Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[Anti Guy]

Doesn't Pikachu too? And Diddy does. Yoshi as well. Heh, there's more than I thought.

Wow yeah, I wasn't thinking. Alright, so they have tails. None of them are humanoid enough though. From what I understand, Mewtwo was probably based on Lucario or someone who didn't have a tail... were they able to just add that on? Or maybe he was based on Pikachu/Diddy/Yoshi and just severely modified?

 

[AnOkayDM]

Wow yeah, I wasn't thinking. Alright, so they have tails. None of them are humanoid enough though. From what I understand, Mewtwo was probably based on Lucario or someone who didn't have a tail... were they able to just add that on? Or maybe he was based on Pikachu/Diddy/Yoshi and just severely modified?

Nah, it's gotta be Lucario he was based on. They've got the same body type, the command grab, and the projectile, plus the teleportation.

Lucario has a tail, yeah? It's never used for attacks but it is animated, so it must have a bone, right?

 

[Chzrm3]

Basically, yeah. I suppose it's worth noting that through hard ASM coding some articles maaaay be edited further (this is how we gave Toon Link's bombs multi-hit and Diddy's banana downthrow force tripping for examples) but that route is often difficult, tedious and time-consuming.

Despite these seemingly overbearing restrictions though you'd be surprised what is possible with the methods we use. Just gotta get creative.

That's so interesting! Thanks for answering.

I have another question (sorry to keep pestering you, haha). Let's say you wanted to make a clone out of the Ice Climbers, but you wanted to remove Nana entirely, and just make that playstyle using Popo. Is that something that would be possible? Or is the way Sakurai's team made Ice Climbers such that there's always going to be two of them?

 

[shinhed-echi]

Not sure where I should ask this, because the Project M social thread is well.... just talking about anything other than Project M.

But... would it be possible that someday Pokemon Trainer returns? Not as a B-Down switch, but as a TAUNT switch? There are 3-4 Taunt inputs (3 if both side taunts are considered the same) so there's enough room for the 3 Pokemon starters to be asigned a "slot" to said taunt button for switching, without having to sacrifice their new Down+B

Or at LEAST make it a deal like Samus where if you mash Up+Down+Up you turn into ZSS.

I just never found it fair that a character like Zelda is allowed to keep her Sheik transformation, yet a character like Pokemon Trainer who's main gimmick was to switch between 3 Pokes (amont 2 other gimmicks), was split apart.

I guess my question is, now that things have come THIS far... Wouldn't it be possible to include a taunt button switch mechanic? (Basically, a re-mapping of the Down+B) It can't be THAT hard, can it? And if it isn't.. why isn't there an option for those who liked the Trainer as he was?

Even if the Character Select screen still shows all 3 of them separately, it would be incredible if I could switch between them for either one of them. I know this is probably meaningless to a lot of you... But I was one of the few people who loved the idea of PT even before he was announced for Brawl. And he's my favorite Nintendo inclusion there too. Sadly he was really bad in Brawl..
But I can't play as them together now, and that just blows. X_x



Just curious I guess.

 

[820]

I actually have the opposite reaction, I wish they'd fully separate Zelda and Sheik. Not that that'll ever happen.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I think they made the right choice on both counts. Keeping Zelda and Sheik together and separating the Pokémon.

 

[Player -0]

No. All Zelda's Down B does is look for Sheik's data in the code and load it. I believe it might be possible to make zelda transform into another character on the roster, Cloning Zelda does not give you another free slot to work with.

Yeah, it Zelda's Down B looks for a person's code then it loads that character, which was my question. Now onto my other question. If Giga Bowser and Warioman are "modes" for characters then wouldn't it be possible to add modes to other characters which is accessed through a transform move such as Zelda's Down B?

 

[shinhed-echi]

>_>
<_<

*raises hand*
Um... so about my question... Is it or is it not possible to have all 3 Pokemon being switched through a taunt button? And if it's about the PMBR staff not wanting that, may I ask why do they feel that way?

I don't even think Ivy and Squirtle would've gotten into Brawl if it weren't for the trainer and the switch mechanic, so... Yeah, why is it that PT's main gimmick was stripped from him and then got kicked out?

