Characters as Costumes & Costumes in General

[Kirbeh]

This thread is basically to discuss/gauge people's interest/opinions on having characters represented via costumes for other characters (and other costumes in general).

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CHARACTERS AS COSTUMES

We have precedent in Smash already through Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, the 4 Dragon Quest heroes, Alph, etc. Plus, other instances such as Lucina who was originally intended to be a costume for Marth though ultimately got made into his clone/echo fighter. However, there is some opposition to this practice which is one of the key points I want to discuss. My question being, why the opposition?

I personally stand on the side in favor, and with the precedent already existing within Smash I find it a bit odd to be met with some staunch opposition on a few occasions where I or others have bought it up in other more general threads.

To clarify, I do think it's something to be used sparingly, in cases where the costumed character can reasonably fit over the main fighter's body and move set. Overall though, I feel like this can be a great way to add in a few more characters who otherwise might not have a chance of being included at all.

Example: Marth to Seliph could reasonably work, whereas Ike to Sigurd likely would not.

Some examples of this from other games for some points later on.

From Injustice 2: Mr. Freeze, Power Girl, Black Lightning, John Stewart (Green Lantern) and Jay Garrick (The Flash) as premium skins for Captain Cold, Super Girl, Raiden, Hal Jordan (Green Lantern), and Barry Allen (The Flash) respectively.

From Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3: Quoggoth, Mei-Ling, and Yellow Iris (Battle Circuit) costumes for Shuma Gorath, Hsien Ko, and Felicia respectively.

This does fall to a case-by-case basis but some common arguments I've seen against costume characters.

"X" character doesn't deserve it!

Subjective, and honestly feels like a weak point in a game like Smash that goes out of its way to represent as many series as it does, {including some niche and obscure stuff}. And referring to the MvC3 example from above, I feel like this is perfect for this exact sort of thing. It's additional, optional content that might be obscure or less popular but it's the sort of thing that allows for more deep cuts and a few extra bones to be thrown at diehard fans.

Loads of people going into MvC3 may not have known who Shuma Gorath was, but he's a character that's still recognized and appreciated by more knowledgeable Marvel fans. Then they go and even include Quoggoth as a costume? No one knows who that is! But here he is anyway for the handful of people that do know. Likewise for things like Yellow Iris from Battle Circuit, whose fans are just happy that Capcom even remembers that game and here it is getting pseudo playable representation through Felicia.

The same can be applied to the characters included as premium skins in Injustice 2. Though these are instances of more obvious fan favorites, this was still a great way to include characters who may have otherwise been left out.

"X" and "Y" character's height isn't 1-to-1.

Smash already takes creative liberties with the heights and proportions of its cast. One such example being the aforementioned Jr. and Koopalings or Lucina who was originally planned as a costume. While she was given a slightly different height and made into an echo she could have just as easily been given a matching height and stayed a costume without issue. So long as characters are within a few centimeters of each other, heights can be adjusted just fine.

"X" character is similar but doesn't canonically use "Y" move.

Ness doesn't use PK Fire or Thunder. Zelda doesn't use the goddess themed spells. Fox, Captain Falcon, etc. have entirely made-up move sets, etc.

If a character is too dissimilar then I think this is a fair point to make, but in cases where only one or two moves would need to be borrowed and are still reasonable for them to have, I think taking this creative liberty is perfectly fine.

To add to this, I will also bring up an example I've suggested in the past: Fire Emblem's Lyn as a potential newcomer, with characters such as Karla and Say'ri as costumes.

Say'ri has a second sword but does not utilize it in actual gameplay (for existing fighters Falcon also has an unused gun and Sheik an unused blade) and neither Karla nor Say'ri canonically use a bow, but outside of regalia weapons for main lords, there are no "canonical" equipment sets for most party members. Say'ri is also still perfectly capable of wielding a bow when reclassing and overall, it's use fits fine with the samurai archetype all three characters fall under. Taking FE Heroes into account gives characters access to even more weapons not used in main titles, and Smash is already free to take such liberties to better craft move sets for its characters.

Outside of that, height and proportions, as well as (FE) class, weapon and fighting style are the same/similar enough to be reasonable fits.

Refer to the above deservedness point for my stance on whether these "lesser"/obscure/niche choices are worth including.

I'd rather have normal alternate costumes.

Fair. I think there can be room for both though. Or rather, in the case the devs actually put a greater focus on costumes that is. As things are now, just getting more costumes period is what I want as well, which brings us to the second half of this thread.

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ALTERNATE COSTUMES AND COLOR SWAPS

What costumes would you like to see make it into a future Smash game? Recolors too.

Anything obvious that's missing right now like Fire Mario? A fun reference like pink haired Link to represent his ALttP sprite? Some obscure deep cut?

Maybe you've got some ideas that don't come from any current source material? Since I've been using FE Heroes art for a lot of examples, maybe you want to see Smash Bros. go the gacha route (minus the actual gacha) and make all original themed costumes for multiple cast members. Event related stuff like Halloween costumes, summer themed costumes, etc.? (And if any of you are so inclined maybe some of us can draw some of these ideas for fun?)

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If you're against characters as costumes, please post your reasons why.

If you're in favor, please post some ideas for characters you think might fit. They can be for existing fighters or potential newcomers.

If you only want to take about more standard alts and colors, please post your ideas for those.

Perhaps it might be a little unfocused given the first half, but as it all relates back to costumes, I'm hoping consolidating both topics to one thread will be fine.

 

[NintenRob]

I'm not against, but I'd prefer the character to become an echo where possible as they allow for more unique animations

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I would love more character-based costumes - Slap City does them very well, giving each alt character (sans Human Fred) nearly as many recolours as their base character and the occasional outfit swap. Excitebiker and Mach Rider over Captain Falcon strikes me as a very fun idea.

 

[fogbadge]

i've been wondering who black lightning was an alt of

 

[Quillion]

Admittedly, this is the exact method I want for representing the various incarnations of Ganondorf and Zelda. Ganondorf's alts can be in no strings attached. Zelda just needs to do the same thing Byleth does and have the more cheerful incarnations like SS and ALttP/ALBW have different idles and taunts from the calmer incarnations like OoT and TP.

I would also like to see alts to represent the different incarnations of Link, but considering how different BotW Link is from the previous Links, I'd rather have a full echo that has those alts rather than BotW Link.

I'm also hoping that Olimar's alts expand to Louie, President, Brittany, Charlie, and the Rookie.

Using this method to represent the Myrms from Fire Emblem isn't a bad idea, especially since they have the coolest animations in the series anyway. Maybe they should do it with the Axe Fighters too.

It would also make a lot of sense for the Belmonts should they come back.

It's an idea that has a lot of potential. I guess the one roadblock would be how much investment the modelers and animators have to do and having to hire a bunch of voice actors for the alts. So there's always the resource constraint at play.

 

[Oracle Link]

Okay let me just quickly repost my general opinion on that matter regarding zelda:

Adult Link:
Its incredibly obvious... EVERY Big/ Adult human link!
Why? hes literally just called link and its already a stretch if every adult link is present as the toon links still outnumber them but it gets silly calling mr. Im the newest flavour THE Link with only one game reffrenced so lets fix that:
OOT Link
OOT Shadow Link
Fierce Diety Link (being the replacement for young link)
TP Link
SS Link
BOTW Link
TOTK Link
and if we want to throw the Open world only fans a bone than:
Archaic set Link
and Tunic of the wild link!
Granted those are a lot of costumes but this is a BIG exepction (even for zelda standarts) He Is Called Link so he better be LINK!

Toon Link:
But obviously Link in small still is an important part of the franchise being the main version of him prior to the windwaker backlash!
But yeah as i stated Toon links been in a lot of games so one costume is fine But i think throwing the second most used link (and the only one that would make sense) in there is easy so lets do it:
Toon Link
"Toy", "Gameboy", "La, OOS, OOA Ingame Link Remade" No matter what you call him hes a perfect fit and was even more strechted in totk!
Other than that my only suggestion is making toon link even more of a jack of all links by giving him alts on these weapon combos:
"Beginning" first sword and shield from WW
"True Hero" Master Sword and Hylia shield (finally giving him the RIGHT Shield)
"Four Heroes" Four Sword and first shield WW
"True Hero2" Phantom Sword and shield from PH
"Hero of trains" Lokomo Sword and ST Shield

Do that and youve repped like almost every zelda game! (except the ones with only Beeg artwork and smol sprites)
Obviously you could cut a lot of these costumes the minimum would be:
OOT Link, TP Link, SS Link, BOTW Link, TOTK Link
Master Sword/ Mirror shield Toon Link and "Toy"/ Whatever Link

Zelda is less nedding of all costumes as shes not that relevant in all games she appeared in! and probably doesnt need 2 slots!
I think OOT, TP, SS, ALTTP and BOTWs Blue dress would be a dcent fit for her after all toon link is a giant of importance Toon Zelda... Isnt i still like her she just isnt fully necesary!

