Meta Colors of Yoshi - Metagame Discussion and Tips

[Sinister Slush]

It's an interesting thing I never thought of with egg roll following up on egg toss, but dunno if that can be the case since Egg toss has almost a full second of lag (53 I think?) and smash 4's egg roll does a small hop when doing a grounded one before taking off where as Brawl's was just egg roll immediately (not speed up but just in it right away no bounce)

Think the best thing to use egg roll for is basically if you're on a platform and just get your one 9% hit in and jump away, to roll around and maybe hit an opponent trying to land, as you said.
Or just use on the ledge to counter someone's ledge get up? Not too sure if egg roll clanks with ledge attacks but my guess would be no most likely, so maybe it can deal with ledge jump/ledge get up maybe with us reacting to the ledge jump maybe with the egg roll jump.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's an interesting thing I never thought of with egg roll following up on egg toss, but dunno if that can be the case since Egg toss has almost a full second of lag (53 I think?) and smash 4's egg roll does a small hop when doing a grounded one before taking off where as Brawl's was just egg roll immediately (not speed up but just in it right away no bounce)

Well, remember the start-up egg roll animation is the same regardless of which direction you're going in. When I plan on just trying to juke someone out for egg toss, I dash into them and egg roll but go away from them and to the ledge (prime egg camp spot)

Unless they approached during the exact time it was revealed yoshi was egg rolling away and not into them, you have a free egg toss. And if they did approach in that time, you retain the freedom to just egg roll back into them towards the other side of the stage. It's a pretty deep process but generally the reward is in yoshi's favor. (Unless their dash attack just stuffed your attempt entirely but only risky long range ones should be challenging that bubble consistently)

This also gives you info that they are kind of gung-ho about approaching, so next time just egg rolling into them might be the answer.

IMO, at very high percents (110+) egg roll puts people at a better angle for frame traps than dash attack or egg roll

Or just use on the ledge to counter someone's ledge get up? Not too sure if egg roll clanks with ledge attacks but my guess would be no most likely, so maybe it can deal with ledge jump/ledge get up maybe with us reacting to the ledge jump maybe with the egg roll jump.

I've tried that, not only is the timing extremely difficult, but it seems pretty negative on hit. Better off just egg tossing.

Also, egg roll hitting someone's shield near the ledge is VERY unsafe. Which is another reason why I feel roll + toss work together. Toss gets people out of the corner, roll punishes them for not coming out right.

Furthermore, egg roll has the tendency to snipe people's landings before they refresh their jumps. Making it imo a superb landing mix-up tool. It especially helps vs people with lots of air mobility but little range like sheik, fox, mario, etc.

Characters I've found it particularly helpful vs: Diddy, Fox, Falcon, Ness, Little Mac, Olimar, MK, Mario/Doc
Characters I've found it mostly still useless: Rosalina, Lucario, Villager, Pacman, ROB
Characters I've found it helps but when used primarily as a juke for egg toss or pure landing catching: Cloud, Luigi, Sonic,

 

[Codaption]

Exactly what is egg roll good for? Pretty much either hitting a non-shielding/landing opponent, or applying shield pressure while just using it to move away.

Yoshi has much more reliable, safe, and overall better options for the first use, and they can grab you out of it so it's really not good as a pressure option unless they're scared. Covering landings is something, though- it's not really safe except at higher percents, but since I myself am fond of Uair kills I might try that out a little.

But using EGG ROLL to stuff approaches and demand the opponent shield/prepare their own stuffing tools sets up a new minigame of "am I gonna egg roll into you, juke you out, or just cancel it and egg toss?

Canceling it into egg toss is risky, since you're experiencing ?? amount of endlag from ending the move (doesn't say how much on kurogane but it's a noticeably longer period than the move's startup, which is frame 31. Aka, there's a decent amount there) and the 15 frames of startup on egg toss. If they're not quite a bit of distance away when you end the move, that's punishable on reaction, and if you roll away from them to create that distance that just widens the window within which they can interrupt you.

Yes, you can use it to stuff approaches, but if that's working then why not just use dash attack instead? It's functionally similar, but faster and has a lot less commitment to it. You also have Fair, which is pretty safe and something most people are going to respect.

Well, remember the start-up egg roll animation is the same regardless of which direction you're going in. When I plan on just trying to juke someone out for egg toss, I dash into them and egg roll but go away from them and to the ledge (prime egg camp spot)

You'd honestly probably be better off just running away from them towards the ledge in that scenario. That little hop the move does is punishable on reaction, so even if it catches them by surprisea competent opponent is probably just going to grab you before you have a chance to roll in either direction; at the very most, it'll work once. Dash turnaround is faster and leaves more of your options open, and since egg roll has more than a second's worth of combined startup and endlag it's actually slower. Trust me, I just timed it in training mode as I typed this.

