Colorado Smash Revival. Summit #1 [10/29 - Game Shack]

[-Ran]

They are going to be run in the Southern Denver area.

 

[deepseadiva]

That's cool. It's not like I'm anti-ban. I play Peach, lol.

I just think one MK-friendly event would be a wonderful gesture of respect and courtesy to our scene.

 

[Zajice]

Tan changed his avatar?




waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

You've had that for like a year.

 

[koikaze]

Just softban Meta Knight since most of the people don't want him played.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html (If you haven't read this, you should)

 

[-Ran]

I read Sirlin's website about three years ago. It isn't the Bible, and nor should it be treated as such. Individuals that do as such use is as an attempt to absolve themselves of having to make a decision based on the merits of the community. Meta Knight will hardly be the first character [item, card, concept, etc] banned in a game.

A ban must be enforceable, discrete, and warranted.

60% [or greater] of tournament money is won with Meta Knight with having some justification for it due to either being a secondary or a main. The public has always -wanted- the ban in all the public polls. AZ recently did a straw poll and it was 70%+ in favor of a ban. It's enforceable. Almost every platform that the Anti-ban movement stood upon has been systematically destroyed during the evolution of the metagame over the past year.

Meta Knight isn't just driving the metagame at the top end, he is substantially hurting players in the mid/low level of play.

Whenever you're a low level player, the easier to grasp aspects of a character [D3's chain grab [Spotdodge+Shield], Snake's Ftilts, Marth's Dancing Blade Punish, Falco's Chaingrab/Laser/Laser] are all utilized to a great extent. These initial barriers in match ups are the great hurdles that have to be cleared for low/mid level players. Usually characters with strong shield games and safe/quick attacks perform well for them.

When it comes to Meta Knight, there are easily emulated methods of play and due to his movement style a great boon to playing a King of the Hill game. Overall, there is inherently less risk involved in playing Meta Knight once a player has established basic control of the character.

• Tornado is significantly safer at Mid/low level play. This allows them to kill most approaches.
• Glide -- [Glide Attack] --- Down Smash is incredibly powerful at low level.
• Down Smash & Shuttle Loop are an amazing GTFO move at that level of play.
• Up air [Tornado] can destroy most attempts to land/air dodge.
• As long as they aren't botching a sweet spot to with shuttle loop, they can recover without fear.
• Multiple jumps allow them to slide out of hazardous situations.
• The quickness of moves create an inherently small window of punishment for their opponents.
• MK has no bad stage [low level players are usually harshly effected by Cps].
• Camping and avoidance, anyone can do that.

You can't really say the same about other characters [not to that extent.] The main issue Low/mid level mks have is killing, since they are often times using their kill moves as 'GTFO' at low/mid percent and aren't baiting for punishes off the stage that can lead to a gimp. I find most of their kills come from revenge kills. Haha.

Now, in order to keep Meta Knight in the game, players are lobbying to have the stages altered yet again. We are going to intentionally change the metagame in order to keep one character in, to further shape the game around him. A select, noisy amount of players keep asking for more time to allow Meta Knight in the community. They are demanding that Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise get banned. This will take away significantly important counterpicks for characters against Diddy, Falco, and Snake. These surgical changes to the metagame are without forethought and are significantly damaging to the game.

Isn't it enough MK breaks the counter-pick system, has no bad match ups, has no even match ups, and is almost universally at the advantage regardless of what position he is? I could go on for days about the subject of why MK needs to be banned, because the community has gone on for years about it. The only reason the movement to have the character removed from the metagame stalled was because it became a Taboo amongst the staff administration for fear of anarchy on the boards. They saw how heated and passionate players were about the game, and it scared them. So rather than reevaluate decisions, they decided to put a padlock on the entire concept. It was only until recently that players began to regain the ability talk at length about the character.

 

[deepseadiva]

The public has always -wanted- the ban in all the public polls. AZ recently did a straw poll and it was 70%+ in favor of a ban.

I don't understand why this keeps getting cited. Besides the inherent flaws in an internet poll, I've never considered this a casual enough question to leave up to public opinion. The public is dumb and bad at this game. I've always translated the question "Do you want MK banned?" to "Do you want the game to be easier?"

Gee, what a surprising majority opinion.

Also, that poll AZ had was on AIB, roflolololol.

 

[Rizen]

^It'd be a shame if the majority of gamers, both hard core and casual, got what they wanted.
(No offense :/ )

It's up to -Ran, why are we still debating this?

 

[Spelt]

If it were up to meno all low level players would be thrown in concentration camps.

 

[-Ran]

As a tournament organizer, it's my job to care about the public. Top players don't feed the pot, they take it.

