Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

Trifroze

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Speaking of low percent damage racking capabilities, I'm pretty sure I once tested that Fox can take about 30-40% damage off of Falcon's nairs if you dthrow them out of a dash grab at 0% from the far side of the stage even if they DI away. I'd imagine rapid jab also does close to 20% on Fox.
 

Gawain

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Speaking of low percent damage racking capabilities, I'm pretty sure I once tested that Fox can take about 30-40% damage off of Falcon's nairs if you dthrow them out of a dash grab at 0% from the far side of the stage even if they DI away. I'd imagine rapid jab also does close to 20% on Fox.
He can't escape the nairs? If so that's new to me, I'll have to try it out. I always thought he could just DJ out. If he can't, that's about as much as Fox's uptilts will get.
 
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Also I feel like The Falcon Fox matchup is 60:40 for Falcon IMO because if Falcon plays his cards right he can combo Fox all the time do to him being a fastfaller Fox can kinda do the same but not to the same extent imo.
 

Sammy-jack

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Well, for Fox vs THE CAP, I just played a few good rounds with my brother since he can play Fox well.

There's the obvious stuff:
-Dies early to certain moves: 40-50% from knee, down tilt becomes a reliable kill move around 70% on edge (or at least pushes him back too far to recover).
-Is ledge guarded fairly easily: Falcon can Dair or Bair into Fox's Up B if below stage. Down Tilt and up Tilt can catch his Side B off stage.
-After the 15% mark, he is light enough to start really being comboed by Falcon: Down Throw -> Double Nair, etc.

Then there were some things I noticed with spacing of U-Airs, that Fox either can't trade with them at all, or my brother just wasn't sure how to effectively. They would either just string together, or I would counter whatever aerial he was going for.. Either way, It just felt like complete dominance.

While we were grounded, however, he could go for the throws into Fair, drag to the ground, and combo from there. Fox's Down smash covers Falcon's recovery, so I had to try to bait it from him or mix it up in order to recover right. Fox can combo three or four U-tilts while you are at low percents, and lead into an U-smash if you don't DI out of it. It's a good way for him to rack some early damage on Falcon if he doesn't go for the grab combos.

Fox U-smash overrides Falcon's Side-B (or at least, it did for me every time), so he can pull that out as a Clutch counter to Side-B.
If you manage to Bair Fox while he is Up-B, and he techs, the Fox can easily aerial you right back, so immediately double jumping isn't suggested by me... (died 3 times to that mistake, lol).

And that's about all I picked up from our games. I hope you guys find something that I didn't even think about.
 

Boomuki

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Imo this matchup is 55:45 in Falcons favor. The main reason being the grab Game, Fox doesnt really have guaranteed stuff against Falcon and no kill throw so i abuse shield a lot. Falcon has a much greater damage output and kills earlier with bair and down throw to knee, which is super easy to hit a Fox with for some reason. Edgeguarding Fox is also pretty easy, Side b can be easily predicted because at certain distance Fox has to use it, so the move gets beaten by bair and offstage bair should kill. Side b to get onstage gets beaten by holding jab and up b is easy to hit with dair and bair when he doesnt use it to ride the wall. In this case you can still drop down with bair so he at least has to stage tech it.

Fox on the other hand has his uptilt strings and... I actually don't know what he really has otherwise besides Speed that can challenge Falcon. Fox kill moves are fsmash, upsmash, bair and upair. You shouldnt get ever hit by fsmash, upsmash kills Falcon relatively late, so you really just have to look out for these aerials. What Fox has to keep the matchup pretty even still are his options to gimp Falcon when he gets him offstage, his best tool to gimp being the downsmash as mentioned earlier.
In the neutral, if the Fox doesnt take your baits to get punishes you still have ftilt and downtilt as pokes, which outrange Fox. Dtilt especially is good against Fox because it sends him horizontally offstage even at mid-high percents from around 60 i would guess.

So yeah, slight advantage for Falcon imo.


Edit: i really hope ness will be after this as i choke pretty hard against him, i think it's a super tough mu for Falcon.
 
