Character Roster Trend

[Charizard92]

I'm only responding to this first part for Reyairia since she got banned for a week.


Dark Samus was only made for the Prime series though, which is done and over with now. Ridley on the other hand has lived after the events of the Prime trilogy (chronologically), which is more than I can say for that radioactive doppleganger.

Ridley's been around a lot longer too, and is the one who made Samus what she is today, not DS or anyone else.

In Brawl, Dark Samus didn't even become a Samus color swap. At least Ridley had 2 boss appearances (both with their own exclusive theme songs), his own stage (Norfair), etc.

If Smash Brothers still has a future, Ridley's bound to have more of a role (playable or not) than any Samus clone will ever have.

How would a 3rd version of a character that's already been included be better than a whole other character anyway?


Most of which have fanbases they don't even deserve , as far as the 4th Pokemon generation goes.

It's more of practicality than popularity and # of games they were in. Ridley is huge, and while he isn't the worst character they could make playable in smash (My vote goes to Marx), he would have so many problems that the game play will become broken to a degree, namely due to Ridley's large size and having traits more characteristic of a Boss.

Dark Samus, on the other hand, is around the size of Samus and is more practical. I have given this issue to other threads and many people have a hard time seeing Dark Samus as a Clone of Samus, Luigified, maybe, but not clone.

Again, my discovery seems to be ignored. I discovered that the trend will repeat itself once the second Ally has been reached. Legend of Zelda is the only example here. The trend goes Protagonist (Link), ally 1 (Zelda), antagonist (Ganondorf), ally 2 (Shiek), and back to protagonist (Toon Link). No one seems to notice this.

 

[acv]

why does the OP mencion NES accesories?

 

[Ridley_Prime]

It's more of practicality than popularity and # of games they were in. Ridley is huge, and while he isn't the worst character they could make playable in smash (My vote goes to Marx), he would have so many problems that the game play will become broken to a degree

Huh. Is that so? Well either way, Smash Bros doesn't need Ridley to become broken to a degree, because Brawl already is broken with characters like Pit, Meta Knight, and Toon Link especially.

namely due to Ridley's large size

That being a real problem is quite an overstatement.

and having traits more characteristic of a Boss.

Like what? Being able to fly? Having wings and a long tail? I see playable characters in Brawl that have those exact traits, so that's no excuse for Ridley not to be playable. If Sakurai thought otherwise (which I think he did), then he's just biased. They even proved they could handle large, winged character models when they added Charizard.

Dark Samus, on the other hand, is around the size of Samus and is more practical. I have given this issue to other threads and many people have a hard time seeing Dark Samus as a Clone of Samus, Luigified, maybe, but not clone.

I used to have a hard time thinking of her as one as well, but due to Sakurai's obvious love for clones (Toon Link, Lucas, all 3 Star Fox characters having the same freakin' Final Smash, etc.), I'm convinced now that Dark Samus would have been a clone one way or another. Most likely as a Mewtwo-esque Samus (due to Dark Samus being real floaty and what not), or a Ganondorf-esque Samus (due to Dark Samus having stronger, Phazon-enhanced attacks), or maybe a mixture of both.

Sure. Dark Samus might've had 2 different B attacks or so, but it still would've had pretty much the exact same feel as Aran due to having the same size, shape, and even a similar name. That spells out 'clone' right there (Luigified clone, regular clone, all the same to me ).


But, this is not to say that Dark Samus shouldn't ever be playable in a Smash Bros game. She would still make a sensible Metroid addition, but over Ridley? Hell no.

Again, my discovery seems to be ignored. I discovered that the trend will repeat itself once the second Ally has been reached. Legend of Zelda is the only example here. The trend goes Protagonist (Link), ally 1 (Zelda), antagonist (Ganondorf), ally 2 (Shiek), and back to protagonist (Toon Link). No one seems to notice this.

Eh... I guess I'll have to wait for Reyairia to wake up and have me say something to that for her. >.>

 

[superyoshi888]

If pokemon did follow the trend, then they could have put Darkrai in instead of Mewtwo since he was removed from Brawl. Also, Darkrai is more of a villain. Yes, he is the hero in the anime, but in the games he usually always is placed in a villainous role.

 

[Charizard92]

Then again, Ridley was always that large in comparison to Samus. Bowser's size, is not constant (I have Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Sunshine, and Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser is always larger than Mario, but how large varies). The traits more characteristic of a boss, OK, that is me being narrow minded.

You clearly can't see the difference between Luigified and Clone? go tell that to many forums and see how many people yell at you. It is somewhat easier for Sakurai to use the small one, and popularity is typically ignored. Hello! Ridley was the most wanted by fans, if Popularity was enough to warrant his entrance, we'd have him.

Boss like traits aren't dragon-like or with a tail, boss like as in way they behave. Have you seen Ridley recoil when you hit him with an attack? have you seen him be stunned by any attack Samus has done to him? I'm not talking about Meta or Omega Ridley (the answer would clearly be yes there), but the Ridley in Pre-Gamecube Metroid. Charizard has been knocked back and stunned before (see the 3D games), but Ridley, as of my knowledge, has not. Also, Charizard is 5'7, not big at all.

Gee this can last forever, see, Dark Samus seems easier in Sakurai's eyes than Ridley. I would ask him to try to make Ridley practical, but he would possibly see my requests as impractical. Besides, on that graph, Mario is too big I swear. And Trophies do not translate to size fixing.

Ridley, however, would seem kinda cool to add. At least he isn't the basis for Tabuu's attacks like Marx is.


Edit: I decided to try measuring characters against each other. Looking at a Picture of Bowser compared to Mario in Brawl, Bowser is less than double Mario's size. The Picture you gave me has Bowser more than Double Mario's size, so they aren't entirely off. Ridley on the other hand.. I compared Meta Ridley's jaw (in Metroid Prime 3) to Samus herself. Ridley's head is around 1.5 times Samus's size, and that is just Meta's head. And Meta Ridley is supposed to be the same size as Ridley isn't he?. Things aren't looking too good for the Dragon Alien thing.

