Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

Trifroze

all is cheese, all is jank
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Trifroze
Alright so first and foremost I think what we should be doing is discuss every matchup in this topic not on a weekly manner, but in a way that we move onto the next MU as soon or as late as we feel comfortable. No point in setting a strict time window when it could mean we still have things left to cover or that we will be at a solid conclusion in two days and sit doing nothing for five. We should invite the respective character boards to join in on the conversations and archive those convos into this first post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/-1 type of system, and any posts not related to the subject we're discussing at a particular time should be strictly ignored, but any conversation related to the MU at hand at a given time is welcome, the relevant bits will be picked and compiled eventually. If no one is against this, we should get started as soon as we can.

With the method we'd be using it would be the most beneficial to focus on one character at a time, get it out of the way and move on to the next one instead of glancing over several characters at a time. We should probably start from ones that we have some serious insight on and who are also the most problematic. The top tiers are probably the most important ones to discuss, however that is also precisely why we shouldn't discuss them unless we have players with truly sufficient experience versus said characters. I have quite a lot of experience versus generally all of them except Sonic, Fox and Sheik, so initially I'd like to start with someone other than those three, and I might know just the one. Regardless, we have to start with someone so let's kick this off with Diddy Kong, shall we?

Summary:

- One character at a time
- Start from biggest threats, but avoid ones we have no decent experience against
- Move on to another character when we feel ready, but try to keep this active
- Invite respective character boards to the conversation in this topic
- Archive said conversations into this post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/- system

Discussion:
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Summary:
Both Falcon and Diddy have to respect each others' grab game, with Falcon being aided by his speed and Diddy having bananas to set up grabs. Stay in mid range outside of Diddy's aerials and use Falcon's speed to try to punish Diddy's aerials and prevent him from pulling out a banana, and if he manages to do it, play much safer. Diddy's aerials are still very good and his banana and grab setups dangerous. Note that Falcon can run over bananas without tripping during his initial dash, so use this to your advantage. While Diddy can combo Falcon pretty hard, Falcon can do the same to Diddy with a higher damage output and more dangerous options. Try to force Diddy to recover low whenever he's offstage and always attempt to gimp his up b or read and punish his side b. Falcon KOs Diddy easier than vice-versa after the patch. The matchup is considered approximately even.

Details:

Neutral is roughly even as long as you don't let Diddy get a banana out. Falcon is good at preventing and punishing this along with Diddy's many other options with his greater speed as long as you stay in mid range, just outside the range of Diddy's troublesome fair but close enough to punish things like dtilt. If he does get the banana out, he trades the ability to use his aerials for a quick and strong punish game. Hence you should avoid using dashgrab or dash attack unless you're sure you'll catch him off guard because otherwise he'll punish them with about 20% of damage. Play safe and approach with shield or spotdodge to bait him, or shorthop aerials since banana throw isn't fast enough to punish the likes of well-spaced uair or bair into shield. Cover yourself with your jab to prevent Diddy from throwing the banana at you or grabbing you whenever you can, it's an especially great tool in this matchup. Falcon can also straight up run over the banana without tripping during the his (long) initial dash animation. You can spotdodge or roll backwards against monkeyflip out of reaction and punish with dash attack or grab, or you can challenge it with uair or utilt.

Falcon's disadvantage is a bit worse than Diddy's because of his greater lack of defensive aerial options and his size and weight, but a stronger advantage because of superior speed on the ground and in the air, higher damage output and greater KO power. Diddy is one of those characters in disadvantage who can convert an opponent's bad spacing into his own advantage with his uair, so try to not end up above him after your uair follow-ups which can happen at low percents if you unnecessarily do them out of a fullhop.

One very important part is to always try to read Diddy's monkeyflip whether he's above you or offstage and challenge it with uair/dair or punish it with bair and in general try to scare him into recovering low. You can then intercept his up b with many of Falcon's lingering aerials such as the soft knee, bair or nair. Try not to let him angle his recovery past you onto the stage though. You can option-select this by dropping down with bair when he uses his up b, second jump back to the stage and punish him if he lands there. Falcon doesn't have to fear Diddy too much when recovering as long as you recover low, but watch out for drop zone fair and his dtilt on the 2 frame ledge vulnerability, which can get quite annoying at its worst.

Pros:
- Greater speed and lesser landing lag on aerials makes Falcon's ability to punish Diddy greater than vice-versa
- Better ability to intercept and prevent Diddy's bananas than most characters
- Higher damage output
- Stronger and safer KO moves

Cons:
- Banana turns the punish game around; Falcon has to slow his game down and play more safe with less reward
- Despite lesser damage output, Diddy has more guaranteed follow-ups out of a grab especially with Falcon's weight and gravity
- In addition, slower aerials and the lack of below-hitting ones leave Falcon with less options to free himself from combos

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: uthrow to uair is still somewhat of a KO option for Diddy while Falcon likes to kill horizontally
- Town & City: same as above, but to a lesser extent

Stages to pick:
- Duck Hunt: straight walls aid Falcon's recovery, a lot of space to move around in, large blastzones emphasize Diddy's lack of relative kill power
- Battlefield: high ceiling, platforms help Falcon arguably more than Diddy, you can meteor through the stage near the ledges
- Omegas with straight walls: all-around decent for Falcon, with a wall jump option when recovering
Discussion:
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Summary:
Play patient and safe, punish everything you can with proper spacing, and avoid getting gimped. Risks, aggression and mistakes in general can be very costly in this matchup because both characters have a strong advantage but Falcon's disadvantage and recovery are worse than Yoshi's. However, Falcon also has better tools to play safe as well as punish mistakes and KO. Pressure Yoshi with your aerials and the threat of your speed at mid range into using his unsafe approach options and punish him for them or anything else he does, and capitalize on his recovery if you get a chance to hit him out of his up b. The matchup is about even.

Details:

Yoshi can strongly capitalize on Falcon's two main weaknesses: his linear recovery and his susceptibility to combos. Yoshi also has a good disadvantage in comparison to most characters because he possesses a frame 3 nair and jab both with good hitboxes that can set Falcon up for follow-ups, monstrous aerial speed and a projectile that covers his recovery. Falcon however is faster than Yoshi overall with safer options and better speed and range in neutral. Thus, it's very important for Falcon to play this matchup patiently while always spacing properly with safe follow-ups to avoid letting Yoshi get anything started, especially at lower percents when he can combo you from 0 to about 40-50%.

Pressure Yoshi in mid range with your speedy approaches or let him come to you with his limited approach options. Bair and uair work for intercepting his aerial approaches as well as for spacing around or pressuring Yoshi, as he has a tough time punishing Falcon's bair. Shield his shorthop egg throw approaches; the only thing he can do after one is nair which you can easily punish. He can start the command grab too, but you can jab him before it comes out or at least react with a spotdodge and punish afterwards. Fullhop egg throws give you enough time to run below him and start a juggle with uairs, and Yoshi does not want to get juggled by Falcon, just watch out for his b reversals. Yoshi's grab is slow and throws don't kill or combo so you don't have to worry about his grab game too much.

When you're getting juggled, don't airdodge because Yoshi's frametraps are way too good and he'll get you anyway. Instead focus on DI and jump away when possible. Also watch out for egg -> fair/uair and utilt -> uair which are kill % combos. Be careful if Yoshi is using the egg launch custom and avoid stages with walk-offs, this sends you pretty far back. When offstage, recover low as long as you have your second jump left and cover it with uair to avoid being gimped by his dair or nair. If you lose your second jump and get hit further offstage you can increase your slim chance of survival by recovering high in this scenario as long as it's possible. While Yoshi usually likes to recover high, he is much the same, if he has to use up b or he commits to an aerial after his second jump hence losing his superarmor, you can jab or dtilt him out of it at the ledge or anticipate and intercept his choice with dair to gimp him. Sometimes Yoshi players will jump from the ledge with a dair because it autocancels that way, however it's a long move and thus a huge commitment which you can punish with an fsmash upon reading or reacting to it.

Falcon kills Yoshi more easily than vice-versa, and with Falcon's general safety and speed advantage you can capitalize on this quite far if you keep playing patiently at high percents. Also keep in mind that Yoshi dies more easily vertically due to having low gravity, while Falcon survives better in that direction which coincidentally is Yoshi's preferred killing axle. In addition to your other KO options, you can particularly consider using Raptor Boost or usmash to try to catch him from shorthops and kill him early, although it involves some risk. You'll also find plenty of opportunities to land them as punishes if you wait enough.