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HFlash

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Ok, I'll try my best and give an analysis for this MU:

What they both have: This is generally a fast paced, volatile MU, as both characters lack real defensive options when they get hit, and being fast, heavy falling characters, they can combo one another after just one attack. However, each can better combo with different moves. Fox mostly had utilt shenanigans at low percent which like Mario, can give him an early 50 to 60 percent lead off of one mistake. Not good. Both dash attacks can lead to u air sharking situations, though Falcon feels to get more out of those situations than Fox. Additionally,

Falcon positives: Falcon has the better grab range, and grab follow ups. Being able to set up dthrow --> uair ---> bait air dodge --> knee/dair is a huge plus as opposed to Fox's grab follow ups (which I guess is dthrow --> fair) but there is no kill situation there. Further more, although Falcon's recovery isn't good, it's not as bad as Fox's. Theoretically speaking (because admittedly it is hard to pull off consistently) you can almost always hit fox out of his illusion, and even more easily out of his firefox. Once Fox is off stage, he shouldn't be able to get back. Unless with the new patch Foxes can learn to effectively shine spike people, I don't see how fox can consistently catch fox, particularly when recovering low. Now add the fact that Falcon is heavier, which is important in this game as more % = more KB, so it is possible to kill Fox at crazy low %'s with a hard read with fsmash/raptor boost or a rogue bair. I guess fox has uair, but that is exclusively used when fox is below Falcon, and is a bit more telegraphed.

Fox positives: Neutral B: As sexy as Falcon Punch may be, it's a pretty useless move in a serious match. Fox may not have auto cancel lasers, but a good fox will sneak in that extra 10- 15 % on guaranteed lasers off of throws and what not. That percentage can mean the difference between his usmash barely getting that knock back needed to finish Falcon's stock off... or not. The big thing Fox has over Falcon imo is kill confirm set ups. Examples of this include soft hit nair --> usmash or dair ---> usmash (with with Falcon's sub par standing grab length) and Falcon just doesn't. This is huge, as say you meant to SH nair infront of the fox and instead SH fair? That's a gone stock. If he is in the air, that's an instant dair to spike kill confirm.

Conclusion:
The MU is 55:45 our favor although I could see it being 50:50/45:55 Fox favor. Theoretically, the Falcon can always edge guard the Fox, and as long as Falcon doesn't leave a big opening, Fox won't be able to get his kill confirms, where in a game with evenly matched players, while playing footsies, the Falcon is allowed to make a few more mistakes in the neutral due to weight, and that random bair at like 100 % or so will eventually land.

Side note: I used to think that Ness was a 70/30 MU in Ness advantage but it really isn't that bad. You can spike him in his recovery. Man up, and learn to do so. It's worth the effort.
 

pluto

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hey guys. i'm new to the falcon boards. i'm usually not very active on forums but i want to get to know my fellow falcon mains! also, this is a perfect time to chime in. i live in socal and play with larrylurr (arguably the best fox) at least twice a week, and we literally run this matchup for hours. i don't quite have time to go into massive detail at the moment, BUT i do want to throw some input in on edge guarding fox, because there are a couple things you can do that i really don't see that often!

we'll start with the obvious ones. down tilt and up tilt can stuff out fox's illusion and completely destroy his happiness. you can also grab ledge and back air his side-b on reaction. also if you can predict when they'll side-b, you can run off knee RIGHT before they illusion and the sweet spot will connect.

the thing i DON'T see enough at all, is that when fox is on the ledge, if he gets up with ANYTHING other than a roll, your jab will beat it out. you have two options once your jab connects. obviously you can finish it with the gentleman or rapid jabs to create another edge guard situation, BUT you can also just use the first two hits of jab, then let them fall. if they attempted to recover with an arial, they have no jump at this point, and due to the fact that you can't grab the ledge for 60 frames after you've been hit, the second jab will force them under the ledge, and if you jump RIGHT after you double jab, all you have to do is drift down with them and wait for the up-b which eventually HAS to come out. if they panic and do it right away, it's an incredibly easy dair to connect and the stock is yours. even if they go low, you can react and kill them, and still make it back because you'll still have your double jump. a great thing to do when they are recovering is to use a down-tilt early on purpose. when they snap to the ledge, they are under the impression that they have time to drop down, jump, and throw a dair or fair to recover, but your jab comes out so fast that they'll realize far too late they've been baited and they're doomed. their ONLY option when you are using this jab technique is to either roll up, which you can react to with a dash grab or forward smash once you see it coming and have conditioned them to be scared, or they can drop down, drift back and jump, and try to forward-b through you. this is a 50/50, because either they'll illusion through you and make center stage, or be hit and face the doom of the double jab down air. BUT you can easily see this coming and just f-smash them which they drift back.