Ganondorf is an issue i think going with TOTK ganondorf is the logical choice but unlike the hero and princess hes to big for easy costumes! So i guess giving him His Gerudo, Demon king forms and topping this of with pig ganon? could be a decent choice as totk Ganon is closer to the pig size wise!
You could give him warlock armour tro rep OOT and TP but atleast for this list i wanna stray away from dress ups!

An Controversial opion is this:
Sheik Is unimportant to zelda as a whole and zelda is already in!
Also Sheiks moveset is really generic
Easy fix Make OOT Impa the main appearence and have Canon Sheik as in alt keep the general feel of all attacks but replace them with sheikah weapons!
HAnd to hand Nope downsized wepons from BOTW/ TOTk Smoke bombs Nope Dekz nuts!
Other than that the other impas are to diffrently shaped

Not Mike Drop!

 

[fogbadge]

Mike Drop!

maybe don't do that with your own point. that just makes you sound like an egotist

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm not against, but I'd prefer the character to become an echo where possible as they allow for more unique animations

Where possible I'd prefer more echoes too, but this thread is focused on the costume end of things. Going back to the Marth example, I see it as a more reasonable ask for Seliph to be made into a costume rather than becoming a second Marth echo. Not that I'd be opposed to multiple echoes per fighter, but you get the idea.

I would love more character-based costumes - Slap City does them very well, giving each alt character (sans Human Fred) nearly as many recolours as their base character and the occasional outfit swap. Excitebiker and Mach Rider over Captain Falcon strikes me as a very fun idea.

While I'd personally prefer for Mach Rider and the Excite Biker to get in as actual fighters, this is the general idea. I'd like for Smash Bros. to handle costumes like most other fighting games where we get multiple costume options and full color sets for each costume as well. The same of course would apply to characters included as costumes.

Plus, if Mach Rider/Excite Biker were to be made as costumes, I think it'd be more fitting as themed "cosplay" for Falcon rather than being outright labeled as said characters.

i've been wondering who black lightning was an alt of

Black Lighting as Raiden's alt is a bit of odd case as it's an instance of a DC character being placed over an MK character, but I think they handled it well enough.

Admittedly, this is the exact method I want for representing the various incarnations of Ganondorf and Zelda. Ganondorf's alts can be in no strings attached. Zelda just needs to do the same thing Byleth does and have the more cheerful incarnations like SS and ALttP/ALBW have different idles and taunts from the calmer incarnations like OoT and TP.

I would also like to see alts to represent the different incarnations of Link, but considering how different BotW Link is from the previous Links, I'd rather have a full echo that has those alts rather than BotW Link.

Honestly in the case of the Zelda cast, I'm much more in favor of the alternate move set idea you often bring up. Probably an odd proposal right after making this thread, but while you could definitely turn the other adult Links into costumes, I would argue that each incarnation of Link is a much more major/prolific character than some of the secondary/party member characters of other series.

Plus, going forward I think they should double down on making BoTW Link have more aspects from BotW/TotK. Then they can restore TP Link for example complete with Gale Boomerang, normal Bombs, etc.

Perhaps one of us can make a separate thread for character variations? I personally think instances like Doc, ZSS and the extra Links should be consolidated onto the slots of their "originals" simply for keeping the CSS more organized. Granted, I don't think every character on the roster needs to have variations, but I think there are cases where it could work, and again, so long as the number stays within reason (whatever that may be for that particular dev cycle.)

I'm also hoping that Olimar's alts expand to Louie, President, Brittany, Charlie, and the Rookie.

The height and proportion differences on Louie, Brittany, Charlie and the President make them ill-suited for costumes. The Rookie could be reasonably made into a costume though I think there's enough material from Pikmin to make the Rookie into a unique fighter and perhaps another character as a Falco/Roy style semi-clone of Olimar.

Dividing the characters based on height and proportions:

Olimar already has Alph as a costume, then from 4 you could use the Rookie (who again, I think works better as an Inkling/Villager style newcomer) and Bernard if you want to pull from the Rescue Corps characters.

Louie, as of Pikmin 4, has longer legs so Brittany from 3 and some combination of/or all of Sheperd, Dingo, Yonny and Russ from the Rescue Corps in 4 could reasonably be made into costumes for Louie (assuming he were to become playable.)

Going back to the Rookie, I suppose the main issue for them comes down to the customizability being more than just hair style and hair/skin color like the Inklings. Much like Robin in FE Awakening there are much more drastic/varied options for their appearance that would affect the model's height and proportions, so they're basically stuck using the default body/head type.

Using this method to represent the Myrms from Fire Emblem isn't a bad idea, especially since they have the coolest animations in the series anyway. Maybe they should do it with the Axe Fighters too.

This was more or less the idea. I would go the same route for Pegasus Knights using Caeda as the main fighter and including others from throughout the series like Cordelia, Sumia, Claire, etc. as alts.

For axe fighters specifically, Hector is far and away the most requested so I think he should serve as the main fighter. After that it's a matter of finding those that best match his height, proportions and conceptual fighting style. I'd personally go for Hawkeye (also from Blazing Blade) and Basilio from Awakening.

It would also make a lot of sense for the Belmonts should they come back.

I would like for Richter to remain separate and be given some more differences (like Hydro Storm), but I think you could bring in some of the other protags like Nathan Graves and the Morris's.

So, something like:

Simon - Trevor Belmont, John Morris
Richter - Nathan Graves, Johnathan Morris

It's an idea that has a lot of potential. I guess the one roadblock would be how much investment the modelers and animators have to do and having to hire a bunch of voice actors for the alts. So there's always the resource constraint at play.

Yeah, potential cost and being low priority would be the biggest hurdle when there are so many other things that demand the team's attention. It's likely why even regular costumes have been so few and far between.

Another hurdle that I think needs mentioning is approval. Just like how they have to get different devs to sign off on things like getting choked out by Snake, there could be plenty of cases where certain devs simply don't want certain characters to be used as/have alts. Some examples being Sega with Sonic or Namco with Pac-Man, both of which are already notorious for their poor color options in the eyes of most fans.

 

[fogbadge]

Black Lighting as Raiden's alt is a bit of odd case as it's an instance of a DC character being placed over an MK character, but I think they handled it well enough.

i'm just glad i know which character he was over. i've played injustice 2 but we never stuck with it long enough for all the dlc. but i did later look up who else the added in later on and some of them i just figure it out.

granted i could have looked it up but guessing was more fun

 

[Oracle Link]

maybe don't do that with your own point. that just makes you sound like an egotist

There i fixed it it now says Not mike drop!

 

[Quillion]

Honestly in the case of the Zelda cast, I'm much more in favor of the alternate move set idea you often bring up. Probably an odd proposal right after making this thread, but while you could definitely turn the other adult Links into costumes, I would argue that each incarnation of Link is a much more major/prolific character than some of the secondary/party member characters of other series.

Plus, going forward I think they should double down on making BoTW Link have more aspects from BotW/TotK. Then they can restore TP Link for example complete with Gale Boomerang, normal Bombs, etc.

Perhaps one of us can make a separate thread for character variations? I personally think instances like Doc, ZSS and the extra Links should be consolidated onto the slots of their "originals" simply for keeping the CSS more organized. Granted, I don't think every character on the roster needs to have variations, but I think there are cases where it could work, and again, so long as the number stays within reason (whatever that may be for that particular dev cycle.)

What I have in mind for that is more like a weapon option for normals if anything. Like again, Mario having his hammer, Link having a heavy sword, Kirby having any of his weapons from his series...

I think if the characters outright need separate outfits for different movesets, they should just be full separate characters as they are now like ZSS and Sheik.

The height and proportion differences on Louie, Brittany, Charlie and the President make them ill-suited for costumes. The Rookie could be reasonably made into a costume though I think there's enough material from Pikmin to make the Rookie into a unique fighter and perhaps another character as a Falco/Roy style semi-clone of Olimar.

They're not TOO far apart in terms of body shape, so I think the differences can be fudged. We've seen it done with the two WFTs despite male officially being significantly taller than female.

This was more or less the idea. I would go the same route for Pegasus Knights using Caeda as the main fighter and including others from throughout the series like Cordelia, Sumia, Claire, etc. as alts.

Oh yeah, that too. Peg Knights are a big iconic class in the series and often the Lord's love interest, so they should go for that. The main problem is that they're mounted, so I don't know if they're willing to separate them from their pegasus.

 

[Oracle Link]

I would say the Classic Link/ Champion Link Situation could be fixed by having two sets of specials one being the normal style and the other being the new style! as well as chaniging the appearence of wepons depening on the alt!

Classic:
Bow
Bombs/ Bombflowers
Boomerang (or gale boomerang if you want to keep the bnormal one for toon link)
Spin Attack

Modern:
Electro Arrows
Remote Bombs
Fuse
Ascend

Final smash stays the same but is ancient arrows for the champion version and light arrows for the classics!

Again its a lot of work but link probably deserves it more than the koopalings or avatars TBH!

