good use of.
Town & City: High platforms are good for uair kills, smaller blastzones make recovery slightly easier.
Smashville: Fairly neutral, the platform helps Falcon and his bad recovery more than it helps Pikachu.

Since there hasn't been any particular suggestions, let's do Luigi next based on common opinion of him being a really good character. Going to invite the wg boards over.

 

[veritron]

- I think Luigi has a minor edge in the match-up - maybe 5.5/ 4.5. There was a thread earlier here: http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-thread-4-captain-falcon.396706/

The big problems Falcon has are:
1. Fireball stops side-b and falcon kick and falcon doesn't have a projectile - falcon has to approach. Luigi has to be careful about spacing because it's possible for Falcon to shield the fireball and run in and get a throw if he's too close.
2. Very combo-able/spikeable - Falcon falls fast and has very predictable recovery, a d-throw d-air off the edge will probably get the stock, and Luigi can pick up a lot of damage on Falcon with d-throw combos in general.
3. Luigi's n-air screws up Falcon's jab and breaks a lot of his combos, and his b-air has good priorityr.

However:
1. Falcon is fast, hits hard, has better range on his ground smashes, and is more mobile in the air.
2. Luigi can be a litle slow getting back to the edge and has to be very careful about recovery in this matchup.
3. Luigi's traction means that a lot of stuff is safe unless Luigi gets a powershield - but Falcon also has that running grab...
4. Falcon can get to the stage quicker than most with falcon kick and general fall speed, which helps him against Luigi down-b shenanigans.

 

[Samura1man]

I see it's discussion about Falcon vs. Luigi now, I can drop some of personal opinions, I have played against Trifroze a lot, he mains Falcon of course, meanwhile I main Luigi.

I'll list pros first from both characters then cons after that.

Luigi's pros:
Good combos, down throw leads to lots of aeriel attacks and gives lots of damage fast.
Luigi got guaranteed kill moves from down throw to Bair, Nair or tornado, back throw can kill too from close to edge.
Fireballs disturbs approaching from Falcon and it stops raptor boost.
Luigi can break out from Falcon's attacks with Nair.

Falcon's pros:
Falcon can kill Luigi fast, due of Luigi being floaty character.
Uair has good range, it's safe and it covers recovering from above.
Falcon got good combos too, with down throw he can do Nair and Uair, gives lots of damage as well.

Luigi's cons:
Gets gimped easily, bad recovery.
No good way to approach, Luigi's problem in every matchup pretty much.

Falcon's cons:
No guaranteed killing moves from throws.
Falcon has no projectiles.

I would say it's even OR 55-45 to Falcon.

This is my first time commenting about matchups, feel free to mention, if I said something incorrect.

 

[redcometchar]

I would say it's even OR 55-45 to Falcon.

....
Am I missing something?

Falcon kills luigi off the top way later that luigi kills falcon.
I was under the impression that falling nair from luigi beats falcon's up air.
I don't see how luigi's recovery is bad, maybe not awseome, but not bad.

4. Falcon can get to the stage quicker than most with falcon kick and general fall speed, which helps him against Luigi down-b shenanigans.

waaaaat

Falcon kick off stage? like from above?

 

[Samura1man]

....
Am I missing something?

Falcon kills luigi off the top way later that luigi kills falcon.
I was under the impression that falling nair from luigi beats falcon's up air.
I don't see how luigi's recovery is bad, maybe not awseome, but not bad.

I said it's either even or 55-45 for Falcon, it's good for Falcon being able to gimp Luigi and challenge him off stage, which is why Luigi players has to be careful when they recover.

Falcon's raptor boost is good killing move, with rage he even kills faster than you would think, with low ceiling like Halberd, Luigi isn't gonna survive longer than 70% there I think.

Either I'm not a good player or I have never managed to hit Nair before Falcon's Uair while I played against Trifroze, he's better player after all. Falcon's Uair has long range, it's something I don't want to challenge.

 

[redcometchar]

Luigi can gimp falcon just as easy as falcon gimps luigi.

Dosent down throw down b kill earlier than raptor boost? As well as it being much safer.

