Meta Colors of Yoshi - Metagame Discussion and Tips

[YoshiStar5000]

You're going to need to actually post your own comment in the future. You can't just quote the OP and add nothing to the ongoing discussion. Please be careful with your posts.

@Phyr The problem with relying on wavebounce/B-reverse/whatever Egg Lay for shield pressure is that it's also very slow and also loses to roll. I don't think it quite solves Yoshi's problems against experienced players. =/

Oh ok. Sorry I'm new to Smashboards

 

[Delta-cod]

Have any of you found a use for Uthrow? It seems pretty terrible ;-;

Only use I've found for it, is that it sets up for a guaranteed tech chase on Battlefield if we throw Captain Falcon under the top platform from 86-117% no rage (I'll eventually be going through every character, and 0 50 100 rage). If you throw him from near the center, he actually can't DI away from the platform to escape (that's with perfect DI anyways. You should be able to catch people with this if you read their DI, or if their DI is slightly off).

It might be a kill setup with rage, but I'm not sure quite yet.

I've done similar things with platforms as well. It's nice, because tech chases on platforms give us good Dair opportunities for massive damage.

 

[Codaption]

That actually sounds like it could be really useful. I'll try to keep that in mind when I bring yoshi to Battlefield.

 

[ividal]

dont know if this has been found by other people, but i just found out that if you Airdodge and then do a bair, it will auto-cancel and yoshi will land with no lag letting us act more faster out of an airdodge, havent seen that much use or found an use but i was thinking that someone here could come up with something we can do with this. Do note that when you do the bair, it wont hit.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That sounds true only because the bair hitbox never comes out.

 

[Codaption]

That might be good for....I don't know, a really super-specific bait?

I can't really see anything coming from this, really. It's the same effect as airdodging and landing regularly.

 

[Delta-cod]

Isn't this better because there are some IASA frames or something on airdodge? It might be helpful in the case of landing with airdodge. Perhaps it's not quite as useful with SHAD.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Yeah if you're forced to use an airdodge really close to the ground you can cancel it to remove the lag. SHAD has plenty of time to end though. Dair has the biggest window

 

[Dpete]

I feel like SHAD could be the defining part of Yoshi's meta that needs to be further explored. We all know how effective SHAD Nair can be, but other characters can do similar things. It's the amount of options Yoshi has out of SHAD that sets him apart. I've seen on this board people suggesting SHAD Neutral B as a shield mixup (B-Reverses make things interesting too). How about SHAD UpB? At the very least, it's a nice retreating option if the above two options look sketchy. And SHAD Uair can help secure those stocks that drag on to high percents (KOs Sheik on stage at 128% with no rage/DI). There might be some uses for SHAD Down B in the mix-up game, especially on weakened shields.

The way I see it, SHAD should always be our first choice in neutral. Using Fair for spacing, UpB to deal with zoners, and get-off-me Nairs for rushdown are the only things that might compete. Educate me otherwise.

 

[Sinister Slush]

SHAD UpB sounds terrible, but frankly we can do anything out of the airdodge, it's just a matter of if we guess right on what they're gonna do.

Continue shielding entire time so we guess that hopefully and get free downb into shield break maybe/neutral b, or if we guess that they drop it thinking they can attack us thinking it's an empty hop when actually airdodge and we punish accordingly with nair or anything.
Frankly, since Nair is 10% and almost never kills anyways, I'd go with 12% Uair prolly for now on just cause more damage even if 14 frames of landing lag, but it's honestly not much 3 frames, wowzerz. I'd go staling Uair if it means getting 11+%

 

[Dpete]

Well, I haven't pulled it off yet, but SHAD UpB theoretically is a way to counter rolls attempting to avoid SHAD aerials. It's just another option.

Also, empty SHADs could possibly be used for mindgames and gauging reactions.

What are the downsides to constantly spamming SHAD?