 

[AnOkayDM]

>_>
<_<

*raises hand*
Um... so about my question... Is it or is it not possible to have all 3 Pokemon being switched through a taunt button? And if it's about the PMBR staff not wanting that, may I ask why do they feel that way?

I don't even think Ivy and Squirtle would've gotten into Brawl if it weren't for the trainer and the switch mechanic, so... Yeah, why is it that PT's main gimmick was stripped from him and then got kicked out?

Because three characters in one slot is too much.

Sheik and Zelda stuck together because they both make complete, well-rounded characters on their own in addition to making up one whole character that benefits from the versatility having two movesets brings. The Pokémon weren't very good on their own, and removing the stamina and elemental weaknesses certainly wasn't enough to fix that. They didn't feel like complete characters and the trainer himself was annoying.

Additionally, what you're asking for here is pretty game-breaking. Three characters who all have a complete and well-rounded moveset can suddenly cycle between themselves without even sacrificing a move for the privilege? That's not fair. And then you're also asking people who go up against one of those characters to be able to deal with three potential matchups.

It wouldn't work.

 

[Mithost]

Yeah, it Zelda's Down B looks for a person's code then it loads that character, which was my question. Now onto my other question. If Giga Bowser and Warioman are "modes" for characters then wouldn't it be possible to add modes to other characters which is accessed through a transform move such as Zelda's Down B?

I believe the extra modes apply in a similar fashion to the Zelda/Sheik situation. You can clone Wario or Bowser to give them the ability to transform (The character you used as a base has to have all the features you want on the new character, like crawling), but the possible transformations remain the same (warioman/giga bowser).

 

[shinhed-echi]

Because three characters in one slot is too much.

Sheik and Zelda stuck together because they both make complete, well-rounded characters on their own in addition to making up one whole character that benefits from the versatility having two movesets brings.

Well... generally Sheik dominated the character slot here. Zelda's been always kind of useless, so I'm not sure either were well rounder nor complementary of the other... Maybe now in P:M this is a different story.

The Pokémon weren't very good on their own, and removing the stamina and elemental weaknesses certainly wasn't enough to fix that. They didn't feel like complete characters and the trainer himself was annoying.

Additionally, what you're asking for here is pretty game-breaking. Three characters who all have a complete and well-rounded moveset can suddenly cycle between themselves without even sacrificing a move for the privilege? That's not fair. And then you're also asking people who go up against one of those characters to be able to deal with three potential matchups.

It wouldn't work.

You don't have to sacrifice a move to balance it out, you can have him sacrifice a bit more time (by having the switch take longer than before).
I thought PT's complaint was how he forced the player to switch. Instead of dealing with the forced switching, the game now forces the player to stick with one. Personally, I think that strips away all traces of fun from PT. It's precisely giving the opponent a hard time by switching the match-up on the spot what was so great about him in the first place.


I don't see how they felt incomplete, the trio were part of a team. Squirtle had enough ATs to make up for his lack of Down B, Charizard had a Glide+attack, and Ivy... well, she needed the buffs the most.


So somehow, I feel all of this you're telling me doesn't add up.
Most Zelda/Sheik players I've seen just stick to one of the two characters by choice. I don't see them complaining about their characters feeling incomplete.
That and I'm also sure that any Down+B I could think of to replace Zelda's transformation, wouldn't have made her a better character.


I know at this point in the version we're currently at, I'm just beating a dead horse here... But with all the talk on the other Clone Engine thread about giving Ganon a whole new moveset and whatnot... I was just thinking that this should be issued first, you know? A concept that actually made it to the game, and probably will stick around to SSB4.

I know I won't change a single thing but...
Just saiying.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Well... generally Sheik dominated the character slot here. Zelda's been always kind of useless, so I'm not sure either were well rounder nor complementary of the other... Maybe now in P:M this is a different story.

Zelda is much better now than she was previously, I can attest to that.

You don't have to sacrifice a move to balance it out, you can have him sacrifice a bit more time (by having the switch take longer than before).