Maybe I was wrong about nair. Ill test later.

I was under the impression luigi won the matchup but I can see it being even though.

 

[Samura1man]

Luigi can gimp falcon just as easy as falcon gimps luigi.

Dosent down throw down b kill earlier than raptor boost? As well as it being much safer.

Maybe I was wrong about nair. Ill test later.

I wouldn't say Luigi can gimp him that easily, I have seen gimps with Luigi against Falcon with tornado, though I haven't managed to do it yet, I should practice it.

Down throw to tornado kills Falcon around 120-150%, with rage you can kill Falcon earlier than that, but it depends how low the ceiling is, also raptor boost is strong move which kills early.

 

[Trifroze]

Luigi is very floaty and Falcon a fastfaller while also being heavier and possessing stronger vertical KO moves. Granted both usmash and raptor boost are slow and unsafe, but in addition to those options Falcon's uair kills Luigi off of a jump at the same percentages (~130%) Luigi's usmash and cyclone out of jump/dthrow kill Falcon. The cyclone is also hard to pull off versus Falcon if you want to get the full height and thus full kill power. Luigi shouldn't be going for up b very often, and raptor boost in rage almost matches its power because of Luigi's floatiness, killing at 80%. I find myself killing Luigi horizontally more often than vertically though.

Falcon's uair beats every hitbox of Luigi's nair as long as you space decently, otherwise it trades.

Luigi's recovery seems pretty terrible versus Falcon, side b anywhere but the very bottom of the stage will get punished by a dair or bair both of which result in a kill almost every time, and if he recovers extremely deep he's still in danger since up b can get hit by the aforementioned options as well. On stages with walljump possibility all the way to the bottom Falcon can chase Luigi as deep as he wants to though. Also if Luigi is on his final stock you should be going after him no matter how deep he recovers and nail him. I'm not sure how good Luigi's down b is for edgeguarding Falcon (probably good), but Falcon can maneuver around Luigi's aerials with relative ease and up b disjoint beats everything except his fair.

 

[Shinyman337]

While not having much experience in this MU I feel like U-Air is really important as Luigi doesn't have a move to beat it besides maybe Down-B which has alot of lag so Falcon can easily punish it.

Stage to pick: Battlefield, high ceilings benefit Falcon much more than Luigi as Falcon doesn't need to kill off the top. Platforms help Falcon start U-Air strings much easier and they help Falcon escape D-Throw combos.

also does anyone know if Falcon's D-Air beats Luigi's Down-B from the top? I f so D-Air if they Down-B and B-Air if they Up-B

 

[teluoborg]

Falcon's Uair will beat Luigi's Nair and down B from under but only if it is well spaced.

I don't know if it's possible with Falcon but some characters can escape the Dhtrow > down B combo by DIing down during the downB when Luigi is going up.

More generally there are lots of "combos" that you can escape from by simply fastfalling during hitstun.

Other than that the matchup is pretty close to neutral.
Fireball is annoying but can't force Falcon to approach
Both characters have decent kills setup from grab and 2 killing aerials
Luigi can combo Falcon more easily than the opposite due to Luigi's good anti combo and juggling moves
Falcon can gimp Luigi more easily than the opposite, even though Luigi can do some nasty things with offstage down B.

No really I don't see anyone having the advantage in this matchup.

 

[Shinyman337]

Overall I think this MU is completely even. It may sway to 55-45 in Falcon's favor on Battlefield though. On that note Battlefield IMO is the only stage that favors either of these characters over the other.

 

[shrooby]

Hai guys
We're discussing the Falcon match up in yonder Dedede forum.
http://smashboards.com/threads/read...ly-discussing-captain-falcon-5-28-6-1.395045/
Input from the Captain's end would be most appreciated.~

 

[redcometchar]

So I am going to have to withdraw my previous opinion on the matchup.
Although I do still think that luigi kills earlier vertically than falcon with down throw down b. Much earlier than 120-150% especially if we say raptor boost kills at 70% @ Samura1man

In my opinion the neutral is even. Falcon is really fast and luigi's fireball is good enough to control space.

