Charicific Valley • The Project: M Charizard General Discussion Thread

[NightShadow6]

Now I can't be the recovering punch bag.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

So the 2.5b "nerf" hit the charizard boards so hard that all discussion ended? quite sad...
anyone wanna play sometime and exchange thoughts/tipps/tricks?

fun fact: if you jump from the ledge you can regrab the edge after every one of charizards aerials, but you can also waveland on/off the platform after every aerial except nair.

so, to get something going on here, i have a question...
if you get a grab on charizard near the ledge and you are facing away from the ledge. does anyone use backthrow? If so, please tell me how to follow up correctly...

 

[metroid1117]

so, to get something going on here, i have a question...
if you get a grab on charizard near the ledge and you are facing away from the ledge. does anyone use backthrow? If so, please tell me how to follow up correctly...

Are you assuming that the opponent falls off the stage? Against fastfallers, BThrow -> tipped DTilt can sometimes connect. If you're too close to them to get a tipped DTilt, then you can back away and DTilt as they try to get back.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

yeah, i experimented a little bit with that after i posted the question... seems either you wait for them to react and punish, or if you just know they'll try to rejump sweetspot you can walkoff nair(weak) them and then follow up with a fair or dair for thw gimp...
thanks for the answer
my old sheik-habits got in the way of getting anything usefull from the bthrow so far it seems...

 

[MaxThunder]

i'm working on a vid for my recovery thingy... will be fun=)...

i have no idea how to use backthrow... other than just for getting people off stage...

 

[NightShadow6]

Depending on the character Bthrow can set up for Fair or heatwave. On fastfallers it basically forces a tech chase. I find it my go to throw since dthrow has that extra bit of ending lag on it. (Granted I do use dthrow, just not as much)

 

[MaxThunder]

fun fact: if you jump from the ledge you can regrab the edge after every one of charizards aerials, but you can also waveland on/off the platform after every aerial except nair.

you can do waveland after nair too if you jump first=)...

as in nair->jump->waveland...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

i tried to get a jump in for a while but couldn't get it to work, so if it works it's really hard to pull of

 

[MaxThunder]

i tried to get a jump in for a while but couldn't get it to work, so if it works it's really hard to pull of

Really?.. I can do I co consistently... just jump right when the move ends...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

are you jumping onto the stage while doing the aerial, or are you staying at the ledge?

 

[MaxThunder]

ah yeah i'm staying at the ledge...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

haha, problem solved
i was talking about jumping onto the stage.

 

[MaxThunder]

wait... you can jump onto the stage and then regrab the ledge?..

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Why does noone understand me ;_;
/emo

i said "but you can also"
you can either regrab the ledge or waveland onto the stage
so you can follow up on a fair/uair w/e hit with a waveland onto the stage, and then combo from there.

 

[MaxThunder]

ah i get it now... would have been more understandable if you had the jump onto the stage part in the post<.<...

if you jump onto the stage with the attack, then you don't have the option to regrab the ledge... just the waveland one...

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

well, you can obviously stay at the ledge and see if you hit, and react with a waveland onto the stage if you do connect.Admittedly, You need to be good at that then to not SD
but its rather gimmicky propably not worth putting alot of effort into unless it comes naturally

 

[MaxThunder]

wow i'm good at something techy o.O...

 

[metroid1117]

Well, to my knowledge, a Charizard has won a 2.5 tournament for the first time. It also marks my first tournament win since TBH2. I'm not sure when Kirk will finish uploading the videos from the stream, but I'll try uploading the pools matches sometime soon.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

just got back from a melee/PM tournament.
I guess I undererstimated charizard... If ppl aren't used to his range, you can **** them up completely... very fun!
I lost to Ice (German melee player, unbeateable at my level) and a Zelda, because i had trouble getting through his SideBs.
All in all i'm happy with my performance... didn't get anything recorded though

I rally have to find a way with spam, its always been my problem... melee, brawl and now P:M aswell...

 

[metroid1117]

just got back from a melee/PM tournament.
I guess I undererstimated charizard... If ppl aren't used to his range, you can **** them up completely... very fun!
I lost to Ice (German melee player, unbeateable at my level) and a Zelda, because i had trouble getting through his SideBs.
All in all i'm happy with my performance... didn't get anything recorded though

I rally have to find a way with spam, its always been my problem... melee, brawl and now P:M aswell...

Wow, Ice is playing PM? Who did he use?

Also, I'm not sure what to think about Zelda. I only have minimal match-up experience against her, so I wouldn't be able to give you any advice.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Well, he's focused on melee, but since almost every Melee tournament in Germany includes P:M by now, he participates.
Used Captain Falcon only i think (his captain Falcon is really beast though!)

