Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
Proposal: We ignore anything this kid says about this matchup, we seem to know enough already to not need his bias. >_> It's getting annoying now.
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Cheese
- Thread starter Bouse
- Start date
If allowed I still vote to postpone this matchup as it seems to be "highly untested" and I would rather not force a biased matchup opinion.
.....This was a great discussion even though we had some flames but I just think the opinions are vastly diffrent and should be tested at high levels of play....not mediocre levels of play.
.....This was a great discussion even though we had some flames but I just think the opinions are vastly diffrent and should be tested at high levels of play....not mediocre levels of play.
Ahh **** double post sry...I'll just edit to make it useful.
Edit Fine 7:3 is appropriate Arkive
However Falco is much harder for Link than fox. Therefore Fox..Link should not recieve the same match up of Falco..Link.
Something needs to change.
Edit Fine 7:3 is appropriate Arkive
However Falco is much harder for Link than fox. Therefore Fox..Link should not recieve the same match up of Falco..Link.
Something needs to change.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i play fox and link and i'm pretty sure fox would at least be 7:3
my fox combo's are sexy
my fox combo's are sexy
4Serial
Smash Lord
Link and Samus have different z-airs. Link can combo out of it way better than Samus can, and he can spam it a lot more since he falls fast and his short hop doesn't go as high as Samus'. Samus' has a lot more range and is better as a spacing tool. She seems to have a lot of those...
Don't forget me
Legan
Smash Lord
Playing against fox's on wifi is rediculous, I totally lost an online tourney because of delay. I **** my way through brackets lag free, then i get to the finals with a fox that decides to turn on his pornz and I never stood a chance. I literally had to sit there and watch as fox ran ALLLLLLLL the way across FD to upsmash me repeatedly and I couldnt do a thing about it. Characters with moves that take very few frames to execute **** on wifi, and alot of the time it is physically impossible to react in time.
4Serial
Smash Lord
Agreed. Wifi makes Link an even worse character. Either don't play Wifi, or choose another character to play, for competitive reasons anyways. Wolf is pretty broken on Wifi lol. I've played a Fox once on lag-fi and he did dash attack > u-tilt, drill > u-tilt or u-smash, and roll to the other sides of FD and laser camp.. It's so weird how one of the most technical skill demanding character in Melee changed into this. Even more weird that Link got worse from Melee, and even more worse on Wifi. Ike gets better on wifi =[.... dammit, sakurai.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i honestly think fox is nerfed hardcore on wifi, double shines are too hard to pull off, jab combos are harder, connecting with the bair is a ***** and countless of other stupid nerfs because of lag you have to worry about.
M@v
Subarashii!
ok smarty tell every little thing about fox there is to know then MAYBE ill respect that comment. God forbid I don't know every little thing about link. Sorry im freaking human.I don't want to be in an argument, but you seem to be
On topic Falco is NOT simply a better fox. Fox is fine being with falco on the matchup. Falco Cgs to spikes link, and fox throws him to shine. Either way its a hard to avoid thing. But like anything, skill>character.(except maybe in cf vs mk >_>)
lolwut
So in other words, you don't have experience in this matchup, and therefore the entire community needs to file it under "highly untested?"
---
Link gets gimped to hell and back. If he gets hit at all off the edge, he's dead. Bair, Nair, Shine, Dair...they'll all kill him.
On the ground, Link can't camp Fox; Fox can't camp Link. Link's best chance is slow approaches with his projectiles. If you do get hit by Fox, it opens up so many setups and combos that it's ridiculous. Link can stop Fox's approaches...but only to an extent. Fox just outprioritizes and outrapes 90% of what Link can throw at him.
In the air...Nair comes out fast and breaks through most things, Bair is just ridiculous against Link, and Fair will hit for the full 23% a lot of the time. Dair sets up into the usual, etc. etc.
Zair isn't much of an obstacle for Fox, because Fox won't need to approach most of the time. He's also fast enough to slide a shield under a Zair into a quick grab or jab before Link can recover from the landing frames.
The real problem isn't that Link doesn't have answers to Fox. It's that whatever answer Link throws out, Fox can get around with something else, and Link simply isn't fast enough to counter it all. On the occasions that Link is able to get on the offensive, his options are limited, and Fox can get around most of them.
7:3 Fox.
D
Deleted member
Guest
ya till i **** 60% from you on each stock
I only said that because the arguement was so fierce.....and I didn't want anybody to be offended.
It is that simple. That is the matchup deal with it. Maybe not in other matchups but that is the way it is here.