Fading Fair is probably a better choice than either of those, though. It's slower, but at the same time they absolutely have to respect it so it's basically free distance regardless.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yoshi has much more reliable, safe, and overall better options for the first use, and they can grab you out of it

Nope. Not a proper speed egg roll since the shieldstun changes at least. The only characters that can shieldgrab it are super wides like dk/bowser with their backs to you and they powershield, or rosalina with a luma to slow it down for her. (so basically always)

It is punishable OoS by a good few characters but it makes no sense to be getting grabbed out of it. It's a constant hitbox, only pivot grabs or super good ranged grabs should do that.

Canceling it into egg toss is risky, since you're experiencing ?? amount of endlag from ending the move (doesn't say how much on kurogane but it's a noticeably longer period than the move's startup, which is frame 31. Aka, there's a decent amount there) and the 15 frames of startup on egg toss. If they're not quite a bit of distance away when you end the move, that's punishable on reaction, and if you roll away from them to create that distance that just widens the window within which they can interrupt you.

If they're that close then yea, don't egg toss. You should only be using it to get away like I said, due to the demand it has on them to sit in shield it actually is less punishable than regular dashing and jump canceling egg toss in most situations.

In general if they're rushing you down, turnaround yoshi bomb is your fastest/most rewarding option (if you expect a grab anyway) Ftilt if an attack.

Yes, you can use it to stuff approaches, but if that's working then why not just use dash attack instead? It's functionally similar, but faster and has a lot less commitment to it. You also have Fair, which is pretty safe and something most people are going to respect.

Dash attack isn't pseudo-safe on shield and doesn't let you retain as many options for jukes. You dash attack, you miss or hit their shield and you are getting punished. Egg roll needs to be stuffed to be beat, totally different situation.

You'd honestly probably be better off just running away from them towards the ledge in that scenario. That little hop the move does is punishable on reaction, so even if it catches them by surprisea competent opponent is probably just going to grab you before you have a chance to roll in either direction; at the very most, it'll work once. Dash turnaround is faster and leaves more of your options open, and since egg roll has more than a second's worth of combined startup and endlag it's actually slower. Trust me, I just timed it in training mode as I typed this.

I don't think you quite understand the spacing you'd be using this. Essentially it's best when they're not quite at the ledge but also not quite in your face so you have space to mix it up. And no, it is not punishable on reaction by most characters except when poorly spaced. The main factor is dash attacks and other burst mobility options, though generally dash attacks need to go pretty far.

The actual movement of dash turnaround might be quicker but not while retaining said hitboxes.

Fading Fair is probably a better choice than either of those, though. It's slower, but at the same time they absolutely have to respect it so it's basically free distance regardless.

Nah, characters like ness, little mac, and falcon play a heavy cqc neutral game which tends to stuff fair without even really trying. Egg roll however can beat these options and make fair a more reliable option.

 

[Codaption]

Nope. Not a proper speed egg roll since the shieldstun changes at least. The only characters that can shieldgrab it are super wides like dk/bowser with their backs to you and they powershield, or rosalina with a luma to slow it down for her. (so basically always)

It is punishable OoS by a good few characters but it makes no sense to be getting grabbed out of it. It's a constant hitbox, only pivot grabs or super good ranged grabs should do that.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean shieldgrabbed, I meant just. Grabbed. You can literally just grab them out of it. The thing has no range at all, most characters with half-decent grab range should manage.

It also just gets trashed by disjointed moves in general, which wouldn't even be that hard to time unless said disjoint is abysmal; really any move with range has the potential to eat it hard (not really sure if can clank or not but if it's something strong that really won't matter). There certainly wouldn't be much incentive to not do so, at least until higher percents since you're not wrong on the angle it sends you at.

This means that no, you don't have to sit in shield against it or stuff it to beat it out. Which should take care of you second and third posts.

I don't think you quite understand the spacing you'd be using this. Essentially it's best when they're not quite at the ledge but also not quite in your face so you have space to mix it up. And no, it is not punishable on reaction by most characters except when poorly spaced. The main factor is dash attacks and other burst mobility options, though generally dash attacks need to go pretty far.

The actual movement of dash turnaround might be quicker but not while retaining said hitboxes.

Not only is dash turnaround still safer in this situation, but the difference in overall speed is even more pronounced. Egg Roll doesn't have hitboxes until it touches the ground, i.e. frame 31. Yes, it's tougher to punish on reaction here, but dash turnaround is literally unpunishable here.

(I also forgot to mention before that giving up stage control in this way is not really a good idea. Yes, it opens the gap between you, but you sacrifice a good chunk of your options as a result and once they get in you have your back to the wall.)

Nah, characters like ness, little mac, and falcon play a heavy cqc neutral game which tends to stuff fair without even really trying. Egg roll however can beat these options and make fair a more reliable option.

