Charicific Valley • The Project: M Charizard General Discussion Thread

[MaxThunder]

more range... not much different speed...

 

[JOE!]

Fsmash outranges side b?

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

good question... i guess checking out data would answer that :D
fsmash sweetspot more knockback? bigger ranged?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'll get on it.

Fire Sneeze:
Total: 65
Hits: 21-24, 25-27, 28-30, 31-33
IASA?: 60
The initial hit deals 15 damage with angle 30, BKB of 20, and KBG of 100, the subsequent hits are weaker by 2 each compared to the last, but if all hits land it seems capable of easily doing 40+%. There are also weird, large, no-knockback hitboxes that eat shields to hell surrounding all of the main hitboxes of the move.

F-smash:
Total: 63~123
Charge for up to 60 frames starting on 11
Hit: 17-25 ~ 77-85
This move has 3 hitboxes. The flub-hit neck hitboxes become weaker on frame 24~84. They start with 17 Damage each, one with the Sakurai Angle and one with angle 40, both have 40 BKB and 106 KBG. From frame 24~84, they deal only 14 Damage.
The fire sweetspot, on his head, has less priority than the neck hitboxes and is thus very unlikely to connect. However, it deals 22 Damage with angle 35, BKB of 40, and KBG of 91

Both of these moves are kind of confusing to examine tbh, but F-smash has faster startup and is overall quite stronger for out-right killing. Side-B has more damage output and a more gimp-friendly angle, is marginally quicker to end, and has more utilities such as its range and a friendly RBR length.

As a comparison: Ike's F-smash sweetspot hits on 31-37 with 25 Damage and Sakurai angle, 45 BKB, and 100 Growth; the more typical hit of Ike's F-smash is identical except that it deals 22 damage instead, and has less hitlag and more shield damage.

 

[MaxThunder]

they have about the same range when counting the no-knockback hitboxes of side-b... but if the opponent is not gonna be right next to you and you have the opportunity to f-smash, then f-smash is the way to go...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

So the Fsmash sweetspot is stronger and has longer range?

If you hit the opponent with the first SideB sweetspot, does the enemy get hit by any other attacks? Do these apply aditional knockback or slow the enemy?

Just from playing i'd say that Fsmash is really hard to get the sweetspot of, so except when you force the opponent to recover in a path you know he'll take, or after shieldbreak/rests, it is really punishable. longer vulnerability without hitboxes, smaller area where it hits, moves into the opponent (so shield means free anything)...
SideB covers alot better as you can do it while retreating, it has multiple hits and less time vulnerability after hitboxes are gone

 

[Ace55]

I think it'd be cool to use flamethrower while Charizard is gliding. I think it would help on his recovery.

This would be epic! B flamethrower, A glide attack.

 

[Kink-Link5]

But what about just ending the glide?

So the Fsmash sweetspot is stronger and has longer range?

If you hit the opponent with the first SideB sweetspot, does the enemy get hit by any other attacks? Do these apply aditional knockback or slow the enemy?

Just from playing i'd say that Fsmash is really hard to get the sweetspot of, so except when you force the opponent to recover in a path you know he'll take, or after shieldbreak/rests, it is really punishable. longer vulnerability without hitboxes, smaller area where it hits, moves into the opponent (so shield means free anything)...
SideB covers alot better as you can do it while retreating, it has multiple hits and less time vulnerability after hitboxes are gone

F-smash sweetspot has less range in most regards than any of Side-B's hitboxes. If you can think of a way to put the opponent in front of you a little distance, in hitstun, and open, by all means use F-smash since it will reach them before Side-B could and will be more impacting. Otherwise the disjoint on Side-B is larger and safer.

If Side-B1 connects, the other hits can as well. Because of the way knockback stacks, opposing vector components are added together and non-opposing ones use the greater of the two, whether it is the initial hit or any of the latter ones. So in this case, the stronger knockback will prevail overall since the knockback vectors are parallel. There is a very, very small influence DI'ing the second and onward hits will have on the knockback compared to the first.

The hits connect sooner than 10 frames apart, so yes, the second knockback will completely override the first.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yeah, i just dismissed the SideB range, because you dont really want to use it just to get weak hits, do you?

 

[MaxThunder]

So the Fsmash sweetspot is stronger and has longer range?

If you hit the opponent with the first SideB sweetspot, does the enemy get hit by any other attacks? Do these apply aditional knockback or slow the enemy?

