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Meta Colors of Yoshi - Metagame Discussion and Tips

DunnoBro

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I prefer launch against chars with naturally good disadvantage states. Lay vs bad disadvantage state chars like sonic and rosalina.

It's a pretty meh side grade, I'm also becoming quite fond of light egg roll. There are times when both me and my opponent know yoshi can't do anything about their air dodge after a string, but light egg roll when done from the air has a good chance of doing something during those situations. It depends heavily on their position, but it's overall priority/speed/positioning prevents it from being too risky an option.

Also, I'm beginning to feel REALLY frustrated with Yoshi after game 1. Is he just bad on most stages?

Battlefield, dreamland, and halberd make it hell to land since you can't use eggs or b-reverse egg lay for mix-up reliably.
FD has a similar landing issue.

Lylat, smashville, and T&C are the only stages I like.

Castle siege and duck hunt are awkward. Delfino is mostly okay, a pretty ballsy CP since I feel other chars make more use out of it than yoshi can though. I'd rather just go to T&C.
 
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Y

YoshiStar5000

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There's a setup that I've been doing for some time now. It's jab>Dsmash. I use it if I just want to get more damage I'm my opponents rather than going for follow ups from my 2 jabs. However on characters that float like Kirby and Jiggs it sometimes doesn't work. So it's best to do it on heavy or fast falling characters.

It isn't guarunteed though. A fast enough move that reaches Yoshi (Ususally frame 3 moves) can break it if they expect it. This can also be used after a grab release.
 

Skitrel

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Probably better to change your muscle memory to jab>usmash no?

Jab>dsmash - 3% + 12%
jab> usmash - 3% + 14%

And you get the potential juggle followups and advantageous position of your opponent being above you.

Jump cancelled usmash after jab hasn't failed me in a long time, I think it's guaranteed.

jab>dsmash is probably a good option if near an edge at lower percents though. However jab>dtilt probably sets up for the walk off fair more frequently.
 
Y

YoshiStar5000

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Probably better to change your muscle memory to jab>usmash no?

Jab>dsmash - 3% + 12%
jab> usmash - 3% + 14%

And you get the potential juggle followups and advantageous position of your opponent being above you.

Jump cancelled usmash after jab hasn't failed me in a long time, I think it's guaranteed.

jab>dsmash is probably a good option if near an edge at lower percents though. However jab>dtilt probably sets up for the walk off fair more frequently.
I use jab>Dsmash so the Usmash doesn't get staled. Usmash is probably his main kill option so I would use jab>Usmash at higher percents.
 

Skitrel

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I use jab>Dsmash so the Usmash doesn't get staled. Usmash is probably his main kill option so I would use jab>Usmash at higher percents.
Good reasoning. Doesn't fit my style but I understand it.

I find downB kills more frequently for myself, I personally think usmash is too valuable to save for only 1 use per stock as it's way too useful for its movement capabilities with jump cancelling. It's also too useful for turnaround usmash on egglay to add damage.
 
Y

YoshiStar5000

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If you want damage positional advantage, I would go jab>Utilt which can lead in to many Uairs.
 

Skitrel

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If you want damage positional advantage, I would go jab>Utilt which can lead in to many Uairs.
Of course, up to 30%. From that point on it's not going to combo though.

You can't jump cancel into utilt either so it's slightly less reliable than the usmash variant.

It's easier to send them high with an usmash, follow them with shorthop eggthrow to bait airdodges then hit them with second jump into uair or nair. You're getting the egg damage and zoning from eggs to a ledge grab this way or you're getting the uair/nair damage from frame traps. With the lower altitude tilt sends them it's a less likely follow up in my opinion.
 
Y

YoshiStar5000

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Of course, up to 30%. From that point on it's not going to combo though.

You can't jump cancel into utilt either so it's slightly less reliable than the usmash variant.

It's easier to send them high with an usmash, follow them with shorthop eggthrow to bait airdodges then hit them with second jump into uair or nair. You're getting the egg damage and zoning from eggs to a ledge grab this way or you're getting the uair/nair damage from frame traps. With the lower altitude tilt sends them it's a less likely follow up in my opinion.
Would that work if they just fast fell to the ground though?