tl:dr fox should literally never make it back to the stage vs falcon.

BUT on the flipside, neither should falcon vs. fox. fox's downsmash clips falcon under the ledge and is VERY easy to time and react to, and if you aren't confident with the downsmash, you can simply uptilt falcon and then proceed with more uptilts or a back air depending on percents. so both characters are just 100% ****ed off stage no matter what. and that's all the time i have today! i'll post more thoughts when i am home and have time. this is my favorite matchup in the entire game and playing it with larry each week is an absolute delight.

P.S if you want to be the cool guy at the tournament against a fox, and if he's recovering low, fast-fall sour spot of knee will true combo into a sweet spot knee if you jump right after the sour one connects. this works on most fast fallers, but you aren't making it back to the stage, so make sure you have a stock lead or just make sure you don't care about possibly throwing the whole game. have fun <3
 

Raidex

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Don't mean to interrupt the current MU discussion (Fox), but I'm attending a big tournament this Saturday and my first opponent will be a Pacman player, and a good one. I have little to no experience in the Pacman MU, so any feedback, tips, specific setups, or anything in general would be appreciated.
 

Aidalator64

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My only suggestions for this matchup,
1. Make the most of your edguards, a simple back air when he side b's to the ledge, and down airs for his up b
2. Carry him across the stage into an edgeguard, nair-ing him across the stage/back air to throws
3. Stay in medium range most of the time, this won't let him lazer camp
4. Know your limits and spacing, his nair messes up your strings and he has great options for oos punishes ie jab and usmash
 

Trifroze

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Yeah it's been a while, leaving for a tournament soon so I'll do the write up either before that or after (maybe while I'm there). Going to edit it into this post when I do.

Summary:
A very volatile matchup where both characters can do big damage to each other once they get in and where it's tough for both to recover back to the stage. Falcon can down tilt or down air meteor Fox's recovery depending on which one he opts for, and Fox can down smash Falcon's ledgegrab fairly easily so delay your up b whenever you see him charging it. Abuse shield in this matchup especially when you're at kill percents, as even if Fox gets a grab there's nothing threatening he can get directly off of it. On the other hand from low percents Falcon can chain together as many as three neutral airs on Fox, and although not guaranteed, down throw to knee is viable in this matchup because of how light Fox is. Falcon has a stronger and safer aerial game especially in the neutral, and after the patch you can go for falling up air on shield to jab which can't be shieldgrabbed to send Fox offstage, and eventually mix it up into grab and of course knee if Fox fails to shield the hit. A slight advantage for Falcon.

Pros:

- Stronger and safer aerial game
- No need to be particularly afraid of grabs
- Similar damage output with better survivability

Cons:
- Weaker ground game, although dash grab and dash attack are always good
- Recovery can be tough against Fox's down smash

Stages to ban:
Generally anything with a low ceiling due to Fox's up smash and up air

Stages to pick:
Pretty much anything else, especially Battlefield, Dreamland and Smashville due to platforms

Let's go for Ness next then, I'll get their boards over.
 
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Boomuki

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Don't have much experience in this MU, because i always try to avoid it.
I think it's clearly in Ness' favor, he can wall Falcon out, combo him super hard out of grabs, uptilts or landing upairs, juggle him and gimp Falcon with Pk thunder and nair.
 