Pros:
- Safer approaches and faster punishing game
- Much more threatening grab game
- Higher KO power

Cons:
- Disadvantage and defensive options at low to mid percents are pretty terrible compared to Yoshi
- Offstage is extremely dangerous especially after losing second jump
- Can't play risky due to the above, on the contrary there's no need either

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: while Yoshi dies pretty early vertically and Falcon doesn't, Yoshi also prefers to kill vertically, but if you think you can take advantage of the situation go ahead
- Town & City: same as above
- Anything with walk-offs: the egg launch custom is deadly here and who likes walk-offs anyway

Stages to pick:
- Battlefield: while a good Yoshi can be deadly with platforms, so can Falcon, and the ceiling is higher than average here
- Omegas with straight walls: Yoshi doesn't have anything to camp Falcon out with, there's room for Falcon to move in, and the walls help Falcon's recovery
- Duck Hunt: large stage for Falcon to capitalize on his better KO ability with walls to help his recovery
- Kongo Jungle: very high ceiling and large blastzones to capitalize on Falcon's KO ability, Falcon benefits from barrel and platforms for his recovery more than Yoshi does
Discussion:
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Summary:
Falcon's combo and punish game hurts Sheik a lot more than Sheik's hurts you due to higher damage output and more dangerous finishers, however the real danger for Falcon is getting carried offstage since it can lead to gimps which Sheik excels at. DI away from her fair strings and always watch out for Bouncing Fish, Needles and stage spikes when offstage, and always mix up your recovery. Punish Sheik's up b ledgesnap vulnerability with bair whenever possible. Sheik's close range and long range games are better due to her tilts and needles respectively and approaches safer due to her great range and low lag, although Falcon has some safe approach options of his own and a more potent punish game at mid range. Falcon has the tools to combat Sheik as long as you avoid getting gimped, but it will happen to you from time to time. However Sheik's main weakness is her lack of kill power which Falcon excels at while also being much heavier than Sheik, so this evens it out quite a lot. The matchup is considered to be a disadvantage for Falcon, but not a massive one for now.

Details:

Sheik has safer options in neutral due to Needles, better frame data, good range and her low lag, but Falcon has some safe and dangerous tools of his own for both approaching and punishing. Watch out for Sheik's ftilt and dtilt which setup into combos as well as her dash attack and needles which can punish most things Falcon has on the ground. Stay in mid range just outside of her tilts and aerials and use dtilt to outspace her on the ground and buffered shorthop uair and bair to intercept her fairs. Sheik's needles are also unsafe at these distances, although you still have to watch out for her dash attack although it's a very unsafe option on her part. Punish all her mistakes hard with dash grab and uair juggles. Falcon's falling uair and bair are safe on Sheik's shield so you can use these for approaching and footsies, but nair can also control space although it's less good of a trade against her aerials and a bigger commitment than bair and uair. As always, cover your landings with jab if you feel like she'll try to grab you, but rapid jab doesn't work in this matchup.

Falcon's advantage in general is much more dangerous to Sheik than Sheik's advantage is to Falcon due to your higher damage output and more dangerous finisher, however Sheik can combo you offstage with fair strings and gimp you at relatively low percents if you make mistakes or she makes the right reads on your recovery. Hence it's always important to properly DI away from her combos and try to challenge her fairs with uair since it hits in front of Falcon. Be ready to airdodge Bouncing Fish and Needles and always mix up your recovery by covering your second jump with uair or airdodge if she approaches, using your up b immediately or delaying it, going straight for the ledge / landing onto the stage / grabbing Sheik out of a failed read with your up b etc. At low percents you can make it back with relative ease because you have all these options, however once you start getting knocked further and further offstage your options become more limited. Fortunately her fair strings stop working eventually as long as you properly DI away from them. Also always be ready to tech stage spikes. When Sheik recovers, you may chase her with RAR bair and dair, read and punish her bouncing fish, and always attempt to bair her ledgesnap vulnerability when she uses up b onto the ledge as it is fairly easy to do and can net you a KO at relatively low percents if she misses the tech or doesn't react in time. If she does tech, you can second jump uair after hitting her. Just don't go for it when she uses her up b close to the ledge or you'll be hit by the explosion.

Falcon has an easier time KOing Sheik when it comes to other areas, and his two safest options in neutral, uair and bair, also get rid of Sheik easily due to her fairly light weight. Sheik gets comboed and juggled pretty hard by Falcon so try to always get the most out of that and condition her to an airdodge to finish it off with a knee or dair. Sheik won't kill you until well after 150% as long as you don't fall victim to bad DI or unnecessary airdodges out of her throw setups in which case she can kill you with uair or up b earlier than that. Expect to get gimped occasionally, live to 180% occasionally and always KO Sheik between 80-140%. Since your often in rage, uthrow and bthrow can become more viable kill options as well.

Falcon does have the tools to deal with Sheik aside from the gimp factor, so be particularly smart about this one thing and acknowledge your competent neutral, better KO ability and more threatening advantage and utilize it all to make this MU as small of a disadvantage as you can.

Pros:
+ Better mid range game due to higher speed and all Sheik's options bar properly spaced aerials being unsafe from dash grab
+ Dtilt outranges her immediate ground options
+ Falcon's uair and bair are good for trading with Sheik's fair
+ Higher damage output
+ Much better KO ability

Cons:
- Offstage is extremely dangerous and Sheik has combos to get us there
- Close range is worse due to Sheik's faster jab and tilts that combo or lead into above combos
- Sheik's mid range isn't bad either due to her high speed and dash attack
- It can be hard to find openings in neutral with Sheik's frame data, range and low landing lag

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: to avoid any early shenanigan kills from Sheik such as dthrow uair

Stages to pick:
- Omegas (with straight walls): helps Falcon's recovery quite a lot by giving more options
Discussion:
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Summary:
Falcon's dash grab is a tool that makes him faster than Sonic at mid to mid-long range, although Sonic is still much faster in terms of dashing itself and can pressure better with speed alone. Needless to say both characters punish each other easily. Sonic isn't a combo heavy character and his damage output isn't huge either, so Falcon's advantage is relatively much stronger in this matchup. Unlike Falcon, Sonic doesn't have safe approaches but he can mix them up very well, and while you have options against all of them sometimes it'll require awareness and decent reaction on your part which is the main challenge here. Hence you should mainly stay within a range where you can comfortably shield/hold jab on his spindashes but still react if he tries to grab you instead while pressuring him with your aerials and punishing any commitments with your faster dash grab. Try to keep Sonic in the air when you get him there and always punish his dair and landings. While Sonic can't really juggle Falcon, he is good at punishing Falcon's landing options with his speed. When Sonic is offstage you should mainly try to get his ledge vulnerability with dtilt or bair unless he's very far offstage in which case you can RAR chase him. You shouldn't be gimped by Sonic's spring unless you're knocked so far offstage that you don't have the option to hit the spring with an aerial or maneuver around it with your up b at all, and if he chases you down with aerials you can outright grab him out of them with up b's grab range. Falcon kills earlier in this matchup. All in all Falcon vs Sonic is roughly even.

Details:

Falcon can stop Sonic's spindash by holding jab resetting into a boxing situation or sometimes outright beating it, and you can shield Sonic's spindash and punish any follow-up attacks like neutral b or his aerials with uair and bair. Sonic has decent boxing options in his jab and ftilt, but your dtilt outranges his boxing options and jab puts him into a much worse position than his jab puts Falcon. Spring jump is Sonic's safest option to get away from trouble, but it puts him in the air for juggles and landing punishes even if he goes for an autocancelled dair. You can hit him out of this with uair or punish his landing with dash grab or dash attack even if it's autocancelled as long as you time it well which you have plenty of time for. The main problem here is reacting to Sonic's mixups and avoiding being pressured into throwing out an unsafe option which Sonic can punish. Falcon's aerials bar knee and dair as well as the second hit of his dsmash are safe on shield and Sonic does not want to get dash grabbed or put in the air so Falcon has pressuring options of his own. Always techroll his dthrow and switch up your direction; Falcon's techrolls are incredibly good while his tech getup is average at best.

Falcon's advantage is much better because he has higher damage output and longer combos, and while Sonic has good aerial speed he's floaty and his aerial mobility is terrible, although Falcon's isn't great either. Sonic mainly gains the upper hand on landing punishes and by knocking Falcon far enough offstage that he can gimp you with spring, otherwise you can easily maneuver around it though and Falcon's up b grabs Sonic out of all his aerials easily aside from a well timed bair. When Sonic is offstage you shouldn't go after him unless he's far away because his up b has invincibility at the beginning of it and the spring can gimp you if Sonic manages to jump above you, so instead try to hit his ledge vulnerability with dtilt or bair which may easily gimp him especially at higher percents. If he's far enough offstage that he has to commit to his second jump well before the ledge, chase him down with RAR bair and dair.