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's no downsides as much as there is no upsides.
It's a guessing game on both sides and it tends to usually go into our favor cause people keep dropping shield thinking we're just empty hopping towards them, if they start adapting than we need to change it up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Frankly, since Nair is 10% and almost never kills anyways, I'd go with 12% Uair prolly for now on just cause more damage even if 14 frames of landing lag, but it's honestly not much 3 frames, wowzerz. I'd go staling Uair if it means getting 11+%

On that note it can actually combo into itself, so there's that advantage too. In fact because it comes out 2 frames after nair it's practically just as safe on shields. (not as good as a well timed landing nair though)

 

[Dpete]

On that note it can actually combo into itself, so there's that advantage too. In fact because it comes out 2 frames after nair it's practically just as safe on shields. (not as good as a well timed landing nair though)

It doesn't look like a true combo, but SHAD Uair possibly strings into Utilt combos at low percents as well. Positioning of the SHAD Uair is important, making sure the front hitboxes of Utilt connect. You're looking at a sweet 0-50% on some characters.

Looks like at early percents SHAD Uair should become our BnB, while at mid percents we revert back to SHAD Nair to freshen Uair for kills.

Speaking of Uair for kills, I'm still putting in work regarding Fair Stage Spike -> Uair and Utilt -> Uair kill confirms. There seems to be a lot of variables, and I'm beginning to question training mode's combo counter. Unfortunately, I'm on 3ds and I don't have anyone to test with, so I need help.

With the Fair stage spike -> Uair, the amount of rebound off the stage depends on the percent the opponent is at and where you hit them; for example, catching Mario on stage is a true combo kill at 108%. Catching him at the apex of a short hop, he bounces off the stage farther, and thus dies earlier (at least 105%). Catching at the apex of a full hop, I've gotten kills at 103%. If anyone can confirm these, that'd be great.

Also, the top-end percents that it remains a true combo are very questionable. For Mario on stage, I've gotten the training mode counter to considers it a true combo up to 153%. This is where I question the combo counter because Mario floats in the air soooooo long. I really need humans to test it; DI probably messes things up.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

The problem with fair is that it can be teched. Besides that keep in mind that if you meteor them while they are in the air they can act immediately after bouncing, no real combo potential unless they are on the ground.

 

[Dpete]

I did not know about acting right after the bounce from the air, thanks. In regards to teching, how often are the highest level players going to react quick enough? Just from personal experience playing and watching mid-level games, these bounces are rarely teched. Given the frequency I see missed off-stage spike techs, which are far more predictable IMO, I think the Fair spike -> Uair is worth fishing for. It might be the safest kill option Yoshi has. I have much more success with it than smashes or down-B.

Back to my original post, I'd really like someone who can test with humans to confirm the latest percent that Fair stage spike -> Uair is a true combo on Mario.

 

[Delta-cod]

The problem with fair is that it can be teched. Besides that keep in mind that if you meteor them while they are in the air they can act immediately after bouncing, no real combo potential unless they are on the ground.

The cool thing about stage bounce is that, even though the opponent can act right after it, they really are stuck on the trajectory for quite some time. You can't move side to side after it very easily. So while we might not have a true combo, we have a pretty simple easy trap to capitalize on.

 

[Neutricity]

Hi! I wanna aspire to pick up Yoshi but would someone mind explaining to me the Capt. Falcon, Sonic, Megaman, Ness Match ups? The matchup I'd like to learn about most is Ness but any info is appreciated or if you could point me into the right direction then that'd be great

 

[Delta-cod]

Hi! I wanna aspire to pick up Yoshi but would someone mind explaining to me the Capt. Falcon, Sonic, Megaman, Ness Match ups? The matchup I'd like to learn about most is Ness but any info is appreciated or if you could point me into the right direction then that'd be great

We haven't quite gotten through very many Match up discussions yet. I'll give you some links so you can look around in the threads more geared towards these discussions:

Central MU thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-nose-knows-yoshi-mu-portal.371672/

We don't really have anything for Falcon. If you go to the Falcon boards and start reading from this post, you can find some discussion though: http://smashboards.com/threads/come-ahwn-captain-falcon-mu-thread-lap-6-luigi.399692/#post-19060104