That's a pretty terrible idea. The switch took such a long time in the first place, and the longer you spend not actually fighting, the more time is spent either wasted or giving your opponent time to get ready for your swap. When the file is loaded off an SD card, the time it takes to load is even more inconsistent than a disc. I've had Zelda take literally seconds to swap.

If you want switchable characters, you have to give something up. Time is not a reasonable compromise.

I thought PT's complaint was how he forced the player to switch. Instead of dealing with the forced switching, the game now forces the player to stick with one. Personally, I think that strips away all traces of fun from PT. It's precisely giving the opponent a hard time by switching the match-up on the spot what was so great about him in the first place.

I don't see how they felt incomplete, the trio were part of a team. Squirtle had enough ATs to make up for his lack of Down B, Charizard had a Glide+attack, and Ivy... well, she needed the buffs the most.

You can't have both. Either you can have a team, each character having severe weaknesses for the privilege of having two other characters and the opponent dealing with three matchups, or you can have three good characters that stand alone.

Squirtle's ATs don't make up for the lack of a down-B. A glide attack doesn't make up for the lack of a down-b (especially when the glide is as ****ty as his). And you just admitted that Ivysaur sucked.

Three characters in one slot is incredibly hard to balance. And if it weren't for the stupid stamina mechanic, the vast majority of players would have stuck with one Pokémon, one that fit their playstyle. Removing the stamina, there would be very little incentive to swap unless you kept each of the Pokémon as crappy as they were, which kind of defeats the purpose of the project.

So somehow, I feel all of this you're telling me doesn't add up.

*shrugs* I may be totally wrong. The real reason may be "because we wanted to and you can suck it." I don't know. Personally, I think they made the right decision separating the Pokémon and making them all viable, though.

Most Zelda/Sheik players I've seen just stick to one of the two characters by choice. I don't see them complaining about their characters feeling incomplete0

That and I'm also sure that any Down+B I could think of to replace Zelda's transformation, wouldn't have made her a better character..

You seem to have missed my point here. They both feel complete in the first place. They benefit from each other, but they're not necessary or integral.

I know at this point in the version we're currently at, I'm just beating a dead horse here... But with all the talk on the other Clone Engine thread about giving Ganon a whole new moveset and whatnot... I was just thinking that this should be issued first, you know? A concept that actually made it to the game, and probably will stick around to SSB4.

I know I won't change a single thing but...
Just saiying.

And you're entitled to that opinion. But you asked why we shouldn't give them their gimmick back, and I'm answering as well as I can.

Urgh. Sorry for the weird quote formatting; I can't seem to fix it. SWF is so terrible sometimes.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Urgh. Sorry for the weird quote formatting; I can't seem to fix it. SWF is so terrible sometimes.

That's ok, I have trouble myself when I quote too much.

Anyway, no point dragging this much longer since I see absolutely no desire from PMBR to make PT like he was. I guess I'll just stick to SSB4 if PT makes it there for this mechanic then.

 

[AnOkayDM]

That's ok, I have trouble myself when I quote too much.

Anyway, no point dragging this much longer since I see absolutely no desire from PMBR to make PT like he was. I guess I'll just stick to SSB4 if PT makes it there for this mechanic then.

I'm pretty confident PT will return. And I hope they're better in Smash 4 than they were in Brawl!

 

[Player -0]

I believe the extra modes apply in a similar fashion to the Zelda/Sheik situation. You can clone Wario or Bowser to give them the ability to transform (The character you used as a base has to have all the features you want on the new character, like crawling), but the possible transformations remain the same (warioman/giga bowser).

Why wouldn't you be able to just add a line of code that redirects for what character it looks for? It doesn't sound too hard, although I'm no expert.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Why wouldn't you be able to just add a line of code that redirects for what character it looks for? It doesn't sound too hard, although I'm no expert.

I assume there must be a reason, even if I don't know what is is. Otherwise we'd already have characters in those slots...

 

[Player -0]

Though I don't know the reason, I assume there must be one, otherwise we'd already have characters in those slots...