 

[IsmaR]

Hello! Ridley was the most wanted by fans, if Popularity was enough to warrant his entrance, we'd have him.

Popularity got him two boss appearences, a stage(two if you count Frigate Orpheon being the first place you encounter Meta Ridley), a theme, etc. Ridley wasn't made playable because Sakurai didn't think he could. Truth is, he can, and he knows that now(from an interview, I believe)

Boss like traits aren't dragon-like or with a tail, boss like as in way they behave. Have you seen Ridley recoil when you hit him with an attack? have you seen him be stunned by any attack Samus has done to him? I'm not talking about Meta or Omega Ridley (the answer would clearly be yes there), but the Ridley in Pre-Gamecube Metroid. Charizard has been knocked back and stunned before (see the 3D games), but Ridley, as of my knowledge, has not.

I swear I would've thought that was the NES and SNES era.

Gee this can last forever, see, Dark Samus seems easier in Sakurai's eyes than Ridley.

A character who has only appeared in Prime games, which aren't that big in Japan, and the fact that DS is dead say otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I would love DS(and wanted her) to be in Smash. But she has little chance getting in over Ridley, especially now.

Edit: I decided to try measuring characters against each other. Looking at a Picture of Bowser compared to Mario in Brawl, Bowser is less than double Mario's size. The Picture you gave me has Bowser more than Double Mario's size, so they aren't entirely off. Ridley on the other hand.. I compared Meta Ridley's jaw (in Metroid Prime 3) to Samus herself. Ridley's head is around 1.5 times Samus's size, and that is just Meta's head. And Meta Ridley is supposed to be the same size as Ridley isn't he?. Things aren't looking too good for the Dragon Alien thing.

Smash =/= Canon. In Prime, Meta Ridley grew in size since Metroid(obviously). He changes size between games, almost as much as Bowser. You don't see Bowser as a boss in Smash, despite the fact he is almost 10 time Mario's size in most games.

 

[IsmaR]

EDIT: **** lag. Sorry, double post.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

If pokemon did follow the trend, then they could have put Darkrai in instead of Mewtwo since he was removed from Brawl.

That's where Lucario came in.

no darkrai 4 u!

Yes, he is the hero in the anime, but in the games he usually always is placed in a villainous role.

The same could be said about Mewtwo and other legendaries when it comes to the games due to their destructive behaviors.

Then again, Ridley was always that large in comparison to Samus. Bowser's size, is not constant (I have Super Mario 64 DS, Super Mario Sunshine, and Super Mario Galaxy, Bowser is always larger than Mario, but how large varies). The traits more characteristic of a boss, OK, that is me being narrow minded.

Yeah... and to be fair, Ridley's size isn't really consistent either. He was much smaller in the Melee intro, and was super-sized in Brawl so he could be a boss, but still yet, his trophy in SSBB wasn't much bigger than the other character trophies.

You clearly can't see the difference between Luigified and Clone? go tell that to many forums and see how many people yell at you.

I've been lectured about it before, and I'm aware of their differences, but most of those differences are so little to me that I don't really bother to label a character as a regular clone or a Luigified clone, but just a clone. They still have a bunch of recycled moves and stuff regardless.

It is somewhat easier for Sakurai to use the small one, and popularity is typically ignored. Hello! Ridley was the most wanted by fans, if Popularity was enough to warrant his entrance, we'd have him.

You do realize that Sakurai is just as biased as the rest of us when it came to making the roster, right? He doesn't regard Metroid very highly either. Even if Ridley happened to be an impossible addition or something (which he's not), I'm sure we would've at least gotten Dark Samus, but we didn't. Instead, we got someone who appeared for about half an hour in Zero Mission, and was shown in the end for 2 minutes at most in every other game... I'm not saying ZSS shouldn't of been added, but over Dark Samus and Ridley? Come on...

You're right about the popularity part though. It alone is not enough to guarantee a character's inclusion, but Ridley's got more than just popularity (unlike Geno). He's got the role of Metroid's main antagonist like Bowser and Ganon do in their respective series.
Sure, he's never really the final boss like they are, but neither is Dedede, and he still got in Brawl as Kirby's main villain regardless.

Boss like traits aren't dragon-like or with a tail, boss like as in way they behave. Have you seen Ridley recoil when you hit him with an attack? have you seen him be stunned by any attack Samus has done to him? I'm not talking about Meta or Omega Ridley (the answer would clearly be yes there), but the Ridley in Pre-Gamecube Metroid. Charizard has been knocked back and stunned before (see the 3D games), but Ridley, as of my knowledge, has not.

I'm pretty sure that being temporarily immobilized after getting hit by Pikachu's Thunder attack counts as 'stunned' (Subspace Emissary scene).

Also, Charizard is 5'7, not big at all.

Still one of the largest playables in the game though.

Gee this can last forever, see, Dark Samus seems easier in Sakurai's eyes than Ridley.

Since neither of them were playable, that can't really be proven.

Besides, on that graph, Mario is too big I swear.

He's still not as tall as Samus in the graph though, so even if he is a little too big, it's not too far off.

And Trophies do not translate to size fixing.

Even though trophies use the exact same models as the characters/bosses in the game?

Edit: I decided to try measuring characters against each other. Looking at a Picture of Bowser compared to Mario in Brawl, Bowser is less than double Mario's size. The Picture you gave me has Bowser more than Double Mario's size, so they aren't entirely off. Ridley on the other hand.. I compared Meta Ridley's jaw (in Metroid Prime 3) to Samus herself. Ridley's head is around 1.5 times Samus's size, and that is just Meta's head. Things aren't looking too good for the Dragon Alien thing.

Like I said, Bowser's not the only one whose size is inconsistent.

