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Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

Hylian

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She should still squall. Haven't tested though so maybe the AI guy screwed up. I just requested no up-b.

And yeah, just trying to make sure you knew people could mash out. I had people arguing with me over it being mashable or not but no one actually tested it :/. I'm glad you were able to see though. It's even harder in this game than brawl to keep people in that CG because you can't buffer. It was possible in brawl if you ran past them after buffering the dthrow and then did a pivot grab.
 

941

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I would be OK with Nana not squalling back to the stage. Because She doesn't gain any height, the actual distance She gets from using squall isn't very significant.
 

Hylian

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She does gain height and the distance is very significant
 

941

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I thought She just did the squall as if not mashing B at all. Does She actually squall as if mashing B? Because I've never seen Nana gain any height from squalling to the stage.
 

Hylian

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...if you don't mash while using squall you just drop with it lol. Of course she mashes.
 

moonfolk

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@ Hylian Hylian
Could you please post what changes were made (if you have the time)? I feel like ICs are different; it could be mostly due to gamewide polishes and stuff, but I'd like to know. I'd really appreciate it and I'm sure others would too.
 
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Rubberbandman

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I honestly don't have a big issue besides that handoff i was doing won't be in the game. Also @Hylain you was right fam; some(like 2-3) people were able to mash out immediately once I grabbed.
Yeah, that was my main complaint with the matches people put up of you. Near the beginning they never mashed else they'd be out instantly. All of my friends never let me get away with something like that; That's why I focused more on the footstool infinite since its faster, but inconsistent.
I merit that Nana up throws only because I actually catch some follow ups off that (fair, uair).
Yeah, but I like the style of reacting to get the regrab. I'm completely content with it staying the same though; I still would like it to be slowed down to make it easier to get a wavelanded regrab.

I really just wanted Nana to be smarter in terms of recovery. In 3.5 she would squall if far enough, throw iceblocks. She seems slightly ******** now. I've had situations where were next to eachother and I Up-B while she sits there and times where she wouldn't do anything at all.
I havent played quite enough to know whether she "never" does it, or if she just does it from a different position. Either way, it could use some fine-tuning, but that might be asking for too much.
 

Hylian

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-Momentum glitch gone
-Nana no longer up-bs to recover
-Brawl mid-stage handoff infinite removed.

That's it.
 

moonfolk

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-Momentum glitch gone
-Nana no longer up-bs to recover
-Brawl mid-stage handoff infinite removed.

That's it.
Much appreciated! I have a question: When I WD OoS in 3.6, both climbers always WD; in 3.5, Nana would jump; did the momentum fix address that? I'm just curious of it was a separate issue. I assume it wasn't. Also, I feel like non-spotdodge/roll desynching is easier in 3.6, like, not the dash dance desynch, but sometimes Nana just desynchs when WDing or moving around. I have learned to "deal with" Nana doing weird stuff before to the extent that I can now take advantage of these accidental desynchs, I'm just wondering if part of playing ICs is just improvising in response to Nana from time to time, or if I'm not understanding how I'm desynching and that learning to do these things intentionally would improve my gameplay.
 

Hylian

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I don't have the knowledge to answer your question sorry.
 

941

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Much appreciated! I have a question: When I WD OoS in 3.6, both climbers always WD; in 3.5, Nana would jump; did the momentum fix address that? I'm just curious of it was a separate issue. I assume it wasn't. Also, I feel like non-spotdodge/roll desynching is easier in 3.6, like, not the dash dance desynch, but sometimes Nana just desynchs when WDing or moving around. I have learned to "deal with" Nana doing weird stuff before to the extent that I can now take advantage of these accidental desynchs, I'm just wondering if part of playing ICs is just improvising in response to Nana from time to time, or if I'm not understanding how I'm desynching and that learning to do these things intentionally would improve my gameplay.
I've heard before that ICs had issues with using both trigger buttons to WD OoS, so I'm guessing that was the problem. I feel like I've experienced the same thing your talking about with Nana desynching for seemingly no reason, but I haven't really played PM in a while, so I can't really elaborate much about it.
 

Hylian

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I didn't say you screwed up, I said maybe lol. I also said she should still squall.

<3
 

941

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Why does Nana squall when she could just jump back to the stage?
 

Damp

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Anyone else feel like ICs got nerfed this patch? I'd much rather have the mid-stage handoff than the momentum fix.
 

Hylian

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You're crazy lmao. You'd rather rely on a gimmick than actually learning the character properly and having them work like a normal character?
 

941

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How exactly does one "properly" learn a character? It seems silly to dismiss someones play style as improper or gimmicky just because it's different. I do prefer 3.6 ICs to 3.5, but dismissing a potential O-Death on every character as a gimmick is like saying Melee and Brawl ICs rely on gimmicks rather than "properly" playing the game.
 