Luigi has aweome combos in down throw as im sure everyone is aware. Falcon has just as good as punish game albeit not as much can come from a grab. Maybe slight advantage to luigi here. slight.
Luigi has great early kill options In down b but so does falcon. Both characters have nasty footstool reset stuff.

However. I think Falcon juggles luigi super easily. Now that I understand nair dosent beat falcon up air, luigi dosent come down easy. As a result I think falcon recovers easier.

So yeah hoppin on the banwagon. Even matchup.

Edit: Also I think a flat stage will be best in the matchup. with a high ceiling. and walls. so an omega of some kind?

Edit2: Maybe +1 Falcon actually. I feel like even though luigi has good combos on falcon and neutral is even, if luigi gets put in the air he dies.

 

[VileMK2]

I'm really not very experienced in the MU, but i tihnk luigi's fireball hinders good falcon's approaches if the opponent knows using them, down b is pretty punishable if luigi fails it, sideb can also be gimped with utilt, i think is hard to falcon to get out of the down throw + fair + fair combo due to its fast fall speed.
PD: If i can suggest the next matchup discussion i would suggest or (He can be a monster if he knows how to use bombs well) or

 

[Samura1man]

At 0% to 10% dthrow -> fair -> fair isn't working, so I do nair instead of second fair, though Falcon is fast faller so they can avoid nair, it isn't guaranteed third hit until about 20% to 40%.

@ redcometchar yeah, like I said before you shouldn't challenge Falcon when he's below, his uair really does hit earlier than Luigi's nair, when Luigi is in the air he cannot do much, uairs will damage a lot and even kill at high percentage.

I still think this matchup is for Falcon's favour, though it can be even too, both has their pros, cons and the characters doesn't destroy the each other that easily, both needs to work hard for their percentage, kills and recovering.

 

[HoodedAltair]

So my opinions on the luigi MU....

Luigi is slippery and fast. He uses fireballs to get grabs and has amazing follow ups off the grab at any percent. This MU revolves around using falcon speed and range to safely apply pressure as well as minimizing grab threats. You need to use falcons burst range while also not giving luigi free fireballs on you. When Luigi recovers, you must capitalize and get the kill. between up b, down b, and side b, down b is his most unpunishable. All are extremely predictable and a good stomp, stage spike, gimp, etc. will take him out.

Note luigi's light weight and combo accordingly. He has a frame 1 nair that can combo break....don't rapid jab luigi. shield is also frame 1, so if you're doing a setup such as jab jab grab, make sure its jab jab, shield, grab.....which will perfect shield and spam nair and then you get the grab. Know when to back off in combo and when to extend. Don't let the tables get flipped with over commitment or a bad air dodge read because you can get punished hard for it.

When luigi tries to down b kill off the top, slam down on control stick to DI out of it

I don't have much more info on the MU. Not too experienced with it myself

 

[Jrzfine]

Oh, Luigi...
Well, first off, hello all! My gamertag's Junior Z, a scrub completely unknown Falcon from AZ. From here on I hope to be quite active on the Falcon boards.
So,
Pros.
Falcon
- Much faster than Luigi
- Strong and plentiful KO options from every position (Dtilt, Bair, Fair, Dair, etc.)
- Dash grab devastates Luigi's attempts at spacing from close range
-Combos deal lots of damage
-Is a heavyweight fastfaller, which helps him survive vertical KO characters well
-Safe aerials
Luigi
- 2 Dolla Slices Dthrow combos work very well on Falcon b/c of large hitbox, heavy weight, fastfaller
- Nair trades with Falcons Uair if the Falcon misspaced
-Fireball. It is slow, which allows Luigi to catch up to it and punish a shielding Falcon with a grab. It also beats Raptor and Kick. This limits Falcon to
a) Give up stage positioning and retreat
b) Powershield
c) Roll
d) Jump
In my experience, using jab to clash with it puts you in too much stun. Enough for weegee to grab you.
-Bair has good priority
-Offstage misfires are somewhat threatening for an edgeguarding Falcon

Cons.
Falcon
-Fireball can be tough to get around
-Combo food
-Luigi Nair breaks most combos
-Tornado can gimp Falcons recovery if he is forced to upB low
-Tornado in general is difficult to escape b/c of large hitbox

