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Meta Colors of Yoshi - Metagame Discussion and Tips

Delta-cod

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I was focusing mainly on the Neutral game here. I could certainly expand a write-up into how Yoshi does with Advantage and Disadvantaged states, and how to transition between them, but those are so MU specific that I didn't want to get in over my head.

That's not a bad idea though. I could certainly cover what a Reversal is in the general sense here, and what Yoshi's main tools for it are (basically just Nair/DJ Armor Nair).
 

Codaption

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Glad I could give a little bit of advice!

As a side note, I put a little more into my earlier post about dash grab and down smash. Just putting it out there.
 
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Delta-cod

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Since you had a few things missing on moves, I'll say some stuff.

Cons for downsmash: Dependent on which hit you're going for, really. The first hit comes out very fast (as you mentioned), but if they shield it or you whiff it's pretty punishable due to you having to finish the animation with the second hit, and then you have just a LIIIIITTLE bit of endlag and oh you're already dead. The second hit has the opposite problem- it's easier to avoid because it takes longer to come than the first hit, but since the move has low endlag it's unlikely they'll get a punish out of hit. It's also not the strongest kill move with either hit- it has decent kill power, but it's not as rewarding as our other smash attacks, especially the sourspot on the tip of the tail.

Pros for Dash Grab: Dash grab functions more like those of characters with tethers. Except it isn't one. Anyway. It's decently fast, not as fast as pivot grab but it outspeeds standing grab at least. Since Yoshi extends his tongue out pretty far (combined with the little hop he does during the grab animation), it's easily the longest grab he has. It also has a bit of a lasting hitbox like standing grab, meaning that it can be confusing for the opponent to tell whether it'll land or not. Overall kind of wonky, but still useful in some regards.
Quoted for ease of finding.

I'm not in charge of the pros and cons section, but I did remember seeing this.
 

CelestialMarauder~

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Little buzzed atm, but imma do my best for the sake of the future of Yoshi metagame.
"These moves have moderate start up, so he is forced to commit to these moves early and frequently is he wants to threaten you with them." Caught a typo there, that should be an if instead of is.

I think you should add a little bit of Yoshi's neutral game options. You did really well explain what the neutral game is, and how Yoshi can usually survive even when forced to abide to other character's neutral games, but I think there would be some merit in talking about how our neutral game would work in some matchups where we actually have neutral advantage, and how it works in matchups where we are forced to play by the other guys rules.

Other than those examples I think you're fine.

I'll start working on my Platforms post after this weekend. I'm gonna be incoherent for most of it lol.
 

Delta-cod

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>do my best for the sake of the future of Yoshi metagame
>Points out typo

Ladies and Gentlemen, I've found our savior. :awesome:

I could pick out some character match ups to do more specific examples for. Any suggestions? I'd probably do Sheik and Villager for neutral disadvantage (lose to mobility/walling and lose to camping specifically) and like...Ganon or Bowser for neutral advantage?

I'd definitely need some help with this, since I'm by far not an expert on character match ups in this game, given my lack of activity.
 
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CelestialMarauder~

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Villager and Sheik sound good for disadvantage. Bowerser or ganon also sound good, but maybe if we can think of someone else to add with a slightly different playstle than them for our advantage. I feel like having a variety is good when we're talking about general situations ya know? Maybe uh idk Kirby? Or do we do well enough against marth to say our neutral game > His?

I could help out with Bowser, but tbh I'm sure you would be fine talking about him since we'd both be able to write sonnets on that just off of leftover brawl exp.
 

Sinister Slush

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We can camp him a bit if we feel like it but if he's doing slingshots and rockets it's prolly better to go aggressive when he's throwing out the rocket.

Thanks for getting neutral, we can copy/paste most or all of both your and coda's post or talk for a bit and see what we should add in more or remove some.
Still can't edit or won't be on much till Sunday or Monday so yeah. If you feel like it Delta you could edit in the new title change "Colors of Yoshi" and the Neutral stuff from you two so far whenever everyone comfortable with what we have.
 