Yyyyyyeah no. Ness I can see, since his fair has both a bit of disjoint and multihit properties that can help him catch the move before it comes out, but even then he'd still have to read it and if he didn't he can't punish it. Falcon and Mac do not have either of these to their name, so for them they're in the same boat as the rest of the cast- that being being unable to challenge fading fair specifically because doing so is a horrible idea.

Really, just trying to punish fading aerials in general is a bad idea. Against characters with airspeed like ours, anyway.

 

[Pixel_]

Will focusing on gimping help our killing problem? I was watching gameplay of Raptor and all of the failed kill setups was depressing
Also I totally got bidou PPs down, and I'll tell you guys the result of overusing it on For Glory.

 

[DJlive]

Will focusing on gimping help our killing problem? I was watching gameplay of Raptor and all of the failed kill setups was depressing
Also I totally got bidou PPs down, and I'll tell you guys the result of overusing it on For Glory.

I think many have said this but we don't actually have a killing problem. Jab to usmash, fsmash, dsmash, downb are all usable depending on spacing. Utilt/dthrow to uair/bair, fair stage spike with no tech to uair all work. Then you also have pivot fsmash and running usmash spacing.

That said, you're not utilizing Yoshi's tools to the fullest if you're not playing off stage. Ledge trump bair, fthrow/bthrow nair/sour spot fair/et to fair spike, nair/fair spike denials are all really good ways of not only killing but getting the kill early. The last two are really good against Ness killing them at 40%.

 

[Pixel_]

We might have kill setups, but I still feel like they don't work enough. Jab > anything misses a lot, Uair rarely kills without rage, stuff like that. Usmash also doesn't kill very often for me, but I could just be staling it too much. I'll definitely give some of those setups a try, though.

 

[DJlive]

We might have kill setups, but I still feel like they don't work enough. Jab > anything misses a lot, Uair rarely kills without rage, stuff like that. Usmash also doesn't kill very often for me, but I could just be staling it too much. I'll definitely give some of those setups a try, though.

The only way Jab misses for me is when they ff shield/counter it. You have to know the precise spacing. Jab has two properties, the face to face one pushes the opponent back, the arms length one draws the opponent in. Knowing your spacing counts so you know what to use. If it's f2f Jab, fsmash, if it's al Jab, usmash. If between, I find dsmash works. It's a conscious effort to know your spacing. Oh and jab dsmash kills on the ledge pretty early since it has weird properties that's hard to di.

Don't just keep running usmash, that just begs punishing. That's why I always Jab/nair/et/fair to reset staling. Also know that all of Yoshi's aerials also become kill moves in certain scenarios.

EDIT: I've noticed though that once my opponent catches on, they pull out the shield/counter. If you've used jab to smash more than twice, it seems smarter to charge the Smash just until the opponent drops the shield/counter. This also resets the opponent in predicting what you would do. So you mix up charging and not. Since people tend to di away, I do fsmash more. But if they Di up more, try doing usmash more. If they think they can beat it with a frame 1-3 attack like jab, do dsmash more since it comes out quickest and will beat out the attack.

Do note that even not for the kill, these moves do well for damage. So that way, you can trick the opponent more in which you would use.

Also, if you do fsmash/dsmash, it sets up well for fair spike setups. If you usmash, it sets up well for a possible uair read.

I feel Yoshi's strength is that because he has little guaranteed combos, he's good with mixups making him a pressure character like Sheik.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean shieldgrabbed, I meant just. Grabbed. You can literally just grab them out of it. The thing has no range at all, most characters with half-decent grab range should manage.

It also just gets trashed by disjointed moves in general, which wouldn't even be that hard to time unless said disjoint is abysmal; really any move with range has the potential to eat it hard (not really sure if can clank or not but if it's something strong that really won't matter). There certainly wouldn't be much incentive to not do so, at least until higher percents since you're not wrong on the angle it sends you at.

This means that no, you don't have to sit in shield against it or stuff it to beat it out. Which should take care of you second and third posts.

You can only be grabbed out of start-up or during slowdown/turnarounds in general. Otherwise it's a hitbox and thus unbeatable via grab. (A pivot grab in the direction yoshi is going can work but at that point yoshi just getting hard read and a DA accomplishes the same thing)

As for disjoints, in general they are higher lag moves that can be baited/juked out fairly easily as there's usually a certain spacing they must use them for max efficiency. Luckily, most disjoint chars don't have projectiles or superb mobility so it's safe to just juke them out.

Not only is dash turnaround still safer in this situation, but the difference in overall speed is even more pronounced. Egg Roll doesn't have hitboxes until it touches the ground, i.e. frame 31. Yes, it's tougher to punish on reaction here, but dash turnaround is literally unpunishable here.