Luigi
-Lightweight, can die absurdly early to bair at ledge /fair
- Hideous air and ground speed
-Easily gimpable recovery
-Has trouble killing Falcon

All in all, Falcon outpaces and KOs Luigi far earlier. Luigi's only saving graces are his grab game, nair, and fireball. Fortunately for him, though, all of these things help counter Falcons strengths in the for of his combos. His grabs give Falcon a reason to not be in his face 24/7, Fireball keeps him out when he is at midrange, and when Falcon does finally get in, nair stops his combos in their tracks. I'd give this MU a 60-40 in Falcon's favor.

 

[Lanzoma]

A few things I'd like to add:

• In my experience you never want to DI away during combo %s, as you'll often get regrabbed. DI guarantees a bair but at least it doesn't extend the combo. This might just be the Luigi's I play against, though.
• I've found that holding down, then mashing horizontally (so going from one down diagonal to the other) works pretty well for escaping dthrow -> tornado. I've also heard, but not confirmed, that doing the same but holding up will help prevent getting gimped by tornado offstage.
• Luigi's nair is frame 3. Frame 1 would be beyond disgusting to fight against!

 

[WispBae]

Howdy there! The doggy boards are discussing the CF MU, and would appreciate your input!

Click the picture of this knee (I know you all can't resist...~) to hop straight to the thread! Thanks!

 

[Gawain]

I think Luigi is a pretty bad matchup for Falcon to be perfectly honest. I usually switch if I know they're playing Luigi. Luigi just destroys Falcon at low and mid percents. He can combo you incredibly well, he can beat jab cheese easily, and fireballs shut down the rest of Falcon's approach options fairly well (though Falcon can punish whiffed fireballs pretty well). The worst part though is that Falcon can't safely followup against Luigi like he can vs many other top tier characters. Luigi's nair is just too fast and has too great of a hitbox. I find myself almost never going for knees vs Luigi unless I can score a falling uair on him (like from a fireball or something similar).

On the plus side though, lots of Falcon's kill moves will kill Luigi really early (Boost, Kick sweetspot etc) due to his light weight. My best advice if you really have to play this matchup with Falcon is just to play it safe. Keep followups to safe ones, don't try to overextend combos, and try your absolute best to never get grabbed. I also find that staying within 4 character lengths of Luigi is ideal for Falcon, since the fireballs are a lot less dangerous at this range, as the animation will last too long from a shield for Luigi to grab you.

 

[Space Stranger]

We're still talking about the Green Linguini? I'll add my input since I main both.

Pros (For ):

• Aside from his combo-breaking Nair, Luigi doesn't have many options while being juggled in the air.
• Luigi's recovery options can be easily gimped
  
• Poor air mobility
• Middleweight (easier to launch near tthe edge)
• Faster speed can be used to pressure Luigi

Cons (For ):

• Falcon's recovery is predictable and can be gimped
  
• Luigi will use his fireball to space out Falcon's approaches
  
• Falcon is easily trapped by many of Luigi's options such as tornado's large hitbox or Dthrow -> Fair
  
• Nair breaks combos

In my experience with both characters, Luigi slightly benefits from this match up with his ability to distance himself from Falcon and his ability to trap Falcon with tornado, down throw -> Fair, and dash attack. Nair also gets Weegee out of most sticky situations and his grab game rivals Falcon. While Falcon doesn't have a difficult time fighting him than with , it's not one of his easier match ups.

 

[TriTails]

Yo. Luigi main and Falcon player here:

I'll start with Luigi. From 0%, he can U-throw + U-air + N-air and can lead to another's D-throw upon landing due to Falcon's falling speed. There he can F-air chaingrab or U-tilt string you.

Luigi can easily string his attacks well despite mobility, simply avoiding the D-throw is not the way on beating Luigi. His SH aerials are a pain if he uses it correctly (DO NOT TRY TO PUNISH F-AIR, U-AIR, OR D-AIR OUT OF ONE SHORTHOP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE N-AIRED). Not to mention his Fireballs can hit you from afar. But all of his options LOSES against shields (Oftentimes though. People just run to them to the because 'OH I CAN PUNISH!', or you shield one aerial, and get N-aired after).