Sonic's main kill options are his bair, uair, back throw, usmash and fsmash, the latter two of which you shouldn't really get hit by, although watch out for the deceptive range of Sonic's fsmash although Falcon has deceptive range of his own. Falcon can survive Sonic's back throw particularly well for some reason even though it's a horizontal KO move, and actually kills Sonic earlier with his own back throw as well as uair and bair which are the moves you should mostly be throwing out in this matchup aside from your usual knee/dair traps.

Pros:
- Stronger advantage due to combos and higher damage output and better KO ability
- Faster and more threatening mid range punishing option in dash grab
- Safer neutral options with aerials and a better aerial game

Cons:
- Falcon has more trouble offstage
- Sonic's dash speed is still a lot faster than Falcon's
- Sonic has a lot of mixup options in neutral and a stronger ground game combined with his speed

Stages to ban:
Skyloft, Delfino, Duck Hunt, FD/Omega: large stages with a lot of camping options for Sonic and FD emphasizes Sonic's better ground game

Stages to pick:
Battlefield, Town & City: platforms emphasize Falcon's better aerial give while also relieving pressure that Sonic can create on the ground
Discussion:
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Summary:
Pikachu can completely avoid Falcon's jab and grab in his fair and bair landing lag animations so Falcon will sometimes have to resort to dtilt and dash attack as punishes, but on every other move he can resort to his usual choices or just try to powershield and jab Pikachu's fair and bair. Getting Pikachu in the air is very rewarding since Falcon's aerials straight up beat all of Pikachu's with proper spacing. Falcon also has some character specific knee follow-ups on Pikachu out of a dash grab buffered dthrow between 45-65% with any DI. In addition, Falcon's up b grab disjoint beats all of Pikachu's aerials which is something to consider when recovering, although if you get read or have to recover from far away you should expect to get gimped, but until higher percents it's far from free for Pikachu as long as you mix up your recovery and don't get your jumps eaten by offstage thunderjolts. If Pikachu recovers with side b or stalls with down b you can hit him out of them quite easily and you can also try reading his QA path with dair. QA on stage can be punished if you shield it and thunderjolts are often punishable if you dash and powershield them. Avoid getting grabbed because Pikachu also has high damage combos on Falcon and landing from them can be very difficult. Falcon's killing ability surpasses Pikachu by a large margin with more reliable setups and safer kill moves, but watch out for usmash and fsmash as well as dash attack at higher percents. All in all this matchup is in Pikachu's favor because Falcon dislikes most things Pikachu can do to him, but it isn't nearly as one sided as many make it out to be. Patiently shield Pikachu's attacks and avoid getting grabbed, be smart about recovering and up b usage, use your superior range and hitboxes to your advantage with dtilt and aerials, understand when grab and jab work and when they don't and punish Pikachu accordingly with high damage combos and some early kill setups to overcome the disadvantage as much as you can.

Details:

Pikachu can avoid Falcon's jab and grab during the entirety of his bair and fair landing lag all the way until his IASA frames so it's advised to use dtilt or dash attack for punishing these moves instead, or powershield and jab them. Pikachu is also too low to the ground for grab and jab during the beginning of his dair landing lag, dash attack endlag and QA endlag, but as long as you time your grab or jab properly you can get him easily, just don't try to punish him too early. However Pikachu cannot crouch under either one of them as long as his ears are within Falcon's range. In general you'll find yourself using bair, dair, dtilt and dash attack more in this matchup than most others because you sometimes need to hit lower to the ground than what grab and jab allow, but they are still among your best options, you just have to be aware of when to and when not to use them. Thunderjolt shouldn't be a huge problem since you can easily dash forward, powershield it and dash grab/dash attack punish or uair if Pikachu is in the air. Falcon can also punish Pikachu's QA on shield with dash grab if you have decent reaction and combo Pikachu pretty hard due to dthrow having very little endlag on such a light character. Pikachu has longer strings on Falcon especially at low percents but his damage output is lower making the outcome roughly equal, although just like in the Sheik matchup you should avoid being escorted offstage as much as you can. Pikachu has a far better disadvantage than Falcon with easier time landing and much better recovery, but again much of it is thwarted by Falcon having arguably the best advantage in the game whereas Pikachu only has a good one because of lacking range, aerial mobility and powerful finishers.

Dthrow to knee is a true combo on Pikachu between 15 to 50% with any DI, and about 35% further with any DI except up+away and dthrow to bair works similarly between about 40 to 100%, so a Pikachu who's aware of this can't risk it too much in neutral. Pretty much all of Pikachu's aerials lose to Falcon's equivalents with proper spacing; Falcon's bair and uair trump Pikachu's horizontal options and uair trumps Pikachu's dair although the spacing on that one is quite precise. Falcon's up b grab disjoint also beats all of Pikachu's aerials should he jump offstage to try to edgeguard you, but in this scenario you need to confront him from the side as the grab has no hitbox above Falcon. This means that Pikachu won't get free gimps on Falcon and should never face you from the drop zone as long as you're close enough to the stage to utilize your mid-air jump and/or up b grab. Mix up your recovery as much as you can in general: maneuver your up b high if you think he'll try to gimp you from above, use it normally if you think he'll drop in front of you with an aerial or delay it to try to react to whatever he does, and uair him out of your mid-air jumps or just airdodge if you think he'll use thunderjolt or thunder.

However, when you have to recover from far away a good Pikachu will almost certainly get the gimp, but you usually won't be sent far enough for that before about 100% especially by Pikachu. This is still where you'll probably find yourself dying most of the time since Pikachu lacks kill power otherwise except with hard read moves such as his usmash, fsmash and down b setups which can be avoided with DI. Falcon on the other hand has similar setups from dthrow to knee as mentioned earlier but as early as 50% and avoided only by diagonal DI upwards and away, and Falcon's usual kill moves will get Pikachu early because of his light weight. Backwards hit dsmash is something to consider in this matchup, it hits all the way to the ground, has decent range and is safe on shield despite having slow startup, but bair, uair, dair, fair and bthrow should be your primary options as always. You can also gimp predictable side b and down b choices from Pikachu or try to read his QA destinations with dair. All in all, expect to kill Pikachu much earlier than he kills you, and also expect to get gimped much more often than you'll be gimping him.

Pros:
+ Ability to punish everything Pikachu does on shield, although QA requires decent reaction
+ Aerials and dtilt outrange and beat Pikachu's options
+ Better KO ability and considerably higher weight
+ More dangerous advantage and setups on stage
Cons:
- Falcon's grab and jab are shut down in a couple scenarios
- Falcon's recovery is easily gimpable by Pikachu at higher percents
- Tough disadvantage on all regards
- Pikachu has an easy time landing with QA

Stages to ban:
Battlefield: Pikachu loves platforms and QA ledgecancels, and BF offers those.
Lylat: same reasoning as above.

Stages to pick:
Final Destination, Omegas with straight edges: gives Falcon space to work with, removes platforms from Pikachu, and straight walls give Falcon more recovery options.
Duck Hunt: A lot of space and straight edges here as well, most of the platforms are too high for Pikachu to make good use of.
Town & City: High platforms are good for uair kills, smaller blastzones make recovery slightly easier.
Smashville: Fairly neutral, the platform helps Falcon and his bad recovery more than it helps Pikachu.
Discussion:
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Summary:
Luigi is all about grab combos, and they will hurt Falcon badly at low percents usually getting him up to 40-60% in one string. Jab works for interrupting some of these though, and Luigi has a hard time getting in on a character as fast as Falcon even with the aid of his fireballs which Falcon can just powershield. On the other hand, Falcon will juggle Luigi hard since his uair goes through Luigi's nair when properly spaced and Luigi is a very floaty character. Luigi's recovery should get gimped by dair nearly every time if he resorts to side b, and if he goes extremely low with it you can resort to punishing his up b or down b when he has to use those. Luigi can gimp Falcon as well with down b if Falcon has to recover from far away losing his recovery mixup options, otherwise it shouldn't happen much. Luigi also likes to kill vertically which Falcon can survive very well while dying early vertically himself, which now with the uair nerf Falcon unfortunately doesn't have any safe options for so he can't really take advantage of it without hard Raptor Boost or usmash reads. The key to this matchup is taking advantage of Falcon's better neutral and avoiding Luigi's grab. The matchup is considered approximately even.

