Meta Colors of Yoshi - Metagame Discussion and Tips

[Codaption]

Discovered a neat trick on platforms where you could fastfall and immediately egg toss to simulate something like sh egg toss. I'm past the point where I expect this to be unknown, so I'm just going to jump straight to the question: how can this be applied?

A few specific notes... It's a little faster than normal sh egg toss due to bypassing jumpsquat frames, and I noticed that on BF the hop is high enough to land you right on the top platform from the sides (not true for dreamland 64, the platform is too high). Could see this being used to weave around the stage more effectively, maybe help to reatreat to get out of tight situations.

 

[YoHeKing]

I actually known about it(not much about it). All I know about it is its faster then short hop egg toss and if done correctly you land back on the platform with no lag at all.

Also whats this about fixing up the OP?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Finished a block advantage chart for Yoshi's attacks. You can compare against pre-patch to know how much moves have improved. Let me know if you have any questions about how shields work.

Think you can trim it down to a table format? Hard having both up and trying to compare, along with what's the most important stuff in it only. (maybe last 5) If dunno how to table, here's how just in case.

[table
Last table being /table
table=Head stuff | more stuff | stuph [table
[/table

 

[Axion]

I noticed something interesting today while labbing in training mode. Yoshi's dair when cancelled into the ground early pushes opponents back(less traction makes for longer pushes). When this is done on platforms it actually pushes the opponent off the platform and into a pratfall animation making an untechable situation occur. You can then drop off the platform and ff dair to get a jab lock. This works at any percent as far as i'm aware and can thus guarantee a kill set up for a charge u-smash or start utilt to uair combos at low percent.

I'm wondering though if this is a safe option to do though as using dair like this could be unsafe if shielded but definitely good to cover platforms and set up combo or kill situations.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yes, Yoshi's Dair landing hit will make targets pratfall. As for using it to jab lock, you do really need to be careful not to use it in a way that targets get hit more than three times, because landing beside them will be yet another hit that extends the lock.

 

[Delta-cod]

I noticed something interesting today while labbing in training mode. Yoshi's dair when cancelled into the ground early pushes opponents back(less traction makes for longer pushes). When this is done on platforms it actually pushes the opponent off the platform and into a pratfall animation making an untechable situation occur. You can then drop off the platform and ff dair to get a jab lock. This works at any percent as far as i'm aware and can thus guarantee a kill set up for a charge u-smash or start utilt to uair combos at low percent.

I'm wondering though if this is a safe option to do though as using dair like this could be unsafe if shielded but definitely good to cover platforms and set up combo or kill situations.

Well, if you have an opponent above you on a platform, you can try for a Full Hop Dair. If they shield it, you can simply not fast fall and drift away while shredding their shield, maybe getting a shield stab in there towards the end. If they get hit, you can fast fall and go for the landing hit as you've described. In this way, Dair isn't an (especially) unsafe option.

If you're trying to fall onto someone from above them, this is definitely not a good idea. You lose your flexibility with the Fast Fall/Drift options.

 

[Axion]

Yes, Yoshi's Dair landing hit will make targets pratfall. As for using it to jab lock, you do really need to be careful not to use it in a way that targets get hit more than three times, because landing beside them will be yet another hit that extends the lock.

Yeah, I've been working on the timing for dair locks as I've been trying to find its uses to set up kills later or punish miss techs. You just need to start the dair a little later just before you land and ff it. I find its pretty reliable once you get the timing down.

Well, if you have an opponent above you on a platform, you can try for a Full Hop Dair. If they shield it, you can simply not fast fall and drift away while shredding their shield, maybe getting a shield stab in there towards the end. If they get hit, you can fast fall and go for the landing hit as you've described. In this way, Dair isn't an (especially) unsafe option.

If you're trying to fall onto someone from above them, this is definitely not a good idea. You lose your flexibility with the Fast Fall/Drift options.

I stopped doing dair while falling awhile ago because of how many options it takes away so I definitely agree with not using it like that. The full hop idea is interesting though. Possibly a better way to cover the platforms on battlefield and dreamland instead of using usmash from underneath. The main idea of the whole concept was to get a reliable kill set up as I find myself struggling some times against opponents who turtle up.

 

[Sinister Slush]

 

[Axion]

Yeah that would be it. I also found out you can start from the top platform and work your way down getting prat attacks on each platform. I don't think it's true for all characters some can probably make it so you don't fall onto the lower platforms.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Thinking about picking up yoshi, I play wario however I'm rather frustrated with warios reliance on fart as well as my lack of proficiency in landing waft. I like characters with high air speed and space able aerials as well as high kill power and survivability.