This is what I think is the best strategy on a Mid weight:

0 - 30% Double jab/Jab > Utilt/ Jab > Grab

30 - 80% Jab > Dsmash/ Jab > Dtilt/ Jab > Down B

80% and up Jab > Usmash/ Jab > Down B/ Jab Fsmash (Maybe...?)
 

Skitrel

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Would that work if they just fast fell to the ground though?

This is what I think is the best strategy on a Mid weight:

0 - 30% Double jab/Jab > Utilt/ Jab > Grab

30 - 80% Jab > Dsmash/ Jab > Dtilt/ Jab > Down B

80% and up Jab > Usmash/ Jab > Down B/ Jab Fsmash (Maybe...?)
I've never had jab>usmash whiff against the fastfallers, the most common cause of it whiffing is the jab knocking the person too high/far. It's least reliable on floaties it seems and whenever people get to high percents.

I don't nor wouldn't use it at less than 30% anyway so I'm not sure. It's probably possible.

I find myself going for the "140% and nair them" strategy for kills quite often. I generally find this much easier than trying to fish for the kills with usmash or downB which aren't very safe. Adding damage to people isn't usually very hard at higher percents as they're more concerned with dodging a kill attempt than dodging damage... With that in mind it's usually pretty easy to tack on safe-ish damage.
 

Codaption

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Tacking on more damage to kill them with Nair is something to consider if they're already at pretty high percents, but it isn't really a good idea to use it in favor of another kill option. You're just giving them more rage to kill you at that point.
 
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Skitrel

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Tacking on more damage to kill them with Nair is something to consider if they're already at pretty high percents, but it isn't really a good idea to use it in favor of another kill option. You're just giving them more rage to kill you at that point.
I see a few possible scenarios:

Fish for kill. Fail to get kill. Take extra damage. Be unable to use nair as a kill move option. Get killed. Continue to be unable to get kill in your next stock because you didn't put on that damage you could have earlier.

Add more damage. Open up nair as a kill option. Put yourself at risk of opponent rage but gain more options. If opponent gets kill against you then he is still a significantly easier to kill target because you chose to do the damage.

***

On the surface of this situation it APPEARS as if doing less damage is optimal, but I would bet money that you'll drop fewer games by doing more damage. It lowers the number of things that can go wrong in my opinion.

I'd rather take an opponent to 110-150% where eggthrow>nair and eggthrow>uair can become a true combo various characters on the offchance that they might get a good string out on me before I close the stock. They become a simple target to even the match for the second stock and an easier target for me to close the stock during this one.

It just seems sensible to do the dair damage wherever it's possible and safe (offstage) as opposed to taking the greedy but significantly less likely to hit Fair option. It's not even a risk. There should be no chance of taking damage when throwing a dair out on a recovering opponent. It's the easiest damage Yoshi can do and strikes me as completely unoptimal to ever choose not to do it.
 

Codaption

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I see a few possible scenarios:

Fish for kill. Fail to get kill. Take extra damage. Be unable to use nair as a kill move option. Get killed. Continue to be unable to get kill in your next stock because you didn't put on that damage you could have earlier.
That entire situation hinges on the player fishing for kills, which no Yoshi should be doing to begin with. If you can get a good read on them and nail em with a good smash attack, then you should always do it- it ends the stock earlier, putting you in the lead AND robbing them of rage. If you can't get to that point, that's when you start looking for extra damage and Nair kills.

Add more damage. Open up nair as a kill option. Put yourself at risk of opponent rage but gain more options. If opponent gets kill against you then he is still a significantly easier to kill target because you chose to do the damage.
Tell that to Lucario- if you try to tack on extra damage and lose your stock first for it, you may as well put down your controller and walk away. You suddenly have a HUGE mountain to climb, and it's not gonna be easy to secure that stock from him.

Against characters like Luc that benefit immensely from rage (he's not the only one, and before they removed Diddy's Ho-ha he wasn't even the one to get the most benefit from it), you don't want to let them GET that rage to begin with.
On the surface of this situation it APPEARS as if doing less damage is optimal, but I would bet money that you'll drop fewer games by doing more damage. It lowers the number of things that can go wrong in my opinion.