 

[Zajice]

I don't understand why this keeps getting cited. Besides the inherent flaws in an internet poll, I've never considered this a casual enough question to leave up to public opinion. The public is dumb and bad at this game. I've always translated the question "Do you want MK banned?" to "Do you want the game to be easier?"

Gee, what a surprising majority opinion.

Also, that poll AZ had was on AIB, roflolololol.

>big post arguing pro-ban with evidence to back it up and plenty of data
>only bring up one sentence of the whole thing
>attack people's personal opinions and intelligence rather than argue against the points

Sorry, not feeling it.

 

[deepseadiva]

That was the only part of the post I had a problem with? Calm your titz, geez.

...I didn't even attack personal opinions and intelligence, I attacked the exact opposite: collective mob mentalities. The day we start forming a serious ruleset based on opinion polls from All is Brawl, I will flip tables.

With drinks on them.

Sugary drinks that get sticky and are a pain to clean off the floor.

It'd be a shame if the majority of gamers, both hard core and casual, got what they wanted.

Serious competitive discussion should be left to entities other than the All is Brawl population. People like Ran and the ruleset committee, the informed. Not the participants in online polls such as "What is your favorite color?" and "Do you like onions?"

 

[Spelt]

Meno ... pick a side and stick with it.

 

[deepseadiva]

I am neither for or against a ban.

What I am against is the use of shoddy points to support either.

 

[-Ran]

The reference to the poll is a means of producing evidence of the current community public pulse on the subject. At the moment, AZ can't get a poll on Smashboards for it for obvious reasons. This was the closest we could get, and it would be silly to believe that it the crux of the argument, much less to get hung up over it. Whenever someone makes a decision, it's important to look at the sway of the community. Everyone has their biases, even the top players. Pause for a moment and consider:

You're a top player. You're considered one of the best in the game. You're routinely winning money which facilitates your ability to travel for Smash. You are well versed in the match ups seen at tournaments, and you are satisfied with your position in the community. Why would you want to do anything but maintain the environment that you are currently succeeding in? Why would you want to radically change the metagame by altering the driving force [60% of tournament winnings, etc]? You wouldn't dare jeopardize your ability to perform beyond your peers. You would run the game into the ground until either the game stales or the community begins to demand the change.

Meta Knight is detrimental to the metagame, and everything is pointing towards his removal. [IMO.]

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Top players generate OoS interest/attendance. You don't have them, you're just as screwed as if you ban a character who is used on a massive level across the nation.

Would give a more full post, but I'm in a game. :o

 

[BlueMycon]

Visiting CO next weekend. Tournies anyone?

So I'll be visiting CO next week. Can't wait to see all my old friends again. I fly in late Thursday, August 4th. I was hoping we could get a Melee tournament together for sometime that weekend. We could also do Brawl/SSB64/Project M/Mario Kart/Mario Party/Mario Tennis/Pokemon Puzzle League or whatever else people wanna do to make it a kick @$$ event! I don't have a venue to hold the tourney but if someone can supply that I can supply at least 1 full setup, possibly 2. I can also help TO if need be(although I can has hope that Tony wants to do it XD).

Josiah - you should totally get into Melee

Rest of Brawl Scene - you should totally get into Melee lol

Roman - <3

Tony - Peach player.

Tim - Horrible, horrible Tim.

Ferdi - Pants.

Heibrahi - SUCKS!

Jeris - does this guy even go on Smashboards?

Jamal - this guy DEFINITELY doesn't go on Smashboards lol.

Marilyn - All you have to do is start playing competitive Melee and Tony will instantly begin to revitalize the CO Smash Scene XD...seriously though, I'm not kidding around here.

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Melee hype. :D

Also, by next week tournies will be abounding in CO.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'm down to go if someone hosts. :D

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Any game that has C. Falcon as low-tier is auto-fail >8O

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Any game that has C. Falcon as low-tier is auto-fail >8O

Come play us in the one where he's high tier, then.

 

[koikaze]

I read Sirlin's website about three years ago. It isn't the Bible, and nor should it be treated as such. Individuals that do as such use is as an attempt to absolve themselves of having to make a decision based on the merits of the community. Meta Knight will hardly be the first character [item, card, concept, etc] banned in a game.

While I do think Sirlin is a very smart person when it comes to game balancing, I'm not going to suck his **** or anything. I think that looking at past examples of players banning things in games (that were set in place by the designers) when these things hurt competitive play (EG: Magic CCG, Street Fighter...). His article is a good starting point which can and should be expanded upon by further discussion.

Top players don't feed the pot, they take it.

Can I frame this quote and put it over my fireplace? XD

Top players generate OoS interest/attendance. You don't have them, you're just as screwed as if you ban a character who is used on a massive level across the nation.

