Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[OrangeSodaGuy]

I almost feel like samurai goroh isn't going to fit well into smash. I mean he seems like a decent character but idk. I don't think his playstyle will represent F-Zero any better than Cap already does. If someone were added from F-Zero i'd hope they take ganon's moveset with them.

They could maybe just give Goroh Ganondorf's old moveset (sans the purple flames) and redesign Ganondorf. Not to sound like a broken record, but I honestly wouldn't mind a Samurai Goroh that never used his sword, much in the same way that Falcon never uses his gun. lol

 

[ChronoBound]

They could maybe just give Goroh Ganondorf's old moveset (sans the purple flames) and redesign Ganondorf. Not to sound like a broken record, but I honestly wouldn't mind a Samurai Goroh that never used his sword, much in the same way that Falcon never uses his gun. lol

Brawl Assist Trophy...

 

[red9rd]

They could maybe just give Goroh Ganondorf's old moveset (sans the purple flames) and redesign Ganondorf. Not to sound like a broken record, but I honestly wouldn't mind a Samurai Goroh that never used his sword, much in the same way that Falcon never uses his gun. lol

Yeah but then we will have all the Gannondorf players complaining

 

[shinhed-echi]

I really like the idea of Goroh for Project M.

But he should definitely use his sword, even if it's just for specials.
I can imagine him as a lightning-based swordsman (like Crono) since Falcon's got the flames, and a good aggressive rival element to fire would be lightning, imo. Perhaps play around with a side+special that would dash & slash through the enemy and stun them before Goroh sheathes back his sword.
His recovery could be a katana spinwheel of doom.
His Down B could be a completely downward vertical version of the Falcon Kick that has the power of a sweetspotted Thunderbolt.
As for his Neutral B... Well I was thinking something along the lines of Battou Jutsu (... yeah, like the one Lyn uses except without the disappearing act) and it would have powerful vertical knockback. (So in essence... a Falcon Punch with a sword, that sends opponent straight up).

Just off the top of my head ideas.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

Brawl Assist Trophy...

That I'm full aware of.

...which makes things even funnier, IMO

Just think of all the times you saw Ganondorf's victory screen where he would whirl his sword around triumphantly, or when he pulled out his sword as a taunt in Brawl... and you were reminded that you could never, ever, actually use it.


assuming that Goroh gets in in the first place. Me personally, I'm fine with Ganon as-is, but if they redesign him, I would definitely like to see another F-Zero character come in with Ganon's original Falcon-clone moveset.

 

[Friesnchip]

And transitioning a moveset to a new model isn't as easy as it sounds; everything would have to be reanimated since Samurai Goroh does not share the same body type as Ganon, plus hitboxes would change drastically, effects would need to change, some moves wouldn't make sense for Goroh and need to be altered... plus Ganon would need an entirely new moveset...

Also, I highly doubt this change would be accepted by the community. I want Ganon to use a sword as well, in theory, but two games with his current moveset has kind of set it in stone.

 

[ChronoBound]

I really like the idea of Goroh for Project M.

But he should definitely use his sword, even if it's just for specials.
I can imagine him as a lightning-based swordsman (like Crono) since Falcon's got the flames, and a good aggressive rival element to fire would be lightning, imo. Perhaps play around with a side+special that would dash & slash through the enemy and stun them before Goroh sheathes back his sword.
His recovery could be a katana spinwheel of doom.
His Down B could be a completely downward vertical version of the Falcon Kick that has the power of a sweetspotted Thunderbolt.
As for his Neutral B... Well I was thinking something along the lines of Battou Jutsu (... yeah, like the one Lyn uses except without the disappearing act) and it would have powerful vertical knockback. (So in essence... a Falcon Punch with a sword, that sends opponent straight up).

Just off the top of my head ideas.

The main objection I have to Goroh is how many other sword newcomers they have planned. If for example, Lyn and Isaac get in before Goroh, I would like to see the remaining three newcomers be non-sword characters.

 

[Mithost]

Get out.

Present a good argument and I will.

I would like to clear up one thing about the Ridley comment that I forgot to add. Mainly, it can be described by this (poorly spelled) comment.