I got fourth overall
1: Ice
2: ProsmasherTim :zeldabrawl:
3: ZetTroxX
4: Yomi harizardbrawl:

(melee icon means used their melee character)
Zettroxx is a beast melee player, who's pretty much overtaken me, so its reasonable to land behind him. I really need to step up my practice game before Beast 3, i'd like to do good in P:M as well as melee...

 

[Ace55]

Hmm, Prosmashertim plays Zelda. It makes sense, he would always stay Zelda after using her for recovery way longer than your average Sheik.

Ice told me he uses Zelda in PM, but that was pretty long ago.

Nice stuff Yomi! And I'm jealous of you. Outside of Jeffzor, Ryuker, Faab, Mind Trick and kind of Ser. I have to almost force people to play PM. Saturday at a small tourney I offered a 10 euro first prize for my PM side tourney (the competition wasn't that great I was pretty confident I'd win). Don't think I used any Zard though.

 

[G13_Flux]

its good to see melee players starting to play PM. not that none of them have b4, but i still know a lot of melee players who dont want to play PM, and if they do, they always refuse to use thei regular characters for some reason.

quick question though, does anybody know frame data for charizards up b or down b? i know both of them have some sort of invincibility at the beginning, but ive been trying to gauge their overall usages OOS (up b), and to stay safe on shield (down b). especially in down bs case, if the invincibility/intangibility or whatever it is lasts long enough to safely get charizard out of the way of the opponent, he can effectively attack on shield, and then down b to avoid an OOS attack. i havent played enough people lately that are consistent enough to recognize when i do it and try to punish me, so its hard to guage its effectiveness

 

[Oro?!]

In regards to no one using their melee characters in PM, that is 100% true except for Kels in Illinois... For a lot of people it's because of how balanced everything is so you would have to relearn a lot of matchups anyways, so it's a good opportunity to explore. Even players like Scythe, who used Mario extensively in Melee and who is now massively buffed, he defers to using Wolf because he simply wanted to play something different. I hope Metroid can expand on this since he has always been known to be Ike Ike Ike, no matter if it's brawl or any mod. He plays Marth in melee too so it might just be a fire emblem/sword thing, but I won't speak for him. : P

GGs at the tournament last saturday Metroid. I'm coming back for you I have some new tech after playing 3 sets in tournament. ^_^

 

[metroid1117]

In regards to no one using their melee characters in PM, that is 100% true except for Kels in Illinois... For a lot of people it's because of how balanced everything is so you would have to relearn a lot of matchups anyways, so it's a good opportunity to explore. Even players like Scythe, who used Mario extensively in Melee and who is now massively buffed, he defers to using Wolf because he simply wanted to play something different. I hope Metroid can expand on this since he has always been known to be Ike Ike Ike, no matter if it's brawl or any mod. He plays Marth in melee too so it might just be a fire emblem/sword thing, but I won't speak for him. : P

GGs at the tournament last saturday Metroid. I'm coming back for you I have some new tech after playing 3 sets in tournament. ^_^

MattDotZeb still plays Falco, but other than that I think almost all of the IL players have dabbled in new mains.

As for not playing Ike as of late, I think I'm just going through a phase right now. I was pretty obsessed with Ike when Demo 2.0 came out, but after messing with Charizard, I started playing him more and more until I started maining him after TBH2. (For the record, it's not because of the changes he got to Demo 2.5.) But yeah, Ike is still super fun, I'm trying to get more of his tricks down but I have to play smarter than in 2.1 because his hitlag on shield has been, quite understandably, changed.

And yeah, good games to you too, Oro! It was fun playing your ZSS, I can't wait to play you at SCYN5. In the meantime, I'll try to come up with ways to get around that side+B .

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Trying out new mains as a melee player is only natural...
everyone had someone he looked forward to in brawl, and now we can play them on melee mechanics :D
also, since the game is knew, knowing matchups can be a huge advantage/disadvantage. so i'd wager that playing "old" characters might even be a disadvantage if your opponent knows how to play his character

 

[G13_Flux]

thats very true, a lot of characters have yet to find their real place in terms of the metagame, so predicting their movements can sometimes be hard, especially when they already have knowledge on tried and true melee characters.

Anyways, what do you think of charizards glide? gide attack is awesome, hands down, but has anyone made good use of it in terms of mobility and navigating around the stage?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I only ever use it to recover from far off the stage. There's little mobility I can see it having on stage that Charizard's 3 jumps couldn't do, unless it's just used in a mindgame.

 

[metroid1117]

thats very true, a lot of characters have yet to find their real place in terms of the metagame, so predicting their movements can sometimes be hard, especially when they already have knowledge on tried and true melee characters.

Anyways, what do you think of charizards glide? gide attack is awesome, hands down, but has anyone made good use of it in terms of mobility and navigating around the stage?

Glide is a reaaaaaaaaaaly good recovery tool if you just DI up and recover from up high. I still have to apply it in combos, but you can FAir -> Glair or Fly -> UAir -> Glair depending on DI.