Also for good mesuare a somewhat diffrent toon link:
Fire Arrows/ Bow
Bombs (Held over the Head with both arms)
Boomerang/ Magical Boomerang (can be freely controled like in seasons, minish cap and the ds games)
Spin attack or perhaps tornado rod (if you wanna be fancy and give toon link more 2d rep!)

Ah yeah the final smash would work like the triforce smash but involve the great spin attack and the final ganondorf attack to make it canon!

And BTW the Hammer could probably be smuggled in as a Smash Attack! (it would be an iron hammer for adult link and the classic mallet for toon link)

 

[Perkilator]

As far as characters as costumes for other characters, I think they should be done more sparingly. Hero is a great example of this, as he represents for different protags from four different Dragon Quest games.

In general, I think more costume-related efforts should go towards giving characters alts based on different outfits they’ve worn in the past. For example, Link is a character whose core design I think should’ve taken a few more elements from BotW, least of all his alts:

And another thing: I think the limit of every single character only having 8 alts max really hurts their alt potential, 8-Player Smash be damned. Wario was a character who had 12 alts in Brawl and Little Mac had 16 in Sm4sh while Wario regressed to 8 in Sm4sh, and then Little Mac regressed to 8 in Ultimate. Not saying every character should have 16 alts, just that having 8 max for every character is needlessly limiting.

 

[HyperSomari64]

As far as characters as costumes for other characters, I think they should be done more sparingly. Hero is a great example of this, as he represents for different protags from four different Dragon Quest games.

In general, I think more costume-related efforts should go towards giving characters alts based on different outfits they’ve worn in the past. For example, Link is a character whose core design I think should’ve taken a few more elements from BotW, least of all his alts:
View attachment 385003

And another thing: I think the limit of every single character only having 8 alts max really hurts their alt potential, 8-Player Smash be damned. Wario was a character who had 12 alts in Brawl and Little Mac had 16 in Sm4sh while Wario regressed to 8 in Sm4sh. Not saying every character should have 16 alts, just that having 8 max for every character is needlessly limiting.

>No underwear Link
-1/10
jk

Anyway, here's the most obvious pick for a costume:

 

[Perkilator]

In general, I think more costume-related efforts should go towards giving characters alts based on different outfits they’ve worn in the past. For example, Link is a character whose core design I think should’ve taken a few more elements from BotW, least of all his alts:
And another thing: I think the limit of every single character only having 8 alts max really hurts their alt potential, 8-Player Smash be damned. Wario was a character who had 12 alts in Brawl and Little Mac had 16 in Sm4sh while Wario regressed to 8 in Sm4sh, and then Little Mac regressed to 8 in Ultimate. Not saying every character should have 16 alts, just that having 8 max for every character is needlessly limiting.

Some characters that I think could really benefit from having 16 alt slots:

Spoiler: Wario

• Biker
  • Default
  • Player 1 (red)
  • Player 2 (blue)
  • Player 3 (yellow)
  • Player 4 (green)
  • Black/red
  • Cyan/white
  • Alternate artwork (black)
• Overalls
  • Default
  • Mario (red)
  • Waluigi (purple)
  • JP/EU Mario Bros. (pink/cyan)
  • Jinbe (green)
  • Foreman Spike (brown)
  • Sailor (white)
  • Virtual Boy (red/black)

Spoiler: Pokémon Trainer

Note that these two characters are just my personal preference, and the colors listed for each Trainer are nothing more than colors

• Elio
  • Default
  • Red
  • Ethan
  • Brendan (Emerald)
  • Lucas
  • Hilbert
  • Calem
  • USUM Elio (special costume)
• Selene
  • Default
  • Leaf
  • Kris
  • May (Ruby/Sapphire)
  • Dawn
  • Rosa
  • Serena
  • USUM Selene (special costume)

Spoiler: Toon Link

• Hero of the Winds
  • Default
  • Red Link
  • Blue Link
  • Purple Link
  • Classic Link (brown)
  • Link to the Past (teal w/pink hair)
  • Dark Link (black)
  • Outset Island outfit (special costume
• Royal Engineer
  • Default
  • Alfonzo (red)
  • Ferrus (cyan)
  • Zelda (pink)
  • Phantom (grey)
  • Byrne (blue)
  • Cole (green)
  • Malladus (turquoise)

Spoiler: Little Mac

• Regular
  • Minor Circuit (default)
  • NES Little Mac (white)
  • Major Circuit (blue)
  • World Circuit (red)
  • Title Defense (yellow)
  • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
  • SNES Little Mac (green)
  • Training jacket (special costume)
• Wireframe
  • Minor Circuit (default)
  • NES Little Mac (white)
  • Major Circuit (blue)
  • World Circuit (red)
  • Title Defense (yellow)
  • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
  • SNES Little Mac (green)
  • Training jacket (special costume)

Spoiler: Robin

• Male
  • Default
  • Mark (green)
  • Alvis (black)
  • Soren (dark green)
  • Black Mage (blue)
  • Red Mage (red)
  • Hooded male
  • Whiite Mage (hooded white)
• Female
  • Default
  • Serra (pink)
  • Anna (red)
  • Eyvel (yellow)
  • Tharja (black)
  • Nino (purple)
  • Hooded female
  • White Mage (hooded white)

Spoiler: Bowser Jr.

• Set 1
  • Bowser Jr.
  • Larry
  • Morton
  • Wendy
  • Iggy
  • Roy
  • Lemmy
  • Ludwig
• Set 2
  • Bowser Jr.’s Shadow Mario scarf (special costume)
  • SMB3 Larry (green)
  • SMW Morton (turquoise)
  • SMB3 Wendy (red)
  • SMB3 Iggy (blue)
  • SMW Roy (gray)
  • SMW Lemmy (yellow)
  • SMW Ludwig (pink)

Spoiler: Ryu

• SF2 Ryu
  • Default
  • Medium Punch (grey)
  • Light Punch (black)
  • Light Kick (orange)
  • Medium Kick (blue)
  • Heavy Kick (green)
  • Evil Ryu (brown)
  • SF1 Ryu (white)
• SFV’s Hot Ryu
  • Color 1 (default)
  • Color 2 (magenta)
  • Color 3 (turquoise)
  • Color 4 (orange)
  • Color 5 (brown)
  • Color 6 (green)
  • Color 7 (blue)
  • Color 8 (white)

Spoiler: Ken

• SF2 Ken
  • Default
  • Medium Punch (grey)
  • Heavy Punch (blue)
  • Light Punch (white)
  • Light Kick (green)
  • Start button / Sean Matsuda (yellow)
  • Medium Kick (cyan)
  • Violent Ken (white)
• SFV Ken
  • Color 1 (default)
  • Color 3 (cyan)
  • Color 7 (white)
  • Color 10 (purple)
  • Color 11 (green)
  • Color 12 (yellow)
  • Color EX1 / Dan Hibiki (pink)
  • Color EX3 (blue)

Spoiler: Corrin

• Male
  • Default
  • Takumi (blue)
  • Ryoma (white)
  • Xander (black)
  • Player units (blue)
  • Enemy Units (red)
  • Ally units (green)
  • Valla (pink)
• Female
  • Default
  • Hinoka (red)
  • Sakura (pink)
  • Camilla (purple)
  • Elise (black)
  • Azura (white)
  • Felicia (pink/black)
  • Nohr Noble (gray)

Spoiler: Joker

• Phantom Thief
  • Joker (default)
  • Skull (yellow)
  • Panther (red)
  • Fox (blue)
  • Queen (black)
  • Oracle (green)
  • Noir (pink)
  • Crow (white)
• Student
  • Shujin Uniform (default)
  • Summer Uniform (white)
  • Velvet Room Attendant (blue)
  • Boy with Earring (grey)
  • Tatsuya Suou (red)
  • Persona 3 Protagonist (male) (blue hair)
  • Persona 3 Protagonist (female) (brown hair)
  • Yu Narukami (grey hair)

Spoiler: Hero

• Luminary
  • Default
  • Erik (green)
  • Veronica (red)
  • Hendrik (blue)
• Erdrick
  • Default
  • Famicom (blue)
  • Sage (cyan)
  • Crono (turquoise)
• Solo
  • Default
  • Alena (yellow)
  • Kiryl (green)
  • Torneko (purple)
• Eight
  • Default
  • Yangus (brown)
  • Jessica (purple)
  • DQ VII Hero (green)

Spoiler: Terry

• KOF '94
  • Default
  • Player 2 (blue)
  • KOF 2002 brown
  • KOF 2002 green
  • Fatal Fury Special gray
  • Wild Ambition black
  • KOF 2000 C+D (yellow)
  • NEO GEO hat (lighter red)
• Garou: Mark of the Wolves
  • Default
  • Garou B (green)
  • Garou C (gray)
  • Garou D (red)
  • Rock Howard (red/white)
  • Rock Howard D (purple/white)
  • Kain R. Heinlein (white)
  • Dolvic Bourne (yellow)