My question would be, would yoshi be a good fit?

 

[muddykips]

it sounds more like you wrote those down with yoshi specifically in mind, rather than just stuff you want to have in a character in general.

yeah, yoshi is a good character to pick up, but what are you trying to cover? what characters or things do you struggle against?

for example, if you struggle against diddy, yoshi isn't right for you.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

it sounds more like you wrote those down with yoshi specifically in mind, rather than just stuff you want to have in a character in general.

yeah, yoshi is a good character to pick up, but what are you trying to cover? what characters or things do you struggle against?

for example, if you struggle against diddy, yoshi isn't right for you.

I'm not trying to cover anything. I love warios high air speed and quick moves but hate his reliance on fart. Might consider maining someone else. I want someone that fills a similar role to wario but doesn't have to rely on landing one move.

I thought that yoshi would be a good fit. I love spacing aerials and stuff. I've just been practicing his eggs a bit too, he's a neat character.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not trying to cover anything. I love warios high air speed and quick moves but hate his reliance on fart. Might consider maining someone else. I want someone that fills a similar role to wario but doesn't have to rely on landing one move.

I thought that yoshi would be a good fit. I love spacing aerials and stuff. I've just been practicing his eggs a bit too, he's a neat character.

You need to ask yourself if you like Wario's high aerial mobility, not his speed. Yoshi's acceleration is pretty meh, so he doesn't weave like Wario does. He does have a high top speed, however. The same sort of styles that worked for Wario may not work for Yoshi.

It looks like you've been messing around with Yoshi a little. Do you like the way he feels in the air?

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

You need to ask yourself if you like Wario's high aerial mobility, not his speed. Yoshi's acceleration is pretty meh, so he doesn't weave like Wario does. He does have a high top speed, however. The same sort of styles that worked for Wario may not work for Yoshi.

It looks like you've been messing around with Yoshi a little. Do you like the way he feels in the air?

Yes, He's no wario when it comes to acceleration that's true but a frame 3 nair that deals 10 percent is pretty alluring. I play them pretty differently (only playing yoshi for a single day after all) but I love his aerials. His vertical jump height is also really great so he can catch people high as well. There are quite a few things to get used to though.

Yoshis tools are really good but do often have me scratching my own head. Any recommend guides out there?

I'd say regardless of weather I'm dropping wario temporarily or forever, yoshis fun anyway and I'd love to learn him(?)

 

[Pixel_]

Is this a thing yet?

I accidentally did it on Smashville and it looks interesting.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Okay I still feel like we need some sort of compendium of information because this thread is more of a guide, and the lab thread was more for glitches, but I digress.

Found something "New". Not actually new because i've been doing it for a while now, and other yoshis probably caught on and have done it sometimes too, but I only just got to playing with it and discovered that it's actually a real combo!

Dair > Any aerial.

The last hit of dair has the lowest endlag out of all our moves and pretty decent hitstun, so as long as you aren't touching the ground or you somehow managed to autocancel it, you're free to follow up after it. I mean by itself this isn't that interesting, and the applications are fairly limited, but I found out that if you do an autocanceled double jump dair while someone is standing ont he top platform of BF, you have a guranteed upair at kill percents. I tested it on DK and if you hit him with dair at around 60%without any rage on you, the upair followup is true and will kill.

Edit: Here's a vid of the top platform thing.

Thoughts?

 

[muddykips]

Is this a thing yet?

I accidentally did it on Smashville and it looks interesting.

pretty sure that's already known. it's used in conjunction with that platform super eggroll jump thing that i don't know the name of.

i personally don't like it cause you bounce once you hit the ground, and the angle yoshi goes when he rolls off the platform is kind of awkward. if i want to eggroll to the other side of the stage, i'll just start eggroll from the ground.

the only real use i've seen with it is rolling onto the stage after grabbing the ledge. it serves the purpose of getting to the other side of the stage quickly from the ledge, but even this is extremely situational, not to mention dangerous since you might accidentally start the move too low, bump against the stage instead of landing on it, and fall to your death.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Edit: Here's a vid of the top platform thing.

Thoughts?