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Basically don't get grabbed, and make the most off edgeguards that's all i can say soz, i had to vs one in tourney recently. U gotta be winning the neutral basically and capitalize off every oppurtunity you get. Ways to win neutral include faking out with dance trots, empty short hops, short hop aerials and yeah
 

Douglas Jay Ganon

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I always struggle against Ness. He's small, and his fair spaces very well. Falcon is heavy, so PK fire will chain really hard if it gets you. Also, you can't perfect shield pk fire like you could perfect shield some DDD's gordos, for example. That makes shielding pk fire not so useful. You can although jump and punish the fire, which has a lot of ending lag. His out of shield option is very fast (jump nair). He has that d-throw combo, which should work on Falcon till high percents. Also, he usually kills with u-air and b-throw, making Smash Village not a good option, because of his low ceilings and sides.

On the other side, Ness is light. One fsmash should do the job quickly, but if not, Ness' second jump goes super high, and almost always results on landing or grabing the ledge. But if he does Pk thunder... Come on slam!
 

HFlash

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I used to think this MU was close to unwinnable but honestly, it isn't that bad for Falcon.
The main points of the MU are:

1) Avoid PKF and grab: Every time you get hit by one of these moves, either be prepared to eat 20-35% damage or lose a stock. At low to mid level play, this MU is very aggravating because it's so easy for Ness to convert PKf > Dthrow > fair (2-4)x. He really has a Luigi-like strong option off of grabs/PKF especially on a fast faller like Falcon so if you plan on winning this MU is to simply not get hit by it. How to avoid it? Dash dancing (or dash canceling) is a good way to punish Ness if he atttempts to use the move.

2) Don't approach him from above: Ness' fair in this game is... very good. Ness' fair stuffs all of Falcon's aerial moves so if you predictably come in with a nair/fair/uair, Ness will just fair you out of it, and get an advantaged position. Approach from the ground with either dash dancing, or short hops until Ness leaves an opening. Once your in, do Falcon things, and try to get Ness off of the stage.

3) Learn to edge guard him: Ness is one of those characters that despite having such a linear recovery, he is rarely edge guarded simply because of how "scary" his PKT2 is. If timed right, Falcon can spike him out of his recovery,or you could simply get hit by the PKT1 and he will be forced to free fall. Rosalina shouldn't be the only one taking advantage of Ness' bad recovery. Also, the even if you get hit by PKT2 off stage, you can always just tech off the stage where not only would you survive, you could even set up the tech jump off the stage into a spike or a knee. Ultimately, Ness is exploitable off stage, so unless the Falcon is messing up, he should be able to take advantage and edge guard Ness effectively.

4) Be patient: This kind of goes with my first 2 points. Ness gets so much out of mistakes from Falcon, that you simply cannot rush in on auto pilot and expect to win. Ness has no real way to force an approach from you so don't. Keep dancing around him, and short hopping, until he does an unsafe PKF, or some other unsafe option. This is probably a good thing to have Vs. any MU really, but it's especially important in this MU.

Overall, in low/mid level play, I'd give it -2 from our point of view. Mistake for mistake, Ness makes more out of it than Falcon, and this will make it very hard on the Falcon to win. On high/top level play, say Fatality vs. Shaky, I'd be as bold to say it's an even MU. Maybe at worst -1. Like I've mentioned previously, once you stop putting yourself in a position where you can get dthrow and faired to oblivion, you take away such a huge part of Ness' edge on Falcon. Let me know what you guys think, and if you have any other Ness specific MU Q's (one of my main training partners is a Ness/Lucas main).

Important note: Good Nesses will immediately uair after an airdodge to catch the opponent trying to punish it. As the move is now, it hits like a truck, has stupid disjoint, AND comes out very fast. Don't try to punish airdodges.

Edit: Added the tidbit on teching the PKT2 hit., and changed the ratio to the point system
 
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HFlash

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That is another point I forgot, I'll add it to my earlier post. Oh, and I just realized that we are using a singular points system. I'll update my post to accommodate for that as well.
 

Wintropy

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YEEEEAH! SUPER SPEEEED!

Ahem.

Intergalactic racers (with very cool helmets)! The Pit / Dark Pit board is currently discussing the Captain Falcon matchup, and we need your feedback!