Spoiler: Byleth

• Male
  • Professor (default)
  • Dimitri (blue)
  • Claude (yellow)
  • Jeralt (orange)
  • Jeritza (white)
  • Yuri (gray)
  • Black Eagle colors (red)
  • Male Enlightened One (special costume)
• Female
  • Professor (default)
  • Edelgard (red)
  • Sothis (purple)
  • Rhea (white)
  • Kronya (black)
  • Blue Lion colors (blue)
  • Golden Deer colors (yellow)
  • Female Enlightened One (special costume)

Spoiler: Min Min

1. Default
2. “Left” costume (yellow/black)
3. Spring Man (cyan)
4. Ribbon Girl (pink)
5. Ninjara (blue/green)
6. Master Mummy (grey)
7. Mechanica (yellow)
8. Twintelle (white)
9. Byte & Barq (blue)
10. Kid Cobra (purple)
11. Helix (green)
12. Lola Pop (orange)
13. Misango (blue/orange)
14. Springtorn (red)
15. Max Brass (brown/turquoise)
16. Dr. Coyle (black/green)

Spoiler: Kazuya

• Gi pants
  • Default
  • Dark Resurrection Player 1 (red)
  • Tekken Player 2 (blue)
  • Jin Kazama (black)
  • Jun Kazama (white)
  • Marshall Law (yellow)
  • Tank top Kazuya (special costume)
  • Hwoarang (orange)
• Suit
  • Default
  • Gold customization (yellow)
  • Tekken 2 purple suit (purple)
  • Dark Resurrection Player 2 (white)
  • President Shinra (red)
  • Demitri Maximoff (blue)
  • Heihachi’s Tekken 3 suit (special costume)
  • Tiger striped suit (yellow)

Spoiler: Sora

• KH1 Sora
  • Default
  • Riku (yellow)
  • Kairi (lavender)
  • Timeless River Sora (special costume)
• KH2 Sora
  • Default
  • Valor Form (red)
  • Wisdom Form (blue)
  • Roxas (white)
• DDD Sora
  • Default
  • Meow Wow & Komory Bat (cyan/orange)
  • Nightmare (black/magenta)
  • Neku Sakuraba (purple)
• KH3 Sora
  • Default
  • Guardian Form (yellow)
  • Blitz Form (green)
  • Ultimate Form (white)

 

[fogbadge]

Some characters that I think could really benefit from having 16 alt slots:

Spoiler: Wario

• Biker
  • Default
  • Player 1 (red)
  • Player 2 (blue)
  • Player 3 (yellow)
  • Player 4 (green)
  • Black/red
  • Cyan/white
  • Alternate artwork (black)
• Overalls
  • Default
  • Mario (red)
  • Waluigi (purple)
  • JP/EU Mario Bros. (pink/cyan)
  • Jinbe (green)
  • Foreman Spike (brown)
  • Sailor (white)
  • Virtual Boy (red/black)

Spoiler: Pokémon Trainer

Note that these two characters are just my personal preference, and the colors listed for each Trainer are nothing more than colors

• Elio
  • Default
  • Red
  • Ethan
  • Brendan (Emerald)
  • Lucas
  • Hilbert
  • Calem
  • USUM Elio (special costume)
• Selene
  • Default
  • Leaf
  • Kris
  • May (Ruby/Sapphire)
  • Dawn
  • Rosa
  • Serena
  • USUM Selene (special costume)

Spoiler: Toon Link

• Hero of the Winds
  • Default
  • Red Link
  • Blue Link
  • Purple Link
  • Classic Link (brown)
  • Link to the Past (teal w/pink hair)
  • Dark Link (black)
  • Outset Island outfit (special costume
• Royal Engineer
  • Default
  • Alfonzo (red)
  • Ferrus (cyan)
  • Zelda (pink)
  • Phantom (grey)
  • Byrne (blue)
  • Cole (green)
  • Malladus (turquoise)

Spoiler: Little Mac

• Regular
  • Minor Circuit (default)
  • NES Little Mac (white)
  • Major Circuit (blue)
  • World Circuit (red)
  • Title Defense (yellow)
  • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
  • SNES Little Mac (green)
  • Training jacket (special costume)
• Wireframe
  • Minor Circuit (default)
  • NES Little Mac (white)
  • Major Circuit (blue)
  • World Circuit (red)
  • Title Defense (yellow)
  • Head-to-Head Player 2 (orange)
  • SNES Little Mac (green)
  • Training jacket (special costume)

Spoiler: Robin

• Male
  • Default
  • Mark (green)
  • Alvis (black)
  • Soren (dark green)
  • Black Mage (blue)
  • Red Mage (red)
  • Hooded male
  • Whiite Mage (hooded white)
• Female
  • Default
  • Serra (pink)
  • Anna (red)
  • Eyvel (yellow)
  • Tharja (black)
  • Nino (purple)
  • Hooded female
  • White Mage (hooded white)

Spoiler: Bowser Jr.

• Set 1
  • Bowser Jr.
  • Larry
  • Morton
  • Wendy
  • Iggy
  • Roy
  • Lemmy
  • Ludwig
• Set 2
  • Bowser Jr.’s Shadow Mario scarf (special costume)
  • SMB3 Larry (green)
  • SMW Morton (turquoise)
  • SMB3 Wendy (red)
  • SMB3 Iggy (blue)
  • SMW Roy (gray)
  • SMW Lemmy (yellow)
  • SMW Ludwig (pink)

Spoiler: Ryu

• SF2 Ryu
  • Default
  • Medium Punch (grey)
  • Light Punch (black)
  • Light Kick (orange)
  • Medium Kick (blue)
  • Heavy Kick (green)
  • Evil Ryu (brown)
  • SF1 Ryu (white)
• SFV’s Hot Ryu
  • Color 1 (default)
  • Color 2 (magenta)
  • Color 3 (turquoise)
  • Color 4 (orange)
  • Color 5 (brown)
  • Color 6 (green)
  • Color 7 (blue)
  • Color 8 (white)

Spoiler: Ken

• SF2 Ken
  • Default
  • Medium Punch (grey)
  • Heavy Punch (blue)
  • Light Punch (white)
  • Light Kick (green)
  • Start button / Sean Matsuda (yellow)
  • Medium Kick (cyan)
  • Violent Ken (white)
• SFV Ken
  • Color 1 (default)
  • Color 3 (cyan)
  • Color 7 (white)
  • Color 10 (purple)
  • Color 11 (green)
  • Color 12 (yellow)
  • Color EX1 / Dan Hibiki (pink)
  • Color EX3 (blue)

Spoiler: Corrin

• Male
  • Default
  • Takumi (blue)
  • Ryoma (white)
  • Xander (black)
  • Player units (blue)
  • Enemy Units (red)
  • Ally units (green)
  • Valla (pink)
• Female
  • Default
  • Hinoka (red)
  • Sakura (pink)
  • Camilla (purple)
  • Elise (black)
  • Azura (white)
  • Felicia (pink/black)
  • Nohr Noble (gray)

Spoiler: Joker

• Phantom Thief
  • Joker (default)
  • Skull (yellow)
  • Panther (red)
  • Fox (blue)
  • Queen (black)
  • Oracle (green)
  • Noir (pink)
  • Crow (white)
• Student
  • Shujin Uniform (default)
  • Summer Uniform (white)
  • Velvet Room Attendant (blue)
  • Boy with Earring (grey)
  • Tatsuya Suou (red)
  • Persona 3 Protagonist (male) (blue hair)
  • Persona 3 Protagonist (female) (brown hair)
  • Yu Narukami (grey hair)

Spoiler: Hero

• Luminary
  • Default
  • Erik (green)
  • Veronica (red)
  • Hendrik (blue)
• Erdrick
  • Default
  • Famicom (blue)
  • Sage (cyan)
  • Crono (turquoise)
• Solo
  • Default
  • Alena (yellow)
  • Kiryl (green)
  • Torneko (purple)
• Eight
  • Default
  • Yangus (brown)
  • Jessica (purple)
  • DQ VII Hero (green)

Spoiler: Terry

• KOF '94
  • Default
  • Player 2 (blue)
  • KOF 2002 brown
  • KOF 2002 green
  • Fatal Fury Special gray
  • Wild Ambition black
  • KOF 2000 C+D (yellow)
  • NEO GEO hat (lighter red)
• Garou: Mark of the Wolves
  • Default
  • Garou B (green)
  • Garou C (gray)
  • Garou D (red)
  • Rock Howard (red/white)
  • Rock Howard D (purple/white)
  • Kain R. Heinlein (white)
  • Dolvic Bourne (yellow)

Spoiler: Byleth

• Male
  • Professor (default)
  • Dimitri (blue)
  • Claude (yellow)
  • Jeralt (orange)
  • Jeritza (white)
  • Yuri (gray)
  • Black Eagle colors (red)
  • Male Enlightened One (special costume)
• Female
  • Professor (default)
  • Edelgard (red)
  • Sothis (purple)
  • Rhea (white)
  • Kronya (black)
  • Blue Lion colors (blue)
  • Golden Deer colors (yellow)
  • Female Enlightened One (special costume)