Just from playing i'd say that Fsmash is really hard to get the sweetspot of, so except when you force the opponent to recover in a path you know he'll take, or after shieldbreak/rests, it is really punishable. longer vulnerability without hitboxes, smaller area where it hits, moves into the opponent (so shield means free anything)...
SideB covers alot better as you can do it while retreating, it has multiple hits and less time vulnerability after hitboxes are gone

yeah but if you know you'll hit them and they won't be in range of the sweetspot or close to sweetspot hitboxes of side-b, then f-smash will hit harder=)...
but yeah it's more risky...

 

[JOE!]

Early in this vid is something I always found interesting that they did in Brawl- :

Zard- 's Dair had a landing hitbox that made a "mini" Dsmash (that could bury people but that's beside the point). How cool would it be if you could do something similar if spaced just right? I'd love it when chasing people up on platforms

 

[Kink-Link5]

+1 to miniature shield poking Earthquake on non-L-canceled Dair landing. It would be dumb as **** but neat to see tested.

 

[Ace55]

But what about just ending the glide?

Jump? That's how I've been doing it all along.

 

[metroid1117]

Jump? That's how I've been doing it all along.

I've never canceled glide with jump... I guess you learn something new everyday lol.

 

[Ace55]

Well sorry guys you're gonna have to relearn your buttons because we're getting a flying flamethrower!

Right? d:

I honestly didn't know you could cancel it with B.

 

[Drike]

As far as glide's usefulness, I like to use a charged down b whenever my opponent respawns. Then, I glide around at the top of the map. I find it very effective for avoiding revenge kills and waiting out their invincibility frames. Typically I drop down with a nair after their invincibility runs out.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

It's a bit risky, i wouldn't use your glide to stall out invincibility. your not that safe when you are above the opponent, and being hit off without glide can be quite dangerous.

but yeah... i do it too :D



I attended another tournament this weekend, Did quite satisfactory i might say! Videos will be up this week i guess.
Ice was in attendance, if you guys know him I've got a surprise for all charizards out there! get hyped

 

[Kink-Link5]

Super Fly by itself combined with Zard's fast run speed to bait invincibility is generally more than enough, even on tough stages like FD. Glide is generally pretty good for playing Softzard though.

 

[Drike]

It's a bit risky, i wouldn't use your glide to stall out invincibility. your not that safe when you are above the opponent, and being hit off without glide can be quite dangerous.

Yeah it's surely dangerous if you don't pay attention to where they spawn. They can jump out of spawn and aerial. It also might not be the best idea against Bowser and Charizard, seeing as how they can both move up very quickly. It can probably get predictable too; however, it is definitely a useful trick used intelligently and in moderation.

 

[Oracle]

I would like the landing hitbox on dair as a fix to the fact that if you sh dair under platforms you warp up and land on them

 

[metroid1117]

I would like the landing hitbox on dair as a fix to the fact that if you sh dair under platforms you warp up and land on them

Unfortunately, this seems to be caused by the fact that Charizard's feet get pulled up to his chest, which causes him to land early on platforms due to Melee landing detection =/.

 

[Oracle]

thats why I suggested the landing hitbox; it would mitigate that problem

 

[GunBlaze]

thats why I suggested the landing hitbox; it would mitigate that problem

How strong would it be? I'm kinda lost in this.

 

[Oracle]

Nvm it actually wouldnt let you dair people under platforms. Thats what I get for posting while half asleep

 

[Kink-Link5]

It would still hit people under platforms if the hitbox itself was placed below Charizard. DK's groundslap can hit Ganondorf standing below him.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Why isn't there anything going on in the charizard boards :D
I'm sure there is still gimmicks to discover and combos to figure out!

So, just out of curiosity, what do you think may be his worst matchup? I cant really judge that at all yet...

 

[Kink-Link5]

ZSS and Link from my own personal experiences with the matchups.

 

[Drike]

He gets killed by projectile spammers like Link and TL because he's so big and has no defense against projectiles (Bowser is big, but at least he can crawl if he really needs to go through projectiles without hitstun). I would also agree ZSS is pretty good against him. I feel like Charizard is actually pretty decent against the fast-fallers. He has so many options against them, most notably back-throw to dashing down smash. I think He can hold his own against Fox and even more so against Falco because Charizard is a gimp machine and Falco is the king of getting gimped.

 

[metroid1117]

ZSS and Link from my own personal experiences with the matchups.