Dude.. I'm using a ridley skin over Chirzard, and I re-sized him myself, and it looks perfect, so i duno what ur talking about

This one also brings up the re-sizing, especially the melee intro

He has already been downsized in Smash Bros. before (along with many, many other characters). Look at the Melee intro.

Let's look at the melee intro, especially when he is against Samus.

Spoiler

Wings out, he looks a tiny bit larger than Charizard in this picture, give or take a bit. What is the difference between Charizard and a resized Ridley? Removed fire effects? Sound effects? I found this on brawl vault, and it looks like what you guys are talking about. (http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=12295]Link[/url]) If you resize Ridley down to a reasonable size, he becomes the same as Charizard. Give him a size more like his games, and he becomes what he is in the SSE (a really cool boss battle).

Bowser is just too big for Smash.

Olimar is much too small for Smash, they could never add him in.

Waitaminute.

Bowser has been much smaller in many of his titles. Paper Mario (before he grows in size as one of his attacks), every mario kart game, most if not all of the Mario Sports games, and Mario RPG have him smaller. Heck, in the first Super Mario game, Mario and Bowser are almost the same height.

Olimar is irrelevant, as we are talking about larger, non-humanoid characters being downsized to fit, not the flip side. Even though it's confirmed that Olimar is the size of a nickel in his game, he still maintains his relative small size in scale of the rest of the cast.

The debates against my point on Lyn and Goroh are good. I stand by Marth being a good substitute/texture hack seeing we already have Roy added. We might even be able to do sound effects with alternate costumes, so feel free to do it. Also, I agree with red9rd in wanting an Axe/Spear wielding character instead of another swordsman. I don't know enough about F-Zero to understand why Goroh is the best possible choice for a second F-Zero rep. Feel free to inform me.

Dixie is different enough from diddy where she is very possible. the issue is if sakurai decides to add her then the PMBR's hands are tied.

I don't understand the differences between them. It would just seem like an excuse to try out a second version of diddy's moveset. There just doesn't seem to be anything unique about Dixie that translates to a moveset change.

--

I would like to finish by saying I really don't really want more clone engine characters (barring Pichu for the same reasons Roy and Mewtwo are in), and that adding characters for the sake of filling the slots seems like a bad idea on the PMBR's behalf. The remaining characters from melee are outright clones, or would be redundant if added (looking at you, young link). Unless they started adding SSB4 characters (or looked at my personal one-entry wishlist for Smash 4), I can't see my self becoming excited for any new additions.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The main objection I have to Goroh is how many other sword newcomers they have planned. If for example, Lyn and Isaac get in before Goroh, I would like to see the remaining three newcomers be non-sword characters.

That's why I suggested using the sword mainly as SPECIALS. The rest of his moveset could be done with lightning infused punches and kicks.
(Heck... anybody here remembers C.Falcon's N64 moveset? The elbow upward smash, the sweep kick, it's not an example of originality, but it's a start).

And are Isaac and Lyn REALLY being given priority over Goroh? I have no objections, especially about Isaac.... but for all we know he could end up being playable in SSB4.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

Saki, Issac, and Lyn are my personal picks if we are looking at assist trophies for inspiration.

Saki for his interesting moveset ideas, Lyn for the idea of having a cool katana weilder, and Issac for his popularity.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

The main objection I have to Goroh is how many other sword newcomers they have planned. If for example, Lyn and Isaac get in before Goroh, I would like to see the remaining three newcomers be non-sword characters.

It's never set in stone that he HAS to use a sword. Just because he did certain things as an assist don't necessarily mean that his whole game has to be based around that alone. Even if they mixed things up somewhat between using a sword and using physical attacks similar to Captain Falcon, that could help to set him apart from the likes of Marth, Roy, and Ike, who have very few non-sword based attacks.

I do see the point about Goroh's body type though. He could end up taking a LOT of work.

Can't speak for everyone else here, but I would gladly take Goroh over Black Shadow myself, if the PMBR is able to get either one of them into the game.

 

[ChronoBound]

The fact is that Sakurai has been hinting that he may have passed on Ridley again (he has been hinting he may be the stage hazard for the Pyrosphere, but then again Sakurai could be for all we know).

Secondly, at this point, Ridley is probably the most iconic, important, and popular character from a veteran Nintendo franchise (a franchise already with at least one playable character already in Smash Bros.) that is not already playable.