Hylian

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It's a gimmick because it's a result of a glitch and the character isn't designed around it? Why would you rely on something you know is going to be removed?

I was an IC's main in brawl, I'm not exactly hating on myself lol.

I mean learning the character properly as in learning the character with the same mechanics every other character has, I.E. they can turn around normally.
 

moonfolk

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Why would you rely on something you know is going to be removed?
I kept trying to reason with people to please not learn the handoff infinite. I have tried to focus on smaller combos/links that flow better. The reason why I wouldn't win often was less that I didn't bother to learn the infinites, more that I kept dying offstage to Nana belay and the turnaround glitch made me drop combos, significantly hurting my punish game. Now that ICs feel so smooth and Nana is WAY more predictable, I have done significantly better. Learning how to maximize their unique properties and how to get ****LOADS of damage quick is what makes them so awesome, but really you probably won't 0-death anyone in the same way you did before.

Also work on your Sopo game. My problem is not exaclty knowing when to desynch and when to be synched, cuz everyone tells me my Sopo is better than with Nana lol. I hope that will carry me far with them though. :) Try to forget about that janky infinite.
 
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941

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I mostly stopped playing PM, but if I had continued to play, I would have definitely practiced and abused the infinite a lot more. It was in the game for a long time, and when there are aspect of the character that fundamentally don't work, you have to take whatever you can get.

Why didn't ICs get any actual balance changes in 3.6? I'm glad some of the bugs were fixed, but why didn't ICs get any buffs/nerfs to their moves the way almost every other character did?
 

Phresh123

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I wish it wasn't removed, but I do understand where people are coming from in terms of mainly relying on the infinite only. They're still viable characters personally top 10 in my book, but the infinities were just an essential tool that really made IC's who they are today. I honestly think if It wasn't for desync's IC's wouldn't be so viable now to the fact there's no infinities. I mean, we still got the close to edge handoffs, but players will soon pickup on the fact were limited to those handoffs and blatantly try to stay away from edges(even though that is not going to work, lmao.)

Seems like IC's fixes weren't that many, and merit the fact we lost our most powerful tool, they should get some sort of buff elsewhere in their arsenal. The ONLY significant buff I can remember since 3.5 was that belay kills. That's love right there.:popo:
 
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Hylian

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Ic's didn't get changed much because they are already a really good character. Any changes that would target specific match-ups would be bad because they would just be toxic elements in other match-ups. Why change for the sake of change? I actually really dislike how much most characters in PM change and it's something that's made me play a lot less. This leads to me not having IC's changed much except for very important things. Besides, the only way they would really changed is being nerfed probably, and not by me.

You guys realize sopo can chaingrab every character in the game with dthrow right? Like 95% of them he can just chaingrab to the edge into a hand-off for a kill. Why exactly do you need mid-stage handoffs as well? There are plenty of videos of me getting 0-death chaingrabs on characters in the middle of the stage without the infinites.

Ic's have a ton of great tools that aren't utilized well. Players that rely on the "infinites" and don't know various situations with the character won't be good with them..ever. You don't develop fundamental skill this way, you just develop how to get a grab skill, while everything else develops much slower.

IC's don't need buffs, they need the player base to develop their metagame. They already have all the tools they need to compete.
 

moonfolk

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I personally think they are way better now that their bugs are gone. I can follow through with combos better, Nana doesn't kill me, and the double-trigger fix lets me WD OoS way easier. I feel like desynchs stick a little longer, and I've been incorporating ledge desynchs like crazy, as well as Nana upsmash OoS / Popo jump or WD > aerials or smashes. It's easier getting and maintaining control of ICs now, and going off stage is definitely safer. Basically, I've been getting a lot more aggro with the desynchs and laying on punishes real thick. I think PM ICs are going to be more aggro than they have been in any other game because Nana is so much better. She almost takes care of herself, letting you get a bit more aggressive without fear of losing her, and if you do, Sopo can still get **** done.
 
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FirewaterDM

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I wish it wasn't removed, but I do understand where people are coming from in terms of mainly relying on the infinite only. They're still viable characters personally top 10 in my book, but the infinities were just an essential tool that really made IC's who they are today. I honestly think if It wasn't for desync's IC's wouldn't be so viable now to the fact there's no infinities. I mean, we still got the close to edge handoffs, but players will soon pickup on the fact were limited to those handoffs and blatantly try to stay away from edges(even though that is not going to work, lmao.)