Think it's top platforms only this can work, full hop Dair on platforms like BF dreamland SV etc. can't work cause we'll get the landing lag.
The top platform I knew about though, think I got it a lot on T&C first phase of platforms.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Yeah we need a platform like 1 pixel lower for a fullhop dair on BF bottom plats to work, and the combo will not work if you have any landing lag. It does work air to air though. So if you full hop and somehow manage to carry them off the platform, you can still upair, the window is just different.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yeah we need a platform like 1 pixel lower for a fullhop dair on BF bottom plats to work, and the combo will not work if you have any landing lag. It does work air to air though. So if you full hop and somehow manage to carry them off the platform, you can still upair, the window is just different.

Why not try drifting towards the side of the platform to abuse horizontal range of the moves then? It probably won't work if they're centered on the platform, but otherwise you might be able to edge out the combo.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

You can also set it up with DJ from offstage (run off or from ledge). Obviously much more risky since you can get gimped for free if they catch on. You can also do Full hop fast fall dair as a hard read or punish. Not very good option, but it's there.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

It's also a mixup option out of egglay if they have egg jump height out of it. You read their get out option, and hit the dair and depending on their percent you can follow up with another dair if you're fast enough, or go with the safe upair. A good read at low percents can lead to around 70% extra percent

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Is wavebouncing good on yoshi? I feel like his wave bounced egg lays just go over people

 

[Jaguar360]

Is wavebouncing good on yoshi? I feel like his wave bounced egg lays just go over people

Wavebouncing and b-reversing are huge for Yoshi's aerial mixup game. Really makes people question shielding against Yoshi in the air along with d-air.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Wavebouncing and b-reversing are huge for Yoshi's aerial mixup game. Really makes people question shielding against Yoshi in the air along with d-air.

But a wavebounce egg lay just flat out miss grounded opponents.

 

[Pixel_]

Also is wavebounced Up-B worth trying?

 

[Delta-cod]

But a wavebounce egg lay just flat out miss grounded opponents.

You're supposed to do them while landing, not on the way up.

Wavebounced Egg Toss is okay, but not worth stressing over imo. Our drift control with the move is good in general, the wavebounce isn't particularly necessary.

Naturally, all tricks you can gather are worth having, but there should be other priorities imo.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

You're supposed to do them while landing, not on the way up.

Wavebounced Egg Toss is okay, but not worth stressing over imo. Our drift control with the move is good in general, the wavebounce isn't particularly necessary.

Naturally, all tricks you can gather are worth having, but there should be other priorities imo.

do a turn around egg lay while falling? I thought you could only do it at the start of a jump.

 

[Delta-cod]

do a turn around egg lay while falling? I thought you could only do it at the start of a jump.

You can do it at any time.

 

[Yaddl]

Hi there smashboards,
I have been messing around with this for some time and recently discovered that it's possible to do a short-hop fast-fall down b, which essentially looks like Yoshi doing some kind of weird somersault on the ground. This is performed by short hopping and then immediately fastfalling by pressing down, then pressing down again, this time holding B. Example (I apologize for terrible quality in advance, no access to a Wii U atm). The video first shows a normal grounded down B, then a short hop down B, then a short hop fast fall down B. While I honestly can't see any practical implications for this technique, I suppose it could be used as some kind of mixup. I find it pretty cool nonetheless!
P. S. If you're interested, check out this analysis I did on Yoshi's F-tilt on Reddit. I'll be doing another one soon, and posting it here. Thanks for reading!

 

[Delta-cod]

Hi there smashboards,
I have been messing around with this for some time and recently discovered that it's possible to do a short-hop fast-fall down b, which essentially looks like Yoshi doing some kind of weird somersault on the ground. This is performed by short hopping and then immediately fastfalling by pressing down, then pressing down again, this time holding B. Example (I apologize for terrible quality in advance, no access to a Wii U atm). The video first shows a normal grounded down B, then a short hop down B, then a short hop fast fall down B. While I honestly can't see any practical implications for this technique, I suppose it could be used as some kind of mixup. I find it pretty cool nonetheless!
P. S. If you're interested, check out this analysis I did on Yoshi's F-tilt on Reddit. I'll be doing another one soon, and posting it here. Thanks for reading!

That's not actually a SHFF you're doing. You can't begin a FF until you've hit the apex of your jump. What you're really doing there is canceling your jump with an aerial Down B. This can be done just by inputting Down B once airborne. I do notice a difference between your second and third Down Bs, but I'm unconvinced its due to the change in input.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

Anyone help with neutral? I find I don't know what to do vs plays who know how to punish yoshis aerial egg throws. I'm new to this character and don't understand his neutral tools all that well.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's some info written by Delta in the OP on the Neutral state (albeit a bit outdated now)
In terms of neutral, if they're punishing your aerial egg tosses or any aerials you're throwing out, than you probably need to switch to an offensive ground based playstyle since you're getting beaten in the air.