I'd rather take an opponent to 110-150% where eggthrow>nair and eggthrow>uair can become a true combo various characters on the offchance that they might get a good string out on me before I close the stock. They become a simple target to even the match for the second stock and an easier target for me to close the stock during this one.
It's not a matter of doing less damage, it's a matter of getting early kills. Again, it depends on your ability to get a good read on them, but if that's within your power then why WOULDN'T you end things asap?

It just seems sensible to do the dair damage wherever it's possible and safe (offstage) as opposed to taking the greedy but significantly less likely to hit Fair option. It's not even a risk. There should be no chance of taking damage when throwing a dair out on a recovering opponent. It's the easiest damage Yoshi can do and strikes me as completely unoptimal to ever choose not to do it.
Dair is easy to land, but it is NOT a guaranteed hit and it has its own risks. No competent opponent is going to be occupied solely with getting back to the stage, and if you flutter-kick them every time sooner or later you'll be met with an aerial of their own during the startup (unless they're in a position where they can't afford to do so, but with everyone having such good recoveries in this game that's not going to happen very often). If you DO land it, you just got yourself some good percent on them, but you're also in a terrible position while also guaranteeing that they recover.

Fair is not very likely to hit if you toss it out constantly, but it's much safer than Dair and you have the option to condition them for an airdodge read. For example, you can consistently try to bat them away with Nair when they're offstage, but once they start preparing for it and try and airdodge the hit...you meet their dodge attempt with your face when they come out of invincibility frames. (I've also found that Nairing right after Fair tends to hit people even if they dodge Fair, though I suppose that'd be somewhat character-dependent.)
 
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Skitrel

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It's not a matter of doing less damage, it's a matter of getting early kills. Again, it depends on your ability to get a good read on them, but if that's within your power then why WOULDN'T you end things asap?
Most of your post can be answered by just responding to this question - Why? Because it is NOT good fundamental play to rely on a strategy that requires you to get an early kill.

What happens if you do not get the early kill and go a stock down instead? Your decision to not add damage against an opponent who is obviously very good at dodging your kill options (hence your failure to get the early kill) is now in the lead and you still haven't opened up all of your kill options. You still need to use the same kill options you've been failing to get because you chose not to do damage.

You're stuck either continuing to try and fish for the early percent kill you wanted or changing strategy and attempting to get the later percent kill. All that time you could have added damage and opened up another kill option, you didn't.

Self limiting your options for the sake of an absolutely ideal situation is very unsafe play.

You're planning for the best-case scenario.

Plan for the worst case scenario in every game you play. Play as if you're already in the worst case scenario from the moment a game starts. Don't be complacent. Don't work to ideals, work to the worst possibilities.
 

Codaption

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Most of your post can be answered by just responding to this question - Why? Because it is NOT good fundamental play to rely on a strategy that requires you to get an early kill.

What happens if you do not get the early kill and go a stock down instead? Your decision to not add damage against an opponent who is obviously very good at dodging your kill options (hence your failure to get the early kill) is now in the lead and you still haven't opened up all of your kill options. You still need to use the same kill options you've been failing to get because you chose not to do damage.

You're stuck either continuing to try and fish for the early percent kill you wanted or changing strategy and attempting to get the later percent kill. All that time you could have added damage and opened up another kill option, you didn't.

Self limiting your options for the sake of an absolutely ideal situation is very unsafe play.

You're planning for the best-case scenario.

Plan for the worst case scenario in every game you play. Play as if you're already in the worst case scenario from the moment a game starts. Don't be complacent. Don't work to ideals, work to the worst possibilities.
If you don't get a read, that's when you play for damage. If you do, than you're that much more ahead. That was the point of my response- if landing an early killer isn't something you can feasibly do, then nothing's stopping you from building up damage towards a Nair kill, but if you can force a response and clear them out early for it then you're just holding yourself back for not choosing to.