Fox fox to gimp he must shine off stage
Falco can CG from the middle and dair.....its 10X more dangerous.
Also WTF.....Everytime I see a fox player talk they still don't understand that Link does not play Long range or short range. I don't care what you rate it as long as you can grasp the matchup and understand both chracters metagame. Fox players clearly don't understand Links metagame with the evidence they have thrown out.
He plays midrange. Which means ya he approaches a laser spam but not into Fox's melee range. From my experience, Fox can't space well unless he uses his speed advantage. It forces spacing and movement therefore zair is always a threat.... In ANY MATCHUP.
Xcept MK of course....He defines all laws. Did you hear. MK can now teleport you under the stage.
WTF Sakuri.....Give him a bazooka why don't ya.
Bouse I cant take much more of this....When will you make your decision????
This is wrong in every way shape and form. When going against Link....... Falco>Fox..
It is that simple. That is the matchup deal with it. Maybe not in other matchups but that is the way it is here.
Fox fox to gimp he must shine off stage
Falco can CG from the middle and dair.....its 10X more dangerous.
Also WTF.....Everytime I see a fox player talk they still don't understand that Link does not play Long range or short range. I don't care what you rate it as long as you can grasp the matchup and understand both chracters metagame. Fox players clearly don't understand Links metagame with the evidence they have thrown out.
He plays midrange. Which means ya he approaches a laser spam but not into Fox's melee range. From my experience, Fox can't space well unless he uses his speed advantage. It forces spacing and movement therefore zair is always a threat.... In ANY MATCHUP.
Xcept MK of course....He defines all laws. Did you hear. MK can now teleport you under the stage.
WTF Sakuri.....Give him a bazooka why don't ya.
Bouse I cant take much more of this....When will you make your decision????
MK can teleport you under the stage? What?
M@v
Subarashii!
laughing out loud...
10jokes
Fine 3:7 sounds acceptable.........
Can't believe both Fox and Falco got 3:7 though....Falco ***** Link more I believe......Falco should be moved to 7.5 or 8 but whatever.......I lost intrerest As long as we can move the discussion.
Can't believe both Fox and Falco got 3:7 though....Falco ***** Link more I believe......Falco should be moved to 7.5 or 8 but whatever.......I lost intrerest As long as we can move the discussion.
4Serial
Smash Lord
LOL throw > shine with Fox is not as guaranteed as Falco's cg > d-air spike on Link. that's just stupid.
M@v
Subarashii!
let me re phrase. As link against falco or fox, being off of the stage is a very, VERY bad thing, because dair spike and shine own link off stage...
Blubba_Pinecone
Smash Ace
I already posted my stuff on this match earlier, not my fault you can't read. My only advice for you is to follow the advice I gave the Mimic King. End of story.
*Edited because the quote tags got messed up. <_< >_>
D
Deleted member
Guest
please explain our character more to us, i don't think we understand that being off the stage is bad
all you have to watch for is the dair > jab > grab > fthrow
if you space fox this shouldn't be that bad of a match
Fox is possibly closer to 35:65, but yeah. It's still a cruddy match-up for Link.
Fox is 30:70 leaning on 35:65 and Falco is 30:70 leaning on 25:75.
Reasons:
+ Your Zair outranges Fox, and is fantastic against him.
+ DAC caught bombs are hilarious against a reflector spammer.
+ Fox's lasers don't provide hindrance to Link's movement.
+ Fox should be dead at 125%.
- Fox's recovery is much better than Falco's.
- Fox's offstage game is fantastic against Link.
- Fox is fast as a crap after eating too much gum
- Fox's ability to "combo" is annoying as hell.
Why I'm not going to say Fox:Link is 35:65 or 40:60.
ZAC have to be seamless and used for situational mindgaming.
Bombed Zairs have to be used to mindgame seamlessly as well.
To DI+Zair recover against the Dsmash requires anticipation and timing.
I evaluate these match-ups at a semi-pro level. Meaning sub-Deva/Izaw/etc. level. While pro level players might make the match-up closer to 40:60, that's at the pro level. At the pro level most matches will never leave the 40-60:60-40 range.
Fox is 30:70 leaning on 35:65 and Falco is 30:70 leaning on 25:75.
Reasons:
+ Your Zair outranges Fox, and is fantastic against him.
+ DAC caught bombs are hilarious against a reflector spammer.
+ Fox's lasers don't provide hindrance to Link's movement.
+ Fox should be dead at 125%.