Spoiler: Min Min

1. Default
2. “Left” costume (yellow/black)
3. Spring Man (cyan)
4. Ribbon Girl (pink)
5. Ninjara (blue/green)
6. Master Mummy (grey)
7. Mechanica (yellow)
8. Twintelle (white)
9. Byte & Barq (blue)
10. Kid Cobra (purple)
11. Helix (green)
12. Lola Pop (orange)
13. Misango (blue/orange)
14. Springtorn (red)
15. Max Brass (brown/turquoise)
16. Dr. Coyle (black/green)

Spoiler: Kazuya

• Gi pants
  • Default
  • Dark Resurrection Player 1 (red)
  • Tekken Player 2 (blue)
  • Jin Kazama (black)
  • Jun Kazama (white)
  • Marshall Law (yellow)
  • Tank top Kazuya (special costume)
  • Hwoarang (orange)
• Suit
  • Default
  • Gold customization (yellow)
  • Tekken 2 purple suit (purple)
  • Dark Resurrection Player 2 (white)
  • President Shinra (red)
  • Demitri Maximoff (blue)
  • Heihachi’s Tekken 3 suit (special costume)
  • Tiger striped suit (yellow)

Spoiler: Sora

• KH1 Sora
  • Default
  • Riku (yellow)
  • Kairi (lavender)
  • Timeless River Sora (special costume)
• KH2 Sora
  • Default
  • Valor Form (red)
  • Wisdom Form (blue)
  • Roxas (white)
• DDD Sora
  • Default
  • Meow Wow & Komory Bat (cyan/orange)
  • Nightmare (black/magenta)
  • Neku Sakuraba (purple)
• KH3 Sora
  • Default
  • Guardian Form (yellow)
  • Blitz Form (green)
  • Ultimate Form (white)

what? no toon link dressed as zelda?

 

[Quillion]

>No underwear Link
-1/10
jk

Anyway, here's the most obvious pick for a costume:

Why that and not his Roman-ish toga original design?

 

[fogbadge]

Why that and not his Roman-ish toga original design?

cause he’s a fan of TMS

 

[Gorgonzales]

I'm also hoping that Olimar's alts expand to Louie, President, Brittany, Charlie, and the Rookie.

Gonna stop you right there.

I hate this suggestion. Not your suggestion, but this specific suggestion. That all the Pikmin captains are interchangeable avatars for some "Pikmin conglomerate representative". I hate, hate, haaate it, and I'm going to outline why. Right here, right now.

First off, without even taking into account the aspects like the personalities of these characters, just... take a look at them. Then look me in the eye and tell me they can be suitably made into alts without wildly changing their proportions.

Most of them are not suitable for alts. Yes, the Koopalings have different body proportions and they're here, but there's a few things to consider for them.

1. The Koopalings have the Clown Car to mask their shrunken physiques, and when they don't have the kart to mask what's wrong with them, it immediately becomes apparent that something is off.

2. I firmly believe that the Koopalings as Jr. alts are an objectively flawed concept because they hold Jr. back. I really think that the Koopalings as alts really hinged on the novelty of having 8 characters in 1, especially since it coincided with the release of 8 player Smash. With that, Jr's moveset is less of a Bowser Jr. moveset and more of a Clown Car moveset, because it's really the one doing all of the work. Bowser Jr. doesn't use his paintbrush in his moveset except for his Final Smash, and the paintbrush is such a big part of his character that it's very obvious that it's missing in his base kit.

And its this second point that illustrates why I do not want these characters as Olimar alts; they won't allow for Olimar to be himself and embrace elements unique to him.

"The Pikmin leaders all function the same in gameplay." Yes, that's true. But, I really think Olimar should be on his own for a variety of factors despite this. Olimar is objectively one of the worst-represented characters in this franchise. He doesn't have his voice, he barely emotes, and his mannerisms do not line up with how he behaves in Pikmin games. His kit encourages the use of Pikmin as instantly-replenishable meat shields and does not care for their preservation. This could not be further from the truth of Olimar's character.

Olimar is an intelligent but well-rounded every-man in the Pikmin series. He’s got a family, works a humble delivery job, and writes extensively about his encounters on the Pikmin’s home planet in his frequent journal entries and video logs. He has emotions and shows them both physically and through text, whether it’s being grateful for the Koppaites rescuing him in the third game, or showing concern for the Pikmin themselves by trying to corral them out of dangerous situations. It’s easy to empathize with him, and he’s one of Nintendo’s best written protagonists. In the first game, if you accidentally kill a big chunk of your squad with poor management of bomb rocks, he’ll write about how the experience left him genuinely shaken, and if you manage to get a total Pikmin extinction, the guy will BERATE himself for his ineptitude as a leader!

Based on Olimar’s current appearance and animation work in Smash Bros, a clueless player couldn’t really be blamed for inferring that Olimar is nothing more than a fumbling doofus. Look at his idle animations and taunts, animations that are typically designed to better show off a character’s personality for when they’re not fighting. They make him look absent-minded or inexperienced. None of his actual personality is conveyed here, just sluggish, lethargic movements that don’t coalesce into a greater whole. Pikmin are so disposable in Smash and even swung around like bludgeoning tools for some attacks, that some people could get the idea that Olimar acts as an unfeeling, mute tyrant to his race of plant people that he presumably enslaved for his own gain.

I believe to help fix Olimar's character in Smash, you need to get rid of the mere thought of including characters that are not him as alts. I want Olimar to have better idle animations that suit his character; he could lean forward and scan the area with a hand over his head for one, while putting his hand on his communications device near his neck area and muttering something to himself for the other. He needs better victory animations that have him do things that HE has done!!

This comes with a proposal for a complete moveset overhaul, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Point is, Alph isn't Olimar. The Rookie isn't Olimar. Louie is the furthest possible character you could get from Olimar. Only Olimar is Olimar. When you try to force a character to be someone they're not, you get Daisy in Smash Ultimate; a character that's only themself in name, with almost all of their actions not conveying who they actually are. You get the Koopalings with awkward proportions, generic animations that don't suit their indivudal personalities, and a tacked-on Final Smash as a last-ditch attempt to get something uniquely Bowser Jr. in there to compensate for how decisively not-Jr. his kit is.

And then there's this guy.

I do not want Louie as an alt for Olimar because he has more than enough material to work with to be his own distinct and fully-fleshed out fighter. On top of having his own personality and mannerisms, he's legitimately the closest character the Pikmin series has to an actual antagonist. Yeah, he can be played the same as the other captains... but you know what he's also capable of?

Spoiler: Pikmin 2 & 4 Final Bosses

Louie has his own distinct personality and mannerisms; once could argue that Olimar's current mannerisms in Smash are more befitting of Louie. He's shown himself to be able to survive on the Pikmin planet for any amount of time on his own by living off the fat of the land and using his cooking skills to gain sustenance from the multitude of bizarre enemies that inhabit it. That, combined with his ability to control insects for his own gain, would make it especially painful to see him.... slinging around Pikmin on the battlefield in the same manner Olimar does.

....sorry for the rant, but I am very, very passionate about Pikmin's representation in Smash Bros. I want the best for this series and I'm desperate for a fix to Olimar. Having more captains as alternate costumes for him is unequivocally out of the question for me; if it was up to me, I'd remove Alph to give Olimar the personality, mannerisms, and traits that are uniquely his.

So instead of giving Olimar more alternate characters as costumes that will undoubtedly further dilute his already nonexistent personality in Smash (and, in fact, drag those other characters down with him), I'd like to advocate for giving him more costumes based on his appearances from the Pikmin series; namely, these rad as hell Leafling and Bad-Ending Olimars as costumes, courtesy of Nano on GameBanana. Now THESE are costumes I can get behind!

...can you tell I had an espresso this morning?

 

[Quillion]

"The Pikmin leaders all function the same in gameplay." Yes, that's true. But, I really think Olimar should be on his own for a variety of factors despite this. Olimar is objectively one of the worst-represented characters in this franchise. He doesn't have his voice, he barely emotes, and his mannerisms do not line up with how he behaves in Pikmin games.

Then just do this for Pikmin Captain:

Zelda just needs to do the same thing Byleth does and have the more cheerful incarnations like SS and ALttP/ALBW have different idles and taunts from the calmer incarnations like OoT and TP.

And side notes:

They're not suitable for alts. Yes, the Koopalings have different body proportions and they're here, but there's a few things to consider for them.

1. The Koopalings have the Clown Car to mask their shrunken physiques, and when they don't have the kart to mask what's wrong with them, it immediately becomes apparent that something is off.

Male WFT is shrunken to match female WFT without anything to mask it.

2. I firmly believe that the Koopalings as Jr. alts are an objectively flawed concept because they hold Jr. back. I really think that the Koopalings as alts really hinged on the novelty of having 8 characters in 1, especially since it coincided with the release of 8 player Smash. With that, Jr's moveset is less of a Bowser Jr. moveset and more of a Clown Car moveset, because it's really the one doing all of the work. Bowser Jr. doesn't use his paintbrush in his moveset except for his Final Smash, and the paintbrush is such a big part of his character that it's very obvious that it's missing in his base kit.