It's not safer in all aspects since the opponent has to guess if you're going away or into them. This is just downright irrefutable, while you may claim the risk/reward is skewed, the mix-up opportunity is there. It's simply not possible to punish egg roll on reaction when properly spaced. You have to remember the 13~ frames of reaction time + 5 frames of controller delay + the frames of the move they're reacting with. A frame 31 move with mix-ups halfway across the stage isn't THAT punishable by human reaction time.

(I also forgot to mention before that giving up stage control in this way is not really a good idea. Yes, it opens the gap between you, but you sacrifice a good chunk of your options as a result and once they get in you have your back to the wall.)

Yoshi already sacrifices stage control very easily due to poor ground presence. He's mainly an aerial fortress type who is comfortable anywhere on the stage.

Yyyyyyeah no. Ness I can see, since his fair has both a bit of disjoint and multihit properties that can help him catch the move before it comes out, but even then he'd still have to read it and if he didn't he can't punish it. Falcon and Mac do not have either of these to their name, so for them they're in the same boat as the rest of the cast- that being being unable to challenge fading fair specifically because doing so is a horrible idea.

Really, just trying to punish fading aerials in general is a bad idea. Against characters with airspeed like ours, anyway.

Falcon's bair, and jab can beat fair. Which is 2/3rds of their neutral game. Mac's smashes also trade very unfavorably with fair, and mac is a heavy cqc fighter capable of throwing out pretty much any grounded moves he wants in neutral.

Also, no. Ness does NOT have to read fair at all. Ness is a fortress character who's neutral is almost entirely dash/shield grab, oos nair/fair, and dash attack. Nair can sometimes even punish fair oos when shield grab cannot. Ness can simply be playing his fortress based neutral and be stuffing Yoshi's. (In case you were wondering, no. PK fire cannot punish egg roll. You can easily recognize the start-up, roll away, then roll back in to punish his endlag)

If there's one thing I understand, it's the neutral game. And some characters just stuff yoshi's without even trying due to their CQC based button hitting neutrals stuffing his fair and egg toss, making him rely more heavily on riskier options like DA, Egg lay, dash grab, etc.

Egg roll irrefutably safely challenges mindless CQC button hitting neutrals like that, whether or not it's helpful in high level play is still up for discussion but at mid-level I have extremely little doubt.

For reference, I've tested egg roll vs PR players like Remzi (#1 in md/va) and plenty of other PR players like Tension and xanadu regulars in general, while it's considered pretty hilarious and "janky" the general consensus is that it does in fact appear to have some genuine applications since it's awkward, and scary punishing it because so much as misspacing a dash attack after it hits their shield can mean a yoshi bomb.

 

[Codaption]

You can only be grabbed out of start-up or during slowdown/turnarounds in general. Otherwise it's a hitbox and thus unbeatable via grab. (A pivot grab in the direction yoshi is going can work but at that point yoshi just getting hard read and a DA accomplishes the same thing)

As for disjoints, in general they are higher lag moves that can be baited/juked out fairly easily as there's usually a certain spacing they must use them for max efficiency. Luckily, most disjoint chars don't have projectiles or superb mobility so it's safe to just juke them out.

Grabs are considered to lose to hitboxes because of their generally low range and "priority," if you will- grabs have something comparable to transcendent priority, where they can't clank with hitboxes and if they trade will just leave the other person stuck in a grab release animation with a bit of extra percent tacked on (which is usually, quite obviously, a lost trade). However, they don't have some weird property that makes it so that they can't grab a hurtbox if a hitbox isn't there. You can definitely time a grab to nab a rolling Yoshi and avoid this kind of situation entirely.

As for disjoints... Dtilt of just about every swordsman in the game, many of which set up for combos. While you can jump over these, a few of them have ftilts that can still punish you and you may get eaten hard if you get read. A number of characters across the cast have low-lag ftilts, many of which can be angled- spacies, Greninja and Shiek for example (Shiek can't angle hers, but it's going to hit you either way anyway so it really doesn't matter).

You could also punish a juke-out with a dash attack or a running Usmash, although of course this can be predicted and accounted for by just rolling back more. Against characters who don't have a reliable low-lag answer to it, this is something useful to keep in mind.

It's not safer in all aspects since the opponent has to guess if you're going away or into them. This is just downright irrefutable, while you may claim the risk/reward is skewed, the mix-up opportunity is there. It's simply not possible to punish egg roll on reaction when properly spaced. You have to remember the 13~ frames of reaction time + 5 frames of controller delay + the frames of the move they're reacting with. A frame 31 move with mix-ups halfway across the stage isn't THAT punishable by human reaction time.

This could easily be simulated by just running at or away from them at random times, which would again be more effective al across the board. Commiting to Egg Roll not only takes away all of your other options, but it gives the opponent a visual cue that says, "Hey, this is a 50/50 situation."

Yoshi already sacrifices stage control very easily due to poor ground presence. He's mainly an aerial fortress type who is comfortable anywhere on the stage.