Sonic: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-sonic.396456/

Mega Man: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-yoshi-vs-mega-man.374468/

Ness: http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-discussion-ness.404741/

 

[noft]

So did they take out TREGGING (run ->shield into ledge ->jump cancel egg toss to grab ledge) or something? I tried to do it 10x this morning and couldn't get it to work. Anyone else have this problem. *nvm question was answered by forum digging*

ive been trying to figure out how to improve my neutral game and it comes down to being patient, this is the worst for me, so ive decided to have fun moving about the stage in fancy ways, fun & patient. lol, i figured that ppivotting out of SHFF looks nice as well, has anyone had any luck with trotdancing with yoshi or snap back on ledges yet?

 

[Delta-cod]

Tregging has been removed, due to a universal (for the most part) patch update that prevents characters from sliding off the stage with specials.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's a sad loss, but we'll just have to move onto half circle to grab the ledge quicker now.

 

[noft]

It's a sad loss, but we'll just have to move onto half circle to grab the ledge quicker now.

what about down be reverse, that is pretty fast just as long as u dont miss the window for reverse

so i just realized how the buffering works in this game. i would always wonder how to set up for jab into upsmash, but would throw out two jabs. little did i know i could push a 1 time at the end of any animation and the jab would come out. dacus out of jab is so good for kills.

 

[YoshiStar5000]

So did they take out TREGGING (run ->shield into ledge ->jump cancel egg toss to grab ledge) or something? I tried to do it 10x this morning and couldn't get it to work. Anyone else have this problem. *nvm question was answered by forum digging*

ive been trying to figure out how to improve my neutral game and it comes down to being patient, this is the worst for me, so ive decided to have fun moving about the stage in fancy ways, fun & patient. lol, i figured that ppivotting out of SHFF looks nice as well, has anyone had any luck with trotdancing with yoshi or snap back on ledges yet?

On most characters in Nuteral you wanna use eggs often when both players are on opposite sides of the stage. Be careful though. Against faster characters, they have time to get in on you because of the lag on that move. On faster characters, Maybe try short hop Fair or Nair? (or full hop sometimes)

 

[Dpete]

Terrible results for Yoshi at Evo. I was holding out hope that someone would emerge from the depths, but it's looking more and more like Yoshi is barely a threat in the current meta.

 

[Pinuzzo]

Terrible results for Yoshi at Evo. I was holding out hope that someone would emerge from the depths, but it's looking more and more like Yoshi is barely a threat in the current meta.

Were there any big Yoshi's besides Sky? He's the only one I recall seeing.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Was gonna say not the right thread, but it's actually pretty fitting.
Sky wasn't a big name either.

 

[YoshiStar5000]

It sucks I was hoping the same thing.

Yoshi has a lot of potential but it isn't shown :/

I've done similar things with platforms as well. It's nice, because tech chases on platforms give us good Dair opportunities for massive damage.

I think Dthrow is better in any situation. Good for reads and kinda does everything Uthrow does too... Which isn't much

 

[Christobelle]

Well I was wondering how our boy did and so far I've haven't been able to find a list of exact EVO placings with their characters, but I did find this video on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKabzwKDnBo

I was pretty impressed by FreeElfy. Wonder how far he made it. He was pretty impressive in these matches.

Would love to know who made it the farthest so I can study their gameplay & hopefully learn something from it.

Omni played a pretty good Yoshi, too.

 

[muddykips]

I think Dthrow is better in any situation. Good for reads and kinda does everything Uthrow does too... Which isn't much

...to be honest, i almost never use dthrow? usually i just throw em to the side for positioning.

if their shield is low i sometimes try for a grab release into downb, but that's about it.

 

[YoshiStar5000]

Yeah I usually grab release and do things from there. But if I see an air dodge habit, I sometimes Dthrow to Usmash.

...to be honest, i almost never use dthrow? usually i just throw em to the side for positioning.

if their shield is low i sometimes try for a grab release into downb, but that's about it.