 

[yoshiiscool]

I'll try using some glair in my combos during this weekends smashfest, sounds pretty awesome, but I'm not sure how it'll go. It might be a great tech punish, now that I think about it, especially on platforms, as it's fast, super active, and has a massive hitbox... I'll see what I can come up with.

I've thought of using glide for edgeguarding, because it's the best way to get off the stage, and you can turn around easily during it without having to dash for a rar, or waste a jump/lose momentum. It also doubles as a mindgame as an edgeguard, as you can just cancel early into edgehog if they commit to avoiding whatever you'll do out of glide off the edge. May also be relatively fast as an edgehog in general, as his wavedash isn't fantastic, and his dash is too long to rar if closer to the ledge.

Besides that, I've only really used it as ****ing around taunting people after kills with B-reverse glide cancel>land repeat, or ledge cancel gliding into the ground (looks ****ing hilarious), but maybe b-reverse glide could be used as sort of a dash dance continuation type thing, ie over extend your dash, short hop b-reverse glide as a bait, since the momentum switch is instant, and pretty unexpected. I'll have to check out how much lag the glide cancel has to see how viable tipper reverse n-airs after b-reverse glide set ups would be, sounds tasty though.

This is just some food for thought for right now, in case anyone else wants to theorycraft potential uses for glide with me. I'm not used to brawl tecniques at all either after playing only melee for 7~ years, so I need to start implementing them in, hence a little focus on the rar and b-reverse aspects. So, with that in respect, thoughts, comments?

Oh, also flamethrower sucks, and is pretty much unusable, IMO.

 

[metroid1117]

The thing about glair versus FAir is that glair has multiple hits with only the final hit being strong (meaning that the opponent just might be able to SDI'd out of the strong hit) whereas FAir is just one hit that's either weak or strong, depending on how it's spaced; this means that profits from using a FAir is greater compared with a glair, since you have direct control over where you send your opponent after the attack (either for a combo or kill) instead of letting them potentially DI out of a killing hit. Glair has better range from a combo stand point since Charizard lunges forward pretty far and drifts a little while gliding, but both do about the same amount of damage (glair does 17% and sweetspotted FAir does around the same %). Glair has a more horizontal KB angle than sweetspotted FAir (which seems to send at 45 degrees), so if you want to kill an opponent off the side instead of the top, glair might be the better option.

However, that's just on paper - I'm sure glair has its uses, but I haven't fully explored them yet.

 

[G13_Flux]

if ur not predictable with it (they will start OOS punishing u otherwise) glair is great from the edge if someones really staying tight on u. platform tech chasing is the other use iv had for it, and even ground tech chasing can be good too, although it usually only covers a couple options, as in a get up attack or roll backwards will stop it. its one of those things that i think has great usage, but only if u use is sparingly and not predictably. ill have to see if i can get my friend to help me test out the SDIability of it. ive never seen anyone do it, but with the right amount of prediction maybe it can be done.

 

[stingers]

late to the party here, but zelda is a pretty hopeless mu for zard, id recommend picking up another character.

 

[MaxThunder]

me has marth... will be fine=)...

 

[metroid1117]

late to the party here, but zelda is a pretty hopeless mu for zard, id recommend picking up another character.

Just curious Stingers, what Zelda experience do you have?

 

[stingers]

wifi zhime
and lucas (a nc zelda player)

 

[RaynEX]

Charizard's jab is the business. If you're punishing a missed tech at low/mid percents: run after them, dash cancel, jab (launch). Usually gives you a free utilt -> aerial of choice, or Up+B for kills.

His dsmash is also amazing post down throw on platforms. If they tech or not, it covers pretty much every option. Oh, and to the guy that was saying flamethrower sucks (can't find the post). It has pretty good recovery and sets up his broke *** dtilt for the cheesiest edge-guards. This dragon is dope!

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

i don't know, i think Zelda isn't all that bad... don't get hit by fair/nair (which is hard as a big character) and don't let her set up forwardB walls.... should be doable

 

[NightShadow6]

The match up is a lot easier to get around when your offline. So much easier to get around the dins and bait out a lightning kick.

 

[metroid1117]

His dsmash is also amazing post down throw on platforms. If they tech or not, it covers pretty much every option.

I'm not sure if DSmash covers tech-in-place; DThrow's ending lag now matches Fox and Falco's ending lag and according to Rude's thread, DSmash only came out on frame 15 in Demo 2.1 (which I don't think was changed in Demo 2.5). Since teching should match Melee, opponents lose invincibility on a tech-in-place on frame 21 and are vulnerable until frame 26 (according to Magus); that means that for DSmash to hit, Charizard's DThrow has to have IASA frames within 7-12 frames of the opponent teching. Does anyone know the frame advantage after a Fox/Falco DThrow? It's not mentioned in any of their frame data threads, otherwise I'd look it up myself...