Pros:
+ Better neutral game and speed
+ Easier time offstage
+ Uair beats Luigi's nair and Luigi gets juggled hard

Cons:
- Tough disadvantage at low percents
- Falcon loses CQC because of Luigi's frame 2 jab
- Luigi's KO options are more reliable

Stages to pick:
Battlefield: Platforms can break Luigi's dthrow setups and the high ceiling makes killing for Luigi harder
Smashville: Has FD ceiling but is horizontally smaller benefitting Falcon's horizontal KO power
Omega (with straight ledges): Walls let Falcon chase Luigi's side b as deep as he wants to since he can walljump back, also FD/Omega in general is good for Falcon

Stages to ban:
Halberd: Low ceiling gives Luigi much earlier kills out of his dthrow
Town & City: Same as above to a lesser extent
Discussion:
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Summary:
Falcon vs Rosalina matchup completely revolves around how well you can get red of Luma, and Falcon can do this very well. Rapid Jab finisher sends Luma across the stage and DA works for shorter distances, and it doesn't really matter if you get punished for it as long as you get rid of Luma. When Luma is around though, Rosalina can wall Falcon out quite well. The real downfall here is how well Rosalina can edgeguard and gimp Falcon, although you can meteor or punish her recovery pretty easily as well. Falcon's killing setups are easy and deadly on Rosalina once Luma is gone, in fact you should be killing her at 50-80% more often than anywhere else, but usually you first have to get rid of Luma and then chase her down. Dash grab down throw to knee is guaranteed regardless of DI between around 45-65%. It's hard to call this matchup anything but even.

Pros:
- Getting rid of Luma is relatively easy
- Kill setups work well vs Rosalina, and because of that you don't need to deal that much % per stock
- Rosalina has a lot of trouble vs Falcon's juggles

Cons:
- Falcon gets gimped pretty hard here
- Playing neutral around Luma can be difficult
- Rosalina also juggles Falcon easily when given the chance

Stages to ban:
FD/Omega: Rosalina can get too much stage control without platforms around
Halberd: Just because of Rosalina's uair and usmash

Stages to pick:
Battlefield: Platforms help Falcon around Rosalina's neutral
Smashville: Same as above
Delfino: Falcon moves around this stage better than Rosalina and suffers less for being forced to move
Discussion:
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Summary:
Both characters have a very strong punish game and good mobility, but in comparison to Falcon ZSS' has a better recovery and an easier time getting out of disadvantage with her flip jump. She has kill confirms out of grab, nair, down smash and paralyzer so watch out for being hit by any of those at around 40-80%, although down smash near the ledge is always dangerous and her grab will guarantee an uair at virtually any percent. ZSS' only weakness in this matchup is her slow grab which you must abuse and punish in the neutral, while trying to anticipate and powershield her falling shorthop aerials. Paralyzer can be punished if powershielded very close to her, so stay in mid range but watch out for her dash grab as well. Offstage she can drop off and backwards flip kick meteor Falcon's recovery if you have to recover low or from far away, so try to mix it up as much as you can. Her occasional high flip jump recovery should be punished by back air. Abuse shield in this matchup while outgrabbing her and you should do well enough. Slight disadvantage for Falcon.

Pros:

- Falcon outlives ZSS unless he gets grabbed at a bad time or gimped
- Falcon can punish ZSS' missed grabs among other things harder than most characters
- Playing midrange is a bit easier because her grab is slow

Cons:

- Getting in can be difficult for Falcon
- Offstage is very dangerous for Falcon whereas ZSS usually gets back for free
- ZSS is one of few characters that can match or outdo Falcon's mobility and kill potential

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: This is a must as ZSS can kill with dthrow -> uair -> uair -> up b before the last hit of up b even comes out.
- Delfino: Similar to above but only during transformations, however to a much more ridiculous extent.
- Town & City: Low ceiling as well, just low enough that ZSS' up b combo will kill at low percents if done optimally.

Stages to pick:
- Lylat: ZSS generally hates the tilting with her aerials and paralyzer, also is big enough to prevent her up b cheese.
- FD/Omega: Has a lot of space and prevents ZSS from getting early kills off the top.
- Battlefield: Her up b combos won't kill off the top here ever if you have proper DI and don't get grabbed on a platform.
Discussion:
Start
End

Summary:
A very volatile matchup where both characters can do big damage to each other once they get in and where it's tough for both to recover back to the stage. Falcon can down tilt or down air meteor Fox's recovery depending on which one he opts for, and Fox can down smash Falcon's ledgegrab fairly easily so delay your up b whenever you see him charging it. Abuse shield in this matchup especially when you're at kill percents, as even if Fox gets a grab there's nothing threatening he can get directly off of it. On the other hand from low percents Falcon can chain together as many as three neutral airs on Fox, and although not guaranteed, down throw to knee is viable in this matchup because of how light Fox is. Falcon has a stronger and safer aerial game especially in the neutral, and after the patch you can go for falling up air on shield to jab which can't be shieldgrabbed to send Fox offstage, and eventually mix it up into grab and of course knee if Fox fails to shield the hit. A slight advantage for Falcon.

Pros:

- Stronger and safer aerial game
- No need to be particularly afraid of grabs
- Similar damage output with better survivability

Cons:
- Weaker ground game, although dash grab and dash attack are always good
- Recovery can be tough against Fox's down smash

Stages to ban:
Generally anything with a low ceiling due to Fox's up smash and up air

Stages to pick:
Pretty much anything else, especially Battlefield, Dreamland and Smashville due to platforms
 
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lazerultra2

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Hi Triforze, this is an excellent initiative regarding the other Falcon MU thread.
Saddly, I do not have a great experience with de DDK MU. But I will participate actively when it will be Yoshi's turn.
 

Silvalfo

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Best thread ever. I'll try to be as active as possible here, even if it's by entering stealth mode and reading everything for MUs I can't debate.

Regarding Diddy:
He's a threat, but not one of our worst MUs (even before the nerf).

Falcon must be really careful when spacing with aerials, as Diddy's Fair beats our entire aerial moveset. It's also very hard to shieldgrab him even when his aerials aren't correctly spaced, as his landing lag animations (fair and bair mostly) are pretty low on height. On the monkey's hand, he can shieldgrab most of our moveset and dthrow->everything. When we're at mid~low percents, it's possible for diddy to grab us near the ledge with his back faced to the ledge and dthrow->dair, scoring a serious, demoralizing KO. His ftilt is a pain to falcon's lack of reach and his dtilt can lead to follow-ups at an obscenely long percent range. Try not to spotdodge his fsmash, it's too risky.

Many DDKs, when launched medium~high offstage, tend to sideB to lessen their recovery issues. When read, this move is a free opportunity for our bair to come into action. Bair is also the preferred choice when trying to hit him in the middle of his upB trajectory.
As with basically everything, we can seriously rek him after a dthrow, but be aware that if he fastfalls and airdodges our uair, he can hit back with his own blasted frame 3 uair. I usually follow dthrow with a dash attack at 0%. When shielded, his fsmash has exactly the needed amount of cooldown for a good dashgrab retaliation.

That's what I have for today, other than a lot of hype and optimism for this thread.
 
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Crispy_

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Diddy has some intensely good neutral/middle stage play. I think as a Falcon it's best to get Diddy off the stage as much as possible. Bair and STOMP are great, and if you're feeling spicy and can chuck out a Knee. His recovery is pretty predictable so it's not hard to kill him when he's recovering.
 

RedBeefBaron

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I'm still learning about Falcon myself but falcon will do better vs Diddy the more he can deal with a few main issues. This is gonna be mostly edited copy and paste from other matchup threads.

1. Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. You need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. And Diddy gets a lot of reward for getting in. So use your superior mobility to either catch or destroy the banana on aggressive plucks you can punish and get in Diddy's face on patient plucks to stop these mixups before they can be set up.

As far as taking the banana away goes, air speed is good but foot speed trumps it. Because a foot speed character can just sprint across the ground as far as he needs to before jumping and z-catching the peel if its in the air. Additionally "z-scooping," or z-catching an item that is on the ground, is now a thing. Simply running up as close to a grounded banana as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z-scoop is a fast, lagless way to pick peels up off the ground. But it's going to be a bad idea if you have slower foot speed than Diddy, because again, Diddy's entire playstyle now revolves around using bananas to force the opponent into situations where he has the advantage. He will use grounded bananas as lures and you will get faired if he catches you going for this.

Faster characters like Fox, Pikachu, Falcon, Sonic and such are better at taking bananas from Diddy off the aggressive pluck and off the ground for this reason. Someone like Falco probably cannot handle this situation like that. A Diddy who knows how to get the most off of every banana and setup as many times as he can will actually force an approach himself. Which he can also use to lure people into hits, so watch that too. But use your mobility to shut down the setup by quickly destroying the banana or taking it away as often as possible.

2. Figure out how to break away at disadvantage. Diddy needs big followups now since the KB and damage nerfs. Breaking combos and reducing follow up damage is major when fighting Diddy.