The big blue car is pretty neat, too. Where can I get me one of 'em?
 

teluoborg

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This matchup is pretty even imo.

Ness has a pretty good walling ability with his aerials and side B so you must be very careful with your dashes and not rush in mindlessly. He also has a poor horizontal mobility so you must take advantage of the fact that you can position yourself better with dashing shields and short hops.

The follow up potential of his side B depends on how close you are to him when it hits you, the closer meaning easier combos. If you're hit by the end of side B there is so little hitstun that you can shield, roll or even jab during the multihit. I think I even managed to dash away one time, not sure though.

Other than that beware of his Nair and Uair which both come out very quickly and cover way more space than they look like (Uair range is ridiculous), outspace him in mid range with Bairs and Dtilts and it should be ok.

Oh and of course don't be late to punish his up B or you're in for a world of pain.
 

Sirocco

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Wouldn't mind talking about Olimar or Villager after Ness is done. Against Olimar in particular, I definitely have a hard time in the neutral against this character. He easily zones you out, stuffs approaches and remains seemingly safe with practically any of his attacks. Also not sure what I can do out of shield against him, or actually any small character in general. On the flipside, Olimar gets dumpstered off of a grab and dies very quickly. His recovery is also pretty easy to edgeguard.
 

Gawain

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Our best regional player plays Ness. I usually use Roy when playing against him, but I can comment on the Falcon/Ness matchup as I've labbed it a fair bit.

Falcon has some pretty nasty punishes on Ness. Nair 1 can lead into footstool/dair reset strings. Ness also happens to be fairly easy to footstool so it's not unviable to footstool him after falling up airs/etc to optimize damage output. He's also not super heavy so down throw works well on him. I feel like brave Falcons can also edgeguard Ness pretty harshly. It's risky but Falcon's edgeguard tools are pretty good vs Ness. An underrated aspect of the MU imo.

Ness, however, also has some brutal damage racking on Captain Falcon. Our weight and fall speed puts us in a real bad spot when he gets up airs/forward airs, but it also means we get to live a bit longer from his evil back throw. PKT edge guarding is unfortunately pretty effective vs Falcon though. Try to avoid situations where you have to recover in the lower half of the screen, as this is where it gets hard to dodge it, since you can't afford to delay your recovery or weave as much at those low levels.

A good Ness is unlikely to be using PKF that much in this matchup as Falcon is fast enough to punish him pretty hard for whiffing it. Really, just watch out for Ness' grab and his aerials(primarily up air and forward air). This is where he's going to set up for his most damaging stuff. Also bear in mind that Ness will often spam his neutral air to get out of hair situations, like Falcon's throw setups. Of course, this is baitable and can be heavily punished though.

IMO the matchups is probably pretty 50:50. I might be convinced to say that it SLIGHTLY favors Ness though, considering that Ness has much more guaranteed kill options. His back throw alone just makes him kill much more consistently. Whereas Falcon has far earlier kill windows, if he misses them he's in some trouble (though as of the latest patch, not nearly as much trouble).

In fact as of the patch, I'm even less inclined to believe that Ness beats Falcon out. Ness isn't getting nearly as many free grabs anymore, no one is.
 

Trifroze

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Ness' airdodge is definitely in a class of its own due to the z-axis properties of it, even though his invincibility ends he's still effectively untouchable for some additional frames. There's still definitely some time to punish it, but you have to be more precise with the timing especially when it comes to punishing it with knee. Dair should be easier.

Should probably re-evaluate all the matchups quickly after Ness is done due to uair/bair nerfs and 1.1.1 safety buffs (was a big deal for Falcon since he didn't lose anything important OoS but uair and bair gained massive safety and dair became safe on shield).
 
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Prometheus16

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Wow, I finally found the Falcon match-up boards....that took a lot longer than expected....

I'm not sure if I can really give any good info, since I'm only low levels (maybe mid levels) of play, but I'd like to try....

