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Character Idea Submission Thread

0RLY

A great conversation filler at bars and parties
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Temple University, Philadelphia
Yoshi
optional djc like ness & lucas
can jump out of shield

up-B -> Yoshi bomb
Yoshi's aerial up-B functions as if he were grounded. Yoshi jumps up with an active hitbox before slamming down. Similar to Kirby's final cutter. No other changes aside from maybe kb angle or growth or damage. This gives Yoshi an actual recovery move as well as an attack Yoshi could possibly use to land star KOs after a uair. Grabs ledges facing backwards.

side-b -> Egg toss
Yoshi's default egg throw angle becomes more similar to D3's but a tad higher. Yoshi can angle his egg toss direction like D3 can angle his waddles, but in more angle. Eggs only explode on contact with the stage or a character. The hop is now more like a float.

down-b -> Egg Roll
Armored so that weak attacks do not knock Yoshi out. Chargeable like Sonic's spindash. Yoshi can jump during the Egg Roll but remains in the egg. The egg breaks upon hitting the stage from the air or by pressing B at any time. Yoshi can also double jump during an aerial Egg Roll if it was started in the air, however the jump is significantly smaller. Egg Roll travels horizontally significantly faster, like Sonic's spindash and Puff's rollout do.

b -> Egg lay
If yoshi performs Egg Toss next to someone in an egg, Yoshi throws them instead of his own Egg.
 

Jandlebars

Still fallin'!
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Jan 11, 2013
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126
Location
VIC, Australia
Yoshi
optional djc like ness & lucas
can jump out of shield

up-B -> Yoshi bomb
Yoshi's aerial up-B functions as if he were grounded. Yoshi jumps up with an active hitbox before slamming down. Similar to Kirby's final cutter. No other changes aside from maybe kb angle or growth or damage. This gives Yoshi an actual recovery move as well as an attack Yoshi could possibly use to land star KOs after a uair. Grabs ledges facing backwards.

side-b -> Egg toss
Yoshi's default egg throw angle becomes more similar to D3's but a tad higher. Yoshi can angle his egg toss direction like D3 can angle his waddles, but in more angle. Eggs only explode on contact with the stage or a character. The hop is now more like a float.

down-b -> Egg Roll
Armored so that weak attacks do not knock Yoshi out. Chargeable like Sonic's spindash. Yoshi can jump during the Egg Roll but remains in the egg. The egg breaks upon hitting the stage from the air or by pressing B at any time. Yoshi can also double jump during an aerial Egg Roll if it was started in the air, however the jump is significantly smaller. Egg Roll travels horizontally significantly faster, like Sonic's spindash and Puff's rollout do.

b -> Egg lay
If yoshi performs Egg Toss next to someone in an egg, Yoshi throws them instead of his own Egg.
I quite like all of this. Moving his Egg Toss to Forward B, with his Bomb being moved to Up B, is interesting, especially with the proposed extra lift he'd get from the Bomb. I'm not sure if it would feel 'off' or not (in regards to muscle memory, anyway), but people would probably get used to it eventually.
While I was reading your post, though, I somehow started wondering if Egg Toss would be too good a move if the breaking of the egg caused a 'shrapnel' effect, that does extra damage, and possibly with no extra knock-back.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
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something that just popped into my head:

what if ic's had seperate nana tilts (maybe jabs). like, they had lower bkb and kbg and were built to extend desynched comboes. like the way their utilt already kind of works, but maybe ftilt could pop the opponent with a doc dtilt angle and dtilt could work something like ddd ftilt. i dunno, it seems cool in my head.

could do some coding magic so that opponents can't just be chaingrabbed to death by ic's, but then allow you do do cool comboes and then finish with fthrow to fsmash or something.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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Portland, OR
I've always thought it'd be interesting if Yoshi's Egg Lay popped the opponent out in a tumble state rather then neutral fall. Opinions?
 

SunJester

Smash Ace
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Jan 31, 2013
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North of the Wall
Ice Climbers
I think the key to balancing the IC's is just to buff SoPo. If you give the two of them together more tricks, more infinites might arise, its much safer to keep things at the Melee standard. (Whether or not Wobbling belongs in the game is going to be a massive debate in itself)

If they gave SoPo an enhanced recovery (maybe able to use Up-B multiple times to make it something akin to Mario's Cape might help), make his moves (solo wise) have better killing power, and some decent solo comboing with some of his air moves, I think he'd be less crappy.

Lets not forget that IC's were B tier in Melee, and they are no slouch in that game at all.

Yoshi
I'm pretty sure I saw this already in an old video, but if Yoshi's side-b refreshed his jump like CF and Ganon's down-b, that'd help him a lot. It'd give him even the slightest reason to use that awful Side-B of his. His neutral-b needs to be longer, and not let the person break out of the egg instantly. I think the rest of Yoshi in Melee should be fairly easy to balance, I don't think something as drastic as changing where his specials are (switching up-b to side-b) is needed.

I do, however, like the idea of his eggs only exploding on contact with a person, or the stage in some way. I'd like to expand on it by saying it would be neat if he could choose to explode his eggs slightly sooner (perhaps with another B press) giving him some better spacing options with it. If the eggs had a larger explosion, it might give him some options against some more campier opponents.

Olimar
Regarding his Pikmin, I think him being limited to five (one of each pikmin) would be very interesting for the character. If each Pikmin had different "stats" and he was able to switch between them fairly quickly (lets say Down-B or Neutral B if all the pikmin were out) it would create a very different kind of character dynamic.