This mostly happens with Yoshi when he's against Diddy as a good example where we need to be less Fair or Short hop egg toss happy and focus on shielding their aerials to try and punish with OoS options, throw single jabs out, or even just raw running Up smashes or use spaced tilts to get chip damage in.

 

[Yaddl]

Quick little thing I noticed: doing a short hop -> immediate air doge -> down air will always autocancel the dair, making it kinda useful for acting quickly out of empty short hops.

 

[Sneaky boy Nick]

I feel like I can't get my grounded eggs to go very far. what's the best way to do that?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Grounded eggs aren't supposed to go far.
That was brawl days when they'd almost go across the entirety of FD, the advantage of less distance on grounded eggs is they have better angles to choose from and go lower than Brawl's ET (if done off a platform ledge etc.)

For reference on Brawl's trajectories from grounded egg tosses

 

[Skitrel]

I think it's worth looking into uses for missed techs on dragging people into the ground with bair.

We've all improved a significant amount and I'm having a relatively easy time doing this at-will now. It combos into just about everything on a missed tech and egg roll is apparently a guaranteed followup against a tech.

Seems to have a lot of uses that have been overlooked, works better as a retreating move rather than trying to catch people with all 3 hits because when you're retreating that third hit wouldn't have the knockback to kill anyway.

It's got utility and is easier to do than a lot of the things other characterboards are implementing in their competitive gameplay. Seems more optimal and safer in a lot of conditions barring the characters that have fast ground speeds.

I also think there's some utility to the last hitbox frame of our fair - This actually appears to knock opponents horizontally behind us, with some concentrated attempts to change my muscle memory I can hit it deliberately quite frequently.. Seems to catch people DIing the wrong direction if you've got your back to the blast zone. What's odd about this is that the framedata doesn't support it, so I assume it's a quirk of where our centre of mass is during the spin or something. Either way it visually looks correct as Yoshi's head is pointing backwards at that point of the attack. I'm finding some situational uses for it.

 

[Fireball1031]

So i was labbing and i found a way to fit together 2 jab locks. first a short hop air doge nair at around 20-30% then fair jab lock. After this do a sh fair and get the spike. This has a low window to tech. This means you can lock them with up to 3 hits of your down air. Which after that you can punish with anything you want, dair, uair>upair, charged smash attack,down b. This combo can get them from 20-30% to around 100%.i feel like this setup is very practicle, using one of his mos used moves ,nair.

 

[AirJordans]

I also think there's some utility to the last hitbox frame of our fair - This actually appears to knock opponents horizontally behind us, with some concentrated attempts to change my muscle memory I can hit it deliberately quite frequently.. Seems to catch people DIing the wrong direction if you've got your back to the blast zone. What's odd about this is that the framedata doesn't support it, so I assume it's a quirk of where our centre of mass is during the spin or something. Either way it visually looks correct as Yoshi's head is pointing backwards at that point of the attack. I'm finding some situational uses for it.

Wow this is really interesting. Any video of it for reference? I'm super interested in what this is like

 

[DunnoBro]

Okay, I know how this is gonna sound but hear me out. Let's have an honest to god discussion about egg roll.

Traditionally, we've viewed it as a medium risk/low reward move with no real purpose except yolo approaches and misinputs leading to certain doom. However, with the shieldstun changes making OoS options less of an issue, along with the needles nerf, I think it has some great applications.

Exactly what is egg roll good for? Pretty much either hitting a non-shielding/landing opponent, or applying shield pressure while just using it to move away.

With yoshi already having fair, dash attack, and egg toss to punish a non-shielding enemy, the mobility egg roll provides means less risk is involved in most situations.

And what about how it flows with his kit? Personally I feel egg roll was -designed- to work in tandem with egg toss.

Why?

Egg toss pretty much loses to an opponent who's just gonna approach anyway. And needing to run away to properly space it is an issue too.

But using EGG ROLL to stuff approaches and demand the opponent shield/prepare their own stuffing tools sets up a new minigame of "am I gonna egg roll into you, juke you out, or just cancel it and egg toss?"

Look, I'm not a dedicated yoshi man nor am I a particularly good player. Only 13th on the md/va pr, but when my mario can be going even with diddy's and then my yoshi can be bodying them by getting the banana and egg roll/toss camping I think there might be something to this.