This I will cede. Watching a few more Raptor matches and noticing his positioning habits made me kind of realize that this was a bit ignorant to assume.

Falcon's bair, and jab can beat fair. Which is 2/3rds of their neutral game. Mac's smashes also trade very unfavorably with fair, and mac is a heavy cqc fighter capable of throwing out pretty much any grounded moves he wants in neutral.

Also, no. Ness does NOT have to read fair at all. Ness is a fortress character who's neutral is almost entirely dash/shield grab, oos nair/fair, and dash attack. Nair can sometimes even punish fair oos when shield grab cannot. Ness can simply be playing his fortress based neutral and be stuffing Yoshi's. (In case you were wondering, no. PK fire cannot punish egg roll. You can easily recognize the start-up, roll away, then roll back in to punish his endlag)

I may have messed up terminology here, honestly, it is very hard for me to remember what's a fading aerial and what's a retreating aerial. I was referring to Yoshi's use of Fair while moving backwards away from the opponent, as opposed to using Fair and then moving backwards- punishing the startup on the former alone is somewhat difficult due to Yoshi's airspeed, and trying to punish the endlag is kind of just... don't do it. You can definitely punish Fair in other situations, but using it in this way particularly is incredibly safe.

(by the way, I've noticed it's mostly just me and DunnoBro talking here. Since Slush already gave some input, what're your takes on this, @muddykips / Delta-cod ?)

 

[DJlive]

My two cents on the matter of egg roll, I find if you pair it with dodge rolling, even if it's really bad, creates a confusing game of did he just attack or dodge. But that's with someone who doesn't know the match up. Also, there are people who get the timing of egg roll and those that don't. You can get really punished if they do, try it a bit and if it keeps working then good. Otherwise, stay safe. If you can do ledge cancel egg roll on stages like bf, it might have more applications as a surprise move. And if you can time an egg roll shot, that might also work. But again, very situational and should not be abused.

I really want to discuss though old tech and that's wavebounce egg lay. I just adapted Wall's controls of tilt stick, L special and the timing is like B reverse. I find B reverse to have more applications but retreating wavebounce egg lay seems to have the same effect. They think you're retreating but surprise, egg lay. The approaching wavebounce egg lay seems to be mind games too. Like, I'm going to dair/fair/ff Nair but no, I'll just eat you.

I'm just wondering how viable are wavebounce strategies over b reverse.

 

[Pixel_]

Is this a thing already?

 

[DragN]

Is this a thing already?

Looks interesting, but what's stopping the opponent from just u-airing? It's super telegraphed.

 

[Pixel_]

Looks interesting, but what's stopping the opponent from just u-airing? It's super telegraphed.

yeah obviously the opponent can airdodge or attack, but it is a chance to land a fully charged Usmash. Also, the main thing here is to use the platform, so you can shield and react (which includes a Usmash oos).

 

[Codaption]

You'd need a super hard read to pull this off, not only on their choice of options out of the egg but how they mash to get out.

Frankly, I'm amazed kills off of Egg Lay are considered viable at all. People just must not realize yet all the stuff they can do to evade a followup.

 

[Pixel_]

You'd need a super hard read to pull this off, not only on their choice of options out of the egg but how they mash to get out.

Frankly, I'm amazed kills off of Egg Lay are considered viable at all. People just must not realize yet all the stuff they can do to evade a followup.

Like I said, the video is mainly to show that you can use the platform to be automatically at the height of the opponent when they break out. This can mean shielding and reacting, so that you can jab > usmash or just usmash oos.

 

[ElMoro995]

I was trying to find a setup for the FHuair->uair kill confirm, I found this

Jab1 into FHuair connects on very few characters (I didn't try with every character. I found it works against Luigi, Rosalina, Ganon, Bowser, Palutena). For the other characters who fall too fast on the ground, this setup can work with 2 or 3 jab1 (doing jab cancel obv).
I tried also this in training mode, it's very unlikely to pull this off in tournament, but I found it hype so I'll leave this here

EDIT: btw I've just managed to pull off a dair->footstool kill, it seems to work great so I'll try to pull it off more often

 

[Pixel_]

Just remembered about something the Pacman boards were discussing: footstool OoS. Pacman can use it if the opponent is close enough, and can Down B right after doing it. It works as a subsitute for his infamously bad grab, but idk how effective it is for us.

I asked KuroganeHammer how long the opponent would need to react to Yoshi's Down B after the footstool (since it's the only usable attack I know about, except maybe Egg Roll which I haven't tried yet) and am still waiting for an answer, but I'm pretty sure it isn't guaranteed at least. Jab OoS > Down B will probably work better but idk

 

[Delta-cod]

Footstool > Nair is also worth investigating. If the initial hitbox reaches low enough, it's possible that it can true combo out of grounded footstool. I remember this was possible on some characters in Brawl.