Kills > Damage, especially in this game where we have rage as a factor. If you're in a situation where both are readily available to you, it's clear which one is going to be selected. It's not a matter of limiting your options- quite the opposite, in fact. It's a matter of knowing exactly when to use your most potent ones. It's not exactly an unreasonable goal, as it's simply a matter of watching your opponent. Note that in most scenarios in top play, a kill is claimed when a top player puts a powerful hitbox in exactly the right space, where they know their opponent is going to be.

To point out something specific:

Self limiting your options for the sake of an absolutely ideal situation is very unsafe play.
Opening more of your options at the cost of empowering your opponent's isn't very safe, either.

EDIT: https://youtu.be/a7NqtZzLXKY

Project M is a very different monster from Smash 4, but this video still shows my point almost perfectly.

Oracle, the Luigi player, gets decently early kills throughout this set. He also gets late, but easy, kills. He uses BOTH kinds of kill options to take Sethlon's stocks, and that's exactly the kind of play I'm trying to push here- what he does is based entirely on the situation he's in at the moment. In the first game alone, he gets a kill off the top with Nair, only to completely trash Sethlon on the last stock with the Misfire he saved. (He goes on to completely waste another Misfire in the second game, because he fished for the kill instead of using the charge wisely. Let me be clear that I DO NOT agree with fishing for kills, as nine times out of ten
It leads to scenarios like those you described.)

Keeping all your options open includes those that end games, and knowing when to use them and when to use pure damage punishes is what makes a good player great.
 
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Skitrel

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Opening more of your options at the cost of empowering your opponent's isn't very safe, either.
We could argue this until the end of time so we're going to have to disagree. My final word on it is that what you're arguing as optimal involves no mitigation of risk.

Yes you increase the chances of the absolutely ideal situation for yourself, but you also increase the chances of the absolute worst situation occurring for yourself.

My argument is simply that it is safer to play expecting the worst situation. This will lower the chance of the ideal situation occurring but it also lowers the chance of the worst situation occuring. At the very least this mitigates "this is now hopeless" scenarios from occurring.

If the opportunity for the ideal scenario (an early kill) happens, then that's great! Take it. But don't choose not to do damage to your opponent on the hope that the opportunity will present itself, it might never.
 

Codaption

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...Ninja'd. :p
If the opportunity for the ideal scenario (an early kill) happens, then that's great! Take it. But don't choose not to do damage to your opponent on the hope that the opportunity will present itself, it might never.
This right here is...pretty much exactly the point of what I was trying to say, actually. I have nothing against playing for damage to get an easy kill- it's something I do a lot, myself. I just don't agree with limiting oneself to playing exclusively like that.
 

Skitrel

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...Ninja'd. :p


This right here is...pretty much exactly the point of what I was trying to say, actually. I have nothing against playing for damage to get an easy kill- it's something I do a lot, myself. I just don't agree with limiting oneself to playing exclusively like that.
I hope nobody thinks I was implying NOT to go for a kill if an opportunity presents itself.

I just don't think someone being off edge is a good excuse to go for fair when dair is a much easier hit for far greater long term gain. It's taking the less likely option for the greater reward, but it's not good play. It results in sexy kills when it works but it doesn't result in reliable wins.

The way I see it it's the off-edge equivalent of a smash attack. I wouldn't recommend people do smash attacks on stage over a safe jab combo that adds damage to the opponent either. The risk is high, choosing to go for a risky kill move that could waste the opportunity to do safe damage just doesn't make sense to me.

A good dunk feels nice, but it's significantly easier to tack damage on or simply to nair your opponent away from the edge. I feel like offstage fair causes people to waste opportunities to do easy damage on the hope of getting their kill move out.
 

Codaption

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Alright, glad thats settled. I hope that nobody thinks that I was advocating for throwing out smash attacks haphazardly- if I was that kind of player, I'd be at the Bowser forums singing the praises of his Fsmash as the only movement option he needs. #Dropkicktovictory, anyone?

(If you DO happen to choose Nair over Dair offtstage, I'd try to land Fair beforehand. Fairly certain that dodging it is a frame trap that leaves the Nair to follow unavoidable in most cases- it's certainly worked for me many times. And if you land the dunk, well, you just trashed them outright >:D)
 
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Fuerzo

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Hey, Raptor is in Super Smash Con top 32 on Winners side! He's up against Dabuz though...
 

