Kirbeh
Smash Champion
This thread is basically to discuss/gauge people's interest/opinions on having characters represented via costumes for other characters (and other costumes in general).
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CHARACTERS AS COSTUMES
We have precedent in Smash already through Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, Alph, etc. Plus, other instances such as Lucina who was originally intended to be a costume for Marth though ultimately got made into his clone/echo fighter. However, there is some opposition to this practice which is one of the key points I want to discuss. My question being, why the opposition?
I personally stand on the side in favor, and with the precedent already existing within Smash I find it a bit odd to be met with some staunch opposition on a few occasions where I or others have bought it up in other more general threads.
To clarify, I do think it's something to be used sparingly, in cases where the costumed character can reasonably fit over the main fighter's body and move set. Overall though, I feel like this can be a great way to add in a few more characters who otherwise might not have a chance of being included at all.
Example: Marth to Seliph could reasonably work, whereas Ike to Sigurd likely would not.
Some examples of this from other games for some points later on.
From Injustice 2: Mr. Freeze, Power Girl, Black Lightning, John Stewart (Green Lantern) and Jay Garrick (The Flash) as premium skins for Captain Cold, Super Girl, Raiden, Hal Jordan (Green Lantern), and Barry Allen (The Flash) respectively.
From Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: Quoggoth, Mei-Ling, and Yellow Iris (Battle Circuit) costumes for Shuma Gorath, Hsien Ko, and Felicia respectively.
This does fall to a case-by-case basis but some common arguments I've seen against costume characters.
"X" character doesn't deserve it!
Subjective, and honestly feels like a weak point in a game like Smash that goes out of its way to represent as many series as it does, {including some niche and obscure stuff}. And referring to the MvC3 example from above, I feel like this is perfect for this exact sort of thing. It's additional, optional content that might be obscure or less popular but it's the sort of thing that allows for more deep cuts and a few extra bones to be thrown at diehard fans.
Loads of people going into MvC3 may not have known who Shuma Gorath was, but he's a character that's still recognized and appreciated by more knowledgeable Marvel fans. Then they go and even include Quoggoth as a costume? No one knows who that is! But here he is anyway for the handful of people that do know. Likewise for things like Yellow Iris from Battle Circuit, whose fans are just happy that Capcom even remembers that game and here it is getting pseudo playable representation through Felicia.
The same can be applied to the characters included as premium skins in Injustice 2. Though these are instances of more obvious fan favorites, this was still a great way to include characters who may have otherwise been left out.
"X" and "Y" character's height isn't 1-to-1.
Smash already takes creative liberties with the heights and proportions of its cast. One such example being the aforementioned Jr. and Koopalings or Lucina who was originally planned as a costume. While she was given a slightly different height and made into an echo she could have just as easily been given a matching height and stayed a costume without issue. So long as characters are within a few centimeters of each other, heights can be adjusted just fine.
"X" character is similar but doesn't canonically use "Y" move.
Ness doesn't use PK Fire or Thunder. Zelda doesn't use the goddess themed spells. Fox, Captain Falcon, etc. have entirely made-up move sets, etc.
If a character is too dissimilar then I think this is a fair point to make, but in cases where only one or two moves would need to be borrowed and are still reasonable for them to have, I think taking this creative liberty is perfectly fine.
To add to this, I will also bring up an example I've suggested in the past: Fire Emblem's Lyn as a potential newcomer, with characters such as Karla and Say'ri as costumes.
Say'ri has a second sword but does not utilize it in actual gameplay (for existing fighters
Falcon also has an unused gun and
Sheik an unused blade) and neither Karla nor Say'ri canonically use a bow, but outside of regalia weapons for main lords, there are no "canonical" equipment sets for most party members. Say'ri is also still perfectly capable of wielding a bow when reclassing and overall, it's use fits fine with the samurai archetype all three characters fall under. Taking FE Heroes into account gives characters access to even more weapons not used in main titles, and Smash is already free to take such liberties to better craft move sets for its characters.
Outside of that, height and proportions, as well as (FE) class, weapon and fighting style are the same/similar enough to be reasonable fits.
Refer to the above deservedness point for my stance on whether these "lesser"/obscure/niche choices are worth including.
I'd rather have normal alternate costumes.
Fair. I think there can be room for both though. Or rather, in the case the devs actually put a greater focus on costumes that is. As things are now, just getting more costumes period is what I want as well, which brings us to the second half of this thread.
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ALTERNATE COSTUMES AND COLOR SWAPS
What costumes would you like to see make it into a future Smash game? Recolors too.
Anything obvious that's missing right now like Fire Mario? A fun reference like pink haired Link to represent his ALttP sprite? Some obscure deep cut?
Maybe you've got some ideas that don't come from any current source material? Since I've been using FE Heroes art for a lot of examples, maybe you want to see Smash Bros. go the gacha route (minus the actual gacha) and make all original themed costumes for multiple cast members. Event related stuff like Halloween costumes, summer themed costumes, etc.? (And if any of you are so inclined maybe some of us can draw some of these ideas for fun?)
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If you're against characters as costumes, please post your reasons why.