 

[Pixel_]

Was reading another thread and it just occurred to me that we can use items in certain matchups, like grounded footstool > throw banana downwards. It'd be pretty hard to lab all of the followups because of how many items there are, but maybe it'd be worth it to find the most efficient combos.

Also Kuroganehammer probably won't answer (and I don't blame him because he said he had ~500 tweets to answer) so someone could test it out manually or just tag him I guess

 

[Pixel_]

Made an image going over Yoshi's grab release options:

(open in new tab or save it to zoom in if it's too small)
Boxes with Yoshi's face are his actions, the ones with Mario's is the opponent's. Left side is what beats Yoshi's options, right side is what Yoshi's options beats.

I know I mentioned making a thread about kill percents, but I've become really busy in the past while and have been using my spare time in making a grab release video/picture among other things. If you want the data I've gotten so far (there's not that much), it's right here:

Spoiler

Percents are based on the first percent that shows red lightning.
Tested on Mario at Smashville, with Mario in the default spawn point.
All smashes here are uncharged.

Fsmash: 84 (dunno which hitbox)
Usmash: 117
Fair (neck hitbox): 135
Fair (other hitbox): 125
(spike hitbox of Fair not included)
Dsmash1 (body hitbox): 133
Dsmash2 (body hitbox): 117
Dsmash2 (tip hitbox): 151

Hopefully this'll help give rough percents for anybody else who wants to continue this project~

Things I'm planning on mentioning in the video, regarding the picture:

• Mash pummel while you grab them, or they'll be air released (which might be helpful but I haven't explored it at all)
• Neither player has a frame advantage after the grab release, so some things go down to exact frames (e.g. any char with jabs under 3 frames will come out before Yoshi's, so you may want to remember whose jabs come out when)
• Actually I found an image/thread that lists them off, though it might be outdated: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...s_grab_relsease_jab_combo_is_a_staple_of_his/
• Jab is my go-to option since most people don't react to grab release with counter-options
• Don't use tilts out of grab release since jab can combo into them anyway
• Down B is usually my second go-to option because once people start catching on, they shield
• This is still really risky, shield/roll is safer
• Once the opponent starts rolling away and you can't read them anymore, mix it up with throws (I'd go for Dthrow since it can lead to Uair)
• Doing several pummels before throwing will make it a lot less easy to see coming

Please tell me if there's anything I forgot, this took a while...

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's an interesting little guide there.
Is the vid you're planning on just gonna show most of these in a 2 or 3 minute timeframe?

 

[Pixel_]

That's an interesting little guide there.
Is the vid you're planning on just gonna show most of these in a 2 or 3 minute timeframe?

The video will be there to explain how I think of the grab release options during a match, while providing video footage of most options (which the flowchart can't do). I doubt I'll show every box on the flowchart, because it might take too long but also because most people don't use those options anyway (e.g. people rarely grab out of shield break).

 

[Delta-cod]

Pixel_ Very nice work. I will admit, I didn't notice they weren't Mario/Yoshi faces until you mentioned it. Just looked like color splotches, heh.

One thing I think you should note: Down B doesn't necessarily beat shield unless they hold it all the way through the move. There's always time to dodge/roll away before the actual drop.

Nevermind, I can't read. I don't think "..." is a very good way to notate a footnote, though. =P

With regards to kill percents, perhaps we can find a way to reuse the Jump Armor calculator to just calculate kill percents. I'm not too familiar with how exactly knockback works as a formula, but if we discount DI we can probably find a simple formula for weight, damage, and relevant knockback properties to just run them across all characters.

 

[Pixel_]

Pixel_ Very nice work. I will admit, I didn't notice they weren't Mario/Yoshi faces until you mentioned it. Just looked like color splotches, heh.

One thing I think you should note: Down B doesn't necessarily beat shield unless they hold it all the way through the move. There's always time to dodge/roll away before the actual drop.

Nevermind, I can't read. I don't think "..." is a very good way to notate a footnote, though. =P

With regards to kill percents, perhaps we can find a way to reuse the Jump Armor calculator to just calculate kill percents. I'm not too familiar with how exactly knockback works as a formula, but if we discount DI we can probably find a simple formula for weight, damage, and relevant knockback properties to just run them across all characters.

lol that's "***" not "..." but I guess the font makes it look like that.

Yeah, finding kill percents should be possible but you'll have to get the target knockback somehow. Would there be a way to find the knockback based on the percent when a move kills (which you can get based on experiment, or just with my percents)?

Also, make sure you get percents for the middle and edge of the stage for kill moves that hit horizontally.

 

[Delta-cod]

lol that's "***" not "..." but I guess the font makes it look like that.

Yeah, finding kill percents should be possible but you'll have to get the target knockback somehow. Would there be a way to find the knockback based on the percent when a move kills (which you can get based on experiment, or just with my percents)?

