Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

[Hylian]

Glad to hear Rodan .

 

[Sharkz]

Got 5th today in a tournament today going all IC's. Only 40 entrants, but there were 7 current/former PR'd players in our state present. IC's really helped with a Squirtle and Marth I had trouble with with Pit in the past. So thanks IC's!

 

[Hylian]

 

[Hylian]

Here are some IC matches for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkhyIXMSbs&t=1h19m27s

 

[Mookiefish]

Hey guys, I'm looking to potentially pick up ICs as a secondary. What are the most important things to practice before playing with another person? I can do all of the general tech like wavedashing, wavelanding, L-cancelling, etc. I've messed around with desynchs a little bit and kind of have the timing down, but I can never do much past Sopo Dthrow -> Nana Dair. Any help would be awesome!

 

[Sharkz]

Here's half a mm set with my IC's that was recorded. Unfortunately, the end of game 2 and all of game 3 were cut out. But hey, anything is better than nothing.

From 9:53 to 16:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3l4pZmeOgA&t=9m53s

 

[Sharkz]

Has there ever been consideration to have the option for nana to pummel during her grabs? It would be so much easier to style people at the ledge if she pummeled just once to give time for Popo to set up for something.

 

[nimigoha]

@ Hylian have you removed the mid-stage infinite handoff yet? I can't stop using it X_X

 

[Hylian]

Yes, it's removed.

 

[nimigoha]

Ah well. Time to actually learn how to do something else. Like approach.

 

[Iceman]

Have you guys found any interesting applications with icies pivot?

 

[nimigoha]

Have you guys found any interesting applications with icies pivot?

SD, miss followups, stumble into hitboxes... Standard stuff.

 

[941]

Have you guys found any interesting applications with icies pivot?

It can be used to ledgehog faster than turning around and wavedashing, and for falling off platforms faster, but most of the time it happens when you don't want to do it.

 

[Iceman]

I meant using it for spacing smashes, jabs, tilts, and grabs. Using pivots to space your character before you out out a hitbox rather than trying to space with a hitbox

 

[Player -0]

@ Hylian Is Sopo's Up-B going to be reverted to Melee in the next patch? I remember there was some talk of it for 3.5 but it didn't happen.

 

[941]

I found it pretty funny that we got to see Olimar's new recovery in the 3.6 trailer, then Nana SDs immediately after.

 

[Hylian]

@ Hylian Is Sopo's Up-B going to be reverted to Melee in the next patch? I remember there was some talk of it for 3.5 but it didn't happen.

Their up isn't changing.

 

[941]

Their up isn't changing.

Is anything changing besides the slide bug, and the hand-off infinite? I would really like it if Nana never used Up-B, given that it almost never helps her recover and just makes her more difficult to save.

Also, does anyone have advice for pivoting out of a wavedash? I'm having a hard time doing the pivot instead of dashing.

 

[Hylian]

Is anything changing besides the slide bug, and the hand-off infinite? I would really like it if Nana never used Up-B, given that it almost never helps her recover and just makes her more difficult to save.

Also, does anyone have advice for pivoting out of a wavedash? I'm having a hard time doing the pivot instead of dashing.

There are some recovery changes, nana will only up-b when in range to grab it for example.

Why would you need to pivot out of a wavedash, you are already in a standing state.

 

[941]

There are some recovery changes, nana will only up-b when in range to grab it for example.

Why would you need to pivot out of a wavedash, you are already in a standing state.

I've been trying to do WD>Pivot>D-smash so I can hit with the part that comes out first, as well as WD>Pivot>Grab. I was also trying WD>Pivot>B-air for a while, until I remembered that RAR is a thing in this game.

Glad to hear about that Up-B change though, as it's very frustrating when Nana decides to Up-B a frame before you do and kill you both.

 

[Player -0]

Is there a reason it isn't changing? It barely gives height but takes forever to do.