Sinister Slush

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I was going to do this Thursday, a gigantic post more bigger than anything I've typed up, but decided to trim it down.


Is Smash 4 Yoshi really a copy/paste of brawl? Some say no, I kinda think so but in a different view, he is but a nerfed version of it due to Smash 4 mechanic changes factored in as well. Along with thinly veiled changes to make him "Seem" better, a normal shield finally since Smash 64, movement during egg toss but less hops given while the mechanics of egg toss is wonky (1/0% eggs if you hit them)

Let's go into why with frame data comparisons first and a thing or two for any changed moves (bair or Dair last hit for example). These're mostly when the first frame the hitbox comes out.
If curious on % differences between the two games, check out this old thread for that and other things like landing lag

Jab1/2
Smash 4

Frame 3- 4
Duration: 17

Frame 3- 4
Duration: 20

Brawl
Frame 3-5
Duration: 17

Frame 3-4
Duration: 19

Change basically the 2nd hit having different animation, otherwise no difference for that since both were able to just punt away and Jab1 leading into Usmash DownB etc.


Dash Attack
Smash 4

Frame 10-12 (strong hit)
Frame 13-20 (weak hit)

Duration: 49

Brawl
Strong Hit 10-13
Weak Hit 14-23

Duration: ??
Nerfed Smash 4 DA to last I believe 10+ frames longer due to For glory complaining about it linking into Uair in lag. Oh well, poor Yoshi Mac and Greninja in that patch.


F-tilt
Smash 4

Frame 5-7 (non-tilted) 6-8 (tilted)

Duration: 38 (non-tilted) 39 (tilted)

Brawl
Frame 6-8

Duration: 29
Pretty much 10 frames added to f-tilt, 1 frame faster to hit them away tho


U-tilt
Smash 4

Frame 8-15

Duration: 31


Brawl
Frames 7-11

Duration: 29
Smash 4's Utilt is a couple frames slower in both startup and duration but can link into itself twice for first major decent change.


D-tilt
Smash 4

Frame 8-10

Duration: 23
Brawl
Frames 8-10
Duration 23
Nothing changed here folks


F-Smash
Smash 4

Frame 14

Duration: 52
Brawl
Frame: 14

Duration: 59
7 frame buff


U-Smash
Smash 4
Frame 11-16

Duration: 46
Brawl

Frame 11-16
Duration: 42
4 frame nerf, Brawl Usmash reared his head back to possibly avoid entire moves while also having much more frames and bigger invincibility, while Smash 4 Usmash is feet only invincible and a small hop to avoid hits under him (which is basically miniscule things like dtilt or lasers lol)


D-Smash
Smash 4
Frame 7- 8
Frame 22-23

Duration: 49


Brawl
Frames 6-7 and 22-23

Duration: 49
Outside of 1 frame slower, still pretty much the same.


N-Air
Smash 4
Frame 3-25

Duration: 44
Brawl
Frame 3-31

Duration: 44
Nair seems to last 6 frames less while still being the same duration, cool...


F-Air
Smash 4
Frame 16-20

Duration: 44
Brawl
Frame 19-21

Duration: 43
Hitbox first comes out 3 frames earlier but 1 frame longer, not too big of a change


B-Air
Smash 4
Frame 11-26

Duration: 55

Brawl
Frame 10-43

Duration: 39
Hoo boy, one of the real big changes here outside of Usmash. Changed Bair from a zoning tool to tack on % to a kill move that couldn't even properly link with itself until just recently. No matter how I look at it, straight nerf until they tinker with the duration of the move some more and maybe damage too.


U-Air
Smash 4
Frame 5- 6
Duration: 38

Brawl
Frame 5-6
Duration: 45
Decent buff here, angle landing lag and hitbox the same most likely.


D-Air
Smash 4
Frame 26-41

Duration: 56
Brawl
Frame 16-38

Duration: 52
6 frames less of the hitboxes staying out and 4 frames more of landing lag due to FG complaints, otherwise same move outside of the last hitbox having a small burst hitbox pop out of nowhere that hits all around him. Even above. Unable to autocancel though is immediate nerf.