Codaption

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What about giving two examples for each neutral strategy, one where we have the advantage and one where the opponent does? That sounds reasonable to me.
 

Delta-cod

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I tried to edit a thread title earlier and couldn't figure out how to do it for someone else's post, so I might not be able to help. I could give it another shot though.

You all can write up examples if you want and we can discuss them. It's a lot for me to go through, and I really don't have the practical experience to do the best job on my own, in my opinion.
 

YoHeKing

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Wouldn't another con for forward smash be that it increases your horizontal hitbox(even when its cooling down) which means if you miss the attack the other opponent has less range to hit you?
 

DragN

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A con for our down smash: The tip of the tail is INCREDIBLY weak. We need to hit up close with it.
Also: The second swipe is slower than the first and harder to sweet spot with.
 

Nikes

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And then there's Usmash where if we hit behind us with it it won't kill, and people can duck under it and avoid it completely because the hitbox being on our feet...
 

Codaption

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Wouldn't another con for forward smash be that it increases your horizontal hitbox(even when its cooling down) which means if you miss the attack the other opponent has less range to hit you?
A PRO for it is that it does the exact opposite while it's charging.
 

YoHeKing

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I know a bunch of pros and cons I could add to this. Dont worry I will later.
 
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We can't reaaaaaally camp him if he just sits in slingshot range and hits us with that between eggs, yeah?
I kinda thought of that as approaching since I'm not going to sit in slingshot range. lol
It's not hard to deal with though since we're fast enough to punish him, and as long as we have platforms we can run away to somewhere since he's slow and can't chase us well.

edit: probably should mention that what Slush said is right:
We can camp him a bit if we feel like it but if he's doing slingshots and rockets it's prolly better to go aggressive when he's throwing out the rocket.
It is usually better to go on the offense if he leaves an opening with the rocket since we win up close (at least in my opinion), but we can camp back as well as he can it's not really "bad" for us.
 
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CelestialMarauder~

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I kinda thought of that as approaching since I'm not going to sit in slingshot range. lol
It's not hard to deal with though since we're fast enough to punish him, and as long as we have platforms we can run away to somewhere since he's slow and can't chase us well.
Real talk i've been saying this, but enough people have been saying we can't so that I don't want to rule anything out yet.
 

Delta-cod

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I have 0 practical experience on the MU. Depending on the range of slingshot we can't really camp the MU though. Perhaps one of you two would like to do that writeup, then? =P
 

CelestialMarauder~

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That's the thing lol, I feel like I might just be playing really bad ones. I'm not sure if I'm underestimating him too much. I might just try to get some games in with someone from the villager boards
 

Jaguar360

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I'm almost done with my thing. I'll make sure to have it ready by Sunday at the latest, then.

I finished my thing!

Edit: If you've read this, please don't just "Like" the post. Feedback is useful, and if you have anything to add or think I'm off on something, PLEASE tell me. Even if it's something like a better way to word something, give it to me. This needs to be as accessible as possible to everyone.

Neutral Game, Advantage, and Disadvantage


Neutral

The Neutral state is perhaps the most important part of any match you play in Smash, so it goes without saying that understanding what it is and how to work it is crucial to your progress as a player. Naturally, the first thing to do is understand what Neutral is. The obvious answer is that it’s the state where neither player is at a distinct advantage or disadvantage. Not quite the most illuminating statement, so let’s try to identify it in terms of gameplay.

Imagine the game has just begun. You’re playing on Smashville, so you both spawned on the ground, on opposite ends of the stage from each other. What’s the first thing that’s going to happen? Odds are, both you and your opponent will start moving back and forth, weaving into and out of each other’s range, getting a feel for the other’s habits. You’ll probably also see a lot of threats, either from movements or from attacks actually being thrown out. If your opponent is Diddy, he might start walking you out with SH Fairs, looking to poke you with the move to try and knock you offstage. If your opponent is Sheik, it’s very likely you’ll see things like empty Short Hops from her. She might not be actively throwing out an aerial, like Fair, but the threat of that lightning fast move keeps you from diving right into the fray with her. Alternatively, you could be playing against a character like Villager, who will just keep his distance from you with slingshots, Lloid rockets, and trees.