Red - Standard
Yellow - Higher Angles
Blue - Lower Angles
Purple - Slower but more powerful
White - More damage less KB

Just as an idea, I'm sure they could be a lot more interesting then that.

To change his Brawl playstyle (from what I understand he's the campiest camp that ever camped) it would be fine for the character if it took him a while to pluck all the Pikmin. If it took him somewhere between Samus's charge shot and DK's giant punch to pull them all out, it would make the player at least THINK about throwing the pikmin at the enemy and slowing down his spamming. Due to this, he'd have to start with all his Pikmin out already.

Olimar also desperately needs a new Up-B. I'm thinking something along the lines of Mario or Luigi's, something quick and fast without too much start up lag. If he did have a new move the pikmin could launch him upwards, perhaps he could step on one of their heads to jump (if he does, please kill the pikmin he does it to, it would be hilarious.) Stalling with down-b would be nice.

His recovery doesn't have to be great, and being around Marth's level would be just fine. Being stuck with just a tether recovery wouldn't be great for the character in the long run, he doesn't have the tricks that the other tether recover-ers have.

Also, no super armor on down-b, of course.
 

Sync8699

Smash Cadet
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May 18, 2012
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Project MN (Minneapolis)
Quite the opposite.

Shield eating Tornado. Some of the fastest attacks in the game, with transcendant priority on all of them. 5 midair jumps, 4 special moves and a glide not only making his recovery ridiculously safe, unpredictable and a pain in the *** to edgeguard, but when combined with his aerials give him an unrivaled edgeguarding game. Can pull off nice combos and Isn't easily comboed himself due to his light weight. Now on top of all that, add him to a faster, more offensive environment reminiscent of Melee.

The PMBR tried leaving Meta Knight as he was, and not surprisingly, he still dominated the rest of the cast since his character design was too perfect for a Melee environment. He'll definitely be revamped, hopefully with the spirit and feel of the character still in tact. Meta Knight is supposed to be this strong and badass character that not even DDD wants to **** with. We still wanna reflect that in his gameplay, not make make him completely suck.
By not change him much I mean retain some of his Brawl properties that other characters no longer have. For instance, SHFFLing with Meta Knight should feel just like it does in Brawl - floaty enough that it's slower and more like Sheik's/Samus' than Fox's/Falco's. This is will limit his combos along the ground. With his floatiness retained, he'll have less mobility in the air, reminiscent of Kirby in Melee, making him have to rely on timing his aerials instead of spacing. The feel of him will be perfectly intact, but with every other character now moving faster some of his previous strengths will become weaknesses.

His specials will no longer be as safe, since characters can zero in on Meta Knight's ending location faster overall. Without auto-edge-grabbing, players who miss the sweet spot with any of MK's specials will be punished harder than before. Assuming the makers of P:M add light-shielding eventually, some of his "shield-eating" effects will be negated as well. I'm curious though...are there videos of MK in Project M? You say they already tried him and he was broken...I'd like to see videos if you know of any.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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Don't you think them being helpless in the egg is enough?
I suppose so, I was thinking back to when the Yoshi builds had substantially faster release from the egg state, but the range and speed of egg lay was much better. I thought it would be interesting because it would make egg lay essentially an extended tech chase, first the egg and then the release, as they can control their movement in both states but have limited options so it becomes a prediction/read based scenario.
 

PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP

Hologram Summer Again
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Olimar
Regarding his Pikmin, I think him being limited to five (one of each pikmin) would be very interesting for the character. If each Pikmin had different "stats" and he was able to switch between them fairly quickly (lets say Down-B or Neutral B if all the pikmin were out) it would create a very different kind of character dynamic.

Red - Standard
Yellow - Higher Angles
Blue - Lower Angles
Purple - Slower but more powerful
White - More damage less KB

Just as an idea, I'm sure they could be a lot more interesting then that.

To change his Brawl playstyle (from what I understand he's the campiest camp that ever camped) it would be fine for the character if it took him a while to pluck all the Pikmin. If it took him somewhere between Samus's charge shot and DK's giant punch to pull them all out, it would make the player at least THINK about throwing the pikmin at the enemy and slowing down his spamming. Due to this, he'd have to start with all his Pikmin out already.

Olimar also desperately needs a new Up-B. I'm thinking something along the lines of Mario or Luigi's, something quick and fast without too much start up lag. If he did have a new move the pikmin could launch him upwards, perhaps he could step on one of their heads to jump (if he does, please kill the pikmin he does it to, it would be hilarious.) Stalling with down-b would be nice.

His recovery doesn't have to be great, and being around Marth's level would be just fine. Being stuck with just a tether recovery wouldn't be great for the character in the long run, he doesn't have the tricks that the other tether recover-ers have.