- Fox's recovery is much better than Falco's.
- Fox's offstage game is fantastic against Link.
- Fox is fast as a crap after eating too much gum
- Fox's ability to "combo" is annoying as hell.
Why I'm not going to say Fox:Link is 35:65 or 40:60.
ZAC have to be seamless and used for situational mindgaming.
Bombed Zairs have to be used to mindgame seamlessly as well.
To DI+Zair recover against the Dsmash requires anticipation and timing.
I evaluate these match-ups at a semi-pro level. Meaning sub-Deva/Izaw/etc. level. While pro level players might make the match-up closer to 40:60, that's at the pro level. At the pro level most matches will never leave the 40-60:60-40 range.
4Serial
Smash Lord
I'm good with Fox being 35:65.
I actually thought that Falco was 20:80, along with DDD.
I think jabs/f-tilt/u-tilt is good against Fox..
I actually thought that Falco was 20:80, along with DDD.
I think jabs/f-tilt/u-tilt is good against Fox..
Deva
Smash Lord
lol, I like how Bouse just said "Deva, your opinion no longer matters in this thread cuz you dont play at the same level, so everything you say will be irrelevant to the overall purpose of understanding Link's matchups, cuz what you do against them doesnt count." lulz.
But yeah, Fox I think is like somewhere around 40/60 even at the semi-pro level. Link can just space and kill him so easily. And although Fox has an amazing off stage game, he wont be getting Link into gimpable situations all that often with the way a competent Link can space. So 40/60, fox's favor.
But yeah, Fox I think is like somewhere around 40/60 even at the semi-pro level. Link can just space and kill him so easily. And although Fox has an amazing off stage game, he wont be getting Link into gimpable situations all that often with the way a competent Link can space. So 40/60, fox's favor.
I know what you mean Link pretty much own Fox if you know what ur doing. i 3 stock a Fox player with ease b/c i was projecting him to death with the zair of course. but most of the time i own links most of them. not trying to brag of anything but a Fox vs link is really hard if a Fox player knows link in and out considerating he's my main.
I just can't weight your opinion too heavily, otherwise it's an unreasonable expectation of the match-up for an Average to Semi-Pro Link player. I'm just simply saying that because of your high level of skill, I can't devote as hefty an amount of attention to your opinion. If I could rely entirely on yours and Izaw's opinion, I would.
D
Deleted member
Guest
thats like saying all of the facts i've stated don't matter lol....
or you're implying that i'm a #baddie lol >_>
They matter, Jesus Christ you people are being emo. Let me explain something: At the highest possible level of skill every match-up gets closer and closer.
To a Link player who may not be new, but new to the competitive scene to use the pro-level match-up would seem inaccurate to that player. The reason being, Link has innate disadvantages and advantages against each character. Hell, a god-mode Link player could potentially live to +200% against every character, and never lose. At a certain point the closer you get to perfect the less realistic it is to say that this is the average competitive level of play for that character.
To a Link player who may not be new, but new to the competitive scene to use the pro-level match-up would seem inaccurate to that player. The reason being, Link has innate disadvantages and advantages against each character. Hell, a god-mode Link player could potentially live to +200% against every character, and never lose. At a certain point the closer you get to perfect the less realistic it is to say that this is the average competitive level of play for that character.
D
Deleted member
Guest
opposite way around, at the highest level of skill that's when match ups truly start to take effect. 90% of the smash community isn't at this high level of skill and that is why people often say "tiers don't exist." they've never gotten to the point where you're character's strengths have maxed out even though you still feel like you can go higher. so at this level you can't afford to make mistakes, but thats extremely difficult when your own character is making mistakes for you.
sure you might see me or deva beat sk92, but we're going to have a hell of a hard time fcking beating him
Jink
Smash Apprentice
Link's FTilt will go through (not hitting) Zelda when she does her FAir or BAir.
I know this is off-topic, but I wanted to post it before I forgot it.
I know this is off-topic, but I wanted to post it before I forgot it.
ShieryuSilvr
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2008
- Messages
- 100
Link vs MK is like 20-80 in my opinion. Zair fails, hard to pull off grabs on MK. Plus, Link is easily gimped by MK.
I'll put some info in here if ya don't mind. I main Meta Knight (and second Link) so I'll be glad to help with some info if I can.
The matchup seems Uphill for Link, considering that Meta Knight can outprioritize most attacks. Not to mention he's speedy and is effective in the air.