Is there any game besides Metroid Prime 3 where Ridley's head is around 1.5 times the size of Samus? Of course not.

And Meta Ridley is supposed to be the same size as Ridley isn't he?

That, I don't know. I doubt it though.

 

[Fawriel]

Ridley would have to be large, relatively fast, have good range, strength, projectiles, and a good recovery, and could be anything between lightweight and heavyweight given how skinny he is.
Snake is sort of large, relatively fast, has great and disjointed range, absurd strength, projectiles, and a good recovery, and is the second-heaviest character in the game.
And size is a weakness.
And Ganondorf is playable although he can only be hurt by the Master Sword and Light Arrows.

Ridley would work, end of discussion, back on topic.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah... and to be fair, Ridley's size isn't really consistent either. He was much smaller in the Melee intro, and was super-sized in Brawl so he could be a boss, but still yet, his trophy in SSBB wasn't much bigger than the other character trophies.


I've been lectured about it before, and I'm aware of their differences, but most of those differences are so little to me that I don't really bother to label a character as a regular clone or a Luigified clone, but just a clone. They still have a bunch of recycled moves and stuff regardless.


You do realize that Sakurai is just as biased as the rest of us when it came to making the roster, right? He doesn't regard Metroid very highly either. Even if Ridley happened to be an impossible addition or something (which he's not), I'm sure we would've at least gotten Dark Samus, but we didn't. Instead, we got someone who appeared for about half an hour in Zero Mission, and was shown in the end for 2 minutes at most in every other game... I'm not saying ZSS shouldn't of been added, but over Dark Samus and Ridley? Come on...

You're right about the popularity part though. It alone is not enough to guarantee a character's inclusion, but Ridley's got more than just popularity (unlike Geno). He's got the role of Metroid's main antagonist like Bowser and Ganon do in their respective series.
Sure, he's never really the final boss like they are, but neither is Dedede, and he still got in Brawl as Kirby's main villain regardless.


I'm pretty sure that being temporarily immobilized after getting hit by Pikachu's Thunder attack counts as 'stunned' (Subspace Emissary scene).


Still one of the largest playables in the game though.


Since neither of them were playable, that can't really be proven.


He's still not as tall as Samus in the graph though, so even if he is a little too big, it's not too far off.


Even though trophies use the exact same models as the characters/bosses in the game?


Like I said, Bowser's not the only one whose size is inconsistent.

Is there any game besides Metroid Prime 3 where Ridley's head is around 1.5 times the size of Samus? Of course not.


That, I don't know. I doubt it though.

Understood

Trophies are horrible size rulers because they are almost all the same size! Ridley's trophy is around the same size as Samus' and we all know that Ridley is bigger (except in the original Metroid, for some reason Bosses weren't much bigger than Samus).

Clone means that almost all of two character's movesets are Identical, while Luigified means that there are some similarities between the two, yet there is some sense of originality. Comparing Luigi to Mario is the best example. In the original, Luigi was almost exactly like his brother, being the first clone. In Melee, Luigi got a different side B along with a change in a few of his standard attacks, thus making Luigi the first Luigified character. In Brawl, Luigi got further different from Mario since Mario's down B was replaced with FLUDD. All clones from Melee that have returned had tweaks to their moveset to make them Luigified (Ganondorf's side B has different Properties to C Falcon's Side b, Falco's reflector doesn't stay close to his body like Fox's, both had their standard moveset changed, etc) and most new characters that seem like clones are actually Luigified (Lucas has similar specials and standard attacks to Ness, but has other different attacks like a more powerful U and D smash, Wolf has a different standard moveset to Fox, etc.) the only true clone in Brawl is Toon Link, and even that is up to debate.

That does seem true.

Alas, Sometimes long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either. If the characters with the longest history were the only ones included, explain:
Pit
IC
ROB
Olimar
Lucario
All these characters did not have many games or years under their belt, most of these hail from dead series, except for Lucario, who is the absolute youngest character in Brawl.

I was asking about super Metroid genius!

True

True

Ridley's own head is around 1.5x Samus' height, in fact, I think he is actually smaller than Brawl, Sakurai might have tried to shrink him!

Not on the height bit Genius!

Bowser's size was less consistent than Ridley, even across most of his forms (not betting on Omega Ridley)

Super Metroid Genius! You gave me another example when you were trying to point out Ridley's size! How does it feel like giving me evidence for your case and supporting mine!

Back on topic. Have any of you seen my discovery!

 

[luigiluck]

it may be possible

 

[Aryman]

Understood

Trophies are horrible size rulers because they are almost all the same size! Ridley's trophy is around the same size as Samus' and we all know that Ridley is bigger (except in the original Metroid, for some reason Bosses weren't much bigger than Samus).

Clone means that almost all of two character's movesets are Identical, while Luigified means that there are some similarities between the two, yet there is some sense of originality. Comparing Luigi to Mario is the best example. In the original, Luigi was almost exactly like his brother, being the first clone. In Melee, Luigi got a different side B along with a change in a few of his standard attacks, thus making Luigi the first Luigified character. In Brawl, Luigi got further different from Mario since Mario's down B was replaced with FLUDD. All clones from Melee that have returned had tweaks to their moveset to make them Luigified (Ganondorf's side B has different Properties to C Falcon's Side b, Falco's reflector doesn't stay close to his body like Fox's, both had their standard moveset changed, etc) and most new characters that seem like clones are actually Luigified (Lucas has similar specials and standard attacks to Ness, but has other different attacks like a more powerful U and D smash, Wolf has a different standard moveset to Fox, etc.) the only true clone in Brawl is Toon Link, and even that is up to debate.

That does seem true.

Alas, Sometimes long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either. If the characters with the longest history were the only ones included, explain:
Pit
IC
ROB
Olimar
Lucario
All these characters did not have many games or years under their belt, most of these hail from dead series, except for Lucario, who is the absolute youngest character in Brawl.