These are three pretty distinct ways of playing the neutral game, but there’s a common theme underlying all these strategies: your opponent is trying to get you into a situation where you’re uncomfortable, where you’re disadvantaged and they’re advantaged. In other words, the goal of the Neutral Game is to move into an advantaged state.

Advantage and Disadvantage

While these two states are basically complete opposites, they can’t really be discussed in a vacuum. In essence, being in an Advantaged State is having your opponent in a Disadvantaged State, and vice versa. I’ll discuss things mainly from the side of the Disadvantaged Player, since I find it’s a more concrete way of explaining things.

Imagine you’re playing against, say, Fox. He grabs you, winning the Neutral Game, and then he Uthrows you. You now have very few options. You can’t use any grounded options, because now you’re in the air. Looking at your aerial options, we’ll find that Fair, Bair, and Uair are kind of useless now, because they probably won’t hit Fox, since he’s below you. Looking specifically at Yoshi for a moment, you’ll see it’s probably a bad idea to try Dair, since its range is poor. Nair is okay if he gets in close. You could try Down B, but that’s pretty laggy, so it could end poorly. Basically, you don’t have much you can do, and even what you have is pretty poor. This is the essence of being in the Disadvantaged State.The Disadvantaged State occurs when you are cut off from most of your options, and those that you have remaining are pretty poor. Naturally, the Advantaged State is the opposite of this. The Advantaged State occurs when you have cut your opponent off from most of his options, giving yourself an easier time obtaining follow ups.

And that’s basically it. The goal of Neutral is to force your opponent into Disadvantage and put yourself into Advantage. So naturally, the next thing to examine is just how to accomplish this goal:

From Neutral to Advantage

While every character tends to approach the Neutral Game differently, there are three general ways that it is played. Before we get into these general strategies, it’s important to understand some terminology.

Stage Control – The effective areas of the stage that a character controls, either by directly being there, or having threatening access to that area. Stage control can be claimed through a character’s physical location, a character’s potential movement, a character’s attacks, a character’s potential attacks, and projectiles.

Threat – A threat is either a physical option being used, for example, Sheik’s using Fair to swipe at you, or the idea that the character could potentially hurt you. The potential part here is key, as it allows you to not actually use a move to take up the space that it would otherwise occupy, allowing you to remain noncommittal. For example, imagine Sheik is Short Hopping in front of you over and over again. Technically, she’s doing nothing, so you could approach and try to hit her. But in reality, she could swing her lightning fast Fair at you at any moment, making approaches risky. The threat of this move is what keeps you out. This allows Sheik to keep all her options available to her and prevents her from needing to actually commit to the frames of Fair. Contrast this with say, Shulk, who would want to use something like Fair or Nair in neutral. These moves have moderate start up, so he is forced to commit to these moves early and frequently if he wants to threaten you with them. Therefore, Shulk is less threatening than Sheik.

Zone – Very closely related to Stage Control, a character’s Zone is the area he or she is directly occupying with attacks. Characters that tend to play defensively rely on Zones and Zoning (the act of keeping up a Zone) to win Neutral. For example, consider Villager. He’ll fire up a Lloid rocket near the ground, forcing you to shield it or jump over it, but he adds in the use of his Fair to occupy the space above the rocket, so jumping is less effective. This space that he continues to occupy with these moves is his zone, and in order to hit him, you must break through his zone. Zones can also be kept up without the need for projectiles. Imagine Sheik staying jusssssssst outside your range and Fairing over and over again. Again, you need to break this Zone to hit her.

Zone Breaker – A movement option, attack, or some combination of both that allows you to break through an opponent’s Zone. These tend to be fast and have long effective range.

Effective Range – The true range that a character has. Taking Fox’s Usmash as an example, we can see that it doesn’t have incredible range while he’s stationary. But since he can run so fast and Usmash out of his run, the Effective Range on this attack is much larger than the move’s hitbox itself. This concept also applies to aerials, which can be done out of a run (you can jump into one), or drift while performing one.

