Charicific Valley • The Project: M Charizard General Discussion Thread

[RaynEX]

Yeah I saw that one of his changes was reduced frame advantage on dthrow. I'll have to test it somehow; sad day if he can't punish tech-in-place with dsmash. I was trying to punish missed techs / tech-in-place with jab (quick start-up, launches), but it also has nerfed IASA frames so you get nothing if they d.i. away. Sadface

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

knowing what followups actually work out of downthrow would be awesome...
do we have anyone who can check on frame data?

 

[GunBlaze]

Yeah I saw that one of his changes was reduced frame advantage on dthrow. I'll have to test it somehow; sad day if he can't punish tech-in-place with dsmash. I was trying to punish missed techs / tech-in-place with jab (quick start-up, launches), but it also has nerfed IASA frames so you get nothing if they d.i. away. Sadface

No, he can't anymore

 

[metroid1117]

I was trying to punish missed techs / tech-in-place with jab (quick start-up, launches), but it also has nerfed IASA frames so you get nothing if they d.i. away. Sadface

I don't think jab was changed in terms of IASA frames; I think they only made it more SDI-able, tweaked how much damage it does, and increased its knockback.

 

[RaynEX]

Ah, I see. All in all it feels harder to combo with it. Probably the increased knockback.

 

[Taste]

I'm wondering, how do people utilize wavedashing/landing with charizard? Are there any little tactics/ setups you've had success with?

 

[metroid1117]

I'm wondering, how do people utilize wavedashing/landing with charizard? Are there any little tactics/ setups you've had success with?

If you DSmash your opponent and it looks like they're going to be forced to tech on a platform, you can follow up the first DSmash by wavelanding onto the platform and doing another DSmash to cover all of their teching options. In general, running forward and wavedashing backwards is good for baiting and punishing approaches.

 

[RaynEX]

I'm wondering, how do people utilize wavedashing/landing with charizard? Are there any little tactics/ setups you've had success with?

Post uthrow (low/mid %s) while Charizard is floating in the air, activate Fly (down+B) and dip down towards your opponent, thereby increasing descent speed. When you approach the ground hit B to cancel your fly and you can waveland backwards to bait shieldgrabs / buttons. You can punish with fsmash, tipped dtilt, or Heat Wave (f+B). Very situational, very swag.

 

[OPTKeyo]

I think I saw a post like this in the video thread, but it would be cool if Charizard got a real projectile in place of his Flamethrower, like a fireball! I don't mean to sound like I'm complaining or anything btw, just thought it would be pretty awesome haha.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yes, please give charizard needles! (or atleast a slow as fireball that can also be sent at a downward angle... like all those SF fireballs!)

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I'd support a dual projectile option where if you hold down b, it's still flamethrower, but if you tap b it's a fireball.

 

[RvlvRBobcat]

could someone critique this vid for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXHTzDHBjYA

 

[OPTKeyo]

I'd support a dual projectile option where if you hold down b, it's still flamethrower, but if you tap b it's a fireball.

Dang, that would be so sick haha. Charizard needs one of those for sure!

 

[GunBlaze]

could someone critique this vid for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXHTzDHBjYA

Dat Squirtle's pressure

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Shouldn't you post that in video discussion?
Haven't watched the charizard match yet, sorry, can't critique!
I'll try to give some feedback later though. That squirtle looks really nice :D

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd rather flamethrower just get improved on its own or remain the same honestly. It's a great tool if you can just choose to be patient for a few seconds.

Zelda is a hilariously easy matchup from my experience, but that's limited so I can't say much other than tall slow human with no disjionts vs frame 4 disjointed flamewheel.

The only direct benefit I can see glair having over fair is specific followups at higher percents against certain characters with far DI against U-smash or whatever that glair would reach further.

Plus out of glide it's obviously the only super quick mixup option to choose outside of fastfalling out of it.

And now I go back to monitoring the nair thread.

 

[metroid1117]

could someone critique this vid for me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXHTzDHBjYA

Next time you want to get a video critiqued, you might get a better response you post it in the video thread instead of general discussion (although admittedly, I've been doing a terrible job of updating it).