Bro. Look at how much Jr. became associated more with the Clown Car:

Spoiler: Space-saving spoiler

I agree he should have his Paintbrush, but it can very well coexist with the Clown Car as seen in the last video.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Some Captains work fine as alts as long as they're the same proportions. They play pretty much the same(it's the Pikmin who do not play the same). They can fix personality very easily without changing the hurtboxes. Though to be fair, none of them are given personality in Smash anyway, so that's not an issue in this context(not that they shouldn't be given, mind you). ...That, and he had no personality in Brawl either. Alph has nothing to do with it. Olimar was designed to be a generic guy from the start. Removing Alph will not help at all. It's not "holding anything prisoner". This is something that people don't realize because they don't pay attention to Brawl's design where Olimar is... the same as 4 and Ultimate. Alph's addition didn't make a lick of difference other than less costumes.

There's just a ton who are clearly different bodyshape who will not work as the concept. Alph works, sure. But everyone? No.

Besides that, the actual character is Pikmin & Captain in practice. So naturally the Captains were designed to play second fiddle gameplay-wise. They also aren't the real stars of the franchise like the Pikmin are, which is likely what led to this gameplay choice. The US and EU names are very misleading. It should actually be Pikmin & Olimar and Pikmin & Alph respectively. Regardless of the names, these are the actual characters as they're designed as. That's why it was easy to make alts(or suggestions based upon them) because the character is specifically designed under that ideal.

That said, Olimar and Alph having zero personality is still dumb and they should be given better expressions to begin with. You can work in some alts if they're the right bodyshape, but it's no big deal if it's just those two as alts either.

As for other costumes;

Toon Link is lacking the Conductor Outfit and his Outset Clothes. As he's based upon an art design, not a specific Link, not having either is weird. The latter more than the former, since it's specifically WW Link's clothing options. Somewhat understandable in Brawl with fewer color options for some characters. Not so justified in 4 or Ultimate, where both outfits make sense(plus, when Alfonso takes over, you already have a good reason to use said design).

I always felt Sonic should have semi references to other characters, like light coloring patterns of Red, Yellow, Purple, etc. His costumes... eh. Except the Dark and White ones. Those stand out somewhat.

 

[Quillion]

I always felt Sonic should have semi references to other characters, like light coloring patterns of Red, Yellow, Purple, etc. His costumes... eh. Except the Dark and White ones. Those stand out somewhat.

I feel like instead of the Sonics being hard to tell apart in mirrors, that would result in Sonic being hard to tell apart from most other Sonic characters when they become fighters.

Then again, they gave Castlevania and FF7 second characters before Sonic yet still gave the latter none despite exponentially heavier demand, so I don't know if that'll come to pass.

 

[Gorgonzales]

Male WFT is shrunken to match female WFT without anything to mask it.

It's not as much of an issue with realistically-proportioned characters, and these are two versions of the same character anyhow like Robin or Inkling.

Bro. Look at how much Jr. became associated more with the Clown Car:
I agree he should have his Paintbrush, but it can very well coexist with the Clown Car as seen in the last video.

Never said he shouldn't use the clown car, just that the Clown Car is doing a majority of the work in his current kit to compensate for the EIGHT characters it has to account for. I'd be fine with a portrayal like how he is in Bowser's Fury, with both the Clown Car and the Paintbrush at his side. I want more uniquely Jr. things out of him, and I want more balance between what he's doing and what the clown car is doing.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel like instead of the Sonics being hard to tell apart in mirrors, that would result in Sonic being hard to tell apart from most other Sonic characters when they become fighters.

Then again, they gave Castlevania and FF7 second characters before Sonic yet still gave the latter none despite exponentially heavier demand, so I don't know if that'll come to pass.

Not really? Minor references so it stands out isn't an issue. I'm not talking about him looking literally like them, just some color pieces here or there to change him up enough so it's easy to tell apart from each other.

The other ones would at best have an issue with standing out next to themselves, especially if they follow the same philosophy as Sonic.

It's best to remember that Castlevania is a major exception as is, since it was two protagonists to please both sides and play almost identically as a fusion of movesets. This isn't the case like Sephiroth, who is the first truly unique 3rd party secondary character. Who knows why he got it first. There's always theories about it being around releasing more materials and such. Maybe Sakurai couldn't get them to agree with certain Sonic characters. Or maybe he didn't think anyone else is needed, etc. This was around the time other Sonic characters were clearly being reduced to minor roles, so it's not like "we need a secondary one" was the game direction at the time. We mostly got that via spin-offs at best. Forces was the latest one to have someone other than Sonic playable in a core campaign, and it's not like the Avatar was... actually more than mostly the same gameplay. He's no Knuckles or Gamma, frankly. He's clearly meant to still focus on the usual racing gameplay, but with some change-ups.

That said, I still want one, but we'll never know what stopped Sonic from getting another character(if it was on the table, anyway).

(Also, see my earlier post for why Olimar and Alph being together doesn't really matter these days. That's not saying having a secondary Pikmin character is bad, but the unique Pikmin are what makes the moveset shine, not really the Captains. They're still nice, but not the main factor).

 

[Quillion]

It's not as much of an issue with realistically-proportioned characters, and these are two versions of the same character anyhow like Robin or Inkling.

But the body shape differences between the Pikmin captains are about as much as differences between gender variants of the same character.

Never said he shouldn't use the clown car, just that the Clown Car is doing a majority of the work in his current kit to compensate for the EIGHT characters it has to account for. I'd be fine with a portrayal like how he is in Bowser's Fury, with both the Clown Car and the Paintbrush at his side. I want more uniquely Jr. things out of him, and I want more balance between what he's doing and what the clown car is doing.

I can get behind that. Keep in mind that the Koopalings also use the paintbrush and the Shadow Mario transformation, if only briefly, so I wouldn't mind them getting paintbrushes too.

I think what they should do is replace all instances of Jr. holding a melee weapon with his paintbrush, and slightly rework some of the existing moves where he uses the paintbrush in conjunction with the clown car. Also, he should share the Inklings' paint status mechanic.

Not really? Minor references so it stands out isn't an issue. I'm not talking about him looking literally like them, just some color pieces here or there to change him up enough so it's easy to tell apart from each other.

The other ones would at best have an issue with standing out next to themselves, especially if they follow the same philosophy as Sonic.

What worries me about Sonic having the same colors as other characters is that a lot of the Sonic characters have the same body shape to begin with. The ones who don't tend to be secondary characters at most like Vector and Big. It would be a pain to tell the characters apart in the heat of gameplay, especially on the stages with darker lighting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What worries me about Sonic having the same colors as other characters is that a lot of the Sonic characters have the same body shape to begin with. The ones who don't tend to be secondary characters at most like Vector and Big. It would be a pain to tell the characters apart in the heat of gameplay, especially on the stages with darker lighting.

You didn't read what I said. I said color references. Something like full body colors would be awful and illogical. But minor changes is fine. I agree overdoing it is bad, but I'm not suggesting overdoing it.

Just enough to tell the Sonic forms apart, but nowhere near him basically looking like Knuckles/etc.

Also, they don't have the same bodyshape. They have similar ones(which is quite different in terms of clone creation). Only Sonic and Shadow really have the same bodyshape(Metal Sonic comes close, but is a tad different these days. That said, they could still make a plausible Metal from Sonic). Silver is also close like Metal Sonic is, but still off. Knuckles, Tails, and Amy overall are different. And this isn't counting really changed up ones like Cream, or those even further down the line like Big. Blaze would be more in the Tails category(similar bodyshapes, but still distinct). Remember, this isn't a sprite-based game where they're built off of the same gameplay. This is full character models who have physical differences.

Getting back to it, how to make color references work is an actual difficult thing. All he has are Shoes and Gloves. He doesn't even have Rings like Shadow(or extra parts to his Shoes either, or even a hair tuft on the chest that could be worked with). Sonic is a very plain design. It's actually kind of difficult without making him look too close to another character. The way they went is for the most part pretty good with what crappy options they have to work with. It's too bad he doesn't have a Bandana like with Boom Sonic, as that would be enough to really make changes easier to notice(bandages too, but yeah). I wouldn't mind if he had some references to other Sonic forms, though. That might work better. Like Boom Sonic I mentioned could be a good costume. He already has enough of one similar to Silver(who would never be playable, due to a lack of popularity), and a Dark costume similar to Dark Super Sonic from Sonic X(though I think one of the Smash entries lightened it up too much? I forget).

 

[superprincess]

I know people often laugh at the "Hero situation" phrase after the ARMS character speculation era, but I really think Marth could be a four-character package deal like Hero is.

Specifically, the quartet would be: Marth, Seliph, Leif, and Eirika. I feel like they've all got a similar "peace-loving noble who puts the protection of others above everything" and they all fight in a similar manner with a rapier-like sword.

I'm guessing some animations would have to be tweaked, but it's not like alts can't have that; Cloud's Advent Children suit, Male Inkling and Female Byleth all have a few different animations compared to their defaults.