Now, a normal arrow won't hit Meta's tornado, but a fully charged arrow can peirce through his tornado. Projectiles have to be over 12% damage in order to stop the tornado, or have some kind of range to hit the eye of the tornado, which is where his Zair and bombs may come into play.
A cool trick I came across to is that if Meta grabs Link and Dthrows, the moment Link is out and DI away from him, he could use the Zair to keep Meta Knight off from doing a combo. This is the same when he's caught in the tornado.
The matchup seems Uphill for Link, considering that Meta Knight can outprioritize most attacks. Not to mention he's speedy and is effective in the air.
Now, a normal arrow won't hit Meta's tornado, but a fully charged arrow can peirce through his tornado. Projectiles have to be over 12% damage in order to stop the tornado, or have some kind of range to hit the eye of the tornado, which is where his Zair and bombs may come into play.
A cool trick I came across to is that if Meta grabs Link and Dthrows, the moment Link is out and DI away from him, he could use the Zair to keep Meta Knight off from doing a combo. This is the same when he's caught in the tornado.
4Serial
Smash Lord
rofl, hey Rockin, how did the online tourney go? I thought you mained Peach D:
Jabbing MK is really good because it'll beat his dash attack/grab approach, and hit up out of a short hop if he isn't quick with the f-air or b-air (not really sure if jab actually beats those moves, but if you're quick enough you can stop him). Jabbing limits MKs approaching options.
Z-air helps a little bit in this match up, but not as much as you would hope. It can stop him if he's gliding towards you after an up+b (retreating z-air) and it can knock him out of a tornado if you hit him at the opening frames. It will take him out of his short hop approaches, but MKs like to take advantage of their ground speed.
MK has a long reaching dash grab, and jabs can stop it. A lot of MKs use their dash attack because it pokes shields and slides behind you and can lead into other attacks very easily. Jabbing can stop that.
F-tilt will beat his tornado, I THINK that reverse u-tilt will, but i'm not sure. F-smash should beat it.. Anything from above will beat the tornado. A charged arrow will beat the tornado, but MKs won't use it at that much of a distance..
Metaknights shuttleloop is so broken as a recovery and a killer. Airdodge wisely in combos, and i suggest that you don't try to use an attack to stop him in the middle of a combo because it will most likely work against you. Edgeguarding MK is silly. I suppose a fullhop (maybe double jumped) d-air while still being on the stage might work. I would not take my chances off the edge. D-airs hitbox is pathetic, and if the shuttleloop hits you from the sides, you're finished. Learn the arc of his shuttleloop and make sure the d-air is placed well. MK's like to use glide > glide attack, so retreat, do retreating z-airs, throw stuff at him, etc. You can't gimp MK from edgeguarding, the best you can do in the situation is punish him and rack up percent.
MK's shield game is really good.. d-smash out of shield wrecks. He can n-air or any aerial out of shield very quickly. I guess he can up+b out of shield... and he can tornado ouf of shield if he feels pressured. I think it's just a common thing for every character than you have to space well against their shield. If you do an aerial like n-air or f-air, do jabs right after so maybe you can hit him before he can take action.
Jab is the best imo. D-air is murder for MK. F-tilt seems good.
Jabbing MK is really good because it'll beat his dash attack/grab approach, and hit up out of a short hop if he isn't quick with the f-air or b-air (not really sure if jab actually beats those moves, but if you're quick enough you can stop him). Jabbing limits MKs approaching options.
Z-air helps a little bit in this match up, but not as much as you would hope. It can stop him if he's gliding towards you after an up+b (retreating z-air) and it can knock him out of a tornado if you hit him at the opening frames. It will take him out of his short hop approaches, but MKs like to take advantage of their ground speed.
MK has a long reaching dash grab, and jabs can stop it. A lot of MKs use their dash attack because it pokes shields and slides behind you and can lead into other attacks very easily. Jabbing can stop that.
F-tilt will beat his tornado, I THINK that reverse u-tilt will, but i'm not sure. F-smash should beat it.. Anything from above will beat the tornado. A charged arrow will beat the tornado, but MKs won't use it at that much of a distance..
Metaknights shuttleloop is so broken as a recovery and a killer. Airdodge wisely in combos, and i suggest that you don't try to use an attack to stop him in the middle of a combo because it will most likely work against you. Edgeguarding MK is silly. I suppose a fullhop (maybe double jumped) d-air while still being on the stage might work. I would not take my chances off the edge. D-airs hitbox is pathetic, and if the shuttleloop hits you from the sides, you're finished. Learn the arc of his shuttleloop and make sure the d-air is placed well. MK's like to use glide > glide attack, so retreat, do retreating z-airs, throw stuff at him, etc. You can't gimp MK from edgeguarding, the best you can do in the situation is punish him and rack up percent.