Anyway, it looked as though your biggest problem was that you weren't exploiting Charizard's speed and range - not only does Charizard have a faster run/dash than Squirtle, he also out-ranges him pretty hard with jab. Instead of respecting Squirtle's Water Gun and Bubble, try dashing up to him and either canceling the dash with a jab or, if you see him preparing to shoot, shield and punish him during his cool-down; projectiles are only safe if you give the opponent the space to spam them. If you do get Bubble'd, however, try learning the timing for teching it and mix rolling in addition to teching in place; most of the time, it seemed like you were doing a stationary get-up or missed the tech, so it wasn't hard for him to capitalize. You had some nice DSmashes, but you never profited with anything more than an UAir; to combo out of DSmash better, try Fly -> UAir/NAir in order to rise up with them while jugging and then finishing with FAir or up+B, depending on where they were sent. Lastly, you should use more BThrow instead of restricting yourself to DThrow; although the follow-ups do depend on your opponent's DI, you can either tech chase or DTilt if they DI it properly.

 

[JOE!]

I'd prefer if Flamethrower were either buffed so it wasn't simply a worse version of Bowser's Firebreath, or replaced with an akuma-styled fireball that either always shoots straight or at an angle mid-air. @Kink

 

[GunBlaze]

I'd prefer if Flamethrower were either buffed so it wasn't simply a worse version of Bowser's Firebreath, or replaced with an akuma-styled fireball that either always shoots straight or at an angle mid-air. @Kink

I'd test the fireball were it to become available. It looks a a nice concept, but I'd be worried if it were ued to camp.

 

[JOE!]

well, an easy fix would be to make it so only 1 can be on screen at a time if it promotes camping, meaning he'd have to work with it to approach or whatever as the enemy deals with the fireball.

 

[NightShadow6]

Charizard wouldn't gain much from camping anyway, it would be a waste of his awesome speed.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

They're not just gonna give Charizard a fireball cuz it'd be useful. Charizard's neutral B is Flamethrower. That's a move he has in his game. What level does Charizard learn fireball at again? Oh that's right, he doesn't have that move, cuz it doesn't even exist.

I do think Flamethrower needs some kind of tweak to make it more worthwhile. Perhaps making it something like IC's blizzard, only with fire? instead of trying to catch people inside it to wrack damage, the way Bowser does, make it into something more useful for spacing people OUT. IC's blizzard can be kind of situational, but there's no denying the utility of it.

Basically, having it be a weaker, quicker, probably smaller, sustainable version of his sideb might work.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

well, just remove "flame thrower" and give him "flame blast"
there you go, fireball! Straight from pokemon!
I'd love to see him have a projectile (of any sort) i think it would give him quite the boost.
And as it is Flamethrower is just a gimmick. you might catch some noob or someone unfamiliar with any sort of flame or ice thrower for 80% or something, but appart from that its pretty much useless (it does not fulfill any function for charizard!)

Buffing it might be okay, but i don't think these kinds of attack do much for the smash-gameplay.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

flame blast isn't a fireball either. Pretty much every fire move in pokemon is some kind of flamethrower, or flamewave type deal. They're all fire breath, basically. None of them involve shooting fire in ball form.

 

[JOE!]

Fire Blast is a projectile

As is Flame Burst

Blast Burn

Ember is like Shiek's Needles

etc

 

[Kink-Link5]

well, just remove "flame thrower" and give him "flame blast"
there you go, fireball! Straight from pokemon!
I'd love to see him have a projectile (of any sort) i think it would give him quite the boost.
And as it is Flamethrower is just a gimmick. you might catch some noob or someone unfamiliar with any sort of flame or ice thrower for 80% or something, but appart from that its pretty much useless (it does not fulfill any function for charizard!)

Buffing it might be okay, but i don't think these kinds of attack do much for the smash-gameplay.

I'm telling you, land canceled flamethrower is the way of the future. Like it cuts the ending lag if you release the move as he lands. Like a reverse Flame Cancel.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

like no lag as with needle/lasers? that would be decent then, didn't know that. but also more gimicky than meta-game changing :D

 

[Kink-Link5]

I don't think Charizard needs a metagame changing tool as he stands right now. Giving him a decent air to ground option would be enough to change the dynamic of the character.