Can you rephrase that? What you said doesn't make sense :l
Edit: I figured it out although I want to know if there is one, jus' helping the thinkin' process.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Can you rephrase that? What you said doesn't make sense :l
Edit: I figured it out although I want to know if there is one, jus' helping the thinkin' process.

Heh, sorry, looking back at that, I realize how it coulda been unclear. I'll go edit that post now.

 

[Fortress]

that link has done nothing but confirm my previous statement, he is not special or unique in anyway, he's your common enemy. Its like adding a goomba as a character. and do you really think primid fits into the "Nintendo all-star" category?

and do you think that he is more deserving of a spot than someone like Isaac or Ridley? Im not saying add these characters but they are actually deserving of a spot in the game

You made an extremely well-worded and thorough counterpoint to my Game and Watch comment on that other thread, and I agree with you on the matter in most aspects. It's not exactly fair to say that a generic everycharacter with no real characterization and has been around in one game deserves a spot over another, but I figured that Primid was doable and would be a nice second spot next to ROB in representing the Smash Bros. Universe itself within the game. It was just a thought that'd crossed my mind. On the whole, you have an excellent counterpoint which, I have to admit, I agree with.

The truth of the matter is, there's simply not enough public support and need for a character like Primid, when the Metroid universe is crying for more representation. I just hope you understand where I was coming from with the whole "Smash Bros. Universe representation" thing, if it made any sense. I'm just a little saddened that Primid wouldn't ever be more than a fan PSA, but, oh well. It's not too big a deal.

 

[Mithost]

You made an extremely well-worded and thorough counterpoint to my Game and Watch comment on that other thread, and I agree with you on the matter in most aspects. It's not exactly fair to say that a generic everycharacter with no real characterization and has been around in one game deserves a spot over another, but I figured that Primid was doable and would be a nice second spot next to ROB in representing the Smash Bros. Universe itself within the game. It was just a thought that'd crossed my mind. On the whole, you have an excellent counterpoint which, I have to admit, I agree with.

The truth of the matter is, there's simply not enough public support and need for a character like Primid, when the Metroid universe is crying for more representation. I just hope you understand where I was coming from with the whole "Smash Bros. Universe representation" thing, if it made any sense. I'm just a little saddened that Primid wouldn't ever be more than a fan PSA, but, oh well. It's not too big a deal.

Please discuss this in the character thread <3

I am wondering on how 'full' the new characters can be. Do they show up in records? Do they have final smashes, snake codecs, and Subspace entries?

 

[820]

ROB doesn't represent the Smash Bros games though. He's the NES accessory.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Please discuss this in the character thread <3

I am wondering on how 'full' the new characters can be. Do they show up in records? Do they have final smashes, snake codecs, and Subspace entries?

I'd imagine they'd have Final Smashes and presumably a space for codec entries, if not the actual entries themselves (unless they have a really good set of impersonators for all the voices). Subspace would probably be tougher to do. I wouldn't know about records either.

 

[Chzrm3]

Please discuss this in the character thread <3

I am wondering on how 'full' the new characters can be. Do they show up in records? Do they have final smashes, snake codecs, and Subspace entries?

I think they have to, or else the game risks breaking when you try to load them in those places.

An an example, for records, every match the game will presumably try to write to the record memory for each character that was in the match. So if Roy's there, and he doesn't have a slot allocated in records, something's going to mess up. It could be as simple as just if (this.Character.Record == null), return 0; but since the PMBR isn't working with dev kits and they're not in a situation where they can explicitly code something like that, they might have to deal with the fact that it's going to throw an error and crash the game if Roy doesn't have a place to write to memory. At that point, the only valid solution is creating another piece of that data structure where Roy would exist, and that character could send data to after every match.

Honestly, when this is all said and done, I'd love for the PMBR to do a little case study or documentary or something. The process of them modding a game this difficult to mod is amazing to me. : D

 

[Fortress]

ROB doesn't represent the Smash Bros games though. He's the NES accessory.

I keep neglecting this. That's the second time I've said the exact same thing.

 

[MegaViralProxxy]

Let's not talk about this kind of stuff anymore.