3. Use your superior kill power to your advantage. Since the patch, Smash 4 Diddy's Achilles heel is the fact that he has terrible kill power outside of hard reads and perfect banana setups. He has reasonable moves for this though, in his F-smash which is now only a little bit more unsafe, and the second hit of his D-smash which is actually quite powerful. With customs on rocketbarrel attack is a risky yet brutal coin flip mixup that will destroy people early if Diddy can bait an air dodge, but Diddy will get hit if he misses.

If you can avoid these three things and draw stocks out for as far as you can and use your superior kill power to close stocks before Diddy lands his kill you will have a much easier time.

4. Many characters can gimp Diddy fairly easily if he has to charge the barrels because he is too low to recover with monkey flip; the hard part is actually forcing Diddy to recover low. If you can't figure out a way to block the monkey flip and force Diddy to charge barrels you may have a hard time edgeguarding. Monkey flip is fast and unpredictable, and peanut cancel adds to Diddy's recovery mixups and his mobility in general, so this will probably be difficult.
 
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Trifroze

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Do you guys also want to talk about MU with customs?
Yeah, that's preferred. We don't really have any particularly useful ones, but if Diddy does then do bring them out. Anyway, my outlook on the matchup:

With the new patch Diddy became average at killing, uair takes more than 200% to kill us and fair takes 150% to kill us offstage. I used to find myself dying to those two moves the most before I could take down Diddy's stock, so it'll be interesting to see how much this changes the matchup. His killpower got hit really hard, but he is otherwise the same with possibly a slightly better ability to combo at earlier %s, although I think this is unconfirmed as his hitstun may have suffered as well. Regardless, to Falcon this would still be a good deal because he'd be putting us to rage faster without having any safe options to remove our stock. Still, with his considerably decreased damage output from uair and fair I doubt he'd rack on damage any faster even with increased combo potential. In any case, we can make a lot more mistakes and take a lot more risks against Diddy now, and Falcon is all about that. Fsmash and near-ledge bthrow will probably be his new main kill options, but compared to uair and fair these are easy to avoid by playing safe. His bair is about as strong as the current fair. Still, Diddy's aerials can become scary if you let him rage for long enough.

Like previously said neutral is hard against Diddy because of his superior range and hitboxes thanks to fair, the threat of banana and his monkeyflip mixups. Depending on the distance, against monkeyflip you can pivot grab, spotdodge + punish or roll backwards + grab/jab out of reaction and in the case of a grab, convert it to about 30%. Jab is also one move Falcon should use a lot in close and mid range to cover yourself as well as to punish Diddy for things your grab won't work against. He's going to look for any opportunities to get a grab and jab will keep him out and interrupt him pretty well. In particular I've found that staying in midrange is the best for this matchup. It's just enough that none of his aerials will reach you, and you can punish his landings with a dash attack or just dash grab him without giving him time to react to it. When he has a banana, walking and shielding can be useful considering how long it takes for Falcon to get his shield out from a dash, however I think being too afraid of the banana will get you nowhere and you should look for opportunities to get in just as he's looking for opportunities to punish you for making the wrong decision. Falcon's defensive game is bad, and when you get scared and stop playing Falcon's game you start doing badly. Of course, avoid obvious approaches and needless commitment when he has a banana as it's a quick and strong punish. If you're in long range you can occasionally bait him with your speed such as extended dash dancing, and the distance is long enough that you can get your shield out from a dash if he does throw the banana at you. One important thing to remember is to stay in on Diddy once you get there and prevent him from setting up another banana. In the beginning of the match, you can run straight into Diddy and usually punish him if he goes for the banana.

Both characters are trying to grab each other in this MU, Diddy with the aid of a banana and Falcon with the aid of his speed. Especially after the patch, I would say getting grabbed by Falcon is more lethal than getting grabbed by Diddy. If he grabs you at low percents, remember to always DI away and then DI up and away to get out of uair combos. Avoid airdodging and spam your own uair to challenge his possible fair follow-ups, it often works. When you grab him at low percents, it's particularly important not to overextend yourself, as if you end up above him or go for a follow-up that isn't guaranteed, uair will get you and put you into the bad position instead of him. Thus, avoid full hop uairs at low percents. At 0% until about 30% you should be going for dthrow -> shorthop uair and then shield and grab him if he challenges you, or full hop and uair him again if he jumps. You can condition him between the two as with any character, but here it's particularly important to not ever end up above Diddy after your follow-ups. After about 30% you can start going for full hop uair -> uair and after 50% full hop uair -> second jump uair. As with all Falcon's combos it's DI dependent; you're guaranteed to get something, but you'll need to read the DI to get the most out of it, while uairs are always the safe and practical bnb option. At low percents you can mix fthrow, nair and dash attack into these combos as well, such as fthrow -> dash attack -> shorthop uair -> shield/fullhop uair or dthrow -> full hop nair -> (second jump) uair. With bad or no DI you can get 40% combos with those combinations, but that's general Falcon basics that we shouldn't get into here.

Diddy has an easier time landing than Falcon does because of monkeyflip but a harder time recovering because of Falcon's dair having such a great hitbox and Diddy having his barrel problems if he needs to resort to up b. When Diddy is landing get ready to read a monkeyflip to either side and punish him for it. The same applies when he's offstage, if he's far away you can safely jump in the way with your aerials (mainly bair and dair), but if he's close to the stage he might be going for a flipkick in which case retreat and punish with an option of your choice, although dair works too if you're feeling ballsy. When he has to use up b, get ready to jump in the way with Knee (because of its lingering hitbox), nair or bair to make him sink down. Be aware that he can maneuver his up b around you and land on the stage as well, and again condition him between the two and punish accordingly. Watch out for the barrel explosion if you read his landing on stage though as it can deal a lot of damage and even KO at higher percents. When recovering yourself, watch out for drop zone fair. Cover your second jump with uair and wiggle your way past him with up b or delay it so that you can grab him with it if he tries to hit you offstage. You usually have some room to delay your recovery so most of the time you're fine. Mainly try to recover low, Diddy doesn't seem to like to go deep very much and uair is better at covering your recovery than anything else Falcon has. Diddy's dtilt can be annoying on the ledge though so watch out for that.

Overall I never felt this was outright bad for Falcon, but definitely a disadvantage. Diddy is fundamentally still the same character he was before the patch, just less of a threat at higher percents now. I'd drop this a -1 rating for Falcon.
 

InBOUNDHD

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I'm still learning about Falcon myself but falcon will do better vs Diddy the more he can deal with a few main issues. This is gonna be mostly edited copy and paste from other matchup threads.

1. Since the damage and KB nerfs Diddy needs to get in cleanly many more times than before and the banana is how he does this. You need to be able to stop Diddy from setting up by either patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards the opponent from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. If you can stop Diddy from setting this up successfully enough he will not get the damage output he now needs.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, or quickly jumping and destroying it, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. And Diddy gets a lot of reward for getting in. So use your superior mobility to either catch or destroy the banana on aggressive plucks you can punish and get in Diddy's face on patient plucks to stop these mixups before they can be set up.

As far as taking the banana away goes, air speed is good but foot speed trumps it. Because a foot speed character can just sprint across the ground as far as he needs to before jumping and z-catching the peel if its in the air. Additionally "z-scooping," or z-catching an item that is on the ground, is now a thing. Simply running up as close to a grounded banana as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z-scoop is a fast, lagless way to pick peels up off the ground. But it's going to be a bad idea if you have slower foot speed than Diddy, because again, Diddy's entire playstyle now revolves around using bananas to force the opponent into situations where he has the advantage. He will use grounded bananas as lures and you will get faired if he catches you going for this.

Faster characters like Fox, Pikachu, Falcon, Sonic and such are better at taking bananas from Diddy off the aggressive pluck and off the ground for this reason. Someone like Falco probably cannot handle this situation like that. A Diddy who knows how to get the most off of every banana and setup as many times as he can will actually force an approach himself. Which he can also use to lure people into hits, so watch that too. But use your mobility to shut down the setup by quickly destroying the banana or taking it away as often as possible.

2. Figure out how to break away at disadvantage. Diddy needs big followups now since the KB and damage nerfs. Breaking combos and reducing follow up damage is major when fighting Diddy.

3. Use your superior kill power to your advantage. Since the patch, Smash 4 Diddy's Achilles heel is the fact that he has terrible kill power outside of hard reads and perfect banana setups. He has reasonable moves for this though, in his F-smash which is now only a little bit more unsafe, and the second hit of his D-smash which is actually quite powerful. With customs on rocketbarrel attack is a risky yet brutal coin flip mixup that will destroy people early if Diddy can bait an air dodge, but Diddy will get hit if he misses.