MK's shield game is really good.. d-smash out of shield wrecks. He can n-air or any aerial out of shield very quickly. I guess he can up+b out of shield... and he can tornado ouf of shield if he feels pressured. I think it's just a common thing for every character than you have to space well against their shield. If you do an aerial like n-air or f-air, do jabs right after so maybe you can hit him before he can take action.
Jab is the best imo. D-air is murder for MK. F-tilt seems good.
jamus
Smash Apprentice
I versed a truly good metaknight for the first time last night and I got owned...I could hardly get a hit in. The only the attack that seemed to do ok was the d-air.
When I was trying to recover I got owned by the shuttle loop.
I would say this matchup is heavily in metaknights favour.
When I was trying to recover I got owned by the shuttle loop.
I would say this matchup is heavily in metaknights favour.
Are we still playing super smash brothers brawl?
I thought not. Easily the best character in the game and may soon become the only viable tourney option.
*That Picture Came from Ankoku who posted it on all is brawl*
70:30 or 80:20
I won't even bother explaining why. Everything fails against meta knight.
I thought not. Easily the best character in the game and may soon become the only viable tourney option.
*That Picture Came from Ankoku who posted it on all is brawl*
70:30 or 80:20
I won't even bother explaining why. Everything fails against meta knight.
lonewolfe
Smash Journeyman
Counterpick Norfair, then dair.
On a more serious note, having a bomb in hand is useful, you can throw it down on him as he approaches, leading to nair,etc...or if you get knocked off the stage, you might get a bomb jump in before he gimps you.
On a more serious note, having a bomb in hand is useful, you can throw it down on him as he approaches, leading to nair,etc...or if you get knocked off the stage, you might get a bomb jump in before he gimps you.
I wanted to main Peach so badly, but Meta Knight was chosen simply because i can work with his agressive style. I heavily second peach. Yes, sad D:
The Dair best works if you was launched in the air and you feel a shuttle loop about to hit. The dair of Links protects his body and seeing how strong it is, can kill Meta off screen at about 50% (depends on the stage)
Time to explain the shuttle loop.
At the beginning of the attack, Meta Knight has some invincibility frames, and depending where Meta stands, it can send the opponent at different directions. If meta uses it while on the ground, it sends the opponent up in a upper cut. If meta does it in the air, it sends them forward. If the opponent touches Meta's body while doing an up B, it'll send them back. Meta knight has 3 different types of hitboxes when he does this attack. He can do this out of shield when pressured and there's little to no punish to the move. He can Dsmash out of shield, which is also an nice shield game. After an Up b, they usually do a glide attack, which is strong and has nice range. Because you can autolag it, he can quickly do another attack just as quickly when they sheild. Most use Up B > glide attack > Dsmash because Dsmash is a strong attack with less lag. Your best bet to counter this is to either shield all the attack and then move away or grab at right timing.
Here's another good combo. If you're sent up and you have moderate damage, they can Uair, uair, uair, uair, and then rising tornado to hopefully kill you uptop (like on stages such as Battlefield and smashvile)
The Dair best works if you was launched in the air and you feel a shuttle loop about to hit. The dair of Links protects his body and seeing how strong it is, can kill Meta off screen at about 50% (depends on the stage)
Time to explain the shuttle loop.
At the beginning of the attack, Meta Knight has some invincibility frames, and depending where Meta stands, it can send the opponent at different directions. If meta uses it while on the ground, it sends the opponent up in a upper cut. If meta does it in the air, it sends them forward. If the opponent touches Meta's body while doing an up B, it'll send them back. Meta knight has 3 different types of hitboxes when he does this attack. He can do this out of shield when pressured and there's little to no punish to the move. He can Dsmash out of shield, which is also an nice shield game. After an Up b, they usually do a glide attack, which is strong and has nice range. Because you can autolag it, he can quickly do another attack just as quickly when they sheild. Most use Up B > glide attack > Dsmash because Dsmash is a strong attack with less lag. Your best bet to counter this is to either shield all the attack and then move away or grab at right timing.
Here's another good combo. If you're sent up and you have moderate damage, they can Uair, uair, uair, uair, and then rising tornado to hopefully kill you uptop (like on stages such as Battlefield and smashvile)