That said, I'd be more open to the idea if it meant more than 8 alts per character. Marth is my main and I wouldn't want him to only have 1 recolor because different characters took the spots.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If the Pac-Man expanded canon wasn't tangled up in rights issues, Pac-Man would be near perfect for a Hero situation. Pac-Man, Ms. Pac-Man, Professor Pac-Man, Jr. Pac-Man. Any personality differences are simple enough to be covered by facial expressions. Fruits are a bit of an issue, especially for Jr, but I don't think it's too big a deal if Ms. and Jr. use the regular Pac-Man fruits.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Boom Sonic, Fully Charged Mega Man and Pac-Man World Pac-Man as skins

 

[Gorgonzales]

Would Octoling work as an alt, or would it be better that they end up as "dumping ground for moves the base character has no room for" the way Isabelle kind of is? On one hand, they're a full aesthetic option in the Splatoon series as of 2's DLC, but on the other hand, there are some stuff missing from Inkling that could still work.

Splatoon has enough weapons and playstyles that Octoling is an easy "unique character or semi clone" deal for me.

 

[FazDude]

Splatoon has enough weapons and playstyles that Octoling is an easy "unique character or semi clone" deal for me.

I second this - There's enough to work with in Splatoon that Octoling could easily be a semi-clone, if not a psuedo-clone. Using a different type of bomb for Down Special is no brainer, but there's a lot of gun types to fill in a Neutral Special and Squid Beakon setups could make for a unique recovery among the Smash cast (with the tradeoff being a lower Super Jump if a Beakon wasn't setup beforehand). This isn't even getting into whatever Side Order could give us!

 

[Kirbeh]

What I have in mind for that is more like a weapon option for normals if anything. Like again, Mario having his hammer, Link having a heavy sword, Kirby having any of his weapons from his series...

I think if the characters outright need separate outfits for different movesets, they should just be full separate characters as they are now like ZSS and Sheik.

I mean, that's pretty much what I want. Just like we have Doc, Sheik and ZSS, I think OoT, TP and SS Link should be their own characters, just not on the actual CSS. Just for the sake of not bloating the CSS and trying to keep things organized I think different versions of the same character should be selectable from the same slot.

Currently when you select a character and then press A again on their art it just cycles colors, I'd replace that with a small menu like other fighters where you can select a costume and color, but with the added option of selecting different versions of that character where applicable.

Same deal for scrolling with the other buttons. X/Y, L/R/, etc. are all used for the same thing on the CSS; just scrolling through costumes.

I'd change each to scroll through something different. X/Y for colors. L/R for costumes. ZL/ZR for character variations.

Oh yeah, that too. Peg Knights are a big iconic class in the series and often the Lord's love interest, so they should go for that. The main problem is that they're mounted, so I don't know if they're willing to separate them from their pegasus.

I think you'd have to have them as more standard lance fighters. They could use their class as inspiration for better air game/mobility and stuff like that, but I think the actual pegasus would have to be limited to the stage entrance, win screens and FS.

As far as characters as costumes for other characters, I think they should be done more sparingly. Hero is a great example of this, as he represents for different protags from four different Dragon Quest games.

In general, I think more costume-related efforts should go towards giving characters alts based on different outfits they’ve worn in the past. For example, Link is a character whose core design I think should’ve taken a few more elements from BotW, least of all his alts:
View attachment 385003

And another thing: I think the limit of every single character only having 8 alts max really hurts their alt potential, 8-Player Smash be damned. Wario was a character who had 12 alts in Brawl and Little Mac had 16 in Sm4sh while Wario regressed to 8 in Sm4sh, and then Little Mac regressed to 8 in Ultimate. Not saying every character should have 16 alts, just that having 8 max for every character is needlessly limiting.

I don't think you're going far enough. The way Smash handles alts is just odd and kinda terrible in its current state. I'm still in support of them adopting a more standard system where characters can have multiple unique costumes with each costume also getting a full set of color swaps.

View attachment 385123

Gonna stop you right there.

I hate this suggestion. Not your suggestion, but this specific suggestion. That all the Pikmin captains are interchangeable avatars for some "Pikmin conglomerate representative". I hate, hate, haaate it, and I'm going to outline why. Right here, right now.

First off, without even taking into account the aspects like the personalities of these characters, just... take a look at them. Then look me in the eye and tell me they can be suitably made into alts without wildly changing their proportions.


View attachment 385125View attachment 385126View attachment 385127

Most of them are not suitable for alts. Yes, the Koopalings have different body proportions and they're here, but there's a few things to consider for them.

1. The Koopalings have the Clown Car to mask their shrunken physiques, and when they don't have the kart to mask what's wrong with them, it immediately becomes apparent that something is off.

2. I firmly believe that the Koopalings as Jr. alts are an objectively flawed concept because they hold Jr. back. I really think that the Koopalings as alts really hinged on the novelty of having 8 characters in 1, especially since it coincided with the release of 8 player Smash. With that, Jr's moveset is less of a Bowser Jr. moveset and more of a Clown Car moveset, because it's really the one doing all of the work. Bowser Jr. doesn't use his paintbrush in his moveset except for his Final Smash, and the paintbrush is such a big part of his character that it's very obvious that it's missing in his base kit.

And its this second point that illustrates why I do not want these characters as Olimar alts; they won't allow for Olimar to be himself and embrace elements unique to him.

"The Pikmin leaders all function the same in gameplay." Yes, that's true. But, I really think Olimar should be on his own for a variety of factors despite this. Olimar is objectively one of the worst-represented characters in this franchise. He doesn't have his voice, he barely emotes, and his mannerisms do not line up with how he behaves in Pikmin games. His kit encourages the use of Pikmin as instantly-replenishable meat shields and does not care for their preservation. This could not be further from the truth of Olimar's character.

Olimar is an intelligent but well-rounded every-man in the Pikmin series. He’s got a family, works a humble delivery job, and writes extensively about his encounters on the Pikmin’s home planet in his frequent journal entries and video logs. He has emotions and shows them both physically and through text, whether it’s being grateful for the Koppaites rescuing him in the third game, or showing concern for the Pikmin themselves by trying to corral them out of dangerous situations. It’s easy to empathize with him, and he’s one of Nintendo’s best written protagonists. In the first game, if you accidentally kill a big chunk of your squad with poor management of bomb rocks, he’ll write about how the experience left him genuinely shaken, and if you manage to get a total Pikmin extinction, the guy will BERATE himself for his ineptitude as a leader!

View attachment 385129

Based on Olimar’s current appearance and animation work in Smash Bros, a clueless player couldn’t really be blamed for inferring that Olimar is nothing more than a fumbling doofus. Look at his idle animations and taunts, animations that are typically designed to better show off a character’s personality for when they’re not fighting. They make him look absent-minded or inexperienced. None of his actual personality is conveyed here, just sluggish, lethargic movements that don’t coalesce into a greater whole. Pikmin are so disposable in Smash and even swung around like bludgeoning tools for some attacks, that some people could get the idea that Olimar acts as an unfeeling, mute tyrant to his race of plant people that he presumably enslaved for his own gain.

I believe to help fix Olimar's character in Smash, you need to get rid of the mere thought of including characters that are not him as alts. I want Olimar to have better idle animations that suit his character; he could lean forward and scan the area with a hand over his head for one, while putting his hand on his communications device near his neck area and muttering something to himself for the other. He needs better victory animations that have him do things that HE has done!!

This comes with a proposal for a complete moveset overhaul, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. Point is, Alph isn't Olimar. The Rookie isn't Olimar. Louie is the furthest possible character you could get from Olimar. Only Olimar is Olimar. When you try to force a character to be someone they're not, you get Daisy in Smash Ultimate; a character that's only themself in name, with almost all of their actions not conveying who they actually are. You get the Koopalings with awkward proportions, generic animations that don't suit their indivudal personalities, and a tacked-on Final Smash as a last-ditch attempt to get something uniquely Bowser Jr. in there to compensate for how decisively not-Jr. his kit is.

And then there's this guy.

View attachment 385130

I do not want Louie as an alt for Olimar because he has more than enough material to work with to be his own distinct and fully-fleshed out fighter. On top of having his own personality and mannerisms, he's legitimately the closest character the Pikmin series has to an actual antagonist. Yeah, he can be played the same as the other captains... but you know what he's also capable of?

Spoiler: Pikmin 2 & 4 Final Bosses

Louie has his own distinct personality and mannerisms; once could argue that Olimar's current mannerisms in Smash are more befitting of Louie. He's shown himself to be able to survive on the Pikmin planet for any amount of time on his own by living off the fat of the land and using his cooking skills to gain sustenance from the multitude of bizarre enemies that inhabit it. That, combined with his ability to control insects for his own gain, would make it especially painful to see him.... slinging around Pikmin on the battlefield in the same manner Olimar does.