I was asking about super Metroid genius!

True

True

Ridley's own head is around 1.5x Samus' height, in fact, I think he is actually smaller than Brawl, Sakurai might have tried to shrink him!

Not on the height bit Genius!

Bowser's size was less consistent than Ridley, even across most of his forms (not betting on Omega Ridley)

Super Metroid Genius! You gave me another example when you were trying to point out Ridley's size! How does it feel like giving me evidence for your case and supporting mine!

Back on topic. Have any of you seen my discovery!

You sir, are a moron. Good day.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

About Ridley -

If Sakurai cared about proportions, Olimar would be two inches high.

 

[Charizard92]

You sir, are a moron. Good day.

Hey, I heard that! I am simply speaking my opinion and you call me a moron! Not Fair, not Fair at all! I was asking for an explanation otherwise, not an insult!

Also, Among two characters of different species, Sakurai doesn't really care, but among two characters of the same series, he gives more care among them, so Ridley would be big.

 

[DMurr]

I would hope the next Smash Bros. game branches out in character selection from other games.. instead of continuing the trend. Well maybe some characters would be good inclusions but hopefully not a lot. I'd rather new franchises get some spotlight, too.

 

[Charizard92]

Deciding to check out Ridley's size for myself, I checked pictures of him as a boss in Brawl. Ridley is over 2x Lucario's size which means he is around double Bowser's Size, not counting wings and tail. That means that his wings and Tail might be offsetting his size and confusing people.

 

[Phaazoid]

Alas, Sometimes long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either. If the characters with the longest history were the only ones included, explain:
Pit
IC
ROB
Olimar
Lucario
All these characters did not have many games or years under their belt, most of these hail from dead series, except for Lucario, who is the absolute youngest character in Brawl.

first off, i want to spot one obvious mistake, Olimar is one of the newest characters to be added to brawl, lucario being the only one newer. the pikmin franchise is relatively new, and it shows the order of when the franchises came out in all star mode.
and people would argue that kid icarus is dead, there are rumors about a new one being announced this E3.

secondly, SIZE ISN'T AN ISSUE

the dimensions of a character don't matter AT ALL when adding them to smash. in his games, Olimar is smaller than a battery. mario should be able to step on him and win. Bowser has ranged from Godzilla size to mario's hight. Ridley has ranged from Godzilla size to Samus's hight. They could downsize and make Kraid a character! (i hope not).

I'm not against the idea of Dark samus, it could easily be completely different from samus. In fact, i support the idea of it being in the next smash game, along side ridley. but i don't think it should get in at ridley's expense. Ridley is far more deserving, has made far more appearances, is far more popular, and continues to gravitate random threads like this one to his discussion.


edit :
*reads first post*
well, that is a bit of an interesting find, but it's a little bit useless since we can't really know because there are so many exceptions, unanswered questions (fifth character?) so it can't be used to properly identify almost any characters at all, becuase even things like the villain for the metroid series is surprisingly debatable...

but the exceptions are understandable, not all series could possibly follow the same formula. I personally hope it's right though, because then ridley's almost garunteed =)

 

[motsalogeL]

Understood

Trophies are horrible size rulers because they are almost all the same size! Ridley's trophy is around the same size as Samus' and we all know that Ridley is bigger (except in the original Metroid, for some reason Bosses weren't much bigger than Samus).

Clone means that almost all of two character's movesets are Identical, while Luigified means that there are some similarities between the two, yet there is some sense of originality. Comparing Luigi to Mario is the best example. In the original, Luigi was almost exactly like his brother, being the first clone. In Melee, Luigi got a different side B along with a change in a few of his standard attacks, thus making Luigi the first Luigified character. In Brawl, Luigi got further different from Mario since Mario's down B was replaced with FLUDD. All clones from Melee that have returned had tweaks to their moveset to make them Luigified (Ganondorf's side B has different Properties to C Falcon's Side b, Falco's reflector doesn't stay close to his body like Fox's, both had their standard moveset changed, etc) and most new characters that seem like clones are actually Luigified (Lucas has similar specials and standard attacks to Ness, but has other different attacks like a more powerful U and D smash, Wolf has a different standard moveset to Fox, etc.) the only true clone in Brawl is Toon Link, and even that is up to debate.

That does seem true.

Alas, Sometimes long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either. If the characters with the longest history were the only ones included, explain:
Pit
IC
ROB
Olimar
Lucario
All these characters did not have many games or years under their belt, most of these hail from dead series, except for Lucario, who is the absolute youngest character in Brawl.

I was asking about super Metroid genius!

True

True

Ridley's own head is around 1.5x Samus' height, in fact, I think he is actually smaller than Brawl, Sakurai might have tried to shrink him!

Not on the height bit Genius!

Bowser's size was less consistent than Ridley, even across most of his forms (not betting on Omega Ridley)

Super Metroid Genius! You gave me another example when you were trying to point out Ridley's size! How does it feel like giving me evidence for your case and supporting mine!

Back on topic. Have any of you seen my discovery!

What the **** are you talking about? Stop making things up and try to actually back up your pointless and ignorant arguments instead of acting like a prick.

Honestly, brawl boards: never ****ing change.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Trophies are horrible size rulers because they are almost all the same size!

Why do I get the feeling that you're just basing that off of the one pic I posted? I've played around with plenty other Brawl trophies before (boss and character ones included), and they come in various sizes. They're not all the same.

Ridley's trophy is around the same size as Samus' and we all know that Ridley is bigger (except in the original Metroid, for some reason Bosses weren't much bigger than Samus).

Uh, dude. Ridley's trophy is bigger than Samus's, even if they're around the same size. They're also around the same size in Super Metroid and other media, but Ridley's still bigger regardless, though not by a landslide like Kraid is.