People have been demanding a playable Ridley since pre-Melee, and he has been among the Top 5 most wanted Smash Bros. newcomers for over a decade, and it would nice to see the Project M team explore this.

The Ridley fanbase is the largest one of any potential newcomer for Smash 4 (he has by far the largest support thread of any potential newcomer for Smash 4, and was among the biggest for Brawl as well). This is a character that is one of the few left from Nintendo's established series that is truly deserving of the monicker "Nintendo All-Star".

 

[FalKoopa]

Ridley aside, I see surprisingly little demand for Saki.

 

[Ninka_kiwi]

Ridley aside, I see surprisingly little demand for Saki.

I would main the crap out of Saki if he were to get in Project M. No matter how good or bad he would end up.

As I don't see a Sin and Punishment rep in Sm4sh, this would be the next best thing.

 

[ChronoBound]

Ridley aside, I see surprisingly little demand for Saki.

I think its because Sin & Punishment is a very niche series. The first one was a VC only game internationally, while its sequel pretty much bombed everywhere.

 

[red9rd]

The main objection I have to Goroh is how many other sword newcomers they have planned. If for example, Lyn and Isaac get in before Goroh, I would like to see the remaining three newcomers be non-sword characters.

He wouldn't use a sword, If he did you a weapon it would be his trident.

 

[ChronoBound]

He wouldn't use a sword, If he did you a weapon it would be his trident.

I said Goroh, not Ganon.

 

[NisforSmash]

I don't understand the differences between them. It would just seem like an excuse to try out a second version of diddy's moveset. There just doesn't seem to be anything unique about Dixie that translates to a moveset change.

Dixie uses her hair to attack primarily and in one of the DK games she had a high jump ability. As pointed out earlier, visually they might be similar but the differences are there.

I did see the ganon flame choke change and I personally loved it.

so my picks as of now include:
Preferred
Ridley or Dark Samus: The Metroid series could use some more representation and one of these two will do just fine.
Isaac: if they wanted to add a new series character I would suggest Isaac to represent golden sun.
saki: same as Isaac but for sin and punishment
Possible
Dixie: dk series doesn't need another rep but if they were to add one i'd vote for her.
black shadow or goroh: I honestly think that captain falcon is really the only character that is needed form the f-zero series but it would be awesome if they translated ganon's moveset over and freed up his moveset for a completely new one.
Lyn: fire emblem doesn't need anymore rep, but if they were to add someone i'd say lyn.


I've come to the conclusion that the sonic series probably shouldn't have another rep. not because I don't like the series but because sonic the hedgehog represents sonic the hedgehog well enough. he doesn't need anyone else.

MGS is fine being repped by just snake.

as for pichu.......

yea I think that just about sums it up.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Yeah but then we will have all the Gannondorf players complaining

Let them complain. They're wrong lol

And transitioning a moveset to a new model isn't as easy as it sounds; everything would have to be reanimated since Samurai Goroh does not share the same body type as Ganon, plus hitboxes would change drastically, effects would need to change, some moves wouldn't make sense for Goroh and need to be altered... plus Ganon would need an entirely new moveset...


Also, I highly doubt this change would be accepted by the community. I want Ganon to use a sword as well, in theory, but two games with his current moveset has kind of set it in stone.

Thats why black shadow would be better.. his body type fits ganondorf much better.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Present a good argument and I will.

In a world where someone smaller than a battery can be made the same size as Pikachu, size is no longer a reason to keep somebody out of Smash Bros. Clinging to "he's too big" is incredibly narrow-minded and doesn't acknowledge the fact that characters are constantly being resized for this game.

Wings out, he looks a tiny bit larger than Charizard in this picture, give or take a bit. What is the difference between Charizard and a resized Ridley? Removed fire effects? Sound effects? I found this on brawl vault, and it looks like what you guys are talking about. (http://forums.kc-mm.com/Gallery/BrawlView.php?Number=12295]Link[/url]) If you resize Ridley down to a reasonable size, he becomes the same as Charizard. Give him a size more like his games, and he becomes what he is in the SSE (a really cool boss battle).