Dat Yoshi is a god O_o

...to be honest, i almost never use dthrow? usually i just throw em to the side for positioning.

if their shield is low i sometimes try for a grab release into downb, but that's about it.

Wait


Muddykips?


The #1 ranked Yoshi on Smashladder?

 

[muddykips]

to be fair, i think other yoshis here could get to where i am on smashladder without much trouble. i mostly just go on ladder cause i don't have a scene nearby, ahah...

also after watching freeelfy play on stream, i was kind of surprised not to see him in top 32. did he get customed to death or something?

 

[GSM_Dren]

Have any of you found a use for Uthrow? It seems pretty terrible ;-;

Only use I've found for it, is that it sets up for a guaranteed tech chase on Battlefield if we throw Captain Falcon under the top platform from 86-117% no rage (I'll eventually be going through every character, and 0 50 100 rage). If you throw him from near the center, he actually can't DI away from the platform to escape (that's with perfect DI anyways. You should be able to catch people with this if you read their DI, or if their DI is slightly off).

It might be a kill setup with rage, but I'm not sure quite yet.

So I am pretty intrigued by this setup and decided to test it out for a couple other characters. This was done in training mode, so no rage or diminishing returns with yoshi at the exact center of BF. The percentage is at which the opponent is prior to u-throw. DI is to the immediate left or right.

Spoiler

Character | (1) No DI, land on plat. | (2) DI, land on plat. | (3) No DI, jump | (4) DI, jump | (5) No DI, will not tech if mashed | (6) DI, will not tech if mashed
Bowser | 36 | 42 | 54 | 59 | 74 | 82
DK | 60 | 67 | 106 | 111 | ? | 143
Capt. Falcon | 79 | 87 | 118 | 123 | 140 | 145
Yoshi | 31 | ? | 46 | 48 | 69 | 72
Mario | 40 | 46 | 71 | 78 | 95 | 102
Luigi | 31 | 37 | 49 | 55 | 69 | 73
Sheik | 60 | 67 | 79 | 85 | 97 | 102
Diddy | 55 | 62 | 98 | 102 | 123 | 127
Fox | 66 | 73 | 91 | 96 | 108 | 116

(1) without DI, the opponent will land on the platform
(2) with DI, the opponent will land on platform
(3) without DI, the opponent will be able to jump instead of landing on the platform
(4) with DI, the opponent will be able to jump instead of landing on platform

Optional data (not as important):
(5) without DI, if tech is mashed, it will result in air dodge onto platform instead of tech
(6) with DI, if tech is mashed, it will result in air dodge onto platform instead of tech

For simplicity, / will refer to: No DI / DI

At 79 / 87, Falcon will land onto the platform after being u-thrown. If the opponent would rather jump instead of tech they can do so at (3) / (4). So, Falcon is able to jump out at 118 / 123. Falcon is able to tech onto the platform from 79 / 87 to 139 / 144 if he mashes tech, otherwise if he mashes tech at (5) / (6), 140 / 145 he will instead do an air dodge onto the platform and be put in landing lag resulting in more time to punish.

What does this all mean?! Yoshi can theoretically tech chase falcon from 79% (provided he does not DI) / 87% (if he does DI) all the way to the percentage before he is unable to jump out. Therefore, when his percentage is 79 / 87 - 117 / 122 before being u-thrown, you can cover his tech options. After that, at 118 / 123, he is simply able to jump after being thrown.

---

As you can see I grouped this table by weight form superheavy weight to light weights. I believe there are several variables involved (weight, height, fall speed, platform interaction, etc.), so finding a pattern is difficult. Take for example Bowser and DK, they're not that much different but the setup percentages for them are significant. Falcon and Yoshi weigh the same and the list goes on with Mario / Luigi.. Sheik / diddy / Fox are kind of a bit more similar, but still the pattern is not conclusive.

Anyway closing thoughts, is this a worthwhile project to continue? It is highly situational with BF / MV (see platform heights) being the only stages worth using for the setup (I think) and that rage was not involved in testing. I know the table and explanation can be a bit confusing so let me know if I need to reword stuff.