Also, no super armor on down-b, of course.
Olimar isn't exactly the "campiest camp that ever camped." In brawl he can camp with projectiles that have really high priority and a bunch of reliable kill moves that don't require him to move, however, Olimar has a strong aerial game, something which provides a foundation for the P:M team to base P:M Olimar off of.
Making a pikmin pluck move that takes forever is way too much of a nerf, along with nerfing whistle armor. Olimar can do almost nothing when he's being juggled with no pikmin, and not having whistle armor to get to the ground and a slower pluck speed on the ground would destroy his viability. On the contrary, having guaranteed pikmin of all five types would be a buff on lots of maps. As for up-b, Olimar's tether is already one of his few weak points, I don't think it needs to change from brawl.
A better way to get Olimar to be more mobile is to nerf knockback and priority from purples on his broken f-smash and d-smash, or nerf pikmin latch damage to try to eliminate the camp zone that Olimar has on the ground, and get him more up in the air with his enjoyable air game.
With a blue pikmin, Olimar has a pretty OP grab game, but it's not strong enough with the other colors that it deserves to be nerfed.
However, maybe P:M needs a campy character just for the lulz. Now that the rest of the cast is more mobile, maybe Olimar won't be as effective.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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Olimar is easy and fun to design for, but a huge pain in the ass to try and code. Like Ice Climbers, Olimar is more of a technical hurdle rather then a design or balance one. I've heard tons of creative and good ideas for the character, I remember the design they had in mind was awesome but they were waiting for someone to figure out how to code it. Hope they do, as he has tons of unique mechanics that would be really interesting to see explored, it'd be a shame if he ends up just being a buffed version of his Brawl self.
 

Airrider

Smash Apprentice
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A swedish island.
I like SunJesters jump refresh idea with yoshis side-b (just make sure he cant infinite jump lol). Also, maybe his up-b should send him a bit upwards in the air. Maybe his down-b should be jump cancellable.

Just a note though: i hate Yoshi.

I'm not sure about this but, after the metagame has developed a bit, maybe you should try to nerf some of the certain top tiers (falco, fox, sheik etc.) instead of mostly buffing lower tier characters. Sure they arent't OP, but neither are Luigi and Zelda.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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I like SunJesters jump refresh idea with yoshis side-b (just make sure he cant infinite jump lol). Also, maybe his up-b should send him a bit upwards in the air. Maybe his down-b should be jump cancellable.

Just a note though: i hate Yoshi.
What would he gain with side-b refreshing his jump though? He already has the best horizontal air speed in the game, he can stall with up-b (which already does give him an upwards hop), if it doesn't go higher vertically (which it shouldn't or he'd fly forever) it helps him horizontally, which he already is good at.

I suppose he could armor through gimp attempts, and would be able to get a second jump after using it and getting hit off stage. It provides a rising recovery as opposed to drifting directly in horizontally, combining it with up-b stalling and breaking the roll early by hitting the side of the stage, he could probably cross underneath some stages to make his recovery less one dimensional.

Hmm, answered my own question, nevermind, consider me a supporter of the idea as it doesn't make his recovery great, but it offers him more options to play with so he has different ways to attempt it and defending against him isn't so mind-numbingly simple.


Down-b shouldn't be jump cancelable, it's already fine, maybe a bowser bomb style cancel on the grounded version, where you can cancel while rising, but once your falling and the hitbox comes out you should be committed. What I would like to see though is aerial control while rising and falling, being able to control the trajectory slightly horizontally rather then it being locked on a fixed path. This would allow you to follow your opponent's movement, alter your path to cross them up, or weave to bait them. This would again be more prediction and read based options for him, which is in my opinion a good thing.
 

humble

Smash Ace
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One interesting thing I'd like to see for Yoshi is egg-shell fragments with hitboxes. Specifically, off of any of his egg based actions, the fragments from the egg shattering would have active hitboxes. So if he is rolling with side-b, when he presses b again to cancel it, the bits of shell exploding off of him represent an active hitbox around Yoshi's body. His up-b already does this, but I think it would be an interesting property to expand upon. For example, the enemy takes damage from egg lay and pops up out of it as it explodes, what if you just made it so instead the damage and pop up were from the egg exploding, which naturally combines with my earlier suggestion of putting them into tumble out of egg lay. Obviously they would need to pop out quicker then they do currently so you can't guarantee easy followups, as that would allow infinites, but it would instead be an interesting extended tech chase scenario. Another interesting one would be on shield drop, as though he can't jump out of shield, he would have an interesting alternative strength to it instead.
 

SunJester

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I'd mostly just hate Olimar to come off as uninspired as he was in Brawl. All you do is run away, throw pikmin, run away more, and then do one of his many kill moves. I think just about any idea would be better then the current brawl form.

It would just be far more interesting if it took more of a queue from the actual Pikmin games, using each one individually for different tasks. That's why I think switching between them quickly would give the character a lot more depth.

Also regarding the slower Pikmin pull up speed being much slower, its not as if he can't pull out a single one quickly. I think a slower speed would stop him from just spamming them everywhere whenever he can, I'm sure a happy medium could be found somewhere between using Pikmin as a usable projectile, and not having them thrown everywhere all the time.

If they do keep the super-armor whistle, they would definitely have to adjust the duration, start up speed etc. To be honest (and I'm aware lots of characters seem to be getting this, and its cliché at this point) it would be interesting to give the whistle shine like aspects. Maybe the whistle could give a quick stun akin to the laser stun off of Falco's gun, and could quickly be cancelled with a jump with a possible follow up in to a f-air or something.



Also I really like the idea of being able to cancel Yoshi's side-b and an egg shell "explosion" coming off of it. It might make his recovery a little easier (I would assume if the side-b jump refresh is still in, he probably still has the end lag from popping out of it, giving him a fair sized hitbox on that would make him less vulnerable in that part)
 

bubbaking

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Wooow, this thread is still going strong..... I'm surprised! :crazy: Just popping in to reply to this:
You know, people like to crap on Toon Link's recovery all the time.