This vocabulary is not entirely standardized everywhere, but it’s convenient to have terms for these concepts instead of having to use long, drawn out explanations every time the concepts need to applied.

With this vocabulary in mind, we can easily list the three main strategies people use in Neutral.

1. Walling the Opponent Out.- In this case, characters will tend to use fast, long ranged, high priority moves to take up space, effectively Zoning their opponent. The wall will tend to force retreats towards the ledge, or just hit you.

2. Threatening the Opponent- This is similar to Walling, except that you tend to not have to actually throw out attacks to zone your opponent. This is very characteristic of fast characters, who use their movement speed to give them large Effective Ranges, allowing them to exert a lot of stage control.

3. Camping. – This strategy involves the use of projectiles to force your opponent to approach you. When your opponent is forced to approach in this manner, they are typically disadvantaged (airborne, shielding, etc.) since they must maneuver around your projectiles to approach. Characters that camp also tend to have good anti-air or defensive options to send their opponents away after they’ve broken through the projectile wall.

Smash is quite a dynamic game, so naturally people’s Neutral games are not always this cut and dry. However, I think being familiar with these three concepts is a good starting point for thinking about Neutral.

The Neutral Game and Yoshi

With the generalized Neutral Game discussion out of the way, we can move on to thinking about how Yoshi interacts with all of these concepts. In a vacuum, Yoshi tends to fall under category 2 for the Neutral Game. He generally wants to threaten people with his moves, since he lacks a fast, long ranged attack to wall people with, and his camping game is a bit too slow to be relied upon. He also lacks amazing defensive options to complement his projectiles.

However, characters do not exist in a vacuum, so it is essential that we consider Yoshi’s Neutral Game in relation to other characters. And looking at Yoshi through this lens is what really causes me to love the character. Yoshi is not a character that has just one possible game plan that he always sticks to. Yoshi is flexible, and he can handle every style of Neutral Game out there. This means it is not easy to shut Yoshi down and give him an impossible match up. He always (for the most part) stands a fighting chance if you’re smart enough and patient enough.

This flexibility comes with some downsides, however. Yoshi is basically a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. Since he is flexible in his Neutral Game, he can do a little bit of everything. However, he is not amazingly strong in any of these aspects. Therefore, he is frequently forced to play other people’s games. For example, if Yoshi goes up against a character with a strong walling game, he’s forced to try to beat that walling game. He will not be able to play his own game and force the opponent to change their tactics.

Usually, when a character cannot play their own Neutral Game, they lose the match up, unless they reap fantastic rewards when they actually win Neutral (think of Ice Climbers in previous games). Normally, we’d expect Yoshi to be an incredibly weak character since he is almost always forced to play his opponent’s game, and his punishment game (Advantaged State) doesn’t tend to cripple his opponent. However, Yoshi’s options are generally strong enough to contend with opposing Neutral Games, and he almost always has an answer to what his opponent is trying to do. This makes it so that he’s not actually disadvantaged by having to play other characters’ games, because he’s more than capable of doing so. And on the off chance that you’re playing a match up where Yoshi decides how the Neutral Game will be played, you’ll find that Yoshi dominates.

Yoshi is a very hard character to shut down, and it’s this strength that allows him to remain competitive. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to provide general advice for playing Neutral as Yoshi, because it all depends so much on who you’re fighting against. In general, the basic idea is to use your mobility to get around your opponent’s traps and to put yourself at Advantage. Against faster characters, you’ll need to stay grounded more often, as Yoshi can have trouble landing, so jumping for Short Hop Egg Tosses and Fairs becomes risky since your opponents can just run under you. Against slower characters, Yoshi can control the air with his mobility and long reaching Fair, or set up frame traps through the use of Short Hop Egg Tosses. Against characters that camp, Yoshi can utilize his mobility to outcamp them using aerial Egg Tosses, or just use his mobility to weave through the projectile walls and punish his opponents. He can even jump out of shield now, allowing him to approach characters from the ground.