If you can avoid these three things and draw stocks out for as far as you can and use your superior kill power to close stocks before Diddy lands his kill you will have a much easier time.

4. Many characters can gimp Diddy fairly easily if he has to charge the barrels because he is too low to recover with monkey flip; the hard part is actually forcing Diddy to recover low. If you can't figure out a way to block the monkey flip and force Diddy to charge barrels you may have a hard time edgeguarding. Monkey flip is fast and unpredictable, and peanut cancel adds to Diddy's recovery mixups and his mobility in general, so this will probably be difficult.
Pretty much this. Reading this actually made me more open to what i need to work on as a diddy main (banana setups, banana traps, etc) so props to Baron. And as to customs, Diddy so far doesn't have a really overpowered custom move, but the rocket barrel attack custom can be deadly.
 

teluoborg

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Neutral isn't bad against Diddy ffs, he can't pull out a banana in the neutral because you either punish him for it steal/kill his banana or even both at the same time (Uair very early during Diddy's down B animation and you'll hit both Diddy and the naner). Even if he presses down B right at the start of the match you can run up to him and Uair him before he can catch his banana.

Any hitbox will make a thrown banana disappear, even jab. Diddy might not always throw the banana high enough for jab to connect but that's always nice when it happens.

Then what ? Don't get grabbed (srsly I see so many people give Diddy free grabs in every video/stream, it's like people never learned from fighting Brawl IC/DDD/Falco) and now you've trumped Diddy's best tools in the neutral, the rest is just a spacing war that you can win with your superior mobility.

TL;DR : stay just outside of Diddy's dash grab range, punish every attempt to pull out a banana. Congratulations, you have become the bane of Diddies all around the world.
 

Trifroze

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Neutral isn't bad against Diddy ffs, he can't pull out a banana in the neutral because you either punish him for it steal/kill his banana or even both at the same time (Uair very early during Diddy's down B animation and you'll hit both Diddy and the naner). Even if he presses down B right at the start of the match you can run up to him and Uair him before he can catch his banana.

Any hitbox will make a thrown banana disappear, even jab. Diddy might not always throw the banana high enough for jab to connect but that's always nice when it happens.

Then what ? Don't get grabbed (srsly I see so many people give Diddy free grabs in every video/stream, it's like people never learned from fighting Brawl IC/DDD/Falco) and now you've trumped Diddy's best tools in the neutral, the rest is just a spacing war that you can win with your superior mobility.

TL;DR : stay just outside of Diddy's dash grab range, punish every attempt to pull out a banana. Congratulations, you have become the bane of Diddies all around the world.
The problem is when Diddy already has the banana having pulled it out when you were unable to punish him for it. Sometimes he will have it, sometimes not, but when he does neutral is undeniably difficult versus Diddy. Even when he doesn't have one, his aerial game is superior, although Falcon has the advantage on the ground, resulting in a relatively even neutral game or a slight advantage for Falcon at most.

You are however right that players let Diddy pull out a lot of bananas for free, which I agree Falcon should be good at punishing. That only solves a part of the problem though.
 

teluoborg

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If Diddy has a banana in hand then his aerial game suffers because he has the choice between throwing the banana (good follow up potential but narrow hitbox) and using side B (fast and good mixup potential but very telegraphed). Of course his ground game gets better which means you have to play very defensive until he throws his banana.
 

Trifroze

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If Diddy has a banana in hand then his aerial game suffers because he has the choice between throwing the banana (good follow up potential but narrow hitbox) and using side B (fast and good mixup potential but very telegraphed). Of course his ground game gets better which means you have to play very defensive until he throws his banana.
Falcon's defensive game on the other hand is arguably his biggest weakness. He has a great jab for interrupting things and a good bair for walling out the more obvious approaches but aside from that all he can do is shield and run around, and doing all of that in mid range when Diddy has a banana can be easily punished by a combination of the banana and monkeyflip. In long range on the other hand Diddy has less reason to approach than Falcon does unless perhaps Falcon has a clear lead, peanuts aren't a very threatening projectile after all aside from teasing linear recoveries offstage.

Regardless, I've been contemplating whether it really is better to be patient and play defensive when Diddy has a banana or instead rush into mid range and try to get Diddy before he gets you, using risky offense as your defense, as Falcon usually thrives from that more than anything. I'll get the fact out of the way that this may largely come down to playstyle and it's usually better to switch between patience and pressure, but I think trying to put the pressure on Diddy with some risk instead of taking it on Falcon with his limited defensive options would work better. Falcon still has the speed advantage, while Diddy trades his aerial options for an amazing punish game, so Falcon should use approaches that take advantage of this transition of Diddy's strengths.

Relatively safe approach examples would be:
- Dash into shield and roll or dash back / extended dash dancing, he may throw the banana at you and with good reaction you may be able to take it (this is still pretty defensive in terms of Falcon's options)
- Dashing into Diddy's face with shield or spotdodge as bait and punish accordingly, probably the safest option and you should be able to retreat if Diddy does nothing
- Falling uair into his shield which is safe and can also be covered by jab if he throws his banana or tries to punish
- RAR bair into his shield which is safe
- Crossup bair
- RAR crossup nair/uair into shield, grab or jab
- Empty hop into grab or jab

The list goes on, and some of those cover a couple different things Diddy can do. As said they all involve risk but can be conditioned in pairs, like falling aerials into his shield vs empty hops into grab or jab. Most importantly dash attack and dash grab should be left alone at least at first because of banana and Diddy's improved ground game as you mentioned.
 

LuLLo

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Punishing him for using side-b is also a very important thing, too many people let Diddy get away with. If he does it close up you can jab him out of it and you can roll back to punish the landing frames with jab/ftilt/dtilt(requires good timing). When he does the Diddy kick on shield, you an get a free fsmash/ftilt/dtilt/jab/dash attack or even a dashgrab if the space allows you to. Dash attack is preferable though, since it sets him up for your aerials and is your 100% punish option, the rest of your moves require the right space and time. Punish the kick, its laggy and pretty easy to see.

Also, can anyone tell me if Falcon's up-B grab frames beat his side-B grab frames? Cause that would be awesome.
Thats my two cents, got nothing more to say that's already been said.
 

redcometchar

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Does falcon have an answer to down tilt in neutral? Unless i get a hard read diddy seems to be able to throw those out whenever he wants. Also is falling up air/nair really safe on shield?
 

teluoborg

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No, Nair isn't safe on shield except maybe if you time the second hit right before landing with perfect spacing.
Same with Uair : it requires perfect spacing and a very fast landing to be somewhat safe.

Falcon's Dtilt outrange Diddy's Dtilt if I'm not mistaken.
 

Trifroze

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No, Nair isn't safe on shield except maybe if you time the second hit right before landing with perfect spacing.
Same with Uair : it requires perfect spacing and a very fast landing to be somewhat safe.

Falcon's Dtilt outrange Diddy's Dtilt if I'm not mistaken.
Nair probably isn't (could be though, I don't use first hit nair much), but in this scenario uair and bair definitely should be if you hit with the stronger hitbox of both. Banana throw won't get you after that, but at least frame 1-3 jabs usually will.

On a related note bair is easily safe on taller characters' shields because you can use it high enough to AC it, and falling uair is easily safe because you can space it from much further away. You can also use straight up shorthop uair on characters taller than Marth and hit them, makes me wish the hitbox started a little lower so this would be viable on so many more matchups.
 
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0mart

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So I think that you guys have discussed pretty much the neutral. I will focus on the gimps or how to prevent him from getting back to the stage:

- if he uses Side-B above the height of the stage you can Uair.
- if he uses Side-B more or less at the height of the stage, you can actually Dair him( Diddy can´t react after Side-Bing or he will trigger the monkey kick.
- if he uses Side-B but he is still far and has his jump you can intercept him with a soft knee( I find this option more optimal than any other because this has almost no knockback but will stun him and he won´t have time to charge another Up-B.

For ledge trapping he doesn´t actually has ´´great´´ options from the ledge because you can punish almost every option with jabs. except for roll and jump that would be better to punish with Side B(HYESZ if you react accordingly you can land a free Side B as a punish from the Ledgeroll) and U-air respectively.


I wanted to talk about the Neutral but I think that the neutral is pretty much simple.

- Stay in mid range (out of his Fair range) so you can react and pnuish accordingly.
- Respect him if he has the banana in hand.
- JUGGLE HIS ASS OFF (IMPORTANT)... Diddy doesn´t have the tools to land to the ground against falcon.
 

redcometchar

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I am starting to believe this matchup might be better than we thought for falcon. I am under the impression that unless diddy has a bannana falcon wins neutral, and although diddy racks damage a little easier than falcon he struggles to claim the stock, something falcon has no trouble with.
 