What's the difference between Charizard and Ridley? Really? There's absolutely no reason to believe they'd be the same. Honestly, that Charizard model is pretty crappy. Charizard might be a good place to start for a model, but it would be a terrible place to end. Ridley would stand in a different position, a more hunched one. That would make it easier to keep him closer to his real size without making him actually too big. Really, he should be bigger even than Bowser when hunched.

You know why every single Ridley hack out there looks terrible? Because either they shrink the boss model without doing any extra work, or they retexture Charizard without doing any extra work. Now that's fine, because modeling, PSAs, and animations are incredibly difficult and time-consuming, but what we have so far is not representative of what could be done by a talented team of modelers and animators working hard on such a project, with the initial goal of making a good resized Ridley from the get-go. You really think the PMBR would slap a Ridley skin on a Charizard model and call it good? No. And frankly, if that's what you think they'd do, if you don't think they could make a good-looking Ridley, that's nothing short of insulting.

Olimar is irrelevant, as we are talking about larger, non-humanoid characters being downsized to fit, not the flip side. Even though it's confirmed that Olimar is the size of a nickel in his game, he still maintains his relative small size in scale of the rest of the cast.

Nope. You just don't want to admit that resizing has been done on a much bigger scale than this before.
Also, he's taller than Kirby and the same size as Pikachu. Yes, they're small too, but shouldn't he without a doubt be the smallest character in the game? And yet he's not. Doesn't sound like maintaining his scale to me.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

@Hero_42

I think arguing with Mithost is pointless, he has his mind set on Ridley being too big and he wont change it. His arguments make no sense, but its not worth going back and forth because it will be pointless. Lets just agree that he's wrong and move on.

 

[ChronoBound]

There is a term for people that are so rigid in their thinking that Ridley is the only character that can't ever be re-sized for Smash Bros.:
Too Bigots.

 

[red9rd]

So, ya Master Hand then?

 

[Mithost]

Making a character larger to make them fit the game is not the same as making them smaller to fit into the game. In the case of Olimar, he takes the size of a toddler because that's what his body proportions look like (with the obvious larger head for cartoony goodness).

I never said the Ridley hacks look terrible, I said the opposite. I actually think they look exactly like what everyone is explaining (a similar size to what he was in the melee intro), and I like the result. My confusion comes from how Ridley's moveset is supposedly different and unique. As of right now, anything Ridley can do is probably already in Charizard's moveset, or was thrown out during development for him. He could use his large wingspan to blow characters away (Charizard's Side B), he could spit acid/fire balls from his mouth (Charizard's neutral B), he could fly, and he would even be able to claw/bite his opponents on the ground and in the air (Charizard's Forward Air and Forward Tilt respectively).

You also stated that you want him larger than bowser. Why? Bowser is only really viable as a character because his entire moveset is based around him being huge and massive. Bowser takes up space on the stage, and that's his feature. Ridley can't use this size for anything other than clipping into background element and/or the platforms.

Also, I find it funny how people are talking about how '______' is probably going to be put in the game. You have to remember that they haven't added any new character that wasn't in a smash game yet, and doing so will be a big jump in this mod's history. They arn't going to make it some sidekick character from one of the lesser presented series, assuming they are going to add one in the first place.

 

[batistabus]

Can someone explain to me why they think Dixie Kong would make a good addition to the roster?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Can someone explain to me why they think Dixie Kong would make a good addition to the roster?

1) Female character in a mostly male dominated roster.
2) Important Donkey Kong Country cast member with a unique style of her own.
3) Fighting style that would be reminiscent of DK and Diddy's without being a copy of either.

Is there any need to go more into depth than these three simple statements?

 

[shinhed-echi]

I would love having Saki... but only if his moveset does him the justice he deserves. (Note he's my current 3rd most wanted character for Sm4sh)

Having him around would be simply AWESOME, and I too would main him in an instant as I'm a big fan of the S&P franchise.

He's not on my "most wanted" P:M characters due to two factors:

1.- I'm still confident he'll show up in Sm4sh, upgraded to fully playable character.

2.- People have already set their mind on the most popular choices, and Saki isn't exactly really popular in this community. (For shame, Smashboards, I expected better) ((J/K, it's all good anyway))


edit:
3.- I only feel like wanting characters that were "meant for Melee".