Clone means that almost all of two character's movesets are Identical, while Luigified means that there are some similarities between the two, yet there is some sense of originality. Comparing Luigi to Mario is the best example. In the original, Luigi was almost exactly like his brother, being the first clone. In Melee, Luigi got a different side B along with a change in a few of his standard attacks, thus making Luigi the first Luigified character. In Brawl, Luigi got further different from Mario since Mario's down B was replaced with FLUDD. All clones from Melee that have returned had tweaks to their moveset to make them Luigified (Ganondorf's side B has different Properties to C Falcon's Side b, Falco's reflector doesn't stay close to his body like Fox's, both had their standard moveset changed, etc) and most new characters that seem like clones are actually Luigified (Lucas has similar specials and standard attacks to Ness, but has other different attacks like a more powerful U and D smash, Wolf has a different standard moveset to Fox, etc.) the only true clone in Brawl is Toon Link, and even that is up to debate.

Like I said, I've been lectured about the difference between the 2 terms before, so you didn't have to go explaining all that, but whatever.

I agree that Wolf isn't a clone, but those you mentioned from Melee still seem to be just that. Only now they have 1 altered B move. Whoopdy doo.

It would've made sense for Ganondorf to have his sword as a main part of his moveset like he pretty much always uses in the Zelda games, but instead he uses primarily his fists again like Captain Falcon.

So you think Ganon and Falco having one altered B move makes them Luigified? Well, if you say so. I'm kind of indifferent on that.

Clones haven't died though. There's just less of them this time around, and anyone who thinks Toon Link isn't a clone is kidding themselves. He's a broken one at that.

Alas, Sometimes long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either. If the characters with the longest history were the only ones included, explain:
Pit
IC
ROB
Olimar
Lucario
All these characters did not have many games or years under their belt, most of these hail from dead series.

I never said that characters with the longest history were the only ones included, but history still plays a big part with most of the characters regardless. I was simply saying earlier that Ridley has just as much a villain history as Bowser and Ganon, which is true.

except for Lucario, who is the absolute youngest character in Brawl

That seems to contradict what you said earlier about popularity being typically ignored, because that's basically what got Lucario this far (and with Mewtwo's popularity declining, even though he's done more for Pokemon than Lucario ever has).

Sure. You can say that long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either, but it doesn't change the fact Mewtwo was still in Melee, and partly because of his history as a 1st generation Pokemon.

I was asking about super Metroid genius!

Well if it's Super Metroid you're talking about, Ridley can be stunned in that too.

Shooting him so many times with the regular Power Beam temporarily immobilizes him and causes him to drop the Metroid hatchling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_WpiZzxb4Q

Ridley's own head is around 1.5x Samus' height

Again, that was only in one game. Plus, it was his Meta form, not his original form.

in fact, I think he is actually smaller than Brawl, Sakurai might have tried to shrink him!

Tried to shrink him? Ridley's appearance in the Melee intro appears to imply the opposite.

Besides, trying to shrink him would be pointless if they still only intended him to be a boss anyway.

Not on the height bit Genius!

You must've not looked closey enough then. Samus is still slightly taller than Mario.

Bowser's size was less consistent than Ridley, even across most of his forms (not betting on Omega Ridley)

Omega Ridley's much smaller than his Meta form regardless, and Omega's head sure as hell isn't 1.5 times Samus's height.

Super Metroid Genius! You gave me another example when you were trying to point out Ridley's size! How does it feel like giving me evidence for your case and supporting mine!

Oh my. Someone's been living in lala land. I never gave you evidence that actually supported your case, only mine.

Also, Reyairia says: Bad move, Charizard62, I'm a member of Wrath of Ridley. Hehehe.

I'm not against the idea of Dark samus, it could easily be completely different from samus. In fact, i support the idea of it being in the next smash game, along side ridley. but i don't think it should get in at ridley's expense. Ridley is far more deserving, has made far more appearances, is far more popular, and continues to gravitate random threads like this one to his discussion.

My sentiments exactly ^^, just to point out that I'm not against Dark Samus either.

 

[Charizard92]

Why do I get the feeling that you're just basing that off of the one pic I posted? I've played around with plenty other Brawl trophies before (boss and character ones included), and they come in various sizes. They're not all the same.


Uh, dude. Ridley's trophy is bigger than Samus's, even if they're around the same size. They're also around the same size in Super Metroid and other media, but Ridley's still bigger regardless, though not by a landslide like Kraid is.


Like I said, I've been lectured about the difference between the 2 terms before, so you didn't have to go explaining all that, but whatever.

I agree that Wolf isn't a clone, but those you mentioned from Melee still seem to be just that. Only now they have 1 altered B move. Whoopdy doo.

It would've made sense for Ganondorf to have his sword as a main part of his moveset like he pretty much always uses in the Zelda games, but instead he uses primarily his fists again like Captain Falcon.

So you think Ganon and Falco having one altered B move makes them Luigified? Well, if you say so. I'm kind of indifferent on that.

Clones haven't died though. There's just less of them this time around, and anyone who thinks Toon Link isn't a clone is kidding themselves. He's a broken one at that.


I never said that characters with the longest history were the only ones included, but history still plays a big part with most of the characters regardless. I was simply saying earlier that Ridley has just as much a villain history as Bowser and Ganon, which is true.


That seems to contradict what you said earlier about popularity being typically ignored, because that's basically what got Lucario this far (and with Mewtwo's popularity declining, even though he's done more for Pokemon than Lucario ever has).

Sure. You can say that long history doesn't translate into a spot in Smash either, but it doesn't change the fact Mewtwo was still in Melee, and partly because of his history as a 1st generation Pokemon.


Well if it's Super Metroid you're talking about, Ridley can be stunned in that too.

Shooting him so many times with the regular Power Beam temporarily immobilizes him and causes him to drop the Metroid hatchling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_WpiZzxb4Q


Again, that was only in one game. Plus, it was his Meta form, not his original form.