 

[Sharkz]

I said I'd never play IC's vs Sonic again, but I've changed my mind. I'm gonna figure this out. But I realllyyy need yall's help. The local Sonic player in our region, Kai, plays the simplest of Sonics. No wavedashing, just dash dancing and moving around in spindash. He's a Brawl/Smash 4 player who enjoys playing PM as well, and you'll be able to tell from watching. While I do beat him occasionally, he probably wins 80% of our sets. He played me ealier this tournament, and I went Pit and lost 0-2. When we met again in losers finals, I decided to try IC's again. I lost 1-2, but I know now that this is definitely doable. I just need to know what I'm doing wrong. I'm still constantly confused by how to play against Sonic. Also, I made some really poor decisions late game 3 cause I was desperate, so prepare for bad gameplay there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHFunP_wIwI

 

[941]

You actually played pretty well, but a few mistakes cost you those last 2 games, so I think you could have won from better execution alone. I'll try to give some more advice below, but make sure you don't give up on what worked.

Some things I noticed:
-You seem to sit in shield a lot, try desyncing Blizzard and Ice Blocks to punish him for jumping in with his spinning moves, because otherwise he just hits the shield and moves away.
-Jabs are a good tool against Sonic, as you can follow up with a grab or smash, and there isn't much lag to punish if you miss.
-If you get a grab, but don't have Nana to combo with, Up-throw and follow with U-airs. You can see at the end of game 3 that Sonic doesn't have a lot of options when above you, so try to stay below him as much as possible.
-Battlefield likely wasn't the best counter-pick stage, as it seemed to give Sonic more room to move around. I'm not sure about the stagelist/bans, but I would think FD, Yoshi's Story, Fountain, and Green Hill Zone would have all been better picks (obviously don't pick stages you aren't comfortable with though).

 

[Hylian]

I've been trying to do WD>Pivot>D-smash so I can hit with the part that comes out first, as well as WD>Pivot>Grab. I was also trying WD>Pivot>B-air for a while, until I remembered that RAR is a thing in this game.

Glad to hear about that Up-B change though, as it's very frustrating when Nana decides to Up-B a frame before you do and kill you both.

I don't get it. Why would you try to pivot when you could just turn around? You are already standing out of a wavedash, why are you adding in the extra dash frames to pivot when you can just press the other direction?

Is there a reason it isn't changing? It barely gives height but takes forever to do.

Huh? Ic's have one of the best recoveries in the game, and it gives a ton of height and also kills.

 

[941]

I don't get it. Why would you try to pivot when you could just turn around? You are already standing out of a wavedash, why are you adding in the extra dash frames to pivot when you can just press the other direction?



Huh? Ic's have one of the best recoveries in the game, and it gives a ton of height and also kills.

I was trying to find a workaround for the momentum glitch since it usually causes me to either slide into a hitbox, or poorly space my moves, but maybe I'll just pick up another character for tournaments, because I can't seem to play around it.

Also, I think @ Player -0 is referencing the ICs Solo Up-B, although I'm pretty sure it's no worse than it was in Melee.

 

[Player -0]

Yeah, Sopo's Up-B. Not the synced one.

It seems a lot slower than Melee from watching Wobbles' sets.

 

[941]

Yeah, Sopo's Up-B. Not the synced one.

It seems a lot slower than Melee from watching Wobbles' sets.

Wobbles usually ledge-cancels the Up-B, and that does make it faster. It still seems pretty slow without ledge-canceling.

 

[nimigoha]

@ Hylian

Please help me understand how the fair spike works.

I've seen the hitbox. It's smaller than the two others.

Now my question is how hitboxes behave between frames.

So say the hitbox is at clock position 11 on frame 1 and position 2 on frame 2. I've seen several times that the hitbox will be active on frame 2 everywhere between position 1 and 2 in a straight line. Easy to see the path with debug interpolation.

So if I start a fair and line it up so they should get spiked, the only way for them to not get spiked would be if they get hit by either of the other hitboxes in that little space that doesn't contain the spike hitbox? This may read as nonsense but I think my logic is sound.