It’s important to realize that all match ups with Yoshi are unique, and you must be very knowledgeable about all characters to see great success with Yoshi. You’ll want to know what your opponent’s general game plan for Neutral is, where the weaknesses in that plan are, and how Yoshi can exploit them. Smash is a series of minigames for Yoshi, each one a bit different from the next. However, if you’re patient enough and if you put in the time, you’ll definitely see success using this character.
I found your analysis of the neutral game very useful for Yoshi and my other characters. I think rushdown is a possible fourth way to play neutral for certain characters like Pikachu who are very quick and have safe approaches (Quick Attack and n-air in Pikachu's case).

What grounded moves do you find effective for Yoshi against the fast characters in neutral? D-tilt, Jab and Egg Throw mostly?
 

Codaption

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Couldn't villager just clank with our eggs using his slingshot anyway? We kind of HAVE to try approaching, as he can break our projectiles while still being able to wall us with his.
 
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Yes, you would have to aim them around the slingshot, or avoid the slingshot completely. He can't wall with it because we can run under it or duck under it when SH auto cancelled, and we can avoid the range with our mobility. Also dash attack against the backside of his shield is a safe cross up which can get us to the other side of the stage if we're trapped, and can't get to a platform somehow.

ps: Delta this is why I wouldn't want to do a write up. I forget about small details like this. My mind set for something like this is "use eggs a lot" but obviously there's more to it then brainless egg spam. Then when I try and explain my thought process I say silly things like "There's nothing he has that beats out egg spam besides approaching" when there's at least a bit more to it then that.
 
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shapular

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I like to jab jab dash attack fast characters.
I like jab jab dash grab. A little bit more unsafe but works often enough to be worth using. If they're too far away for the grab, you should be able to react and go for the dash attack then.

SH nair is also good against fast characters. It's technically not a grounded option, but you can use it like one. It's fast and has good priority. You can even quick double jump it for some armor.

Actually, that's an approach I've been considering recently. Short hop at them, dj nair right at the edge of their hurtbox. It loses to long-ranged attacks like swords but probably absorbs a lot of counterattacks and beats grab. The major con is that it puts you high into the air without your double jump, which is not a very good place for Yoshi to be. Thoughts? I'll try this out some more myself in the next few days probably.
 

Codaption

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I like jab jab dash grab. A little bit more unsafe but works often enough to be worth using. If they're too far away for the grab, you should be able to react and go for the dash attack then.

SH nair is also good against fast characters. It's technically not a grounded option, but you can use it like one. It's fast and has good priority. You can even quick double jump it for some armor.

Actually, that's an approach I've been considering recently. Short hop at them, dj nair right at the edge of their hurtbox. It loses to long-ranged attacks like swords but probably absorbs a lot of counterattacks and beats grab. The major con is that it puts you high into the air without your double jump, which is not a very good place for Yoshi to be. Thoughts? I'll try this out some more myself in the next few days probably.
Using an attack removes our super armor, but otherwise that's doesn't sound too bad. If it lands, it's easy enough for us to return to the ground by fastfall.
 

CelestialMarauder~

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Couldn't villager just clank with our eggs using his slingshot anyway? We kind of HAVE to try approaching, as he can break our projectiles while still being able to wall us with his.
Angle it up between villagers shorthops. ALSO IF YOU SHORT HOP AN EGG AND ANGLE IT RIGHT IT WILL GO OVER ANY HORIZONTAL PROJECTILE IN THE GAME. **** the platform writeup I need to do a writeup on eggtoss lmfao. Idk why people are sleeping on this move despite how fantastic the coverage is now.
 

Sinister Slush

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Everything about egg toss is nice.
Except for only 2 usable hops (barely count 3rd one), ledge sometimes eating the egg with absolutely no pop, platforms eating the egg and 1% eggs.