Neutral-B
Smash 4
Frame 21-24

Duration: 43 (Miss/Hits not here)

Brawl
Frame 17-20

Duration: 39(When Misses)

Egg Appear after Hit: 46

Duration: 49 (When Hits)

The start up was nerfed in Smash 4 cause reasons while endlag of it isn't too bad, still a nerf.


Side-B
Smash 4
?

Brawl
?
I could put stuff down for both, but not really needed. Buff cause able to jump once in it, speed and turning increased/better, no longer in freefall when popping out, but lasts less if you hit something.
Still a move that could've been changed to literally anything else, only ever used when messing up on neutral B or UpB. Momentum cancelling taken out with it makes it a nerf.


Up-B
Smash 4

?


Brawl
?
Same for Side-b. Up-b's physics is weird. The arcs on grounded egg toss doesn't go as far as Brawl's but it can fall lower offstage/in the air, but the egg can get destroyed by platforms if you're between it and it has an odd occurrence that has the egg do 0/1% against enemies instead of the entire hit 3 out of 10 times most likely.
Less hops too, only + out of it is movement during the egg toss, Is all those changes mentioned worth for a bit of movement during egg toss? I don't really think so, less endlag would be nice too, I believe both are 55+ endlag.


Down-B
Smash 4

Frame 7- 7 (First hit)
Frame 27-28 (2nd hit)
Frame 20-Infinite (Aerial)

Duration: 73


Brawl
Frame 7-29

Duration: 74

Outside of one less frame for endlag, it was given 10% extra shield damage which almost gives him the chance to break an entire shield if they continue shielding. A small buff, but not likely to happen against better players.


Grab
Smash 4
Frame 14-24

Duration: 55
Brawl
Frame 17-27
Duration: 63
8 frames reduced but problems within will be tackled later.

Dash Grab
Smash 4
Frame 11-21

Duration: 67

Brawl
Frame 12-22

Duration: 63
4 frames less, but same as Grab. Later.

Pivot Grab
Smash 4

Frame 10-19

Duration: 64
Brawl
Frame 10-20

Duration: 36
This one deserves a bit of a description. They almost doubled the endlag of our pivot grab and pretty much completely destroyed our already bad neutral by doing this.

I didn't go into every single thing like ITEM THROWS TECH ROLLS LEDGE GET UP OPTIONS.

What does all this mean, well outside of pretty much most characters getting universal % nerfs cause the addition of rage making people able to kill earlier so needing moves to not do too much damage.


Almost everything stayed pretty much the same except maybe a handful or two of frames added or removed on most moves, or adding a pretty change to a move (Yoshi DA a kick instead of headbutt, or his pose at the end of Dair that makes a semi big hitbox pop out of nowhere). Yoshi lost weight as well, keeping him from being able to live longer in a game with rage of all things.

Since they removed ledge invincibility, they decided to move it onto the stage in the form of rolls.
His ledge roll is half invincible and slow of course, gotta remember to make it slow!
His shield rolls are still absolutely horrid just like in all games, so even if we can shield normally we can't spam rolls like everyone else can (except samus as well lol). Thanks I guess?

OoS options we all thought would be a blessing, but little did we know though that the rest of Yoshi's changes were miniscule and didn't really fix anything else about him or even attempt to change up his specials (upB and side-B for example like they did with sheik and so on ) or his moves outside of DA bair and Usmash

Chaingrab removal means our already horrible grabs outside of pivot grab (let's just say we don't know it yet, like August last year still) doesn't give us any reward if we manage to grab em with our slow laggy thing. And then finding out our pivot grab is massively nerfed along with the bair change and already knowing the arc of eggs no longer going almost a full FD distance while grounded destroys our neutral even more.


Now what did Yoshi gain? Guess a fast shield being able to use moves OoS, but can't platform drop now in exchange while everyone else can lol, Utilt chains into Uair if enemy isn't smart enough to airdodge or DJ away.
Dthrow kinda links into Uair if the same thing as Utilt earlier.


Literally a quarter of his game is missing once you choose Yoshi since you might as well go into the match with no grab button at all. A smash game were grabs is love and life, where everyone has either kill throws or kill setups from grab or even both.
Yoshi has neither and horrible laggy grabs.