...But Toon Link already can wall jump.
That's because TL's recovery CAN be crapped on. He gets good distance but that doesn't make it good, lolz! :p Having a WJ honestly doesn't say much, if even anything at all. The only chars I can think of that use WJs more than extremely sparsely in their recoveries are Falcon, Sonic, and the wall-clingers (Lucario, Squirtle, Diddy, and Sheik). TL's WJ really isn't that useful for anything outside of a really situational mix-up, IMO. :ohwell:
 

ph00tbag

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The reason Olimar's camping was so powerful in Brawl was because he forced the engagement, and engaging in Brawl has such razor thin timings for it to be effective, and was never safe if you messed up. Not to mention the reward for engaging is usually one or two hits followed by a risky tech trap. Most players just get punished for not being able to execute on punishing Olimar's stuff, let alone not being able to effectively read him on the tech trap. Engaging in Melee is not only more forgiving and safe, but also yields better rewards than in Brawl. Not to mention P:M has powershield reflects, which punish projectile spam without having to engage. All of these things mitigate Olimar's camping.

Honestly, there's not really a problem with Pikmin Toss being Olimar's go-to move, from a strictly aesthetic standpoint. Sagat is all about that Tiger Soul. If you're playing against Dizzy, you know she wants to get Hunger Strike out there. Campy, spammy characters have a place in fighting games, like it or not, because get this: some people like playing those characters. Whether people like playing against them is really a personal issue if the character itself isn't overpowered.

I'd say that if Olimar needs anything as far as balance is concerned, his pikmin needs to be invulnerable during usmash's start-up, so that Olimar can't be stuffed out of usmash by any move in the game when he's trying to use it as an anti-pressure option. It's also prudent to nerf whistle armor by making the window smaller, and making the full move last longer, so there's more reward for timing it and less reward for spamming it. Pluck absolutely should not be slower. Pikmin are Olimar, and nerfing the ability to have Pikmin at all times takes away Olimar's ability to be a character.

As far as more aesthetic changes, I think there should be more incentive and tools for line management. Line management is a big part of high-level Olimar play, but really the rewards are usually not very huge, and the tools are incredibly limited.

Now, this discussion necessitates a bit of a detour into the randomness of Pikmin summons. So there's a bit of a double edged sword here. The randomness of Olimar's Pikmin makes their usefulness dependent on a roll of the dice (or more accurately a cycle of the RNG). If you randomly pluck six whites against Fox, then that sucks for you. In that light, the randomness of the Pikmin can be a huge bane for Olimar if he gets unlucky. The inconsistent effectiveness of Pikmin plucks is what necessitates line management at all. Line management allows the player to turn his line from a useless bunch of Pikmin into a viable gameplan. So that presents a dilemma for people who want to get rid of randomness: If you get rid of it, the most interesting and involved aspect of Olimar is no longer necessary, and Olimar's game becomes even more one-dimensional.

So we can't just get rid of randomness. We have to mitigate it. Brawl did this in two ways. First off, it allowed the player to control which Pikmin were in line at what time by using Whistle, and by throwing away Pikmin he didn't need. Pikmin attacks could also be used to subtly alter the line order. The problem is, this doesn't really provide a full repertoire of line management options. Attacking to change line order is a huge time commitment in a fast-paced fighting game, and killing Pikmin is a slow, painstaking process that leaves Olimar weakened for much longer than necessary. Because Olimar lacked effective methods of certain line-management options, randomness could still hinder Olimar, especially if he plucked a Pikmin that was more a liability in a given match-up than an asset.

So Brawl also employed a second way to make randomness less impactful. It homogenized Pikmin. While Pikmin do have different properties in Brawl, only whites and purples are particularly specialized. Reds, blues and yellows are by and large interchangeable. If you have a yellow next in line but would like a red for the better attack damage, that's okay, because the difference isn't much more than 4% on most attacks (uair being a notable exception). Stuff like that makes it easier to be less worried about the Pikmin that's next in line.

Rather than go with a homogenized Pikmin line and fewer options for line management, I'd rather go with improving Olimar's options for line management, and making it more necessary and rewarding by giving each Pikmin much more specialized roles.

I'll start off with line management:
UpB: Pikmin Footstool - Olimar footstools off of one of his Pikmin, killing it in the process. This isn't really my idea. It's been floating around a while, and I realize that it's pretty much impossible to implement by having Olimar literally jump off one of his Pikmin, but I do think it should be possible to make it look like that's what he's doing. What I like about this is that it can be done such that Olimar can react very quickly after he's performed the jump, allowing him to waveland after a grounded UpB, making farming very quick and safe. Naturally, it also doubles as a recovery move that can be acted out of, but has a cost.

NeutralB: Pluck - The move is no longer useless in the air or with a full line. In either of these situations, rather than pluck a new Pikmin, Olimar rotates the line by one. This is distinct from Whistle because Whistle not only recalls thrown Pikmin, but also always puts them in the same order, with a pre-determined color at the front. Futhermore, extend the utility of smash pluck canceling by allowing the ending lag of pluck to be canceled by any move that uses Pikmin--any of his smashes, grabs, non-neutral aerials, or specials, basically. This makes it much easier to incorporate line management into Olimar's offense, so that he doesn't have to let off the pressure in order to get the Pikmin that he wants.

The rest of Olimar's specials are fine as they are. So what about specializing the Pikmin:

Red Pikmin are Olimar's Attack Damage Pikmin. They do the most damage on normal attacks, but aren't as effective with throw or latch damage, and they have poor health. They also have sub-par knockback growth, beating only Whites in that category. This does make them more effective in combos, however, especially at percents where other Pikmin would be knocking opponents too far. They also have less range and active frames than most Pikmin. Also, usmash and uair are meteors on grounded opponents (dair is always a meteor, so there's also that).