That aside, an egg throw write up could prolly be better than Platforms for now. I'll update this thread around night time, my planned day so far is relax and watch playoff finals for league and watch most of my matches and look for sick nasty nosescope combos for a top 10 in my city hype video.
So keep discussing stuph everyone and just tell me what to add or change in any of anyones write ups they suggest.
 

shapular

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When I started playing Yoshi in this game I spent like 10-15 minutes every day practicing egg throws from every distance and angle. When I'm not rusty I can get near 100% accuracy on egg throws. I think everybody should practice to get to that level if they're not already there. It's very important to playing Yoshi for controlling space in both the air and the ground.
 

Codaption

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Honestly, I need to start using it more myself...I'm usually more focused on getting in close, but the beauty of eggs is that we can pretty much switch to playing defensively and back again almost instantaneously.
 

noft

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Ive realized that the use of reversals, are used more in mind games.once youve conditioned your opponent ehh , here itll be better to just watch some things instead. My feedback on the thread will come once i read everything again.

 

CelestialMarauder~

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I think this might be the wrong thread for this lol. Kind of offtopic with the current eggtoss/zoning discussion.

Edit: So I'm hoping I can have the majority of this eggtoss writeup finished sometime this week. It's gonna be General tips and tricks, A brief explaination of zoning, Offensive eggs, Defensive eggs, and how to practice. That sound good for now?
 
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Sinister Slush

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Sounds good I'll add egg toss section, right now editing the thread.
I'd like to delve into Delta's post on the states and all that, but honestly picking it apart will take too many hours for me on what's right or wrong and don't feel like doing that right now so I'll do it tomorrow maybe.

For now, I'm just gonna copy/paste. A good portion of the cons/pros posted past couple days are situational or things that work randomly.
Yes Usmash is weak behind, but believe it or not I've had random kills with it as if I hit with the sweetspot of it.

Be sure to write up a section on the bad things about it too, I brought up quite a few good points.
 
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CelestialMarauder~

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The eggtoss we have now is a Hybrid of his Melee and Brawl eggtoss with some added utility. We have the recovery factor of brawls eggtoss, the followup potential/aim of Melee eggtoss, and a new property of absolute control of our mobility in the air. All in all it makes for a fantastic move. Frankly, it's his best move. You can fight me on this all you want but it is true. It sets up your damage, it sets up your kills, it stops people dead in their tracks, it can arc around characters with better projectiles and hit them anyway etc etc. This move is a wonder and we should be glad we have it. After reading through all of this I hope you will come to better understand this move.

CONS

To preface I we're gonna clear the table of all this sweet stuff and get salty for a little bit, because nothing is perfect and eggtoss has quite a few imperfections.

It is slow. I'm not talking about how fast the egg moves, I'm talking about the startup lag of the egg itself. You'll be sitting there vulnerable for quite a while before the hitbox shows up.
You are also pretty vulnerable for a while after the egg shows up too, so if you decide to eggtoss a bit too close for comfort you will get punished. Probably pretty hard too.
It has 2 hitboxes that deal 1% and 5% respectively. A lot of times, you can expect to land one of these hitboxes instead of both. And that one hitbox is more often than not, the 1% hitbox. It sucks but you can't really do anything about it.
If you start this move at the wrong time while going through a platform, or comming too near the ledge, no egg comes out but you still go through the entire eggtoss animation. This just seems like a coding oversight. I'm sure there's at least one other character this happens to (i'm pretty sure it happens with megamans upair), but it doesn't seem like an intentional feature of the game.
Last con is that it is a pretty mediocre recovery move. The first jump is nice, and as long as you mixup you shouldn't have any problems recovering, but the fact that first jump is the only one that gives any significant boost, the other jumps might as well not matter in most case.

Now that we got that out of the way lets get back on track.

BE THE EGG

Go into training mode right now. Go on, I can wait. Now stand in the middle of the stage. I want you to throw an egg that lands on top of one of the surrounding platforms. Did you get it? Cool do the other 2. Now from this same position I want you to throw an egg that goes past the edge of the stage in either direction that goes through, or under one of the battle field platforms. If you can't do this, you're not using yoshi to his full potential.

A lot of Yoshi's do not actually realize the full extent and range of his tosses. They use jumping eggtosses so much that they aren't entirely sure how far an egg can go on its own.