Tried to shrink him? Ridley's appearance in the Melee intro appears to imply the opposite.

Besides, trying to shrink him would be pointless if they still only intended him to be a boss anyway.


You must've not looked closey enough then. Samus is still slightly taller than Mario.


Omega Ridley's much smaller than his Meta form regardless, and Omega's head sure as hell isn't 1.5 times Samus's height.


Oh my. Someone's been living in lala land. I never gave you evidence that actually supported your case, only mine.

Also, Reyairia says: Bad move, Charizard62, I'm a member of Wrath of Ridley. Hehehe.

Still, Trophies aren't good examples, get that through your skull.

There is a list on the Smash wiki, you can argue there. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Clone the link.

I said that.

When I run out of fuel for a good argument, I get reasons that are faultier.

Doesn't look like he gets stunned.

I've measured Brawl Ridley to Brawl Samus, his body and head is big, possibly the limit for any character, but with legs not on the ground, wings and a tail, he's kinda pushing it.

Samus is taller than Mario, but she is taller than the graph.

I was excluding Omega Ridley from the group genius!

In your chart, Ridley's head is around 1.5X Samus' height, IN YOUR OWN GRAPH! That is how you accidentally helped me, because I found that with your graph.

You said my name wrong

Finally, to end it all, I decided to take a look at Ridley myself. I admit, I was kinda wrong on the details, namely since his wings and tail did make him look bigger. The main reason why I'm still arguing is because You're still arguing. I posted earlier that I did some measuring against Brawl Lucario and it looks like he isn't that big. I measured with Samus and it turned out that Sakurai actually shrank Ridley, HE SHRANK HIM! Then again, can you come up with a good moveset for Ridley, 'cause I can't.

 

[motsalogeL]

And who exactly cares if you can come up with a moveset? Seriously all your telling us is that your rude and unoriginal. All your arguments have been used before, if you like I can provide a page that might help you in your future anti-Ridley exploits.

 

[Charizard92]

And who exactly cares if you can come up with a moveset? Seriously all your telling us is that your rude and unoriginal. All your arguments have been used before, if you like I can provide a page that might help you in your future anti-Ridley exploits.

The reason why I can't stop arguing is because of you people insulting me and picking up the argument, even now when I tried to drop it by saying Ridley Prime was right and I was wrong! Will ya stop now!

 

[motsalogeL]

"can you come up with a good moveset for Ridley, 'cause I can't."

And maybe you should try to be a little less rude, especially when you yourself are wrong. As you just admitted then. Maybe we would stop arguing with you if you gave us things to stop arguing with you about, just a thought.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Crazy Ridley-supporters, never change

 

[Charizard92]

"can you come up with a good moveset for Ridley, 'cause I can't."

And maybe you should try to be a little less rude, especially when you yourself are wrong. As you just admitted then. Maybe we would stop arguing with you if you gave us things to stop arguing with you about, just a thought.

I just can't come up with a good moveset that's all. And that means we'll be arguing forever ya little (put insult here)!

 

[motsalogeL]

No you basically said that he coudlnt have a good moveset. So either stop making points you cant even back up or GTFO.

 

[Fawriel]

How about we all shut up and get back on topic, yes?

 

[Charizard92]

Thank you Fawriel. OK, I made a discovery that apparently once the second ally is reached, it loops back to the protagonist. In Brawl, only Legend of Zelda follows the trend and has more than four characters (Pokemon has more, but it threw the trend out the window). Apparently, according to the trend, it goes Protagonist (Link), Ally 1 (Zelda), Antagonist (Ganondorf), Ally 2 (Shiek), and back to Protagonist (Toon Link). This would also explain what Dr. Mario is in Melee as well, as he was the protagonist of his own series.

 

[Phaazoid]

Crazy Ridley-supporters, never change

at least this guy understands us

 

[Blauw]

Charizard92:
I decided to try measuring characters against each other. Looking at a Picture of Bowser compared to Mario in Brawl, Bowser is less than double Mario's size. The Picture you gave me has Bowser more than Double Mario's size, so they aren't entirely off.

This is the 'little Mario', who has yet to eat a Super Mushroom. I'm sure the Mario in Brawl is the bigger version, who has eaten a mushroom (considering his ability to throw fireballs, it should at least be Mushroom'd Mario).

 

[Slifer-san]

How about we all shut up and get back on topic, yes?

Quoted for Truth

 

[lumberheartwood]

Such easy knowledge becoming so complicated. Gee willikers!

Anyway, I think it really depends on the game series to incorporate such fundamentals. I don't think the Yoshi series would actually put baby versions of characters we already have. Some games have exceptions. I think a villain seems more likely or an ally/neutral character is deserving of a spot on the SSB roster since this particular series has no "true" sidekick.

In the case of Mario, I don't think we really can add any more protagainsts since Mario is basically the same person so it seems more fitting to just add additional "major" villains and allies. However, if you really want Paper Mario, for you fanatics, who's for me to say in stopping you.

These patterns of your's work in most games, but main titles and titles that don't have a "true" protagainst are pretty much up for anything in my opinion. Also, you forgot to incorporate the possibility of additional franchises being added to the next SSB game, whether that includes more retro characters, characters from revivals of series on hiatus (that bring in more new characters to continue the story on), and new IPs. Good luck with those then. But its pretty easy to safe, who ever is the main protaganist has the highest shot as being part of the SSB4 roster. After that is up for grabs for any other "important" character.

 

[Charizard92]

Such easy knowledge becoming so complicated. Gee willikers!

Anyway, I think it really depends on the game series to incorporate such fundamentals. I don't think the Yoshi series would actually put baby versions of characters we already have. Some games have exceptions. I think a villain seems more likely or an ally/neutral character is deserving of a spot on the SSB roster since this particular series has no "true" sidekick.