What makes Yoshi feel like a better character from this game and brawl to some of you people? Is it our DJ being instant instead of having to dip down? OoS options? Getting back to the stage easier since no longer can ledgehog? (Though that also makes it hard to edgeguard people since everyone else can make it back anyways) Him standing up straight so his nose doesn't get hit as often anymore?
Who knows, cause right now I certainly don't and still feel like he'll fall to maybe top of mid tier if patches in the future continue to leave him alone.


I'm genuinely curious on the answers, is it more of "Yoshi is subpar even if he's kinda close to Brawl Yoshi still while most characters got massively nerfed or not changed at all so they remain not-so-great"
>MK Marth falco changes from brawl to smash 4 for some examples
>snake IC wolf nerfed so hard they were removed from the game
>Characters who got little changed with them similar to Yoshi so they stayed the same or smash 4 mechanics made them better (ganon for nothing changed, still mid tier, Ness nothing changed but Smash 4 mechanics made him not get chaingrabbed by half the cast so now he's top 10 character)
 
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Genuine_Angus_B33F

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I use tap jump with Yoshi. I've played this game since I was 5, so it's a forced habit, but I'm used to it.
However, I have noticed the Egg Jump-Self Gimps, and I did something about it.

:GCCDL::GCCL::GCCUL:C-Stick Specials. :GCCUR::GCCR::GCCDR:

I actually use it by matchup, based off what characters will put pressure offstage (otherwise I use C-stick attack.)
It's a bit tricky because you can't throw them at a low angle, but its saved me enough times to recommend using it.
I've also tested and noticed that you CAN Up-B without jumping, its the same as up-tilting, just trickier, being in the air and trying to aim the darn thing. If it could aim at more angles, I might recommend it
It's also hella trickier to Perfect Pivot into tilts.

What makes Yoshi feel like a better character from this game and brawl to some of you people? Is it our DJ being instant instead of having to dip down? OoS options? Getting back to the stage easier since no longer can ledgehog? (Though that also makes it hard to edgeguard people since everyone else can make it back anyways) Him standing up straight so his nose doesn't get hit as often anymore? Who knows, cause right now I certainly don't and still feel like he'll fall to maybe top of mid tier if patches in the future continue to leave him alone.
You mention all this frame data, all these notes, all of these honest reasons Yoshi is worse than Brawl. There is a very good reason as to why he feels better, and It's very similar to Zelda; she lost a kill move, a use in side B at all, and got laggier, and trust me when I say she is definitely worse than her brawl counterpart, even with Farore's Ladder. And yet I hated playing Zelda in Brawl(before at least) but love her in smash 4. Why?

Yoshi got the same change; he got streamlined.
Everything new about Yoshi, not in terms of Data but in his moves makes him feel like any other character. In brawl he was a unique and campy character; dependent on eggs, edge camping and staying away with fading aerials. Yes, that's more Brawls Meta than anything, but thats the result of optimized Yoshi. It was... okay(?) competitively, but it was wonky casually, and felt like a huge commitment to play. It really wasn't, but you get the idea.

New Yoshi may not be normal. But he sure feels that way. His double jump feels less wonky (I didn't care before, but its a welcome change) He stands up straight (as you mentioned) and he can JUMP OUT OF SHEILD (*GODLY LIGHT SHINES FROM HEAVEN*) You don't see people compare him to campy characters, they compare him to Fox, with similar Up smashes, shield pressuring, and more solid hits. It's less of a better character, more of a better feel.
 
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Delta-cod

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Please refrain from double posting.

They may have normalized Yoshi, but they made him worse. In my opinion, this produces a worse feel. If Yoshi were better, faster, etc. then he would feel good. But some of the lag on things (like pivot grab) just feel so clunky and...bad. It's icky. The start up on Egg Lay gives me the same nasty feel.

But maybe that's just a Brawl vet's opinion.
 

noft

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Please refrain from double posting.