Seems like IC's fixes weren't that many, and merit the fact we lost our most powerful tool, they should get some sort of buff elsewhere in their arsenal. The ONLY significant buff I can remember since 3.5 was that belay kills. That's love right there.:popo:
Like this, 100%. I get that the PM devs don't want to give IC's their infinites, but at the same time, it shows that the character still has A LOT of problems in terms of actually being viable without them. If you ignore this, they don't have the tools to actively deal with a lot of their troubling matchups, and while I don't know that many other characters (Luigi's the only other character I play in PM) One thing that i've noticed even in 3.5, especially once I got used to the momentum glitch is that IC's MU's are horribly polarized. It's either they go even or they lose badly. Like most of their losing MU's are 65:35...at best, and most of their losing MU's are usually 70:30 or worse, and even then the only characters I think they beat/have an advantage are are DK and Bowser. (DDD and Zard could be debatable but I don't think they are as definite).

I think there's a problem IF a character loses the tool that made them top tier in the earlier games, and instead of being reasonably viable, that in theory they have very few winning matchups even with their current tools, AND the majority of the MU's they lose they lose badly. I don't disagree that they could be a decent character, but even with what they have there's nothing that helps them deal with their absolute **** matchups that the infinite wouldn't. Like wobbling/handoffs made Peach/Link/Samus/Yoshi/etc. feasable in Melee because it's the same old if you get the grab/punish, you have a way to deal with those matchups. Literally the peach MU was/is in melee, you either get grabs, and even then you need to MASSIVELY outplay the peach regardless to have a shot. It's the same with MK or Snake in Brawl (though admittedly to a lesser extent). Sure, give the people who hate and cry about the character a bone, but at least give the people who actually like/play the character something that makes it so we don't have to care about/want an infinite to do things. This is especially important when virtually all of their Melee hard MUs, they all got buffed in some way. Like even with the movement fixes, IC's are still in the same, bad boat they were in 3.5, but we just get that we don't have random SD's or incorrect inputs from ourselves or Nana because we gobackwards instead of what we actually wanted to do
 
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moonfolk

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IC's don't need buffs, they need the player base to develop their metagame. They already have all the tools they need to compete.
I completely agree with this! Let's get people playing the ICs. They're really good now!
 

Hylian

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You guys know they still have two infinites that we left in on purpose right?

What are you even complaining about?

Also I do fine in tournaments without any infinites. They are perfectly viable.

Edit:

It's like you all completely ignore all the improvements they got from melee. Peach is much easier than she is in melee if only because of up-b, and things like their upsmash/fsmash not having messed up interpolation.
 
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Hylian

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The second one is the first one that was discovered on them, the dthrow->bthrow handoff at the ledge.
 

941

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Ic's didn't get changed much because they are already a really good character. Any changes that would target specific match-ups would be bad because they would just be toxic elements in other match-ups. Why change for the sake of change? I actually really dislike how much most characters in PM change and it's something that's made me play a lot less. This leads to me not having IC's changed much except for very important things. Besides, the only way they would really changed is being nerfed probably, and not by me.

You guys realize sopo can chaingrab every character in the game with dthrow right? Like 95% of them he can just chaingrab to the edge into a hand-off for a kill. Why exactly do you need mid-stage handoffs as well? There are plenty of videos of me getting 0-death chaingrabs on characters in the middle of the stage without the infinites.

Ic's have a ton of great tools that aren't utilized well. Players that rely on the "infinites" and don't know various situations with the character won't be good with them..ever. You don't develop fundamental skill this way, you just develop how to get a grab skill, while everything else develops much slower.

IC's don't need buffs, they need the player base to develop their metagame. They already have all the tools they need to compete.
There can be change for the sake of improving the design of the character. Why can't Ice Blocks fall slower to match Melee and maybe give ICs a projectile to help with recovery? Why does the hitbox on Up-B still kill you even though Nana is actually moving down? I don't think they need drastic changes, but they definitely aren't perfect.

I actually made a post about how CGs worked on every character, and yes Sopo can D-throw CG a lot of characters, but this doesn't work on floaties, and it only works on fast-fallers if they don't DI away.

Saying ICs already have all the tools they need to compete is pure speculation. Not trying to say that it is or isn't true, but there definitely isn't enough data for anyone to know either way.

Personally, I would rather have Wobbling against Peach than Up-B as a kill move. If Peach is a better MU in PM, I would say it's because of the stages and not because of the character changes. I feel like Up-B is really overrated because a lot of players don't know to look out for it, and players will eventually learn when to expect it and how to avoid it.

You guys know they still have two infinites that we left in on purpose right?

What are you even complaining about?

Also I do fine in tournaments without any infinites. They are perfectly viable.

Edit:

It's like you all completely ignore all the improvements they got from melee. Peach is much easier than she is in melee if only because of up-b, and things like their upsmash/fsmash not having messed up interpolation.
Comparing the D-throw > B-throw infinite to the one that was removed isn't exactly fair. I mean, has anyone ever actually done it in tournament?