At kill percents, Luigi better off RAR B-airing Falcon for earlier kills. HOWEVER, HooHahNado, while it's not as deadly as usual in this MU (Thank Falcon's falling speed and weight), it can still juggle you to death. Luigi can simply opt to NOT mash and still sends you in the air anyway, giving you disadvantage state even though it doesn't mean direct kills. DO NOT challenge his U-smash. You have been warned. If for whatever reason the Luigi gets cokcy and you fall out of it, never miss the chance to U-air him right after.

Aside from that, Falcon's approach can be countered in various ways. Though, this is a total mindgame. You generally DO NOT want to whiff anything here, as a mistake = punish = death.

Luigi's D-air stomps Falcon's Falcon Dive. Falcon Dive has wonky vertical hitbox and can be easily hit with this. A hit and you are most likely dead, even when it doesn't meteor. Or if you are aiming for the ledge, Luigi can hang on the ledge and B-air you as you come. Luigi can destroy Falcon off-stage here.

Now on Falcon's side. Falcon has extreme mobility to run circles around Luigi. However, his attack speed isn't the greatest, and can be easily out-peformed by Luigi's currently highest attack speed (Normals wise). Though, while Falcon's damage output is generally stronger (F-smash that deals 19%. U-air that deals 13%. Really?), Falcon will need to rely on mistake from Luigi here.

List of Luigi's moves that you must NOT punish unless you are running towards him and he whiff his attacks just inches before you:
- Jab 1 and 2
- U-smash front hit
- D-smash back hit
- F-smash
- SH (double) F-air, U-air, or D-air (SH spaced B-air is safe on shield BTW)
- Fireballs

And on Falcon's advantage, you basically can juggle Luigi to death here. However, Luigi can opt to resetting to the ledge with Missile and airdodges. Either you read his airdodges (Though, he is most likely has fallen off the ledge anyway), or you hit him with U-tilt. Falcon's U-air strings work pretty well here, and Luigi, while isn't particularly light (1 weight unit lower from Mario), his floatyness mean his vertical survivability is a bit worse than people in his weight class.

Falcon can KO Luigi easy, but it would require some rage to actually kill him early outside of edgeguards (I have survived to 120% - 130% from Raptor Boost. Though, admittely, it's on a 3DS)

On the other hand, Falcon's disadvantage is really bad. Once he traps you in his combos, pray to God that he mess up (Very unlikely) and keep DI-ing away from him. And mistakes can equal to either D-throw or FJP.

Luigi's traction is by far the worst (Sitting at 0.024. 2nd worst traction (Charizard) is 0.4... ARGH THIS GAME IS STUPID!). Which means moves that aren't usually safe on shield becomes the opposite here. F-smash is safe on shield, for example (Funnily enough. I can't think of other moves that are safe on Luigi's shield). However...

PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY... DO NOT FALCON KICK TO HIS SHIELD AT MIDRANGE!

I'm not sure if this is the case with other characters, but Falcon Kick's rushing, combined with Luigi's poor traction, will make Falcon CARRIES Luigi if Falcon hit Luigi's shield half-way through the move, and TO THE END. And if you managed to do this? Guess what time would that be?

SHORYUKEN!

I kid you not. At best he'd grab you. At worst he'll ROTFL FJP you.

Now onto Falcon's edgeguarding. He edgeguards Luigi alright, with U-tilt and D-air. Thing is, Luigi can opt to recovering high up. And I mean REALLY high up (Green Missile, and then jumped Cyclone to the sky). This can ignore U-tilt, D-tilt, D-air and whatever completely. BUT! He no longer has his double jump now. You can juggle him, just respect his options (Especially N-air and D-air), and bait out airdodges. If he recovers low... well, D-air, B-air, U-tilt, whatever.