A good Ness is unlikely to be using PKF that much in this matchup as Falcon is fast enough to punish him pretty hard for whiffing it. Really, just watch out for Ness' grab and his aerials(primarily up air and forward air). This is where he's going to set up for his most damaging stuff. Also bear in mind that Ness will often spam his neutral air to get out of hair situations, like Falcon's throw setups. Of course, this is baitable and can be heavily punished though.
Even then, it is possible to shield inbetween the times the fire damages you, and you can roll out of it at this point.

Edit: Unless Ness is like, right next to you or something like that....

Edit 2: After playing with Ness a bit, he seems like he could use PKT1 to stop moves like our Side-B in air. This is odd, because the ball doesn't really knock you back in the direction that it was traveling.... So watch out for that...
 
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ntarps

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Id say ness is even. if sonic falcon is considered even then ness falcon I have wayyyy less trouble with. Falcons ground speed can bait out a lot of stuff ness throws out. the biggest trouble is yoyo gimps because of falcons poor recovery. ness has worse ground game and any pk fire thrown out in neutral should be easily punished. its also easy to gimp ness and read his recovery options (like ledge drop fair to get back on, or air dodging into an up air on landing). Ness's down throw can string to a lot of fairs but i think if you DI up/behind you only take the up air or fair which is reasonable. If played properly, ness should have trouble getting back on stage and should be getting dash grabbed a lot for any mis spaced aerial. imo 55-45 falcons favor but people who dont know the mu as well would say even or in ness's favor
 

Prometheus16

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I'll also say to watch out for the D-tilt. It is probably his fastest move, combos into itself and his neutral combo, (maybe) combos into a grab or PKF (which if it does, will most likely combo into a grab since you're that close), and it does about 3% (not sure).

Our move-set prevents us from healing Ness via his Down-B, but we also can't bait it out to punish him....
 

A_Kae

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Hello, Captain Falcon players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Captain Falcon matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-captain-falcon-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.423227/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/
 

juancho7111

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Yo for the Rosalina matchup, I have an easy way of getting rid of Luma. It might seem pretty nooby but falcon kick sends Luma away and kills him from a quarter to third of the stage. If Rosalina does anything but jump away, Luma eats it. The likely outcome is a shield and punish, but that's usually fine since Rosalina can't combo very well without Luma.

If I do it too much I can read the jump and set up airs, or do something else lol
 

Psychoace

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After watching zero obliterate nesses with falcon i feel like its even or slight falcons favor we're fast enough to combat pk fire and the rest of his neutral game once ness is off stage though he should be dead most people fear a recovering ness but hes and easy target for dair upb or back air offstage before pkt hits him. He combos falcon hard and has a broken air dodge and pkt combo jank, but with our speed we should be controlling the pace.

Can we get some discussion going about peach? I cant find a lot of mu info on her at all and im struggling a bit in that department. The peaches i play against dont really spam smash attacks so i often have a hard time punishing or getting in. What stages are recommended? Duckhunt battlefield?
 

MadSpace

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I always struggle against Ness. He's small, and his fair spaces very well. Falcon is heavy, so PK fire will chain really hard if it gets you. Also, you can't perfect shield pk fire like you could perfect shield some DDD's gordos, for example. That makes shielding pk fire not so useful. You can although jump and punish the fire, which has a lot of ending lag. His out of shield option is very fast (jump nair). He has that d-throw combo, which should work on Falcon till high percents. Also, he usually kills with u-air and b-throw, making Smash Village not a good option, because of his low ceilings and sides.

On the other side, Ness is light. One fsmash should do the job quickly, but if not, Ness' second jump goes super high, and almost always results on landing or grabing the ledge. But if he does Pk thunder... Come on slam!
But you can perfect shield PK Fire.... I perfect shield it all the time.
 

N8n8

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2015
Messages
3
Personally, I struggle with the Ness MU. I think it is very dependent on the neutral compred to many other matchups. Both have great combo and punish game. I'd say falcon needs to play footsies a lot better. Avoid PKF and grab those will mess you up. Battlefield might be a good stage choice to have a safer landing to avoid PKF. Not sure how valid this is but I hope I can contribute a little given that I suck at this MU.
 
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