Blue Pikmin are best when throwing opponents. They have mediocre health, and on attacks an latches they have mediocre or even poor knockback, damage and range, but they have the longest grab-range, the second most damaging pummel, and the best knockback and damage on all throws.

Yellow Pikmin are more used for zoning and space control. They have the largest and longest-active hitboxes of all the Pikmin, and the longest range on fsmash. Toss retains the higher arc from Brawl. Otherwise, they have mediocre damage and above average health, and the knockback is best for its low angles.

White Pikmin continue to be the latch DPS Pikmin. They have the worst health, and they have the worst damage and knockback on attacks and throws, and their range is mediocre, but their pummel and latch damage is unparalleled. They also retain their long Toss range.

Purples also continue to be the tanks. They have great health and phenomenal knockback growth. They also have pretty good attack damage, second only to reds. However, they have terrible range, and they aren't great for throws. They continue to just hit opponents when thrown rather than latching.

With these changes, randomness is further mitigated by having many more options to counteract its effects. This allows the properties of the Pikmin to be more specialized, which in turn makes it more necessary for Olimar mains to become more proficient in line management.
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
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Apr 7, 2007
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1,979
I think olimar should be able to change his pikmin line up with A+B+direction (not dissimilar to lucario's aura). for example:
A+B = red in front
A+B back = blue in front
A+B forward = yellow in front
A+B up = white in front
A+B down = purp in front.

That would make his combo game easier and that could open down b to have extra properties (like maybe replace it for his red or purple potions that can stone your enemy or boost up your pikmin).

Also, to make him less spammy and more of a combo character...what about messing around with the idea of making him weigh the same as the spacies or close to it. I feel there might be potential to dynamically change him if he isn't light.
 

Airrider

Smash Apprentice
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Jul 11, 2012
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A swedish island.
Ganon: Make Warlock punch faster (Falcon Punch could also be slightly faster). Buff his nair. Give him a new up-tilt or make it more like Falcons.

Is it just me or is Jigglypuffs rest nerfed? Dunno if it´s because the levels are bigger or something. As long as it´s the same as in melee i don´t care.

Luigi: Higher up-b, being able to "land cancel" his neutral b (though limiting the maximum amount of fireballs on screen).

Just my thoughts.
 

Jandlebars

Still fallin'!
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The reason Olimar's camping was so powerful in Brawl was because he forced the engagement, and engaging in Brawl has such razor thin timings for it to be effective, and was never safe if you messed up. Not to mention the reward for engaging is usually one or two hits followed by a risky tech trap. Most players just get punished for not being able to execute on punishing Olimar's stuff, let alone not being able to effectively read him on the tech trap. Engaging in Melee is not only more forgiving and safe, but also yields better rewards than in Brawl. Not to mention P:M has powershield reflects, which punish projectile spam without having to engage. All of these things mitigate Olimar's camping.

Honestly, there's not really a problem with Pikmin Toss being Olimar's go-to move, from a strictly aesthetic standpoint. Sagat is all about that Tiger Soul. If you're playing against Dizzy, you know she wants to get Hunger Strike out there. Campy, spammy characters have a place in fighting games, like it or not, because get this: some people like playing those characters. Whether people like playing against them is really a personal issue if the character itself isn't overpowered.

I'd say that if Olimar needs anything as far as balance is concerned, his pikmin needs to be invulnerable during usmash's start-up, so that Olimar can't be stuffed out of usmash by any move in the game when he's trying to use it as an anti-pressure option. It's also prudent to nerf whistle armor by making the window smaller, and making the full move last longer, so there's more reward for timing it and less reward for spamming it. Pluck absolutely should not be slower. Pikmin are Olimar, and nerfing the ability to have Pikmin at all times takes away Olimar's ability to be a character.

As far as more aesthetic changes, I think there should be more incentive and tools for line management. Line management is a big part of high-level Olimar play, but really the rewards are usually not very huge, and the tools are incredibly limited.

Now, this discussion necessitates a bit of a detour into the randomness of Pikmin summons. So there's a bit of a double edged sword here. The randomness of Olimar's Pikmin makes their usefulness dependent on a roll of the dice (or more accurately a cycle of the RNG). If you randomly pluck six whites against Fox, then that sucks for you. In that light, the randomness of the Pikmin can be a huge bane for Olimar if he gets unlucky. The inconsistent effectiveness of Pikmin plucks is what necessitates line management at all. Line management allows the player to turn his line from a useless bunch of Pikmin into a viable gameplan. So that presents a dilemma for people who want to get rid of randomness: If you get rid of it, the most interesting and involved aspect of Olimar is no longer necessary, and Olimar's game becomes even more one-dimensional.

So we can't just get rid of randomness. We have to mitigate it. Brawl did this in two ways. First off, it allowed the player to control which Pikmin were in line at what time by using Whistle, and by throwing away Pikmin he didn't need. Pikmin attacks could also be used to subtly alter the line order. The problem is, this doesn't really provide a full repertoire of line management options. Attacking to change line order is a huge time commitment in a fast-paced fighting game, and killing Pikmin is a slow, painstaking process that leaves Olimar weakened for much longer than necessary. Because Olimar lacked effective methods of certain line-management options, randomness could still hinder Olimar, especially if he plucked a Pikmin that was more a liability in a given match-up than an asset.