In the case of Mario, I don't think we really can add any more protagainsts since Mario is basically the same person so it seems more fitting to just add additional "major" villains and allies. However, if you really want Paper Mario, for you fanatics, who's for me to say in stopping you.

These patterns of your's work in most games, but main titles and titles that don't have a "true" protagainst are pretty much up for anything in my opinion. Also, you forgot to incorporate the possibility of additional franchises being added to the next SSB game, whether that includes more retro characters, characters from revivals of series on hiatus (that bring in more new characters to continue the story on), and new IPs. Good luck with those then. But its pretty easy to safe, who ever is the main protaganist has the highest shot as being part of the SSB4 roster. After that is up for grabs for any other "important" character.

OK several things

A: Dr. Mario, he was his own separate character in Melee and served as the protagonist. Paper Mario could also fit into the game.
B: the trend is a theory, not a fact, besides there are around four series that go into the exception pile.
1: misc
Current characters: ROB
Reason: the Misc. pile is made up of many unrepresented series right now, and new series will pop up here.
2: Pokemon
Current characters: Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard), Lucario, Jigglypuff
Reason: Pokemon is more popularity based than any other series in smash. Pikachu was the series mascot, and Jigglypuff was famous in the Anime. In Melee, Mewtwo was also famous, along with Pichu just being cute. In Brawl, The most well known starters (the Kanto starters) in different stages in their evolution were used to make the Pokemon Trainer practical. The Trainer himself is possibly Red, the main protagonist in the Kanto region games (Red/Blue/green (in Japan)/Firered/LeafGreen). Lucario was made famous in the 8th movie and was included, along with enough evidence to support the common belief that this Lucario was the one in the Anime (can talk, warps onto the stage, etc.)
3: Fire Emblem
Current Characters: Marth, Ike
Reason: Fire Emblem is one of only two series that doesn't have a consistent cast, so two protagonists were used instead of the pattern
4: Mother/Earthbound
Current Characters: Ness, Lucas
Reason: Mother/EarthBound is the other of two series to have an inconsistent cast, and allows for two protagonist instead of the pattern.

 

[Blauw]

As the input of Toon Link could lead to characters from that serie, like Vaati, so could the adding of Paper Mario lead to new characters from the Paper Mario series. But at the moment, no characters come to mind that only appear in the 'paper world' and not in the other Mario games.
It could lead to whole new series in the Smash games (Paper Mario series, Toon LoZ series), although I can't see any serie evolve to that at the moment. This because we wouldn't want Toon Zelda, Toon Shiek and Toon Ganondorf, just as we don't want Paper Luigi, Paper Peach and Paper Bowser. It's would probably be clones, or have alot in common with their non-Toon/Paper versions.

A character like Vaati could best just be placed in the LoZ series, to have an enemy for TLink. This breaks the pattern, as Vaati is considered an enemy, and not an ally. But this should be an exception, because a original character like Vaati should be put in instead of a clone of Zelda/Sheik.

 

[lumberheartwood]

Like I said, easy calculations gone completely philosophical and harder than physics.

We'll just get all the characters we can get. Enough said. The patterns work, usually. Alright? That's settled. I'm just saying inconsistencies will always play a big part in games too but I'm glad we're now seeing similarities in the formulas for how characters were chosen, not counting limitations on the disc.

 

[Patsie]

As for the 3rd party // vague oldschool games that Nintendo tosses some characters into per series, I'm still surprised that Mega Man wasn't included in Brawl.

Maybe it's because I played it a lot and other people didn't? I don't know, he just seems like the next most viable representative after Sonic (I think he should've been in above Snake, at least).

 

[lumberheartwood]

Actually, I think Sega struck a deal with Nintendo about this. If they did Mario and Sonics at the Olympics, Sonic would also have to be in Brawl too. Makes sense. Plus, Sakurai wanted to please the fanbase who voted for Sonic as the most requested character for Brawl. Snake was put in because he fit into Nintendo's world of crazy characters, had history with Nintendo, and the creator of the character was good friends with Sakurai.

I don't think Sakurai wanted to approach people about the game, seeming desperate, but instead only put 3rd party characters in if other companies asked him to. It does take a lot of compromise to use somebody else's copyright(s). So yeah, basically Capcom screwed themselves over for not begging for their character to be in the number 1 Nintendo "advertisement" in the world.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Now that the owner of this thread is unbanned, I think I've put off replying to this topic again long enough.

Still, Trophies aren't good examples, get that through your skull.

And why should I if you can't tell me why? You said trophies are almost all the same size, but that's not true.

There is a list on the Smash wiki, you can argue there. http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Clone the link.

When I run out of fuel for a good argument, I get reasons that are faultier.

Look, I'm not that concerned about the whole luigified/clone thing, and I'm certainly not going to get involved in some wiki article about it. If people want to think things like Toon Link not being a clone, they can.

I was excluding Omega Ridley from the group genius!

Yes. I see that, but why were you excluding him? Do you simply disregard something if it doesn't fall in your favor?

In your chart, Ridley's head is around 1.5X Samus' height, IN YOUR OWN GRAPH! That is how you accidentally helped me, because I found that with your graph.

Oh. I thought you were still talking about Metroid Prime 3. Still, his overall body is no bigger than Bowser's in the graph, so the size of his head doesn't really hinder him in this case, and it only looks like his head is around 1.5X Samus' height because his mouth is wide open in the picture.

Finally, to end it all, I decided to take a look at Ridley myself. I admit, I was kinda wrong on the details, namely since his wings and tail did make him look bigger. The main reason why I'm still arguing is because You're still arguing.

Heh. Very well.

I posted earlier that I did some measuring against Brawl Lucario and it looks like he isn't that big. I measured with Samus and it turned out that Sakurai actually shrank Ridley, HE SHRANK HIM!

No he didn't. Ridley's much larger in Brawl than he ever was in Melee, so Sakurai basically did the opposite.