 

[JOE!]

What purpose does Flamethrower serve to him as is? I rarely use it and when I do, it's usually just off the edge to get free damage.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

a bad/slow projectile wouldn't be meta game changing kink. He'd be able to use his projectile to be able to pressure an opponent, which might be something new to charizard, but overall he'd stay the same. But it'd open a couple of new possibilities.

any way, i'm not saying he really needs it, i'd love to see it

 

[Kink-Link5]

What purpose does Flamethrower serve to him as is? I rarely use it and when I do, it's usually just off the edge to get free damage.

Hey, free damage is free damage. Not every move needs to set up for a Firespin or bair.

 

[Tuvillo]

I agree, the flamethrower is good at what it does, and does not need to be changed, per se.

Not every move needs to be amazing, and it's not a "Never-use" move, meaning it IS an extra option if you need it.

 

[Emg3]

I feel like they slowed down charizard's jab significantly from 2.0. Anyone else feel this way? It might just be me.

 

[metroid1117]

I feel like they slowed down charizard's jab significantly from 2.0. Anyone else feel this way? It might just be me.

We have not; Charizard's Demo 2.5 jab actually has one more active frame than his Demo 2.1 jab, but the start-up time has not been changed.

 

[Kuraudo]

I don't mind the change in his down throw. I get good tech chases off from it. As for Flamethrower? You don't truly know just how good it is until you use it on spacies. Do it right, and they're as good as gone and setting them up for losing a stock without you having to leave the stage until they're in recovery animation. To me it also covers my descent at times if I decide to pull it out when coming down from the sky. Rather then throw out a NAir when I'm in the air to try and recover, when the opponent can just shield and punish me? I can control myself and bust out flamethrower to keep them out. And if they shield or jump over after the fact I've whipped it out, I've already recovered and am ready to defend myself or reset the situation.

imo, Charizard's Flamethrower is best used in three situations. Surprise (and sometimes massive) damage, gimp set-ups (especially on fast fallers), covering your descent (eats their shields without you throwing out a punishable aerial).

[EDIT]

Long story short? Flamethrower = perfect imo.



...though as I write this, the idea hits me that it'd be an amazing buff if Charizard's Flamethrower actually had PUSHBACK along with dealing fire damage. Think like Mario F.L.U.D.D or Squirtle's Water Gun.

 

[Emg3]

I think it'd be cool to use flamethrower while Charizard is gliding. I think it would help on his recovery.

 

[Kuraudo]

I think it'd be cool to use flamethrower while Charizard is gliding. I think it would help on his recovery.

Might be overkill. I much rather like the glide attack we get. Especially for a ledge attack option.

 

[JOE!]

"good vs spacies" is kind of a meh argument when all of the design nowadays is "omgweneedtoraepspacies111!!!!!" (paraphrased). I never have issues ruining a furry's day with things like Usmash, utilt, Nair, any of his 85 juggle options. Flamethrower isn't super vital for it.

Now, if it had pushback to it to make it a "proper" spacing option, that'd be legit.

 

[Kuraudo]

"good vs spacies" is kind of a meh argument when all of the design nowadays is "omgweneedtoraepspacies111!!!!!" (paraphrased). I never have issues ruining a furry's day with things like Usmash, utilt, Nair, any of his 85 juggle options. Flamethrower isn't super vital for it.

Now, if it had pushback to it to make it a "proper" spacing option, that'd be legit.

Oh yeah, beating a Spacy with Charizard's other options is fine and dandy. I'm mainly talking about using Flamethrower to strike them when they're recoverying from the middle or low. Every time a Fox, Wolf or Falco have tried to recover and I used flamethrower, most of the time it dropped them into a position where they're forced to use Up + B

Leaving me an opportunity to do one of a few things to ensure the stock. Edgehog, DSmash spike, BAir stage spike, DAir spike, NAir gimping, etc.

 

[JOE!]

... there a reason to Fsmash over Fire Blast?