In a nutshell, both characters have very dangerous advantages, but pretty bad disadvantages (Falcon's worse. At least Luigi has N-air), can edgeguard each other well. Both are extremely strong on-stage, and their off-stage game... are okay... I guess (I feel Luigi has more freedom off-stage with his floatiness and lagless F-air). Luigi combos the crap out of Falcon, but Falcon punches the crap out of Luigi if he is in advantage. Both KOs each other pretty well, but Falcon has the edge simply on how stupid powerful some of his moves are.

IMO. This MU is 55-45 Luigi's favor. Fireballs gives Falcon trouble, and dimmed one of Luigi's weaknesses, bad approach. because Falcon has to approach here. However, they go pretty evenly onstage, and both edgeguards each other well. But Luigi just seem to have the edge simply on how fast his attacks and how brutal his punishes are.

Though. This may lean to even. The MU never felt terribly hard or terribly easy. But I DO think Luigi has a very slight advantage.

As a quick comment:

On the plus side though, lots of Falcon's kill moves will kill Luigi really early (Boost, Kick sweetspot etc) due to his light weight.

Luigi
-Lightweight, can die absurdly early to bair at ledge /fair

Note luigi's light weight

What.

What.

What.

What the hell is wrong with you people.

 

[Gawain]

Yo. Luigi main and Falcon player here:

I'll start with Luigi. From 0%, he can U-throw + U-air + N-air and can lead to another's D-throw upon landing due to Falcon's falling speed. There he can F-air chaingrab or U-tilt string you.

Luigi can easily string his attacks well despite mobility, simply avoiding the D-throw is not the way on beating Luigi. His SH aerials are a pain if he uses it correctly (DO NOT TRY TO PUNISH F-AIR, U-AIR, OR D-AIR OUT OF ONE SHORTHOP IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE N-AIRED). Not to mention his Fireballs can hit you from afar. But all of his options LOSES against shields (Oftentimes though. People just run to them to the because 'OH I CAN PUNISH!', or you shield one aerial, and get N-aired after).

At kill percents, Luigi better off RAR B-airing Falcon for earlier kills. HOWEVER, HooHahNado, while it's not as deadly as usual in this MU (Thank Falcon's falling speed and weight), it can still juggle you to death. Luigi can simply opt to NOT mash and still sends you in the air anyway, giving you disadvantage state even though it doesn't mean direct kills. DO NOT challenge his U-smash. You have been warned. If for whatever reason the Luigi gets cokcy and you fall out of it, never miss the chance to U-air him right after.

Aside from that, Falcon's approach can be countered in various ways. Though, this is a total mindgame. You generally DO NOT want to whiff anything here, as a mistake = punish = death.

Luigi's D-air stomps Falcon's Falcon Dive. Falcon Dive has wonky vertical hitbox and can be easily hit with this. A hit and you are most likely dead, even when it doesn't meteor. Or if you are aiming for the ledge, Luigi can hang on the ledge and B-air you as you come. Luigi can destroy Falcon off-stage here.

Now on Falcon's side. Falcon has extreme mobility to run circles around Luigi. However, his attack speed isn't the greatest, and can be easily out-peformed by Luigi's currently highest attack speed (Normals wise). Though, while Falcon's damage output is generally stronger (F-smash that deals 19%. U-air that deals 13%. Really?), Falcon will need to rely on mistake from Luigi here.

List of Luigi's moves that you must NOT punish unless you are running towards him and he whiff his attacks just inches before you:
- Jab 1 and 2
- U-smash front hit
- D-smash back hit
- F-smash
- SH (double) F-air, U-air, or D-air (SH spaced B-air is safe on shield BTW)
- Fireballs

And on Falcon's advantage, you basically can juggle Luigi to death here. However, Luigi can opt to resetting to the ledge with Missile and airdodges. Either you read his airdodges (Though, he is most likely has fallen off the ledge anyway), or you hit him with U-tilt. Falcon's U-air strings work pretty well here, and Luigi, while isn't particularly light (1 weight unit lower from Mario), his floatyness mean his vertical survivability is a bit worse than people in his weight class.

Falcon can KO Luigi easy, but it would require some rage to actually kill him early outside of edgeguards (I have survived to 120% - 130% from Raptor Boost. Though, admittely, it's on a 3DS)

On the other hand, Falcon's disadvantage is really bad. Once he traps you in his combos, pray to God that he mess up (Very unlikely) and keep DI-ing away from him. And mistakes can equal to either D-throw or FJP.