 

[ChronoBound]

Can someone explain to me why they think Dixie Kong would make a good addition to the roster?

Because she:
- Planned for Brawl
- Is popular
- Important to her series.
- One of the few game heroines that has never been sexualized or a damsel-in-distress (yet still sweet and feminine)
- Was a main protagonist in arguably among the best plaformers ever (DKC2 and DKC3)
- Could feasibly be a luigi-fied clone combination of DK and Diddy.
- Most people like her.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Because she:
- Could feasibly be a luigi-fied clone combination of DK and Diddy.

When you say Luigi-fied, I hope you don't mean low traction.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

So, ya Master Hand then?

Lol... im not sure if you're serious, just joking around, or being condescending.
So I'm just gona reply neutrally..

Master hand is a ridiculous comparison. He's a friggin hand! He also has only ever shown up in smash bros and acts solely as a boss character and works best as that.
It doesn't take a genius to see what characters actually would work as brawl fighters and what ones can only work as bosses.
Porky in his robot (or whatever) for example wouldn't work well as a playable character either.
Certain characters work best as bosses.

I'm sure the argument will be "well ridley is one of those characters". But no, he could work just fine, he has a similar shape to charizard, and wouldn't look out of place.

This is a silly argument, and people need to drop it.

 

[ChronoBound]

When you say Luigi-fied, I hope you don't mean low traction.

I mean being a "clone" character that has a lot of their own moves. I mean she would share her specials and Final Smash with DK and Diddy, but she would have a lot of her own A-moves. Think about how Luigi is (and how Roy is going to be in Project M).

 

[Shadow Huan]

Ganondorf's moveset is a good one for sure

but it is not Ganondorf. it is a bigger heavier Falcon.

keep Sparta kick and flame choke and port the rest to Black Shadow.

imo, the PMBR should give Ganondorf an actual Ganondorf moveset and Melee vets need to stop being afraid of change. Melee Ganondorf players have basically been playing Black Shadow all these years anyways, at least with that he will look like the correct character

 

[splat]

I think arguing [with Mithost] is pointless, he has his mind set on Ridley being too big and he wont change it. His arguments make no sense, but its not worth going back and forth because it will be pointless.

I think part of the 'too big' argument is, as I mentioned before in this thread, the proportions of Ridley.

Ridley, as he is portrayed in Brawl, is very lanky. He's designed in such a way that he looks good when he's big in size, but when he's scaled down he just looks.. anything but intimidating. Here's a video of a Ridley PSA that uses a downscaled Brawl model:

Spoiler

While I in no way mean to offend the creator of the PSA (I can tell there's been put a lot of work), I can't help but feel the model itself looks very awkward. And even though I think his actual height is about appropriate to work in a Smash environiment, his limbs and neck look just like a bunch of twigs - way too small; weak and powerless. It looks like his head is held up by a string of spaghetti.

I think there's two things needed to make Ridley actually work. Make him hunch a bit, like he does in this image (I forgot who made it, Oasis I think), so that his overall body size could be increased a bit - and give him some beef. Give him some muscles on those twigs, at least enough to make him look like he could actually exist without falling apart when he tries to stand up. I think making the girth comparable to Charizard's arms would work wonders in Ridley's case - or something like Melee's intro Ridley.

It'd mean creating a Ridley model from scratch, but I think that's something the PMBR would do either way, no matter how good a model in Brawl would be.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I mean being a "clone" character that has a lot of their own moves. I mean she would share her specials and Final Smash with DK and Diddy, but she would have a lot of her own A-moves. Think about how Luigi is (and how Roy is going to be in Project M).

Ah okay, I gotcha. Usually when I think Luigi, I think a slippery clone that slides all around the stage.

 

[AnOkayDM]

Making a character larger to make them fit the game is not the same as making them smaller to fit into the game.

It's exactly the same. Resizing a character is resizing a character. Doesn't matter which way you do it.