They may have normalized Yoshi, but they made him worse. In my opinion, this produces a worse feel. If Yoshi were better, faster, etc. then he would feel good. But some of the lag on things (like pivot grab) just feel so clunky and...bad. It's icky. The start up on Egg Lay gives me the same nasty feel.

But maybe that's just a Brawl vet's opinion.
Ive never played brawl yoshi nor have a tried another character on smash 4.
with that said, i think yoshi is pretty weak in alot of areas, and i feel like to really succeed with him u have to use more mind games than anything to even get that last stock last minute kill. he is pretty strong in the movement option, the only thing i really dont like about yoshi is his grabs, just slAp on marth's grab from melee and we'll call it a day.
 

Wave57

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Pools for Paragon just came out and my first match is against MVD. Looking for any general advice for the Diddy and Duck Hunt match ups. Anything helps.
 

MrGame&Rock

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hey! I've a couple issues to work out in my Yoshi game and I would like a helping hand.

For one, how do I break my rolling habit with Yoshi? I roll way too much, and the rest of my game is far above the stereotype for a roll-addicted player (I do, in fact, tech those, for example) so if I can stop rolling so much I can improve my game by a LOT. Advice?

Other question involves grab release. It's my go-to because I can never seem to get followups off of Yoshi's throws, especially at higher %s. Do I have any options out of grab release besides double jab?
 

PIXLEsauce

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Other question involves grab release. It's my go-to because I can never seem to get followups off of Yoshi's throws, especially at higher %s. Do I have any options out of grab release besides double jab?
I've seen down B work sometimes.
 

muddykips

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i see people try for jab > usmash, and it works sometimes.

what makes you roll though? theres not much advice we can give about what to do instead of rolling if you dont give us examples of what prompts you to roll.
 

MrGame&Rock

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i see people try for jab > usmash, and it works sometimes.

what makes you roll though? theres not much advice we can give about what to do instead of rolling if you dont give us examples of what prompts you to roll.
Apparently I roll a lot when my sparring buddy (in this case a puff, to the extent it matters) approaches me from the air and attacks with nair or fair. He comes in, and I instinctively roll away and usually get punished for it.
 

PIXLEsauce

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Grab Release -> Jab 1 -> down B or Grab release -> down B?
I'm not exactly sure, but I think just grab release into down B. at certain (higher) % it'll leave the person at just the right position to where a down b off the ground will hit with both hits.
edit: I'm sure you could build some combos around it if you played around in training for a bit.
 
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muddykips

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that sounds like you should be staying in shield and trying for OoS punishes, like nair or fair, or run after and try usmash.

if your shield is too low, ETS can be good for getting space if you need it.
 
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MrGame&Rock

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that sounds like you should be staying in shield and trying for OoS punishes, like nair or fair, or run after and try usmash.

if your shield is too low, ETS can be good for getting space if you need it.
Ive been trying to SH Nair OOS, over time I'll get the input down I think. Also, I'm sorry to have to ask, but what does ETS stand for?
 

Codaption

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Has anyone considered using Dair as a way to condition people? I feel like this could work pretty well, because Dair beats a lot of options out:
-We all know what this thing does to shield... It tacks on a bunch of shield pressure and pokes reliably, meaning that for a short time almost every attack we have will either poke the shield or break it completely,
-Spotdodge doesn't last long enough to avoid the move (unless we fast fall for some unfathomable reason), and
-Rolling in kiiiinda works but we can drift back to catch it and it's a pretty dumb option to choose anyway. Be that as it may, chances are we may need to make this apparent to the other player.

This leaves two options for countering the move: character-specific options and rolling away. At this point, an empty hop becomes a fantastic bait and gives us the opportunity to chase them down and hit them hard. I'm not really sure if we would be able to nail them with Usmash in this scenario, so it'd be fantastic for somebody to test this for me in their spare time, but for the moment I'm willing to go on the assumption that our speed would let us reach them in time. Dash Attack would also be a solid choice; if you guess wrong, it's pretty difficult to punish, and if you guess right there's no way that boot's not gonna connect. We could also empty hop and meet them with an Fsmash should they not realize that rolling in doesn't work.

Thoughts? Criticisms? I feel like this is a solid 50/50 that could work wonders if people began to apply it.
 
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