Well, Colorado, to be honest, is weak on their out of state interest anyways. As with anything, you need to figure out what your goal is, and I mean SOLID goal. Like is your goal to foster a community of competitive local players? Is your goal to bring the best of the best down here and have large national tournaments? Is your goal to find a way to make Smash a better competitive game?

If you want to compete on a national level you need to either A. Play with Meta Knight or B. Set an example that Meta Knight hurts Brawl as a competitive game and have them follow.

Meta Knight is detrimental to the metagame, and everything is pointing towards his removal. [IMO.]

Well looks like Ran is in the "B" boat. =P

I think it's best to look at what to local scene wants and expand from there. This is not just Ran's thing, it's Colorado's thing. All of us have seen the numbers and arguments of the whole Meta Knight ban debate. I think we are all capable of having a legit option on the topic.

Here is my opinion: Meta knight either goes even or better on all of the cast and is strong on every stage. Therefore, I feel that if one plays to win, their is no other viable option (aside from maybe a rare case of playing a character where the opponent isn't familiar with the matchup). This leads to a stale game that lacks asymmetry (one of the most beautiful elements in a fighting game). I think it would be pretty easy to agree as a group just to not play him (softban). This hurts Colorado's out of state competitive play, but I feel it will greatly enrich local play (which is lacking at the moment) and have an exciting new (missing? XD) meta (Knight) to explore.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

Come play us in the one where he's high tier, then.

Where do you guys play?

 

[Steam]

I honestly think it's a myth that MK has even matchups :/

regardless he's still beatable... there's just no reason not to use him so he sucks the life out of the game. there are already specific rules against him and people are talking about taking away more stages so the game revolves even MORE around him... I do feel the community as a whole is dying because of him... at Genesis 2 Melee had more entrants than brawl... That just doesn't happen. While there are numerous reasons for this MK is definitely a big one. Melee is actually balanced in the top tiers... with MK gone, brawl can be even more balanced.

 

[Rizen]

^Norfair, the 'you hate it or love it' stage, was removed largely because MK's glide camping or whatever on the 'V' shaped platform formation.

I miss Norfair

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Elli, in 2008-10 we had plenty of OoSers showing to our events. We've had a good chunk of pro players comin' over, and we have pretty solid connections with a decent amount of players. I agree with you on setting a goal.

I think if our goal is revival, we should just ban top 8. Mmhmm. Then I'll play all day erry day.

Or at least play. XD

The game would be so much better if they didn't exist.

But yeah, if you guys dont' care about national levels and want to take a stand, I say ban MK/create our own ruleset. It was obvious 2 years ago that the Brawl backroom was filled (mostly) with people who had no idea what they were talking about, and that communities should go their own directions. I dunno how it is nowadays, but I still think the community should make their own standard, rather than conform to a terrible national one.

Where do you guys play?

Mainly Denver.

 

[Studmonger]

Well, if I'm planning on being a part of the revival I guess I should pop by this place more often. I'm in Aurora again and I love the idea. I'd be happy to play and try to get good again. Also KMgamer Kyle is around too. I bet I could get him to start playing again. I've got another friend who likes fighters but he'd be new to the community. I think I could get him to play too but I'm not positive. He's more into versus series games and SSF and he doesn't think smash is a "real" fighter game. Whatever that's supposed to mean.... If an event comes up you should send an invite on FB to everyone in the colorado smash group. I'll pay attention to that, and it's a ton easier to find than sifting through 20 pages of forums for the link.

 

[the Marronator]

So I'll be visiting CO next week. Can't wait to see all my old friends again. I fly in late Thursday, August 4th. I was hoping we could get a Melee tournament together for sometime that weekend. We could also do Brawl/SSB64/Project M/Mario Kart/Mario Party/Mario Tennis/Pokemon Puzzle League or whatever else people wanna do to make it a kick @$$ event! I don't have a venue to hold the tourney but if someone can supply that I can supply at least 1 full setup, possibly 2. I can also help TO if need be(although I can has hope that Tony wants to do it XD).

I'm going to post this here too, since there is less spam ._.

Ideally, if someone in Denver can host it would be better since it is more central, but I can and will definitely host something for Kenny up in Boulder, unless a better venue comes about haha. How does Saturday the 6th sound?

 

[koikaze]

I'm going to post this here too, since there is less spam ._.

Yeah I would like to keep this thread a troll combat FREE zone. I read over a lot of the posts in the other Colorado thread. Needless to say, it saddened me. =(

 

[FerrishTheFish]

How does Saturday the 6th sound?

Saturday the 6th sounds good to me.

Directly related to the previous post, however, my personal reputation is pretty tattered, so hopefully someone else in Denver can host an event so that people will actually come to it 8P

 

[Steam]

tony- past MK the top 8 are really balanced. if you remove the top 8, D3 ****s on everything. and the BBR doesn't do rulesets anymore. There's a ruleset comitee (which ran is a part of)

 

[-Ran]

So, I was thinking of making this split standard for all singles [outside of really big ones.]