Also, make sure you get percents for the middle and edge of the stage for kill moves that hit horizontally.

You're right, I'm just bad.

We can try to pull the total knockback calculation from Egg. 's code for Double Jump tolerance. I've taken a look at the code, but it's late, so I'll need until at least tomorrow to figure out exactly what's going into the calculation and how (function hopping is harrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd). The code did have some pretty funny stuff, like this tidbit:

else if (charName.equals("girlmarth") || charName.equals("martha")) {
charName = "lucina"

We could see how much knockback was done to Mario at whatever kill percent was used, then try to flip the formula around a bit to see how much percentage we need with each move to kill, given the conditions you used to get Mario's kill percent. We test these generated percents for accuracy, and if they work then we have a kill percent calculator.

 

[Egg.]

equals("girlmarth") || charName.equals("martha")) {
charName = "lucina"

I was actually going to do stuff like this for more characters but then I got lazy (and figured no-one would actually see it, lol).

Anyway, the way the calculator works is that it takes the knockback formula, which is this:

and plugs in all of the values for each attack, with the percentage "p" of the person being attacked starting at 0%. My "calcKB" method outputs the raw "knockback units" that the attack does at 0%, and if the units are less than 120 (which is when Yoshi's armor breaks), it tries again, but increments the percent by 1%. It goes through this loop over and over again for each % (hence the inefficiency), until it finally outputs a value greater than 120, at which point the program prints out the value of p and moves on to the next attack.

Finding the percent that things kill at is harder due to how many different stage sizes/locations there are that the move can hit AND the many angles that Yoshi's kill moves send opponents flying at, but we can definitely estimate it based on how many knockback units that each relevant move kills at in a controlled situation.

I put the values that Pixel_ got for killing Mario at the center of Smashville into a modified version of the calculator, and these are the knockback units that it outputted for each of the attacks at kill percent, with the knockback angle of each attack in parentheses (note that the Sakurai angle is about 40 degrees at high percents):

• Fsmash(Strong) - 168.30 (Sakurai)
• Usmash - 194.89 (75)
• Fair(Strong) - 167.65 (Sakurai)
• Fair(weak) - 167.65 (Sakurai)
• Dsmash1(Strong) - 157.92 (30)
• Dsmash2(Strong) - 158.01 (30)
• Dsmash2(Weak) - 157.95 (30)

The fact that the knockback values are pretty similar for attacks with similar angles is promising (lol usmash). If someone could test the kill %s for the same moves in the exact same situation (center of Smashville), but on a character with very different weight (maybe dedede?), I could calculate the units again and we can see if they're roughly the same between different characters. If we want to make this a whole thing it might be useful to also include other kill moves, like down+b and maybe uair.

So the good news is that we may be able to approximate the kill %s of moves mathematically if this pans out. The bad news is that DI, stage position, and different stages all affect how many units that a move will kill at, so if we want to make a universal kill percent calculator, we're first going to have to manually lab the kill %s for at least one character on each of the legal stages, maybe at center stage and at the edge to get a good range of the knockback units it takes to kill. But once we do that, we could (theoretically) apply that same data to determine when our moves kill every character, using a program similar to the one I made for heavy armor.

Go math!

 

[Delta-cod]

awesome stuff

Thanks for the answer! by the way, would you mind clarifying what all your variables correspond to? I'm guessing it's something like...

P = initial percent opponent is at before move hits
D = damage of move
W = weight
S = stale move multiplier
B = base knockback
R = rage multiplier

As far as determining percents go, I totally forgot about angle differences. You're right though, we probably do need to manually lab one character on each stage to determine how many KB units we need to get a kill. I'm wondering whether or not a calculator can be generalizeable though. Don't characters take different trajectories based on fall speeds, etc? I have a similar concern about trying to obtain values for different DIs, as well. Anyone with more in depth knowledge should take a stab at answering this.

On the plus side, at the very least the calculator should provide a good starting point to test kill percents at, cutting out a lot of guess work.

 

[Pixel_]

Actually there's a few threads like this one that should be able to give us a headstart on finding the knockback units, like this one: https://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blast-zone-data.395357/
It uses Mario on Falcon, but it should work.

Also, a thought occurred to me. If the calculator's data is changed correctly, shouldn't it be able to calculate when any move kills any character in any stage? It doesn't work just for Yoshi, it could find kill percents for literally any character in the game.

Obviously we should focus on one character for now (Yoshi), but it'd be amazing to see the final version do that.

 

[Egg.]

Thanks for the answer! by the way, would you mind clarifying what all your variables correspond to?

You basically got it with a few exceptions (I just borrowed the variables from smashwiki):

P = percent opponent is at after the move hits
S = knockback growth divided by 100 (s apparently stands for scaling)
R = ratio (includes rage, crouch cancel, and smash charge interruption bonus)

And yeah, trajectory difference is the main thing that makes finding kill %s so hard, especially with DI. I don't know if there's any way to actually approximate kill % with DI, but I guess it would be possible to lab kill %s with "optimal" DI to at least get a general idea of when things kill.