*Weird thing I found with testing U-throw against yoshi, at 16% he will "soft" land onto the platform and can immediately input an action, this works until 31% where he will hard land onto the platform.

** D-throw is another option to do instead of u-throw, however it sends them off to an angle and works at different percents to make them land onto the platform. More complicated, so I don't think it is worth testing.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

So it doesn't work on the lower platforms?

 

[Delta-cod]

I think Dthrow is better in any situation. Good for reads and kinda does everything Uthrow does too... Which isn't much

It's not better in every situation, due to the slight differences in the throws' knockbacks. Sometimes Uthrow sets up for the platform chase better than Dthrow.

Also, please refrain from double (and triple) posting. Use the edit function if you need to add more.

 

[GSM_Dren]

So it doesn't work on the lower platforms?

I'd imagine it would work, but at much lower percents. The top platform of battlefield is nice because its at about the apex of the uthrow for the characters with percentage already tacked on.

--

The two next discussions I will be talking about are Dair applications and [custom]: egg launch distances.

Omni did a great job in his match against his opponent, and used Dair effectively to get the damage in. The majority of the examples I used were snippets from his match.

Slush Can you update and remove the "Can't Kill" part? Dair can kill off to the side and also to the top at higher percents.

Dair, yoshi's lovable flutter kicks
Frame hitbox (or just move first out) | 26-26 (6 hits) / 39-40 (7 hits) / 41-41 (Last hit) | Landing lag 28 | Duration 56

Dair applications:
1. Recovering to the stage (high or low)
2. Onto opponent on platforms
3. Covering roll/dodge/tech options - SH dair

1. Recovering to the stage - (High) when above the opponent on the stage, Dair is an okay option to get back to the ground. It is not the greatest due to the fact that it can get outprioritzed by the opponent's aerial options quite easily and that landing lag is pretty crippling.
(Low) When recovering from under the ledge, yoshi can unleash a flurry of kicks to cover his landing onto the stage. It is risky because the opponent can hit you when you are rising, but the reward can be amazing. Even if the opponent shields through it, you can land past them.

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2. Onto opponent on platforms - my favorite option out of the three. When the opponent is on a platform and see you coming in, they may have a tendency to just shield or stay in place. Stages like SV / BF are great because you can full hop Dair on the platforms, and drift away enough to not land on the platform (and possibly do an uair after the dair for more pressure).

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3. Covering roll/dodge/tech options - SH dair is probably the most risky out of the three because you get punished badly if it whiffs. Getting that outta the way, with its long hitbox duration, it does a good job at covering rolls, dodges, and techs. Getting a good read is satisfying!

3.1 Covering getup options also falls under this category. 1

using dair to punish getup options from the ledge is really nice. if you know what the opponent usually does from the ledge, it's pretty simple to get a hard punish with dair. heck, you can just throw it out over the ledge and it's safe if you don't do it too much.

--

[Custom] Egg Launch distances

So I've been using egg launch since iunno when, and like it much more over default egg lay. It is not an upgrade to default, but rather a sidegrade, so to each their own. Anyway here's some frame data of the two.

Egg lay 21-24 7%
Egg launch 20-23 10%

Egg launch is one frame faster, and does 3% more damage. It shoots the opponent a set distance (based on the character) and they're able to break out faster than default. I enjoy using it because it gives yoshi stage control by launching the opponent off to their doom.

I did some labbing a couple days ago because I wondered if the distances change based on rage/character and this is what I found. Rage does not affect the distance traveled, and as mentioned earlier, characters have different launch distances.

I tested this with the opponent standing on the edge with the almost-falling animation, and with yoshi as close as possible. For the majority of the cast, the max distance traveled is roughly 3/4th the distance of FD. The max distance is of course without any DI from the opponent.

Minimum distance is with the opponent at 0% and also DI in the opposite direction of being launched. The distance noted is where the character pops out from the egg relative to starting point. This information is not as important to know because in reality, the opponent will be trying to mash out and subsequently DI in whichever direction. For the majority of the cast, the minimum distance ranged from 1/8th to 1/2th the distance of FD.