Anyways, on topic. AT's wouldn't really work as a base for new characters since they don't have many bones and the textures are very bad, someone from the PMBR stated that the textures aren't suited for gameplay over long periods due to their quality. As I see it, it's best to use the trophies as a guideline in order to see what direction you want the model to go and a general idea of how textures should be placed.

How was what I said not on topic...? It said talk about anything related to the clone engine. :/

 

[Chzrm3]

How was what I said not on topic...? It said talk about anything related to the clone engine. :/

Oo, sorry - things kinda changed around. Now this thread is about the mechanics/programming side/possibilities of the Clone Engine, and there's a new thread for all the character discussion:

http://smashboards.com/threads/clon...-results-updated.341479/page-15#post-15942457

On that note, I've got another question. It was mentioned that Sheik down-B searches the game for Zelda, and then pulls her from memory. Is this a Sheik/Zelda/PT/Samus exclusive trait, the way things like wall-jumping, crawling, and artifacts are exclusive to their respective characters? Or would it be possible to make a character that transforms between Donkey Kong and Pikachu (as a random example)?

 

[trojanpooh]

I think they have to, or else the game risks breaking when you try to load them in those places.

An an example, for records, every match the game will presumably try to write to the record memory for each character that was in the match. So if Roy's there, and he doesn't have a slot allocated in records, something's going to mess up. It could be as simple as just if (this.Character.Record == null), return 0; but since the PMBR isn't working with dev kits and they're not in a situation where they can explicitly code something like that, they might have to deal with the fact that it's going to throw an error and crash the game if Roy doesn't have a place to write to memory. At that point, the only valid solution is creating another piece of that data structure where Roy would exist, and that character could send data to after every match.

Honestly, when this is all said and done, I'd love for the PMBR to do a little case study or documentary or something. The process of them modding a game this difficult to mod is amazing to me. : D

If I had to take a guess they either made a code to restrict record recording on the clone characters or they will assign the records to the character that they were cloned off of (Roy -> Marth, Mewtwo -> Lucario)

 

[Fortress]

make a character that transforms between Donkey Kong and Pikachu

Confirmed for 3.0.

 

[Mithost]

"make a character that transforms between Donkey Kong and Pikachu"

Confirmed for 3.0.

brb photoshop

 

[Fortress]

brb photoshop

I am monitoring this thread...

 

[HyperrCrow]

Confirmed for 3.0.

Woaaaaaaaaah buddy, that's my line.

 

[Player -0]

Hmmm, can we get any PMBR members or any knowledgeable people to answer some of the questions regarding the limitations of the clone engine?

 

[Mithost]

Hmmm, can we get any PMBR members or any knowledgeable people to answer some of the questions regarding the limitations of the clone engine?

What questions exactly are unanswered?

 

[Kerenthar]

Hmmm, can we get any PMBR members or any knowledgeable people to answer some of the questions regarding the limitations of the clone engine?

Just like Wario's Alternate Costume, but with graphic effects added. That is what they already said.

 

[Fortress]

Just like Wario's Alternate Costume, but with graphic effects added. That is what they already said.

Clone engine, not Alt Costume engine.

As for a quick list of limitations?

-potential clones can't be post-brawl
-potential clones cannot be cast members of Smash 4
-potential clones must have some sort of presence within Brawl itself
-Articles (projectiles) are janky
-People will argue with you over your choice

That's the quick rundown of it.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Just like Wario's Alternate Costume, but with graphic effects added. That is what they already said.

That's the Alt. Costume Engine. Not the Clone Engine.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

ACTUALLY HE'S ASKING ABOUT THE CLONE...

Nevermind, you guys got it.

 

[Xebenkeck]

I think the most legitimate question unanswered is do the clone characters have their own slot in the records?

If they do that is incredibly awesome, if they don't I imagine that all data for their matches will be recorded as if they were their base clone, (i.e Roys info will be updated in Marth's data and Mewtwo would be Lucario)

 

[Kerenthar]

I am sorry, I read it too fast, lol.

 

[GuruKid]

I can only really say that full clone compatibility for the entire game is still a process for us.

As for Final Smashes? They're part of the character's moveset files so yeah, each clone can have its own Final Smash.