Basically, I put my opponent in the path of the spike hitbox and swing the hammer and they don't get spiked. Because they were in a position where they got hit only by the larger vertical hitbox(es) but not the inner hitbox, and specifically in the space between their circumferences.

So to guarantee a spike you have to put them in a position where they'll be between the two hitbox frame positions, so the hitbox travels through them and doesn't just come near them on a given frame.

I'm aware that this wall of text makes no sense but I think in asking the question I sorta answered it myself maybe.

So to make the spike easy to hit you could either increase the size of the hitbox so it always spikes something in its path, or increase the distance traveled between two frames so it's more likely to hit your opponent. Probably between active frames 2 and 3 iirc.

At this point I'm talking to myself but if you could offer your explanation or just try to figure out what I so poorly said and confirmed it that would be great.

 

[Hylian]

Basically the spike is supposed to be difficult to hit because it's incredibly good. I think you know just as much as I do about the hitboxes, fair was made before I started contributing to IC's.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah the combos into it are pretty great and it's a very strong spike. Definitely don't think it should be any easier to land.

 

[Sharkz]

Anyone going to Shuffle that I can get some friendlies/mm's with?

 

[Pelet_PR]

Can someone add me in the Ice Climber Skype group?
Skype username: paul.gr.pelet

 

[FirewaterDM]

So...new impressions on IC's with the Beta? I'm hoping for more buffs and that they don't touch the recovery. But i'm impressed with how much just the glitch made them feel a lot better.

 

[moonfolk]

But i'm impressed with how much just the glitch made them feel a lot better.

I too noticed a big difference with their flow. I was told back in 3.5 that they'd be removing the ICs infinite handoff glitch (where you control Nana's throw) but they didn't note it in the patch. Will test when I get off work! Same goes for Nana suiciding/killing Popo by Up Bing when there's no hope of getting back on stage.

 

[Rubberbandman]

So the change log didn't note a couple things:
1. Nana doesn't hold when she does Uthrow, however she still can hold when she's supposed to preform an Fthrow (Bthrow as well?). Also, it seems when popo is knocked away when nana gets a grab (aka she get grab armor), she will sometimes still hold the opponent.
2. Nana will never use Up B when recovering low to the stage.

I don't know why we can't just have nana do a random throw instead of always using UThrow in the middle, is there an AI issue there?

 

[Hylian]

I'm a huge fan of consistency over randomness. You'll probably never convince me to make her do random things like that.

She doesn't up-b when low anymore yeah so you won't die when you run off and try to save her and she up-bs at the same time.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Yeah, you can convince me pretty easily, lol. I see more merit in having to react to nana as a "punishment" of sorts for being in the middle of the stage. At the very least make it slightly easier to get a regrab on top platforms off of Uthrow! Its also really hard to get Fsmash/USmash off of it compared to melee.

I really like nana not UpBing off stage anymore as well. It trades off nana dying more for popo dying less.

The one design I really thought about was making it so that nana doesn't turn around during smash charges, it seems like a pretty weird concept to keep imo

 

[941]

I too would like to see some changes to how mid-stage handoffs work. Right now, the only reason not to just U-throw with Popo is a handoff gets you ~6% more damage, which isn't much considering the risk of messing up the timing. Maybe Nana's throw directions could cycle like Peaches F-Smash?

Also, why was the removal of the momentum bug the only change documented in the changelist?

 

[Hylian]

That isn't true at all, there are plenty of reasons to handoff mid stage, in fact you should probably almost never just uthrow when you could handoff.

Stuff wasn't listed in the ics log because I stopped posting in the pmdt.

 

[Phresh123]

I honestly don't have a big issue besides that handoff i was doing won't be in the game. Also @Hylain you was right fam; some(like 2-3) people were able to mash out immediately once I grabbed. I merit that Nana up throws only because I actually catch some follow ups off that (fair, uair).

I really just wanted Nana to be smarter in terms of recovery. In 3.5 she would squall if far enough, throw iceblocks. She seems slightly ******** now. I've had situations where were next to eachother and I Up-B while she sits there and times where she wouldn't do anything at all.