0mart

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I am starting to believe this matchup might be better than we thought for falcon. I am under the impression that unless diddy has a bannana falcon wins neutral, and although diddy racks damage a little easier than falcon he struggles to claim the stock, something falcon has no trouble with.
Actually... I think that even before the patch. they had the same amount of struggle to rack up %... because falcon can convert a Grab into 20-30% and a juggling position which is a big thing in this matchup because Diddy has issues landing on the ground against Falcon. now with the 1.0.6 it´s even more difficult for Diddy´s to rack up %... and actually it´s not that easy to grab a mobile Falcon. Falcons just have to know how to stay in mid-range on neutral and go in when is in the offensive.
 

Trifroze

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I would still refrain from calling this matchup even. Diddy has a 3 frame uair that scoops below him while Falcon doesn't have any reasonable options to break out of combos from blow, his fastest aerial being a 6 frame uair that hits from the front to the upper back. This means Falcon can't afford to make as many mistakes while in advantage while Diddy gets away more easily and can pull off sloppier strings/combos. This partially touches what I said about avoiding full hop uairs on Diddy if he's at low percents, because you'll end up either above or in front of him and eat a quick uair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlocvevRsw

Just found this video, not much to learn versus Diddy but at 3:30 you can see what I'm talking about with Sheik completely turning the situation against Falcon because of a mispaced uair. Falcon can't do this to Diddy quite as easily as the likes of Diddy or Sheik can to him because his uair is a bit slower, those 3 frames make a noticeable difference in many scenarios.

On a related note, Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, ZSS or Yoshi for next?
 
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teluoborg

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I would still refrain from calling this matchup even. Diddy has a 3 frame uair that scoops below him while Falcon doesn't have any reasonable options to break out of combos from blow, his fastest aerial being a 6 frame uair that hits from the front to the upper back. This means Falcon can't afford to make as many mistakes while in advantage while Diddy gets away more easily and can pull off sloppier strings/combos. This partially touches what I said about avoiding full hop uairs on Diddy if he's at low percents, because you'll end up either above or in front of him and eat a quick uair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqlocvevRsw

Just found this video, not much to learn versus Diddy but at 3:30 you can see what I'm talking about with Sheik completely turning the situation against Falcon because of a mispaced uair. Falcon can't do this to Diddy quite as easily as the likes of Diddy or Sheik can to him because his uair is a bit slower, those 3 frames make a noticeable difference in many scenarios.

On a related note, Sheik, Sonic, Pikachu, ZSS or Yoshi for next?
saying it isn't neutral because you have to frame trap with Uairs at low percents instead of chaining them brainlessly seems a little extreme.

It is well known that every character with a fast aerial (Diddy, Sheik, Ness, Luigi) will have the frame advantage on you out of your first Uairs, so what ? If that's their only option to get out of the juggle and they know it then just do like me : Dthrow - SH Uair - fast fall - shield their combo breaker - shieldgrab and Dthrow Uair again.

So yeah, just because you can't spam Uair like Diddy can doesn't mean you don't have options to juggle him like he can.
 

Trifroze

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If that's their only option to get out of the juggle and they know it then just do like me : Dthrow - SH Uair - fast fall - shield their combo breaker - shieldgrab and Dthrow Uair again.
That's pretty much what I said in an earlier post though.

So yeah, just because you can't spam Uair like Diddy can doesn't mean you don't have options to juggle him like he can.
It's not about brainlessness, it's about the fact that a 3 frame uair that hits below you leaves you open for follow-ups for a lesser time than an airdodge or jump aka Falcon's best options once you're out of hitstun. Diddy can frametrap you more effectively once the window for true combos is over while you have to make the read whether they spam their aerial or not in those situations.
 

teluoborg

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I get it that Diddy can interrupt juggles if you space yourself poorly, but his Uair is nowhere better than ours after the patch. His is faster, but ours is bigger, stronger and coupled to a better mobility.

Morale of the story : don't space yourself poorly.

And you don't have to make a read : it's a 50-50 so when you get in position they have the choice between using the combo breaker or get hit. They can mix up, gamble that you won't Uair and wait but if they do it more than once it's free Uairs for you.

Edit : for the future of the sticky : how about we make it into the directory to each character specific thread ?
 
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Killtrox

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I haven't seen this mentioned, but it has worked for me a few times:

If the Diddy opens with banana, dash-grab (you will likely slide to the edge of the stage), pummel until release, utilt. It's one of the easiest gimps I've been able to get somewhat consistently.
 

Trifroze

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I get it that Diddy can interrupt juggles if you space yourself poorly, but his Uair is nowhere better than ours after the patch. His is faster, but ours is bigger, stronger and coupled to a better mobility.

Morale of the story : don't space yourself poorly.

And you don't have to make a read : it's a 50-50 so when you get in position they have the choice between using the combo breaker or get hit. They can mix up, gamble that you won't Uair and wait but if they do it more than once it's free Uairs for you.

Edit : for the future of the sticky : how about we make it into the directory to each character specific thread ?
Poor spacing has nothing to do with I'm talking about though. It's the fact that Diddy gets guaranteed follow-ups in more situations than we do because our fastest aerial is slower than his with a less optimal hitbox for defensive use as it doesn't hit below like his. We have to make the read between his uair, airdodge and jump while he has 3 extra frames to only have to make a read between airdodge and jump. Your spacing doesn't matter, it's a fundamental difference in our options and his. If we bait his uair combo breaker out, he might instead jump and escape completely. It's a 50-50 for us too, and that's why Diddy's disadvantage is better than Falcon's. Falcon's advantage is better on the other hand when he does get the guaranteed hits in because of far superior damage output and the threat of his KO power, but that's a different side of the matchup.

Not sure if I mentioned this already but without a banana neutral vs Diddy isn't in our favor, it's about even in my opinion. His fair is amazing for walling things out and comes out quick; nothing we have beats it although dash attack, bair and uair trade at least. Diddy's general speed isn't bad either, his ftilt outranges our ground options and dtilt is an amazing poke. When Diddy gets the banana neutral becomes an advantage for him, but perhaps not a huge one if handled correctly like we went through earlier.

Not so sure whether to give this a 0 or -1 rating though after the nerf on Diddy. Haven't played versus one in a tournament after the patch.

And yeah, the other topic works for that. Maybe we should try to get @victra♥ to unsticky the old MU thread and sticky this one though, and/or change the old topic's title to "matchup topic directory" or something since that's what it basically is.

I haven't seen this mentioned, but it has worked for me a few times:

If the Diddy opens with banana, dash-grab (you will likely slide to the edge of the stage), pummel until release, utilt. It's one of the easiest gimps I've been able to get somewhat consistently.
That could definitely work as a gimmick, if nothing else it puts him in a bad situation and if the utilt doesn't hit you might be able to punish some other way since he'll most likely jump and monkeyflip.
 
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Killtrox

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That could definitely work as a gimmick, if nothing else it puts him in a bad situation and if the utilt doesn't hit you might be able to punish some other way since he'll most likely jump and monkeyflip.
I just played for the first time post-patch and Captain Falcon now slides off the stage instead of stopping at the edge, so this isn't an option anymore.
 

teluoborg

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I just played for the first time post-patch and Captain Falcon now slides off the stage instead of stopping at the edge, so this isn't an option anymore.
That's only if you're pummeling at the moment you reach the ledge, and it was there before the patch. Just wait before pummeling.
 

Trifroze

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Well I think we're about done with Diddy and I'd summarize it in the following way:

Summary:
Both Falcon and Diddy have to respect each others' grab game, with Falcon being aided by his speed and Diddy having bananas to set up grabs. Stay in mid range outside of Diddy's aerials and use Falcon's speed to try to prevent and punish Diddy's banana pulls, and if he manages to do it, play much safer. Diddy combos Falcon more at low percents but Falcon has a higher damage output. Try to force Diddy to recover low whenever he's offstage and always attempt to gimp his up b or read and punish his side b. Falcon KOs Diddy easier than vice-versa after the patch. The matchup is considered even for now, with a chance for slight disadvantage because of the uncertainty of the practical effect of Diddy's nerfs.

Details:

Neutral is roughly even as long as you don't let Diddy get a banana out. Falcon is good at preventing and punishing this along with Diddy's many other options with his greater speed as long as you stay in mid range, just outside the range of Diddy's troublesome fair but close enough to punish things like dtilt. If he does get the banana out, he trades the ability to use his aerials for a quick and strong punish game. Hence you should avoid using dashgrab or dash attack unless you're sure you'll catch him off guard because otherwise he'll punish them with about 20% of damage. Play safe and approach with shield or spotdodge to bait him, or shorthop aerials since banana throw isn't fast enough to punish the likes of well-spaced uair or bair into shield. Cover yourself with your jab to prevent Diddy from throwing the banana at you or grabbing you whenever you can, it's an especially great tool in this matchup. Falcon can also straight up run over the banana without tripping during the his (long) initial dash animation. You can spotdodge or roll backwards against monkeyflip out of reaction and punish with dash attack or grab, or you can challenge it with uair or utilt.