I never said the Ridley hacks look terrible, I said the opposite. I actually think they look exactly like what everyone is explaining (a similar size to what he was in the melee intro), and I like the result. My confusion comes from how Ridley's

moveset is supposedly different and unique. As of right now, anything Ridley can do is probably already in Charizard's moveset, or was thrown out during development for him. He could use his large wingspan to blow characters away (Charizard's Side B), he could spit acid/fire balls from his mouth (Charizard's neutral B), he could fly, and he would even be able to claw/bite his opponents on the ground and in the air (Charizard's Forward Air and Forward Tilt respectively)

Charizard lacks the viciousness and ferocity that Ridley would bring. Yeah, some of their moves might be similar. (Charizard breathes a stream of fire, though, whereas Ridley would probably shoot an actual fireball.) Just because some of their attacks are similar though, doesn't mean there's no reason to put him in the game. Look at Mario and Luigi.

Putting Ridley in his normal, hunched stance brings lots of different attack options that Charizard doesn't have or wouldn't use. I think he'd use his claws and tail much more, whereas Charizard uses his wings and mouth more. Plus I imagine him quicker than Charizard, and probably lighter, but with more jumps and aerial options, and a much better glider. In fact, he would probably be far better in the air than on the ground. There's a lot that can be done with Ridley.

You also stated that you want him larger than bowser. Why? Bowser is only really viable as a character because his entire moveset is based around him being huge and massive. Bowser takes up space on the stage, and that's his feature. Ridley can't use this size for anything other than clipping into background element and/or the platforms.

Well, if not bigger, than comparably big. He still has to be larger than Samus, and she's a tall lady.

EDIT: I don't know why that quote is broken in half like that, and I can't seem to fix it. Whatever.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

While I in no way mean to offend the creator of the PSA (I can tell there's been put a lot of work), I can't help but feel the model itself looks very awkward. And even though I think his actual height is about appropriate to work in a Smash environiment, his limbs and neck look just like a bunch of twigs - way too small; weak and powerless. It looks like his head is held up by a string of spaghetti.

I'm not sure what is wrong with the model.. it looks fine to me. I think the hack is actually great (it still needs work and perfecting). But visually he looks perfectly fine. These arguments make no sense to me.

 

[red9rd]

Lol... im not sure if you're serious, just joking around, or being condescending.
So I'm just gona reply neutrally..

Master hand is a ridiculous comparison. He's a friggin hand! He also has only ever shown up in smash bros and acts solely as a boss character and works best as that.
It doesn't take a genius to see what characters actually would work as brawl fighters and what ones can only work as bosses.
Porky in his robot (or whatever) for example wouldn't work well as a playable character either.
Certain characters work best as bosses.

I'm sure the argument will be "well ridley is one of those characters". But no, he could work just fine, he has a similar shape to charizard, and wouldn't look out of place.

This is a silly argument, and people need to drop it.

? Why is only being in the smash bros. games make him a bad choice? (even though that's wrong he was a boss in a Kirby game)
I think a Mecha-Porky would be perfect if they would customize one and add it. If you played Mother3 you would know they have many moves and it was hard to beat them all.

 

[MagnesD3]

Ridley aside, I see surprisingly little demand for Saki.

And that makes me very sad as he would be amazing

 

[Anti Guy]

They could maybe just give Goroh Ganondorf's old moveset (sans the purple flames) and redesign Ganondorf. Not to sound like a broken record, but I honestly wouldn't mind a Samurai Goroh that never used his sword, much in the same way that Falcon never uses his gun. lol

Yeah if they go the Captain Goroh route, they could just reskin Ganondorf, and maybe just change his side B to Ike's side B to be the sole katana move. It also happens to be the most stereotypical samurai move (the rapid sword draw), so it would as well.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Yeah if they go the Captain Goroh route, they could just reskin Ganondorf, and maybe just change his side B to Ike's side B to be the sole katana move. It also happens to be the most stereotypical samurai move (the rapid sword draw), so it would as well.

I really think Black Shadow would be the best rout as replacing ganondorfs current move set. He should be literally a skin with different sound effects and perhaps gfx too. Everything else should work exactly like ganondorf.. this would hopefully keep the current ganondorf lovers at bay while bringing us a new awesome ganondorf move set.

Now that being said, I'm fine with Goroh being in the game with his own move set, OR he could even be a partial clone, but if anything is changed from ganondorf (even the proportions) that would piss a lota people off if he was a ganondorf replacement. If he were added additionally to Black Shadow, as a partial clone, cool! I have thought of Ikes side B as a good ganondorf/demise move though.