....sorry for the rant, but I am very, very passionate about Pikmin's representation in Smash Bros. I want the best for this series and I'm desperate for a fix to Olimar. Having more captains as alternate costumes for him is unequivocally out of the question for me; if it was up to me, I'd remove Alph to give Olimar the personality, mannerisms, and traits that are uniquely his.

So instead of giving Olimar more alternate characters as costumes that will undoubtedly further dilute his already nonexistent personality in Smash (and, in fact, drag those other characters down with him), I'd like to advocate for giving him more costumes based on his appearances from the Pikmin series; namely, these rad as hell Leafling and Bad-Ending Olimars as costumes, courtesy of Nano on GameBanana. Now THESE are costumes I can get behind!

View attachment 385132View attachment 385133
...can you tell I had an espresso this morning?

Very well put. I'm hoping they adjust Olimar next game as well, though if I'm being honest, I don't have high hopes for that.

But the body shape differences between the Pikmin captains are about as much as differences between gender variants of the same character.

I'm with Gorgonzales on this one. While I think you could fudge Louie (and maybe Brittany) a little to make it work on the proportions side, I'd still prefer Louie as a separate fighter. I think Pikmin is due for a second fighter by now. Louie or the rookie with Oatchi would be my personal choices. At the very least, maybe they can finally make Alph into an echo like originally intended.

As for the others, the President is too fat and Charlie too buff to work as costumes.

I still think the Rescue Corps members are the best fits for costumes since they're pretty much made from the character creator and meant to fit over the body shapes of the other characters. Though this would also depend on how they handle the base character. Bernard, I think works well as a costume for Olimar or an echo Alph. The taller Corps members might work over Louie, but that depends on the direction they would take for his moveset. If he's closer to Olimar as a semi-clone then sure, but if they play into the more wildlife tamer/survivalist side then maybe not.

I think what they should do is replace all instances of Jr. holding a melee weapon with his paintbrush, and slightly rework some of the existing moves where he uses the paintbrush in conjunction with the clown car. Also, he should share the Inklings' paint status mechanic.

I'm likely in the minority, but I'd actually like for Jr. to be separated from the Koopalings entirely, with the latter becoming Jr.'s echo fighter. The Kooplaings would keep the current moveset as is, while Jr. would replace the hammer/fork with his paintbrush and maybe change a few moves outright to make him more unique.

What worries me about Sonic having the same colors as other characters is that a lot of the Sonic characters have the same body shape to begin with. The ones who don't tend to be secondary characters at most like Vector and Big. It would be a pain to tell the characters apart in the heat of gameplay, especially on the stages with darker lighting.

Honestly, outside of Sonic and Shadow, I don't think this would be too much of an issue. The only case where I think this could become tricky is if they all share the Spin Dash. Tails would get around this since his tails trail behind his ball form, but I think you can reasonably solve this for the others by giving them different colored trails like in the 3D games. So, Sonic's would emit a blue light/trail regardless of palette swap. Knuckles would have red, Amy pink, Shadow yellow, etc.

Would Octoling work as an alt, or would it be better that they end up as "dumping ground for moves the base character has no room for" the way Isabelle kind of is? On one hand, they're a full aesthetic option in the Splatoon series as of 2's DLC, but on the other hand, there are some stuff missing from Inkling that could still work.

Splatoon has more than enough to work with for multiple unique characters. In the case of Octolings specifically, they could be made into costumes for Inkling, an echo fighter, semi-clone, or fully unique and all scenarios would fit just fine imo.

My personal ideal would be to make the avatar Octolings into costumes for the Inkling while adding all the idol pairs (and maybe Big Man) as unique fighters. There's no scenario where I see this actually being the case but that's what I'd want.[/QUOTE]

 

[Quillion]

I'd change each to scroll through something different. X/Y for colors. L/R for costumes. ZL/ZR for character variations.

You might want to try Smash Crusade or CMC+ because both do pretty much exactly that.

As for the others, the President is too fat and Charlie too buff to work as costumes.

Again, they made male WFT smaller to work with female WFT's animations.

I'm likely in the minority, but I'd actually like for Jr. to be separated from the Koopalings entirely, with the latter becoming Jr.'s echo fighter. The Kooplaings would keep the current moveset as is, while Jr. would replace the hammer/fork with his paintbrush and maybe change a few moves outright to make him more unique.

I guess it could work if they use their wands whereas Jr. uses his paintbrush.

 

[Kirbeh]

Again, they made male WFT smaller to work with female WFT's animations.

I'm well aware, but the proportions difference between the Wii Fit Trainers is not the same situation as the Pikmin captains. You slim them down, but then they wouldn't look like themselves. The Male WFT was made shorter but was already of a slim build, so everything still translates over. Charlie is both taller and wider than his fellow captains and the president, being quite fat, is also roughly twice as wide compared to Olimar. This is more comparable to trying to slot Wario over Mario. I understand that the base gameplay of Pikmin is pretty much the same regardless of who you play as, but not all the captains are close enough for the costume method to work. You either have hitbox differences (which defeats the point of making them costumes) or misleading hitboxes where a move appears to hit but doesn't actually connect.

I guess it could work if they use their wands whereas Jr. uses his paintbrush.

Referencing the wands could be a nice touch I suppose, but it doesn't really affect Jr. in this scenario. The intent is to separate him a bit from the current move set and retroactively make the others into the echo while leaving them pretty much unchanged. I think using the wands for their Final Smash would definitely be a must though. They'd be losing the Shadow Mario FS in this scenario as that would be kept for Jr. exclusively.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Something I forgot to note; Echoes must be the same bodyshape. They are basically based around an Alternate Costume made playable when it comes to design. So if they can't work as an Alt(like most Captains), they can't be an Echo. This doesn't prevent them from being a regular clone like Dr. Mario etc.

Deceptive hurtboxes are also not exactly a good gameplay design, though it works if it's just clothing sometimes. I.E. Meta Ridley's design makes him slightly more armored than Ridley, but in this case, it's not heavily differentiated.

That said, I'd love to see Shadow Mewtwo and its Armor from the Anime as alts. As well as any old alts returning. :3

 

[fogbadge]

Ultimately I’m not sure how I feel about characters as costumes. My main experience with it is in smash and I’m not convinced they did it well. I have seen it in injustice 1 where there were a few costumes that changed characters into other characters but it was purely visual and it could just as easily have been the usual character dressed as the other one. Maybe the premium skins of injustice 2 would have sold me on them a bit better. mind you injustice 2 replacing costumes with cosmetics was certainly a bad idea

on the whole though I am in favour of having more costumes in smash. Especially after link had an array of outfits three games in a row. In his home series I mean

 

[Perkilator]

Before I get into a little rant of mine, I just wanted to let everyone know that’s I’ve made a similar thread for opinions on Echo Fighters.

With that out of the way, I’d like to vent about how people see Bowser Jr. and Hero and assume they can just apply their logic to any character. When a character from ARMS was revealed to be the first fighter in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 nearly four years ago (God I’m ****in’ old), one of the assumptions was that multiple ARMS characters would be costumes akin to Hero or Bowser Jr. despite the fact that in ARMS, all of the characters have significant differences from each other, even among the ones with a similar body shape.

This highlights a pet peeve of mine, in which Smash fans take characters who are even vaguely similar to each other in some way and make them alts of each other.

 

[Quillion]

Before I get into a little rant of mine, I just wanted to let everyone know that’s I’ve made a similar thread for opinions on Echo Fighters.

With that out of the way, I’d like to vent about how people see Bowser Jr. and Hero and assume they can just apply their logic to any character. When a character from ARMS was revealed to be the first fighter in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 nearly four years ago (God I’m ****in’ old), one of the assumptions was that multiple ARMS characters would be costumes akin to Hero or Bowser Jr. despite the fact that in ARMS, all of the characters have significant differences from each other, even among the ones with a similar body shape.

This highlights a pet peeve of mine, in which Smash fans take characters who are even vaguely similar to each other in some way and make them alts of each other.

Well yeah, it wouldn't work for the ARMS characters should that game get a sequel (God forbid).

But there still has to be some range within which differences can be fudged acceptably.

 

[Gorgonzales]

With that out of the way, I’d like to vent about how people see Bowser Jr. and Hero and assume they can just apply their logic to any character. When a character from ARMS was revealed to be the first fighter in Fighters Pass Vol. 2 nearly four years ago (God I’m ****in’ old), one of the assumptions was that multiple ARMS characters would be costumes akin to Hero or Bowser Jr. despite the fact that in ARMS, all of the characters have significant differences from each other, even among the ones with a similar body shape.

This highlights a pet peeve of mine, in which Smash fans take characters who are even vaguely similar to each other in some way and make them alts of each other.

THANK YOU. Just because a character has a similar body type doesn't mean they should automatically be an alternate skin. Some of the suggestions I see for skins are akin to asking for Luigi as a Mario alt. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[Northsouthmap]

THANK YOU. Just because a character has a similar body type doesn't mean they should automatically be an alternate skin. Some of the suggestions I see for skins are akin to asking for Luigi as a Mario alt. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Endermen has smaller arms than Steve, and KH Sora is shorter than KH2/3 Sora.