If you're in favor, please post some ideas for characters you think might fit. They can be for existing fighters or potential newcomers.
If you only want to take about more standard alts and colors, please post your ideas for those.
Perhaps it might be a little unfocused given the first half, but as it all relates back to costumes, I'm hoping consolidating both topics to one thread will be fine.
------------------------
CHARACTERS AS COSTUMES
We have precedent in Smash already through Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, Alph, etc. Plus, other instances such as Lucina who was originally intended to be a costume for Marth though ultimately got made into his clone/echo fighter. However, there is some opposition to this practice which is one of the key points I want to discuss. My question being, why the opposition?
I personally stand on the side in favor, and with the precedent already existing within Smash I find it a bit odd to be met with some staunch opposition on a few occasions where I or others have bought it up in other more general threads.
To clarify, I do think it's something to be used sparingly, in cases where the costumed character can reasonably fit over the main fighter's body and move set. Overall though, I feel like this can be a great way to add in a few more characters who otherwise might not have a chance of being included at all.
Example: Marth to Seliph could reasonably work, whereas Ike to Sigurd likely would not.
Some examples of this from other games for some points later on.
From Injustice 2: Mr. Freeze, Power Girl, Black Lightning, John Stewart (Green Lantern) and Jay Garrick (The Flash) as premium skins for Captain Cold, Super Girl, Raiden, Hal Jordan (Green Lantern), and Barry Allen (The Flash) respectively.
From Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: Quoggoth, Mei-Ling, and Yellow Iris (Battle Circuit) costumes for Shuma Gorath, Hsien Ko, and Felicia respectively.
This does fall to a case-by-case basis but some common arguments I've seen against costume characters.
"X" character doesn't deserve it!
Subjective, and honestly feels like a weak point in a game like Smash that goes out of its way to represent as many series as it does, {including some niche and obscure stuff}. And referring to the MvC3 example from above, I feel like this is perfect for this exact sort of thing. It's additional, optional content that might be obscure or less popular but it's the sort of thing that allows for more deep cuts and a few extra bones to be thrown at diehard fans.
Loads of people going into MvC3 may not have known who Shuma Gorath was, but he's a character that's still recognized and appreciated by more knowledgeable Marvel fans. Then they go and even include Quoggoth as a costume? No one knows who that is! But here he is anyway for the handful of people that do know. Likewise for things like Yellow Iris from Battle Circuit, whose fans are just happy that Capcom even remembers that game and here it is getting pseudo playable representation through Felicia.
The same can be applied to the characters included as premium skins in Injustice 2. Though these are instances of more obvious fan favorites, this was still a great way to include characters who may have otherwise been left out.
"X" and "Y" character's height isn't 1-to-1.
Smash already takes creative liberties with the heights and proportions of its cast. One such example being the aforementioned Jr. and Koopalings or Lucina who was originally planned as a costume. While she was given a slightly different height and made into an echo she could have just as easily been given a matching height and stayed a costume without issue. So long as characters are within a few centimeters of each other, heights can be adjusted just fine.
"X" character is similar but doesn't canonically use "Y" move.
Ness doesn't use PK Fire or Thunder. Zelda doesn't use the goddess themed spells. Fox, Captain Falcon, etc. have entirely made-up move sets, etc.
If a character is too dissimilar then I think this is a fair point to make, but in cases where only one or two moves would need to be borrowed and are still reasonable for them to have, I think taking this creative liberty is perfectly fine.
To add to this, I will also bring up an example I've suggested in the past: Fire Emblem's Lyn as a potential newcomer, with characters such as Karla and Say'ri as costumes.
Say'ri has a second sword but does not utilize it in actual gameplay (for existing fighters
Outside of that, height and proportions, as well as (FE) class, weapon and fighting style are the same/similar enough to be reasonable fits.
Refer to the above deservedness point for my stance on whether these "lesser"/obscure/niche choices are worth including.
I'd rather have normal alternate costumes.
Fair. I think there can be room for both though. Or rather, in the case the devs actually put a greater focus on costumes that is. As things are now, just getting more costumes period is what I want as well, which brings us to the second half of this thread.
-----------------------------------------
ALTERNATE COSTUMES AND COLOR SWAPS
What costumes would you like to see make it into a future Smash game? Recolors too.
Anything obvious that's missing right now like Fire Mario? A fun reference like pink haired Link to represent his ALttP sprite? Some obscure deep cut?
Maybe you've got some ideas that don't come from any current source material? Since I've been using FE Heroes art for a lot of examples, maybe you want to see Smash Bros. go the gacha route (minus the actual gacha) and make all original themed costumes for multiple cast members. Event related stuff like Halloween costumes, summer themed costumes, etc.? (And if any of you are so inclined maybe some of us can draw some of these ideas for fun?)
----------------------------------------
If you're against characters as costumes, please post your reasons why.
If you're in favor, please post some ideas for characters you think might fit. They can be for existing fighters or potential newcomers.
If you only want to take about more standard alts and colors, please post your ideas for those.
Perhaps it might be a little unfocused given the first half, but as it all relates back to costumes, I'm hoping consolidating both topics to one thread will be fine.