Luigi's traction is by far the worst (Sitting at 0.024. 2nd worst traction (Charizard) is 0.4... ARGH THIS GAME IS STUPID!). Which means moves that aren't usually safe on shield becomes the opposite here. F-smash is safe on shield, for example (Funnily enough. I can't think of other moves that are safe on Luigi's shield). However...

PLEASE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY... DO NOT FALCON KICK TO HIS SHIELD AT MIDRANGE!

I'm not sure if this is the case with other characters, but Falcon Kick's rushing, combined with Luigi's poor traction, will make Falcon CARRIES Luigi if Falcon hit Luigi's shield half-way through the move, and TO THE END. And if you managed to do this? Guess what time would that be?

SHORYUKEN!

I kid you not. At best he'd grab you. At worst he'll ROTFL FJP you.

Now onto Falcon's edgeguarding. He edgeguards Luigi alright, with U-tilt and D-air. Thing is, Luigi can opt to recovering high up. And I mean REALLY high up (Green Missile, and then jumped Cyclone to the sky). This can ignore U-tilt, D-tilt, D-air and whatever completely. BUT! He no longer has his double jump now. You can juggle him, just respect his options (Especially N-air and D-air), and bait out airdodges. If he recovers low... well, D-air, B-air, U-tilt, whatever.

In a nutshell, both characters have very dangerous advantages, but pretty bad disadvantages (Falcon's worse. At least Luigi has N-air), can edgeguard each other well. Both are extremely strong on-stage, and their off-stage game... are okay... I guess (I feel Luigi has more freedom off-stage with his floatiness and lagless F-air). Luigi combos the crap out of Falcon, but Falcon punches the crap out of Luigi if he is in advantage. Both KOs each other pretty well, but Falcon has the edge simply on how stupid powerful some of his moves are.

IMO. This MU is 55-45 Luigi's favor. Fireballs gives Falcon trouble, and dimmed one of Luigi's weaknesses, bad approach. because Falcon has to approach here. However, they go pretty evenly onstage, and both edgeguards each other well. But Luigi just seem to have the edge simply on how fast his attacks and how brutal his punishes are.

Though. This may lean to even. The MU never felt terribly hard or terribly easy. But I DO think Luigi has a very slight advantage.

As a quick comment:


What.

What.

What.

What the hell is wrong with you people.

His weight isn't incredibly high. I wouldn't consider him a heavy weight. He's also floaty and so these properties tend to make people say "light" as a catch all. He does die to raptor boost etc modestly early.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah Luigi is definitely medium weight (he's right in the middle at 97 actually), although most top and high tiers are around 90 or much lower so basically anything above that could be considered heavy. I'd say below 70 is Jigglypuff tier, 70-80 very light, 80-90 light, 90-100 medium which is where Luigi ranks, 100-110 heavy which is where Falcon ranks and 110+ superheavy, although fall speed is very important too and it affects Luigi pretty negatively in terms of knockback so vertically he's on level with high 80s.

I'll do a write up soon, might make them slightly shorter for now though since it's a good couple hours of work each time and these conversations tell mostly everything after all.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi has about the same vertical survivability as Pac-Man. He is on the top of mediumweight on Luigi player's survivability list. He is in no way light, nor his vertical survivability sucks THAT bad. Dying ridiculously early means stuffs like Jigglypuff dying to Luigi's FJP at like 49%. 80%% is early, but not ridiculously early.

Then again. You guys sure about that? Because I have lived to like 120% from Falcon's Raptor Boost, and you guys would never reach full rage if the Luigi player is doing it right (D-throw to RAR B-air or rage back throw (Lol) YEEAAAHHH!!!!). Especially since Luigi can edgeguard Falcon quite easily.

Oh. And thank your falling speed and weight. Because lots of Luigi's KO moves KO off the top >_>. B-air will probbaly be his main killing move here along with back throw. Falcon DOES die later than Ganon vertically after all.