So Brawl also employed a second way to make randomness less impactful. It homogenized Pikmin. While Pikmin do have different properties in Brawl, only whites and purples are particularly specialized. Reds, blues and yellows are by and large interchangeable. If you have a yellow next in line but would like a red for the better attack damage, that's okay, because the difference isn't much more than 4% on most attacks (uair being a notable exception). Stuff like that makes it easier to be less worried about the Pikmin that's next in line.

Rather than go with a homogenized Pikmin line and fewer options for line management, I'd rather go with improving Olimar's options for line management, and making it more necessary and rewarding by giving each Pikmin much more specialized roles.

I'll start off with line management:
UpB: Pikmin Footstool - Olimar footstools off of one of his Pikmin, killing it in the process. This isn't really my idea. It's been floating around a while, and I realize that it's pretty much impossible to implement by having Olimar literally jump off one of his Pikmin, but I do think it should be possible to make it look like that's what he's doing. What I like about this is that it can be done such that Olimar can react very quickly after he's performed the jump, allowing him to waveland after a grounded UpB, making farming very quick and safe. Naturally, it also doubles as a recovery move that can be acted out of, but has a cost.

NeutralB: Pluck - The move is no longer useless in the air or with a full line. In either of these situations, rather than pluck a new Pikmin, Olimar rotates the line by one. This is distinct from Whistle because Whistle not only recalls thrown Pikmin, but also always puts them in the same order, with a pre-determined color at the front. Futhermore, extend the utility of smash pluck canceling by allowing the ending lag of pluck to be canceled by any move that uses Pikmin--any of his smashes, grabs, non-neutral aerials, or specials, basically. This makes it much easier to incorporate line management into Olimar's offense, so that he doesn't have to let off the pressure in order to get the Pikmin that he wants.

The rest of Olimar's specials are fine as they are. So what about specializing the Pikmin:

Red Pikmin are Olimar's Attack Damage Pikmin. They do the most damage on normal attacks, but aren't as effective with throw or latch damage, and they have poor health. They also have sub-par knockback growth, beating only Whites in that category. This does make them more effective in combos, however, especially at percents where other Pikmin would be knocking opponents too far. They also have less range and active frames than most Pikmin. Also, usmash and uair are meteors on grounded opponents (dair is always a meteor, so there's also that).

Blue Pikmin are best when throwing opponents. They have mediocre health, and on attacks an latches they have mediocre or even poor knockback, damage and range, but they have the longest grab-range, the second most damaging pummel, and the best knockback and damage on all throws.

Yellow Pikmin are more used for zoning and space control. They have the largest and longest-active hitboxes of all the Pikmin, and the longest range on fsmash. Toss retains the higher arc from Brawl. Otherwise, they have mediocre damage and above average health, and the knockback is best for its low angles.

White Pikmin continue to be the latch DPS Pikmin. They have the worst health, and they have the worst damage and knockback on attacks and throws, and their range is mediocre, but their pummel and latch damage is unparalleled. They also retain their long Toss range.

Purples also continue to be the tanks. They have great health and phenomenal knockback growth. They also have pretty good attack damage, second only to reds. However, they have terrible range, and they aren't great for throws. They continue to just hit opponents when thrown rather than latching.

With these changes, randomness is further mitigated by having many more options to counteract its effects. This allows the properties of the Pikmin to be more specialized, which in turn makes it more necessary for Olimar mains to become more proficient in line management.
You really sound like you know what you're talking about here ph00t, and I think all these changes sound pretty good for Oli.

Do you think any changes to the rest of Olimar's moveset (ie. his aerials, tilts, etc) would be wise? I never actually played as him much myself, which is why I'm curious.
 

ph00tbag

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Get rid of his weird as hell hitboxes on the non-Pikmin moves, and make them all make some degree of sense.

But that's really a no-brainer.
 

roymaster803

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Recently watched a speedrun of Super Metroid just to get some history of Samus and for fun. I understand where you all get your ideas from, but I have to say Samus is a darn fine character as she is now. She really just needs some fixes and tweaks to her moveset. Maybe a changed animation here or there, but nothing as drastic or new as what I've seen posted above and on previous pages.

Charged Shot being chargeable in air would be a great asset to have for Samus' camp game. If she were able to keep momentum while charging it would be more useful and maybe even open up some new combo tricks. Also the recoil Samus gets from uncharged shots in air should be taken out. I don't see why her momentum should cancel from such a little shot. They don't in the games so why in PM? Keep the fully charged recoil just not the uncharged. No recoil would mean you can keep your momentum and still fire a shot so following up is now an option. Missiles should not be her only ranged approach option. That is really the biggest change I can see Samus needing other than fixing jab.

I think super missile would be better if they always explode after being hit with an attack as opposed to clanking and vanishing. This way they can still be destroyed with Fair and stuff, but with more risk to the approaching character. It should help Samus space better than before. That way super missile would feel more super and be more threatening without being too powerful. homing missiles are fine they do their job well. Please remember the opposing foe can still jump, spot dodge, block, reflect and still get to Samus so this in no way breaks super missile it just changes how you have to deal with them.

I still think morph bombs should have more hitstun so that bomb jump to aerial is more effective at close range. This would be nice for Samus who has been known to have trouble when an opponent is in her face like Fox.