And like I said, it would be pointless to shrink a character if he was only intended to be a boss to begin with. Smaller size would mean less blind spots, which are what make bosses bosses.

Then again, can you come up with a good moveset for Ridley, 'cause I can't.

Well, I once made a Meta-Ridley moveset way back when, but I don't have it anymore. Someone did make a good moveset for regular Ridley here at one point though, but it's a huge wall of text, so unless you have a big attention span, I doubt you'd read it all.

And, I never meant for the flaming from others to occur, so I'm sorry that happened.

Crazy Ridley-supporters, never change

Heh. You'd be surprised...

I'm pretty fickle myself.

OK several things

2: Pokemon
Current characters: Pikachu, Pokemon Trainer (Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard), Lucario, Jigglypuff

Reason: Pokemon is more popularity based than any other series in smash. Pikachu was the series mascot, and Jigglypuff was famous in the Anime.

Mewtwo was even more famous in the anime (had 2 of his own movies, and unlike Lucario, did not die in the end), so by that, he should've been one of the "current" characters as well.

In Melee, Mewtwo was also famous, along with Pichu just being cute.

If cuteness was the only reason Pichu got added in the previous installment to begin with, then that's kinda sad , but whatever.

 

[Charizard92]

Now that the owner of this thread is unbanned, I think I've put off replying to this topic again long enough.


And why should I if you can't tell me why? You said trophies are almost all the same size, but that's not true.


Look, I'm not that concerned about the whole luigified/clone thing, and I'm certainly not going to get involved in some wiki article about it. If people want to think things like Toon Link not being a clone, they can.


Yes. I see that, but why were you excluding him? Do you simply disregard something if it doesn't fall in your favor?


Oh. I thought you were still talking about Metroid Prime 3. Still, his overall body is no bigger than Bowser's in the graph, so the size of his head doesn't really hinder him in this case, and it only looks like his head is around 1.5X Samus' height because his mouth is wide open in the picture.


Heh. Very well.


No he didn't. Ridley's much larger in Brawl than he ever was in Melee, so Sakurai basically did the opposite.

And like I said, it would be pointless to shrink a character if he was only intended to be a boss to begin with. Smaller size would mean less blind spots, which are what make bosses bosses.


Well, I once made a Meta-Ridley moveset way back when, but I don't have it anymore. Someone did make a good moveset for regular Ridley here at one point though, but it's a huge wall of text, so unless you have a big attention span, I doubt you'd read it all.

And, I never meant for the flaming from others to occur, so I'm sorry that happened.


Heh. You'd be surprised...

I'm pretty fickle myself.


Mewtwo was even more famous in the anime (had 2 of his own movies, and unlike Lucario, did not die in the end), so by that, he should've been one of the "current" characters as well.


If cuteness was the only reason Pichu got added in the previous installment to begin with, then that's kinda sad , but whatever.

Because they are inaccurately sized for one. I've tried to take pictures of PT and his Pokemon from the trophies, and it was horrid. PT's trophy is bigger than Charizard's which isn't much bigger than Ivysaur's. I've gave up on that one, so if PT and his Pokemon's trophies are disproportioned, imagine how disproportioned Ridley's tropy is to Samus'

OK, fine with me, just putting that there to inform you.

I knew Omega Ridley would be disproportional to the other Ridley forms, so I knew that Omega Ridley would be more of the exception due to the mutation he has undergone.

It was nose to back of head, not bottom to top. If that was the case then yes, that is true, but it was a different measurement.

At least you're not rubbing it in.

I checked the head measurement against Samus in boss battles, and Ridley's head is 1x Samus' height from nose to back. So he was shrunk FROM HIS OWN SERIES and not from Melee. The point of doing that I don't get either.

Congrats (non sarcasm), I had trouble doing that and got flamed for it.

That is a problem you know

Mewtwo WAS supposed to be in Brawl believe it or not. Hackers have found Data for Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario, but for some reason, possibly out of time constraints (I know, it sounds ironic but it was the likely suspect) he was left out, making him the only non-clone to be left out of Brawl.

That's the only reason I can come up with.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Because they are inaccurately sized for one. I've tried to take pictures of PT and his Pokemon from the trophies, and it was horrid. PT's trophy is bigger than Charizard's which isn't much bigger than Ivysaur's. I've gave up on that one, so if PT and his Pokemon's trophies are disproportioned, imagine how disproportioned Ridley's tropy is to Samus'

Okay. You've convinced me about the trophies now. Point taken.

It was nose to back of head, not bottom to top. If that was the case then yes, that is true, but it was a different measurement.

I checked the head measurement against Samus in boss battles, and Ridley's head is 1x Samus' height from nose to back. So he was shrunk FROM HIS OWN SERIES and not from Melee. The point of doing that I don't get either.

Oh, okay. I was talking about Melee when I said he wasn't shrunk, but now I see where you're coming from.

At least you're not rubbing it in.

Rubbing things in isn't my style.

Mewtwo WAS supposed to be in Brawl believe it or not. Hackers have found Data for Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario, but for some reason, possibly out of time constraints (I know, it sounds ironic but it was the likely suspect) he was left out, making him the only non-clone to be left out of Brawl.

Yeah. I heard about that. Then people started having hopes for downloadable character content, until Sakurai mentioned in some interview that there would be none.

I doubt it was because of time constraints that Mewtwo, Roy, and the Doc were not in though, because Brawl got delayed from December 3rd, to February 10th, and then to March 9th... They had plenty of time, but decided to scrap those 3 during production for some reason. I don't know what it was they were working on during the delays (definitely not just translating, as it doesn't take a whole month to do that), but I guess the inclusion of characters (or rather, likeable characters from the previous game) wasn't one of their highest priorities.

That's the only reason I can come up with.

I figured as much. It's the only reason I can think why Pichu was put in too, but still. That's a dumb reason for a character to be included. If they had to have a Pika clone in SSBM, Raichu would've made a lot more sense.