I will not list every character down, only the outliers (I put mario as an example). Also do note that these values are not exact distances, just a rough estimate:

Spoiler

Character | Max Distance of FD | Min Distance @ 0% w/ DI
Mario | 3/4 | 1/4
Yoshi | 3/4 | (negligible)
Bowser Jr | 5/8 | 1/4
Wario | 1/2 | (negligible)
GnW | 3/4 | (negligible)
Sheik | 5/8 | 1/4
Marth | 7/8 | 1/8
Fox | ~5/8 | 1/4
Greninja | 5/8 | 3/8
Jigglypuff | 1/2 | ?? *Goes past the ledge from original location
Ness | 5/8 | 1/8
Megaman | 1/2 | 1/8
Ryu | 5/8 | >1/2
Small mii | 5/8 | 3/8
default mii | 3/4 | <3/8

As you can see, Wario, Jigglypuff, and Megaman only travel about 1/2 the distance of FD compared to the rest, with reasoning unknown. Jiggs is interesting because she can DI in the opposite direction and pop out way past the ledge. Marth looks like he gets launched the farthest. Yoshi, Gnw, and wario go a negligible distance at 0%. Let me know if you guys need clarification.

 

[muddykips]

can i add something to dair applications?

using dair to punish getup options from the ledge is really nice. if you know what the opponent usually does from the ledge, it's pretty simple to get a hard punish with dair. heck, you can just throw it out over the ledge and it's safe if you don't do it too much.

 

[Pinuzzo]

I have to disagree with preferring egg launch over egg lay. Launch might be preferred for a few match ups, maybe Little Mac, Falcon, and Ganondorf, but overall, lay gets you more damage (you can always get in at least a jab combo when they are trapped) and if you are lucky you can hit them with a down B, u-smash, or u-air when they pop out, potentially netting a kill. I think you are way more likely to get a followup with lay than with launch in 90% of match ups.

 

[muddykips]

i almost never get a substantial punish out of egglay against good opponents. they know to exit the egg while inputting a horizontal direction, so they're too low for uair, and by the time you position yourself for downb / usmash they'll have enough sense to just exit the egg away from you.

and even though regular egglay can give you the opportunity to tack on some more damage, it doesnt give you the same amount of stage control that egg launch does. getting the opponent off the stage is a really, really good thing, and it can even lead to earlier kills that regular egglay doesn't offer.

also lol @ jiggly's egg DI

 

[GSM_Dren]

I have to disagree with preferring egg launch over egg lay. Launch might be preferred for a few match ups, maybe Little Mac, Falcon, and Ganondorf, but overall, lay gets you more damage (you can always get in at least a jab combo when they are trapped) and if you are lucky you can hit them with a down B, u-smash, or u-air when they pop out, potentially netting a kill. I think you are way more likely to get a followup with lay than with launch in 90% of match ups.

i almost never get a substantial punish out of egglay against good opponents. they know to exit the egg while inputting a horizontal direction, so they're too low for uair, and by the time you position yourself for downb / usmash they'll have enough sense to just exit the egg away from you.

and even though regular egglay can give you the opportunity to tack on some more damage, it doesnt give you the same amount of stage control that egg launch does. getting the opponent off the stage is a really, really good thing, and it can even lead to earlier kills that regular egglay doesn't offer.

also lol @ jiggly's egg DI

Yup my thoughts too muddykips. With egg lay, opponents who are able to control their DI proficiently and pop out when they want to can come out at a better position than yoshi. Or they can also weather the storm of the weakened damage of usmash / down b, and pop out with invincibility and retaliate with their own move. At high percents it becomes a guessing game for yoshi, and we can actually lose stage control if the opponent knows what they're doing.

Egg launch circumvents this problem by just launching the opponent away from you (usually enough where they are off-stage) creating a better position for yoshi, and a worser position for your opponent. Truly, the only follow up you can get is an egg toss, but what matters most is the stage control you now have over the opponent.