Better jab. Make the hitbox better on the first hit by making it larger so it covers more area and give it a better angle so it transfers to the second hit with more ease. Not sure what frame the first jab comes out on, but it needs to be quick. 3 frames is the standard I believe.

F-smash could use a power buff. Just enough to be a kill move after you rack up damage. Say it kills around 90%.

(optional) Would be nice if Fair and U-smash had transcendent priority since they are fiery explosions. makes them better options when foes are close. Also U-smash might benefit if the first couple of hits started out in different locations. This gives the moves more use against shorter opponents like Kirby or jiggs. The starting point might do better if it were directly in front of Samus. The second hit would be moved to the original spot of the first hit. Knockback should be adjusted accordingly.

(Aesthetic Changes) U-throw: Change animation so that Samus lifts the foe up and then shoots them as opposed to her rope throw thing she does. The team could simply keep the first part of the animation and just edit the end so that it's an explosion instead of electric rope magic. I never really understood how the tether made them fly up any way.

After Image effect from Super Metroid: after running for a short while Samus gets the after image effect on her run, dash attack, and dash jump. As a little nod to Super Metroid's speed boots.
 

Sarix

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The problem with Samus's Fair and Usmash isn't really priority so much as they're both easy to DI and SDI out of; so while transcendent priority will make it easier to hit with them it won't remedy how easy they are to escape. If anything those two moves just need the hitbox linking fixed and/or maybe a bit of a vaccum effect even though it wouldn't make a lot of sense with explosions. Other than that she just needs to be able to combo without having to rely on her grab as the only means for a guaranteed starter, she has plenty of filler options but incredibly few starters.

Considering the development team wants P:M to slightly favor aggression, if Samus stays as just a keepaway zoner she will likely face problems with the characters who can now play more aggressively given her lack of OoS options and limited reversal options. I don't think Samus should get a massive overhaul but I feel it would make her a more dynamic character to be able to use her projectiles outside of just defensive play for things such as mix-up situations. Other than that having at least average to above average horizontal air speed to balance out her floatiness and make her aerials safer to use for approaching.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong for thinking Samus doesn't need to be changed much. But at least in my opinion since she was in the bottom of C-Tier in Melee, which in just about any other fighting game means the character is passable at best competitively, it's not unreasonable for people to think she needs changes beyond just minor tweaks.
 

ClinkStryphart

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I think samus would be fine. She shouldn't be as floaty as she is in brawl though make her like how she was in melee and give samus her 64 dair. Do something for Samus like how Ness was tweaked to be a hell of a lot better. just my 2cents. Maybe make samus's one taunt where the gun changes maybe do a different element of attack? idk just throwing out ideas.
 

Sarix

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Samus's floatiness in Brawl is mostly just from EVERYONE being much floatier in that engine so it pretty much was exaggerated lol. Her 64 dair is a good idea though.
 

himemiya

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Iceclimber

up-b (dual) - get rid of the tether and make it so you get complete control of which directions to move (ex: ic2 moves downward then ic moves upward), if the ic2 happen to aim torwards to the ledge then it should be able to grab it.

down b - same as brawl please

b - hammer having an hitbox and when the ice shards get really tiny it should 1% dmg

copy/paste from sm
posting my opinions on what should stay and what needs tweaking.

what should stay the same

d-throw (even though chain grabbing to death is a stupid mechanic its d-throw should stay the same at least)

nair (with the heavy gravity it can be used as a gimp tool)

uair (mostly cause of the fact it can overpowed most attack)

down-b (its obivous)

recovery (range wide reasons but take the tether part out)

up-tilt (it connect)

Tweak Ideas

Dash (maybe give it the same treatment as you guys did with lucario's dash)

side b (together be its melee original and single its brawl distance (as it where together) and doesn't go into a special fall)

recovery (single)(distance as falco second jump?)

neutral b (beable to get hit by the hammer and the projectile do the same damage)

What should be brought by from melee

dair (also give it some armor)

The ability to take on opponents with just one iceclimber (if a melee iceclimber was on its own it could have a good shot at surviving but if a brawl iceclimber was on its owns it'll die in a matter of seconds)

Even if I come out as a e-douche that shouldn't could you mind about my ideas , so yeah hope you guys like them.
Yoshi
its airdodge should be able to side b (ex: airdodge to hookshot ledge). I know they're planning on keeping that vbrawl upb boost and make it so its side-b can refresh a jump (I wouldn't imagine why they wouldn't) and they should make it so it can react out side-b like 40% quicker. 2nd jump>up-b>airdodge>side-b>3rd jump>up-b>airdodge if they make it like that yoshi's recovery can be good as everyone elses. I seen the old vids of pm yoshi and notice they make it his n64 u-tilt, I hope its also can eat through attacks like it did back then.
 