I also do fine in tournaments, but that doesn't say anything about myself as a player, or ICs as a character, because my region is weak and I don't play against any notable players.

I compared F-Smash and U-Smash between Melee and PM. The differences are that U-Smash has slightly more range, and F-smash has 1 more active frame, which is nice, but it doesn't exactly change much in an MU as one-sided as Peach.
 
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Hylian

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It's hard to even reply to your posts, you clearly just view the character completely differently from me. Ice blocks are WAY better than melee. You can recover with them, and they are much better for edgeguarding and platform desynching, as well as better for approaching.

Sorry, basically I just think most IC players are bad. And I do fine against notable players like Sethlon/Strongbad/Metroid...who are all more skilled than I am at the game. I don't see the character being weak when I perform well against some of the best in the nation at PM with them. I don't even think I'm that good with the character, especially considering I hardly play anymore. But it's clear to me that the community hasn't put in the work yet. The work that I saw fly/wobbles put into developing IC's in melee. The work I saw several put into developing IC's in brawl(from like 18th on the tier list to 2nd..). No one has put nearly that amount of dedication into PM IC's. People practice a few things and then rely on those, they don't strive to understand everything about the character.

And yes, fumbles has done the bthrow infinite several times in tournament. AFAIK he can do it consistently. The fsmash and upsmash changes a ton, they both had blind spots due to interpolation that peach was often in due to her float.
 

941

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I'm sorry if I come off as overly critical. I often have difficulty articulating what I want to say, and I also have a tenancy to misunderstand what others are saying. I also rely (perhaps too much) on data and results to form my ideas and opinions, and have difficulty understanding the "potential" of something without seeing it in action. However, I don't see any problem if we simply have different views. I think that kind of diversity is a good thing, and if we simply disagree, at least we can express both sides and maybe generate interest in a character that very few people seem interested in.

I disagree that most ICs players are bad, because I think all of them are. There definitely isn't a player that's put in the same amount of work with ICs as IPK has with Lucario, or Odds has with Bowser.

Not to sound skeptical or anything, but how do you know Fumbles has done the infinite in tournament? I've watched every video of Him that I could find but I've never seen him do it.
 

Hylian

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I've known from people that played him in tournament. He's been doing it since it was discovered.
 

Phresh123

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The second one is the first one that was discovered on them, the dthrow->bthrow handoff at the ledge.

Can you link a video showing this done as well as footstall chaingrab? Always went past these 2 and now i'm finna learn them.
 

moonfolk

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Can you link a video of the footstool chaingrab?
I've been looking for it, about to scour the boards since I didn't find it on the subreddit or youtube, but I can explain it. You essentially have to d-throw with Popo > Nana Jump > footstool > regrab (which also produces n-air from Nana, tacking on some damage) > repeat. I'm actually not sure if it's a true infinite, but I've done it like 3 times in a row before getting to kill throw percent, and man, that was ONE time. I like to go for it when I have stock lead because it's ****ing hard, or sometimes mix it into my d-throw > d-air mixup alongside d-throw or f-throw > squall and up-throw > up-tilt on some characters.
 

Damp

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I do still think that ICs are very strong. I didn't even use the infinite, I just liked being able to do multiple handoffs mid-stage. Even if they made it random like Nana's mid stage throws in melee, I would prefer that. I guess I just have to learn combos out of Nana's up throw now. Up airs/back airs usually do really well at tacking on damage. And I love up-b as a kill move on floaties. Overall, I just find them tough to play in a game where projectiles are so prevalent. I have a tough time getting to Link or Ivy, even though once I do I can chain grab and do a lot of damage. But maybe with the better movement, it'll be easier to get in. I'll have to see on thursday.
 

Damp

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Personally, I would rather have Wobbling against Peach than Up-B as a kill move. If Peach is a better MU in PM, I would say it's because of the stages and not because of the character changes. I feel like Up-B is really overrated because a lot of players don't know to look out for it, and players will eventually learn when to expect it and how to avoid it.
The peach matchup is so much better in PM than in melee. Like, absurdly better. Upsmash is great, and up-b is a free kill at like 80%.
 

moonfolk

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So, unfortunately Nana's AI isn't quite fixed like I assumed it was. She definitely won't randomly do up-b anymore when she's on her own, but she just did it to me twice in a row when I input up-b offstage. It was definitely after tumble, I made sure to get out of tumble animation before hitting up-b, and hit it ONLY once. Nana belayed a split second before Popo, causing me to die. Did it two more times to confirm. Now, I know it's only the beta, but this seems to be a problem other than AI, IMO, since Nana definitely won't do belay on her own. I'm going to keep doing it so I can pin down exactly what's happening. Unfortunately I have no way to take a video, maybe a very potato one.
 
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