Falcon's disadvantage is a bit worse than Diddy's because of his greater lack of defensive aerial options and his size and weight, but a stronger advantage because of superior speed on the ground and in the air, higher damage output and greater KO power. Diddy is one of those characters in disadvantage who can convert an opponent's bad spacing into his own advantage with his uair, so try to not end up above him after your uair follow-ups which can happen at low percents if you unnecessarily do them out of a fullhop.

One very important part is to always try to read Diddy's monkeyflip whether he's above you or offstage and challenge it with uair/dair or punish it with bair and in general try to scare him into recovering low. You can then intercept his up b with many of Falcon's lingering aerials such as the soft knee, bair or nair. Try not to let him angle his recovery past you onto the stage though. You can option-select this by dropping down with bair when he uses his up b, second jump back to the stage and punish him if he lands there. Falcon doesn't have to fear Diddy too much when recovering as long as you recover low, but watch out for drop zone fair and his dtilt on the 2 frame ledge vulnerability, which can get quite annoying at its worst.

Pros:
- Greater speed and lesser landing lag on aerials makes Falcon's ability to punish Diddy greater than vice-versa
- Better ability to intercept and prevent Diddy's bananas than most characters
- Higher damage output
- Stronger and safer KO moves

Cons:
- Banana turns the punish game around; Falcon has to slow his game down and play more safe with less reward
- Despite lesser damage output, Diddy has more guaranteed follow-ups out of a grab especially with Falcon's weight and gravity
- In addition, slower aerials and the lack of below-hitting ones leave Falcon with less options to free himself from combos

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: uthrow to uair is still somewhat of a KO option for Diddy while Falcon likes to kill horizontally
- Town & City: same as above, but to a lesser extent

Stages to pick:
- Duck Hunt: straight walls aid Falcon's recovery, a lot of space to move around in, large blastzones emphasize Diddy's lack of relative kill power
- Battlefield: high ceiling, platforms help Falcon arguably more than Diddy, you can meteor through the stage near the ledges
- Omegas with straight walls: all-around decent for Falcon, with a wall jump option when recovering

Let's do Yoshi next since his name has appeared here a couple times; while Sheik and Pikachu are critical matchups for Falcon I think there's also less to discuss with them than with the likes of Yoshi, ZSS, Sonic, Ness or Rosalina. Everyone seems to have a different opinion whether these MUs are against us, even or in our favor, so simply out of interest I'd like some light to be shed on that. I'll be inviting the Yoshi boards over now.
 
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Silvalfo

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Yoshi's a fun MU imo. If you're not careful, his jabs and dtilt simply won't let you do stuff in CQC range. Our own dtilt outranges jab, but is far slower and unsafe.
Walk and PS his egg toss. PS always works, but if he tries to read a jump and throws the egg upwards, you can dashgrab on reaction iirc.

Yoshi has quite a load of tools to mess your recovery up. Dair reks low recoveries 99.6% of the time, nair scoops through our ledge vulnerability frame and bair has crazy range and sends Falcon in a pretty terrible angle for his recovery. Our extended hurtbox while upBing is pretty bad in this MU.

For a big and heavy character he's pretty hard to combo due to floatiness, insane air speed and very quick nair. Get in, do your damage but do not overextend your combo as you're going to get terribly punished for it. His mobility and good arsenal of vertical moves all make it a hard time for our landings. Jab1 grab, nair1 grab and jab1 jab2 grab are very risky due to his nair as well.

However I've seen Yoshis having trouble trying to punish well spaced bairs. At low percents bair leads to follow-ups and at high percents it kills. Another positive aspect in this match-up is our ability to survive vertically, so we're not being taken down soon by usmash, uair or downB. His fair and fsmash require good reads to actually hit so expect to live for pretty long if you don't get gimped. His height makes SHFF Uair easier to hit, too.

That's what I have for now, it's good to see a MU thread flowing.
 

Fandangox

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I think Battlefield may help in this MU, the platforms diminish the options for Yoshi's eggs and also prevent him from using Yoshi bomb from the low ground as a read.
 

0mart

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Well I think we're about done with Diddy and I'd summarize it in the following way:

Summary:
Neutral favors Falcon as long as you don't let Diddy get a banana out. Falcon is also good at preventing and punishing this along with Diddy's many other options with his greater speed as long as you stay in mid range, just outsize the range of Diddy's troublesome fair. If he does get the banana out, he trades the ability to use his aerials for a quick and strong punish game. Hence you should avoid using dashgrab or dash attack unless you're sure you'll catch him off guard because otherwise he'll punish them with about 20% of damage. Play safe and approach with shield or spotdodge to bait him, or shorthop aerials since banana throw isn't fast enough to punish the likes of uair or bair into shield. Cover yourself with your jab to prevent Diddy from throwing the banana at you or grabbing you whenever you can, it's an especially great tool in this matchup. You can spotdodge or roll backwards against monkeyflip out of reaction and punish with dash attack or grab, or you can challenge it with uair or utilt. Falcon's disadvantage is a bit worse than Diddy's because of his greater lack of defensive aerial options and his size and weight, but a stronger advantage because of superior speed on the ground and in the air, higher damage output and greater KO power. One important part is to always try to read Diddy's monkeyflip whether he's above you or offstage and challenge it with uair/dair or punish it with bair and in general try to scare him into recovering low. You can then intercept his up b with many of Falcon's lingering aerials such as the soft knee, bair or nair. Try not to let him angle his recovery past you onto the stage though. You can option-select this by dropping down with bair when he uses his up b, second jump back to the stage and punish him if he lands there. Falcon doesn't have to fear Diddy too much when recovering as long as you recover low, but watch out for drop zone fair and his dtilt on the 2 frame ledge vulnerability, which can get quite annoying at its worst.

Pros:
- Greater speed and lesser landing lag on aerials makes Falcon's ability to punish Diddy greater than vice-versa
- Better ability to intercept and prevent Diddy's bananas than most characters
- Higher damage output
- Stronger and safer KO moves

Cons:
- Banana turns the punish game around; Falcon has to slow his game down and play more safe with less reward
- Despite lesser damage output, Diddy has more guaranteed follow-ups out of a grab especially with Falcon's weight and gravity
- In addition, slower aerials and the lack of below-hitting ones leave Falcon with less options to free himself from combos

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: uthrow to uair is still somewhat of a KO option for Diddy while Falcon likes to kill horizontally
- Town & City: same as above, but to a lesser extent

Stages to pick:
- Duck Hunt: straight walls aid Falcon's recovery, a lot of space to move around in, large blastzones emphasize Diddy's lack of relative kill power
- Battlefield: high ceiling, platforms help Falcon arguably more than Diddy, you can meteor through the stage near the ledges
- Omegas with straight walls: all-around decent for Falcon, with a wall jump option when recovering

Let's do Yoshi next since his name has appeared here a couple times; while Sheik and Pikachu are critical matchups for Falcon I think there's also less to discuss with them than with the likes of Yoshi, ZSS, Sonic, Ness or Rosalina. Everyone seems to have a different opinion whether these MUs are against us, even or in our favor, so simply out of interest I'd like some light to be shed on that. I'll be inviting the Yoshi boards over now.


FINALLY WE HAVE A MU THREAD
 

Killtrox

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I personally find shielding to be more important in the Yoshi MU than in some other top-tier matchups simply due to his lingering hitboxes. This is another MU where defensive playing is more advantageous, as Yoshi can easily Nair and jab out of our combos.

Shield grabbing/jabbing his aerials is useful for creating openings, as are empty short hops. In the meta, making the Yoshi play aggressively (by empty hopping or retreating without attacking) helps us, as it gives us more options out of playing defensively.

I don't think I've ever beaten a decent or better Yoshi by being on the aggro.
 

Lukingordex

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Shielding is important in the Yoshi MU because he lacks safe on shield options (also he's definitely NOT top tier)

Yoshi's kill moves requires reads to hit, so yeah, as @ Silvalfo Silvalfo stated, if you don't be predictable you can live to decent %s in this MU.

I'm not very experienced in this MU, but i'd like to point 2 things for the falcon mains:

1-) Don't regrab the ledge, or else you're going to be faired.
2-) Try to sweetspot the ledge, because otherwise Dtilt/ Dsmash will hit you.
 
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