Next hop onto one of the bottom platforms, from on top of that platform, try to hit the spot directly under the the other platform, yes it is possible from anywhere on top of that platform. Keep trying at it.

I believe knowing exactly what points on the map you can hit with egg toss, and knowing how to hit it is the key to using this move properly. If there is a spot that you cannot hit, you should know how to position yourself in a way so that you can hit it. You should never miss the exact position on the stage you were aiming for. That is a technical skill that you can work on by yourself. Hitting eggs on players is a different story. You should not aim directly for a player, you should aim either where you think they will be, or where you do not want them to go.

Pretty much, learn how to get eggs to where you want them to be before you try learning where you should throw them.

TIPS N TRICKS
  • Turn tap jump off to get the full use out of Eggtoss
  • Tilting the controlstick controls the direction of the egg, holding special controls the force thrown.
  • Aerial eggs give a jump to the first 3 eggs thrown before hitting the ground. The 1st being the most significant, the next 2 being next to nothing and everything else being literally nothing
  • Egg Jumps will cancel your double jump. (By extension, eggs thrown after the first 3 will not cancel)
  • You can preform a short slide when using grounded eggtoss by dashing inputting a jump and then inputting an eggtoss(we call this Eggtoss Slide or ETS for short)
  • You can ETS to slide off stage with an egg (The slide does not count as your first egg jump either)
  • If you position yourself properly, you can ETS to the ledge. This can also be done backwards.
  • If you let go of the ledge then immediately throw an egg (assuming this is your first eggjump) you can land onstage
  • Using your first and second egg jumps, you can let go of the ledge and toss 2 eggs before regrabbing the ledge.
Zoning

People see projectile spam and think of it as cheap, without realizing why they think that. Say you're playing a game as a Ganondorf vs a Villager on FD. The Villager is up a stock but is at high percents and you want to close it out. He decides to throw a Gyroid at you. Your options are as follows. Block it, avoid it, beat it out, or take the hit. Clearly you don't want to take the hit so that option is out of the picture. You decide to block it. Great job, he sent another gyroid at you. You think to yourself ok well "my shield won't last forever and I need to get in a bit faster", so you decide to beat them out. This worked once, but failed the next 2 times. Finally you decide, "**** it, I'll just jump over them". You avoid every Gyroid but the second you get close to him he effortlessly throws and slingshots you away only to get to the other side of the stage and start over again.
Now lets not look at what's wrong with this picture and look at what actually happened. Ganon wanted to approach, but the projectiles were limiting the way he could do that, so that by the time he found a way to get around the projectiles being thrown at him, the Villager knew what he was going to do and reacted accordingly before he could do it. That is zoning. Zoning is the use of projectiles to control space and limit your opponents options. At high levels of play in fighting games, the damage is rarely the reason a projectile is thrown. They're used as zoning tools to put the game's pace in your control. So whenever you throw an egg you shouldn't think of it as trying to hit them, but trying to stop them from hitting you. Keep zoning in mind in the next sections.

Eggs on Offense

The most common choice and probably the one everyone is most familiar with. To start off yes, we do have guaranteed followups out of eggtoss. What can we combo into out of eggtoss? Well...literally anything we are in immediate range to hit as long as we react fast enough. If you don't think you're in range you probably aren't, but a double jump nair is just about always safe to go for if you aren't sure.
  • All Aerials
  • Footstool -> Down b
  • Upsmash
  • Up/Ftilt
  • Another Egg (this one is pretty much frame perfect and not worth it if anything else is in range)
(Since eggs do have more knockback at higher percents, keep in mind that grounded options become impossible as the match goes on, and aerial options may begin to need your double jump to connect)

These followups can be done off of grounded or aerial eggs, however, due to positioning, there is no practical way to combo off of grounded eggs unless the opponent is in the air, and even then it's a stretch. What you want are Short hopped egg tosses. Out of a short hop, Yoshi can throw 2 eggs before landing. These 2 eggs are actually slightly different in the ways you can/should follow up. First egg gives you the most leeway to decide to back off and go on the defensive. This egg also puts you in a better position to try following up with an egglay if they shielded it. Grounded options are hard to position and nearly impossible to connect in a real match off of the first egg. The second egg is far easier to follow up on if it connects, and is the only reliable way to land grounded options.