1st - 50%
2nd - 30%
3rd - 10%
4th - Entry Fee Back, the rest goes to 3rd.​

Example: 16 man, $5 dollar tournament.

1st - $40
2nd - $24
3rd - $11 [8+3]
4th - $5​

 

[Kazz@]

I'm in the springs, get hype for kids joining the brawl scene

 

[Steam]

yay sonic main

wahahaha

 

[MegaRobMan]

D3 ****s on everything.

Yeah, **** D3! Glad someone else knows whats up.

 

[BlueMycon]

So, I was thinking of making this split standard for all singles [outside of really big ones.]

1st - 50%
2nd - 30%
3rd - 10%
4th - Entry Fee Back, the rest goes to 3rd.​

At least Tony will never lose money this way.

David - I'm willing to go to Boulder on Saturday if I have to, although I'd rather have it in Denver if at all possible, it's better for people coming from the every direction. Unless Dan wants to host it in the Springs, there are lots of players down there, but then that's pretty far for you.

Does anybody else think they can host? My parents just moved into a new house I've never even seen, but I suppose I could ask them if no one else can host. They live about 15 minutes from I-25 & Arapahoe Rd or I-225 & Parker Rd.

 

[koikaze]

At least Tony will never lose money this way.

<3

Does anybody else think they can host? My parents just moved into a new house I've never even seen, but I suppose I could ask them if no one else can host. They live about 15 minutes from I-25 & Arapahoe Rd or I-225 & Parker Rd.

I have a house in downtown Denver (23rd and Ogden). I work Fri-Sun nights though. You guys are more than welcome to use my space while I am not there.

Are people free weeknights?

 

[Underload]

Ideally, if someone in Denver can host it would be better since it is more central, but I can and will definitely host something for Kenny up in Boulder, unless a better venue comes about haha. How does Saturday the 6th sound?

So down.

If there's anybody who needs a ride for David's thing on the 6th and lives in Littleton, Lakewood, Morrison or Golden (or Boulder?), I can give a ride. Unless I don't go. Then you're ****ed! But I'll at least let you know the day before, so you can be ****ed in advance.

This isn't supposed to be a carpooling thing (unless you're somebody coming up from the Springs, then we can talk something out), it's chiefly for people who honestly don't have a feasible way to get to the fest. I know that feel.

Colorado, to be honest, is weak on their out of state interest anyways. As with anything, you need to figure out what your goal is, and I mean SOLID goal. Like is your goal to foster a community of competitive local players? Is your goal to bring the best of the best down here and have large national tournaments? Is your goal to find a way to make Smash a better competitive game?

Just quoting this for posterity's sake. It's a great point.

 

[Fluxus]

hello friends

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'm going to post this here too, since there is less spam ._.

Ideally, if someone in Denver can host it would be better since it is more central, but I can and will definitely host something for Kenny up in Boulder, unless a better venue comes about haha. How does Saturday the 6th sound?

The 7th works better for me (plans to clean out a garage on the 6th), but I need a ride n such (can meet denverites and carpool, but can't afford to go straight to boulder), soz I'm kinda low priority.

Join the FB group. It's pretty organized and spam-free.

tony- past MK the top 8 are really balanced. if you remove the top 8, D3 ****s on everything. and the BBR doesn't do rulesets anymore. There's a ruleset comitee (which ran is a part of)

Wait, D3 isn't top 8 anymore?

Top 8 are relatively balanced, but if you remove (what used to be) d3 and above, the game becomes anyone's game, more or less. I mean, there are a few outliers, buuut...

So, I was thinking of making this split standard for all singles [outside of really big ones.]

1st - 50%
2nd - 30%
3rd - 10%
4th - Entry Fee Back, the rest goes to 3rd.​

Example: 16 man, $5 dollar tournament.

1st - $40
2nd - $24
3rd - $11 [8+3]
4th - $5​

I'm more partial to 60 30 10, but since I could never beat Rafa/Ferdi/Jeris when it mattered, lololol.

Though the bonus money should just go back to first. Since, ya know, they got first.

Or do

60
20 +leftovers
10
entry

Cuz really, first should make more than half, imo. They earned it.

yay sonic main

wahahaha

You're a bad man.

hello friends

Do I know you?

 

[Steam]

D3 is 11th now. he was never really all that great. it's just that all of his get ***** matchups are pretty much in the top tiers.

if you remove MK, everyone has at least like 3 or 4 bad matchups. if you remove the top 8... characters like Lucario and ZSS will have one or two bad matchups. and D3 will still invalidate most of the roster. if you take out D3 too lucario only loses to Fox... it would be better than what we have now but not as balanced as just axing MK.