As for generalizing the formula, I'd guess that it would be possible if we knew more concrete information about the sizes of blastzones, but the data we have on blastzones is pretty limited, with this thread being our only source of information. Since the data from that was all from labbing, we unfortunately don't have any concrete numbers that represent the sizes of blastzones. Fortunately, one thing that we do know from his data is that all the legal stages except Town & City and Battlefield have roughly the same vertical blastzones, so that's a bit less testing we'd have to do to find kill %s.

In other news, I tested Dedede's kill %s on Smashville at the same spot as Pixel (the respawn point of Smashville, not the center), and I also retested it on Mario since for some reason I was getting higher kill %s for horizontal kills than he did. Here's a comparison of the knockback units it took to kill both characters with different attacks:

• Fsmash(Strong): Mario - 182.8, DDD - 183.0
• Fsmash(Normal): Mario - 183.5, DDD - 183.4
• Dsmash1(Strong): Mario - 172.4, DDD - 172.0
• Dsmash2(Strong): Mario - 171.6, DDD - 172.0
• Dsmash2(Weak): Mario - 169.4, DDD - 172.3
• Fair(Strong): Mario - 182.8, DDD - 183.5
• Fair(Weak): Mario - 183.2, DDD - 182.8
• Usmash: Mario - 194.9, DDD - 203.7

This is great news! For all of the horizontal kill moves, it took roughly the same amount of knockback units to kill both Mario and Dedede, despite having kill %s that differed by about 20%. The only issue was Usmash, which took about 8 more units to kill Dedede probably due to how his weight/gravity affects the trajectory. Still, this means that a calculator could probably predict kill %s for our moves on any character pretty accurately, at least for horizontal kill moves.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and this could probably be extended to other characters like Pixel was saying, as long it holds true that it takes about the same knockback units to KO any character from a certain spot on the stage. And again, this tool would not be completely accurate when you take into account DI and all the different possible stage positions, but it could still be somewhat helpful to have an idea of when things kill.

 

[Pixel_]

Found out that Up B interrupts DJ's momentum which works somewhat similarly to how Yoshi could interrupt his DJ with attacks in the previous games.

I'm not familiar with the other games' meta, so would this be helpful at all? To me it sounds like it'll just be a niche mixup at best.

 

[Delta-cod]

Found out that Up B interrupts DJ's momentum which works somewhat similarly to how Yoshi could interrupt his DJ with attacks in the previous games.

I'm not familiar with the other games' meta, so would this be helpful at all? To me it sounds like it'll just be a niche mixup at best.

It's useful for getting yourself to a specific height that's above full hop height quickly, I suppose. I'd imagine it has uses in certain juggling scenarios.

It's not really useful against grounded opponents imo, though. It's not like DJC Egg Lay was, doesn't beat shield.

 

[Pixel_]

Just found out that Yoshi has a Hup Cancel like Kirby and Ness, where you can land with no lag if you do a Dair right before you land (has to be the first frames of Dair, though). It doesn't work after an autocancel Fair, but it should have some use.

 

[Sinister Slush]

That's basically just an autocancel before the move comes out. Can be done with pretty much any move if you know the frames, easiest one to cancel is dair.

Just Short hop airdodge and dair and it'll AC.

 

[Pixel_]

You guys might already know this, but it can be pretty handy if you don't.

How to check if you have a jump with Egg Toss:

Up B regains its height if you land on the ground, and your jump has the same property. So, if you don't know whether or not you have a jump, you can throw an egg. Still, it's a bit more complicated than that.
- You get your jump back if you grab the ledge, but you will NOT regain your Up B height
- If you haven't used Egg Toss during your jump then it won't tell you anything

So, if you:

• Are in the air
• Have already used Egg Toss at least once while airborne
• Haven't grabbed the ledge

...then throw an egg. If it's the full, initial height (you should be able to tell whether it is or not if you've used Yoshi enough), then you have your jump. Otherwise, you probably don't have a jump.

Still have to check if getting grabbed in the air means you both don't regain your jump AND don't regain your Egg Toss height, but I'm pretty sure you don't because you're not grounded. It'd be the most helpful scenario this would be used for, though.

 

[Pixel_]

 

[Sinister Slush]

How many people voted for a clickbait title.
Decent vid either way explaining indepth the grab release thing sort of that yoheking found

 

[Pixel_]

How many people voted for a clickbait title.

5 people said yes, 3 said no
https://twitter.com/PixelbugSSB/status/916772328045809664

 

[Crucible]

Soooo would anyone agree that our Yoshi's metagame has stagnated? Not that it lacks depth but would anyone argue that there is still significant "untapped" potential with this character?