When deciding on if you should be using aggressive eggtoss you should look at the options the other character has, and your opponents playstyle.

When to use:
  • Against Immobile characters
  • Against reflector characters (I'll explain)
  • Against grounded playstyles
  • Against flawed projectile games
  • Against counters
Immobile characters are free in this sense. They can't really avoid the eggs, and whether you even manage to hit the egg for follow up, there isn't much that can be done to stop you.
Reflector characters is a new strategy i've been working on. You condition them to try reflecting eggs, but then intentionally whiff an egg and go for a hard punish.
This is mostly here because grounded eggs do not work too well on grounded playstyles for the most part. Not always a good idea. Use your judgement.
If your opponent has a bad projectile game, but they're trying to use it anyway do this. Every single time. It is free damage. Does a villager want to spam gyroids instead of slingshot at mid range? Do it. Megaman forgetting he has pellets? Yep. Fox thinking this is brawl and trying to triple lazer? Falco? Basically if they are trying to zone you out improperly, it is free damage.
When I say counter i mean like Marth Shulk etc. If you suspect a counter toss an egg to bait out the hitbox and then follow up with something heavy.




I'm not really done yet, still fixing it up and what not. Tell me if i'm off base or if I missed anything.

I still have to finish up the offensive egg section, but I'm also adding at the very least a section on how to use eggs defensively. I want to do videos showing the egg aiming stuff but I don't have the time yet
 

Sinister Slush

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I'm not really good in the essay or write up areas.
Only reason I can do MU write ups half decently is cuz I've wasted like 7+ years on this game, so I'll just say it lewks gud. I'll add the rest whenever you're done.
 

Jaguar360

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I noticed that there isn't a section for Yoshi's throws in the OP. I guess I'll do a little write-up.

F-throw does 7% damage and sends the opponent at about a 45 degree angle in front of Yoshi. While it seems unremarkable, it is one of the two most damaging throws and is good for positioning and keeping momentum. Like Yoshi's other throws, it has no guaranteed followups, but it can set up well into a running Up Smash or an F-air.

B-throw does 7% damage and sends the opponent at about a 45 degree angle behind Yoshi. This throw is generally less useful than the others, but when Yoshi is facing away from the ledge, it can force the opponent into an edgeguard situation. This is the hardest throw to get a followup off of in general.

U-throw does 5% and sends the opponent straight above Yoshi. It has little hitstun, making it easy to jump, airdodge or attack out of, but the positioning is perfect and an U-air, which other attacks won't beat. On a baited air dodge, Yoshi can use d-air or U-smash to punish.

D-throw does 4%, slamming the opponent into the ground and sending them upwards. While it does the least amount of damage out of the throws, it sets up into U-air very well. The U-air is not guaranteed, however, and can be avoided by an air dodge or DI.
 

Codaption

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It IS worth knowing what Yoshi can squeeze out of throws, but in general the reason why there isn't much on his grab game is because it's so poor. Not just because of how mediocre our throws are, but also because going for a grab is both very difficult and very risky.
 

Doublenickels

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I'd also add that on the occasion that you grab, it seems more beneficial to pummel to grab release and set up a jab-jab dash attack (or egg, or dash grab) or jab-down B. Depending of course on where your opponent is released. I try not to grab unless I know I have it, and even then, it seems better to opt for neutral B if possible.
 
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Jaguar360

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Well yeah, I get that, but mediocre grab/throws or not, you gotta grab at least once in a while and knowing your options can lead to good rewards. Besides, neutral B can't cover you all the time since you can't do it OoS or during a dash.

And yes, pummeling is definitely one of the better options with Yoshi. I usually do about 3 then F-throw if they don't escape by then and if that starts to stale, I either pummel till the grab release or D-throw/U-throw depending on the situation.
 
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