Oro and I might not be playing our characters as optimally as possible, but ZSS doesn't seem that bad.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

i thought spammy characters were pretty bad, and i have troubles against characters like pit, ivy and zelda, but against Fastfallers i got along just fine. The Link matchup was alright aswell, your nair takes care of most projectiles i think.

I think zelda is a really tough one to crack though, but maybe thats just because i'm not used to dealing with her SideB

 

[HeWhoCanSee]

Hey, guys. My sister and I have a lot of fun playing Project M and she's maining Charizard, but she doesn't have a lot of experience in Smash and I'm just kind of dumb. Can I have some sort of primer about what sort of general tools a Charizard should be using?

 

[Drike]

I can try to help! Before the first hit, look for nair, jab, and shield grab. Once you get a hit, combo with dsmash, dair, and more jabs. When they are within killing percentage, your best killing moves are uair to up B, and back throw/jab to fair/side B. Charizard also has many ways to get gimps. Look for dairs when edge guarding or, if they are bad at sweet spotting their recovery, dsmash to meteor smash. Charizard's dthrow also meteors if they are off the stage (back throw links into a dthrow if they have a regular falling speed and don't DI correctly). I would check out the video thread for more general tips and strategies.

 

[Ace55]

I can try to help! Before the first hit, look for nair, jab, and shield grab. Once you get a hit, combo with dsmash, dair, and more jabs. When they are within killing percentage, your best killing moves are uair to up B, and back throw/jab to fair/side B. Charizard also has many ways to get gimps. Look for dairs when edge guarding or, if they are bad at sweet spotting their recovery, dsmash to meteor smash. Charizard's dthrow also meteors if they are off the stage (back throw links into a dthrow if they have a regular falling speed and don't DI correctly). I would check out the video thread for more general tips and strategies.

Hmm, no offense but dsmash and dair aren't exactly bread and butter combo moves, more like techchase moves that function as amazing combo starters. Jab, utilt, upsmash, upair, non sweetspot fair/dtilt and nair fit the first description much better.

 

[Ace55]

Oro and I might not be playing our characters as optimally as possible, but ZSS doesn't seem that bad.

Agreed, I feel like the ZSS matchup is lot better than someone like Sheik.

Edit: whoops double post

 

[MegaGuy]

Hey, been trying out Zard in teams with friends, and he really seems to dominate there. I had absolutely no problem chasing people my partners would set up, and on top of that he's a killing machine. Definitely going to be spending more time with him.

 

[Drike]

Hmm, no offense but dsmash and dair aren't exactly bread and butter combo moves, more like techchase moves that function as amazing combo starters. Jab, utilt, upsmash, upair, non sweetspot fair/dtilt and nair fit the first description much better.

I would agree that dsmash is more of a tech chase, but i was trying to keep my post short so i put it in combo moves (cuz tech chases and combos are the same, right? :D). With that being said, i think Charizard's dair is underestimated. it is an incredible combo move. At first I thought it was more of a noob move, good for meteoring unsuspecting newbies. But no. I might use dair too much, but I use it for comboing quite often. Nair is a great move, but it seems like a combo ender to me. I rarely get to combo out of it and usually when I try, I regret it.

Hey, been trying out Zard in teams with friends, and he really seems to dominate there. I had absolutely no problem chasing people my partners would set up, and on top of that he's a killing machine. Definitely going to be spending more time with him.

I agree! Because of Charizard's unique air-chase move, I feel Charizard is great for teams. He can use down B to get up to those hard to reach places where your partner cannot finish his combos. Also, Charizard's back throw is great for comboing with your teammate because it has good hitstun.

 

[MegaGuy]

Yo tech-chasing with Zard is so scary. You can straight-up take stocks with one good read. Charizard's attributes mesh so well with my playstyle, and as a result I've had so much fun with our Fire/Flying friend. I've found a new champion for P:M.

But I'll be dropping everyone for once he gets released.

 

[Ace55]

I would agree that dsmash is more of a tech chase, but i was trying to keep my post short so i put it in combo moves (cuz tech chases and combos are the same, right? :D).

Nah combos and techchases are pretty different but it's all good.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

JUPJUP.

Btw ace, i might still be coming, but traveling to you is more expensive than i thought :

 

[Ace55]

*Looks up Freiburg*

Yeah you're not exactly on the border lol. It would be awesome if you could make it though.