666blaziken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
419
Iceclimber

up-b (dual) - get rid of the tether and make it so you get complete control of which directions to move (ex: ic2 moves downward then ic moves upward), if the ic2 happen to aim torwards to the ledge then it should be able to grab it.

down b - same as brawl please

b - hammer having an hitbox and when the ice shards get really tiny it should 1% dmg

copy/paste from sm
posting my opinions on what should stay and what needs tweaking.

what should stay the same

d-throw (even though chain grabbing to death is a stupid mechanic its d-throw should stay the same at least)

nair (with the heavy gravity it can be used as a gimp tool)

uair (mostly cause of the fact it can overpowed most attack)

down-b (its obivous)

recovery (range wide reasons but take the tether part out)

up-tilt (it connect)

Tweak Ideas

Dash (maybe give it the same treatment as you guys did with lucario's dash)

side b (together be its melee original and single its brawl distance (as it where together) and doesn't go into a special fall)

recovery (single)(distance as falco second jump?)

neutral b (beable to get hit by the hammer and the projectile do the same damage)

What should be brought by from melee

dair (also give it some armor)

The ability to take on opponents with just one iceclimber (if a melee iceclimber was on its own it could have a good shot at surviving but if a brawl iceclimber was on its owns it'll die in a matter of seconds)

Even if I come out as a e-douche that shouldn't could you mind about my ideas , so yeah hope you guys like them.
Yoshi
its airdodge should be able to side b (ex: airdodge to hookshot ledge). I know they're planning on keeping that vbrawl upb boost and make it so its side-b can refresh a jump (I wouldn't imagine why they wouldn't) and they should make it so it can react out side-b like 40% quicker. 2nd jump>up-b>airdodge>side-b>3rd jump>up-b>airdodge if they make it like that yoshi's recovery can be good as everyone elses. I seen the old vids of pm yoshi and notice they make it his n64 u-tilt, I hope its also can eat through attacks like it did back then.
Good ideas: I was thinking that the ice climbers should also have the ability to switch characters with a taunt or something. Like if popo has taken heavy damage, switch to nana. If she didn't take any damage throughout the game then the damage counter would be 0%
 

DJLO

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ok so regarding metaknight:. take away anything broken from vbrawl(infinite cape), take away all that transcendant priority( i dont even totally understand this but i know it makes him better), make his tornado hit people away instead of vacuuming in. and then maybe just lop off 1% from each of his attacks.

keep him a flyer and a quick dude, but remove his kill-ability.

p.s. i dont think a mega thread is the best idea since its really hard to search, we should just have sub-forums for each unreleased character
 

IceDX

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bring back LUCARIOS guaranteed fair to side b =( =( =( at least to some extent having it work only if they are unaware of it is depressing......



metaknight should be top tier level in PM imo
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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Oct 26, 2012
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Why should Meta Knight be top tier? I doubt he will be bad considering his design.
 

IceDX

Smash Ace
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maybe not top but at the very least make him so he can fight even with fox/falco/sheik

i think hes down b should be able to cancel into anything
 

Snu?

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
23
So far, I've been very impressed about a lot of the game mechanics and features that have been implemented/modified in P:M.

Not so big on the ideas front, but more of what I expect. As far as upcoming characters goes, let's see. The characters that have yet to be implemented are ICs, Olimar, Kirby, Yoshi, Metaknight and Samus. I have faith in the dev. team, as they have done a fantastic job thus far with the characters. I expect Melee vets to be very similar to their Melee designs (except Kirby), and for Metaknight to not have crazy priority but to have his moves in tact (maybe with the exception of the tornado - I think they'll change the animation and hitbox data for that move entirely). The only one I'm uncertain with the approach they're going to take is Olimar. HOPEFULLY they take his ability away to throw Pikmin all the way across the stage and modify him in general to discourage super campy play. I'm also very excited to see what they do with Kirby and Metaknight. I have a feeling they'll both be a ton of fun to play. I expect Kirby to be a combination of his 64 and Brawl design.
 

ph00tbag

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The problem with Samus's Fair and Usmash isn't really priority so much as they're both easy to DI and SDI out of; so while transcendent priority will make it easier to hit with them it won't remedy how easy they are to escape. If anything those two moves just need the hitbox linking fixed and/or maybe a bit of a vaccum effect even though it wouldn't make a lot of sense with explosions. Other than that she just needs to be able to combo without having to rely on her grab as the only means for a guaranteed starter, she has plenty of filler options but incredibly few starters.
Usmash's big problem isn't just the lack of linking, it's the long start-up and cooldown, and the move's generally sluggish pace. It just doesn't cover enough space quick enough with enough wiggle-room adequately to either punish with quick start-up, or trap with low cooldown.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, the best improvement I can think of for usmash is for it to hit quickly above and in front of Samus with good knockback, to give Samus a solid, quick anti-air that is safer than SH nair.

Fair doesn't really need to link so much as it needs to be less weak to crouch canceling (but that's not really something that Samus alone has to contend with).

Considering the development team wants P:M to slightly favor aggression, if Samus stays as just a keepaway zoner she will likely face problems with the characters who can now play more aggressively given her lack of OoS options and limited reversal options.
It might be a good idea, acutally, to give Screw Attack a little more knockback on the last hit, so it's safer on hit. Samus is actually already fairly effective oos, but it's pretty frustrating when you successfully bait your opponent into getting too close to your shield, and then get punished because you punished with Screw Attack.

Other than that having at least average to above average horizontal air speed to balance out her floatiness and make her aerials safer to use for approaching.
I dunno about that. Maybe more effective options for chasing platform campers, but her air speed is part of what makes her reliant on her ground game. That's something that really needs to be preserved about Samus.
 

Nkguy01

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Mar 11, 2013
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This is a bit silly...but I always thought it would be interesting if Yoshi's recovery had Yoshi popping out of the egg that he just threw. So that it wouldn't look awkward, he could subtly dissapear in the way that Nana dissapears in melee. Just my $0.02. I think Yoshi's recovery in brawl is somewhat of a good direction as well.
 

Nkguy01

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I think a lot of the trouble with Kirby will be keeping him from playing like jigglypuff in terms of changing the pace of the game in a way that's uninteresting to watch.
 
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