Character Idea Submission Thread

[Nkguy01]

This probably already has been discusses but what are the chances of seeing "face" stocks instead of the dots that are currently in brawl? I think those faces are much more pleasing than dots. Anyway, I don't think it would be impossible as the "face" sprites are visible when on the stage selection screen. Just something I miss from melee.

 

[Nkguy01]

Just hopeful wishing...but I always thought it would be awesome if Samus could change beams by pressing various direcitons of the d-pad. Imagine an ice beam, or a wave beam that could go through stages 0_0

 

[The_NZA]

ph00tbag said: ↑

The reason Olimar's camping was so powerful in Brawl was because he forced the engagement, and engaging in Brawl has such razor thin timings for it to be effective, and was never safe if you messed up. Not to mention the reward for engaging is usually one or two hits followed by a risky tech trap. Most players just get punished for not being able to execute on punishing Olimar's stuff, let alone not being able to effectively read him on the tech trap. Engaging in Melee is not only more forgiving and safe, but also yields better rewards than in Brawl. Not to mention P:M has powershield reflects, which punish projectile spam without having to engage. All of these things mitigate Olimar's camping.

Honestly, there's not really a problem with Pikmin Toss being Olimar's go-to move, from a strictly aesthetic standpoint. Sagat is all about that Tiger Soul. If you're playing against Dizzy, you know she wants to get Hunger Strike out there. Campy, spammy characters have a place in fighting games, like it or not, because get this: some people like playing those characters. Whether people like playing against them is really a personal issue if the character itself isn't overpowered.

I'd say that if Olimar needs anything as far as balance is concerned, his pikmin needs to be invulnerable during usmash's start-up, so that Olimar can't be stuffed out of usmash by any move in the game when he's trying to use it as an anti-pressure option. It's also prudent to nerf whistle armor by making the window smaller, and making the full move last longer, so there's more reward for timing it and less reward for spamming it. Pluck absolutely should not be slower. Pikmin areOlimar, and nerfing the ability to have Pikmin at all times takes away Olimar's ability to be a character.

As far as more aesthetic changes, I think there should be more incentive and tools for line management. Line management is a big part of high-level Olimar play, but really the rewards are usually not very huge, and the tools are incredibly limited.

Now, this discussion necessitates a bit of a detour into the randomness of Pikmin summons. So there's a bit of a double edged sword here. The randomness of Olimar's Pikmin makes their usefulness dependent on a roll of the dice (or more accurately a cycle of the RNG). If you randomly pluck six whites against Fox, then that sucks for you. In that light, the randomness of the Pikmin can be a huge bane for Olimar if he gets unlucky. The inconsistent effectiveness of Pikmin plucks is what necessitates line management at all. Line management allows the player to turn his line from a useless bunch of Pikmin into a viable gameplan. So that presents a dilemma for people who want to get rid of randomness: If you get rid of it, the most interesting and involved aspect of Olimar is no longer necessary, and Olimar's game becomes even more one-dimensional.

So we can't just get rid of randomness. We have to mitigate it. Brawl did this in two ways. First off, it allowed the player to control which Pikmin were in line at what time by using Whistle, and by throwing away Pikmin he didn't need. Pikmin attacks could also be used to subtly alter the line order. The problem is, this doesn't really provide a full repertoire of line management options. Attacking to change line order is a huge time commitment in a fast-paced fighting game, and killing Pikmin is a slow, painstaking process that leaves Olimar weakened for much longer than necessary. Because Olimar lacked effective methods of certain line-management options, randomness could still hinder Olimar, especially if he plucked a Pikmin that was more a liability in a given match-up than an asset.

So Brawl also employed a second way to make randomness less impactful. It homogenized Pikmin. While Pikmin do have different properties in Brawl, only whites and purples are particularly specialized. Reds, blues and yellows are by and large interchangeable. If you have a yellow next in line but would like a red for the better attack damage, that's okay, because the difference isn't much more than 4% on most attacks (uair being a notable exception). Stuff like that makes it easier to be less worried about the Pikmin that's next in line.

Rather than go with a homogenized Pikmin line and fewer options for line management, I'd rather go with improving Olimar's options for line management, and making it more necessary and rewarding by giving each Pikmin much more specialized roles.

I'll start off with line management:
UpB: Pikmin Footstool - Olimar footstools off of one of his Pikmin, killing it in the process. This isn't really my idea. It's been floating around a while, and I realize that it's pretty much impossible to implement by having Olimar literally jump off one of his Pikmin, but I do think it should be possible to make it look like that's what he's doing. What I like about this is that it can be done such that Olimar can react very quickly after he's performed the jump, allowing him to waveland after a grounded UpB, making farming very quick and safe. Naturally, it also doubles as a recovery move that can be acted out of, but has a cost.

NeutralB: Pluck - The move is no longer useless in the air or with a full line. In either of these situations, rather than pluck a new Pikmin, Olimar rotates the line by one. This is distinct from Whistle because Whistle not only recalls thrown Pikmin, but also always puts them in the same order, with a pre-determined color at the front. Futhermore, extend the utility of smash pluck canceling by allowing the ending lag of pluck to be canceled by any move that uses Pikmin--any of his smashes, grabs, non-neutral aerials, or specials, basically. This makes it much easier to incorporate line management into Olimar's offense, so that he doesn't have to let off the pressure in order to get the Pikmin that he wants.

The rest of Olimar's specials are fine as they are. So what about specializing the Pikmin:

Red Pikmin are Olimar's Attack Damage Pikmin. They do the most damage on normal attacks, but aren't as effective with throw or latch damage, and they have poor health. They also have sub-par knockback growth, beating only Whites in that category. This does make them more effective in combos, however, especially at percents where other Pikmin would be knocking opponents too far. They also have less range and active frames than most Pikmin. Also, usmash and uair are meteors on grounded opponents (dair is always a meteor, so there's also that).

Blue Pikmin are best when throwing opponents. They have mediocre health, and on attacks an latches they have mediocre or even poor knockback, damage and range, but they have the longest grab-range, the second most damaging pummel, and the best knockback and damage on all throws.

Yellow Pikmin are more used for zoning and space control. They have the largest and longest-active hitboxes of all the Pikmin, and the longest range on fsmash. Toss retains the higher arc from Brawl. Otherwise, they have mediocre damage and above average health, and the knockback is best for its low angles.

White Pikmin continue to be the latch DPS Pikmin. They have the worst health, and they have the worst damage and knockback on attacks and throws, and their range is mediocre, but their pummel and latch damage is unparalleled. They also retain their long Toss range.

Purples also continue to be the tanks. They have great health and phenomenal knockback growth. They also have pretty good attack damage, second only to reds. However, they have terrible range, and they aren't great for throws. They continue to just hit opponents when thrown rather than latching.

With these changes, randomness is further mitigated by having many more options to counteract its effects. This allows the properties of the Pikmin to be more specialized, which in turn makes it more necessary for Olimar mains to become more proficient in line management.​

To make an adendum, I agree with you about the importance of line management and making it easier. But I still think your suggestion complicates the character. I think a superior way to handle line management is to make it so that a+b, backa+b, forwarda+b, ua+b, and da+b cause specific pikman to enter the front of the line (example a+b always puts red in the front). That way, you don't have to have olimar airborne to have control of his pikmin order. I also think his neutral b should maybe be changed, and pikmin should just pop out of the ground when he's crouched. It seems like a waste of a perfectly useful special button space. Instead, I think PM should incorporate his potions (in pikmin 2 he had a purple potion that would turn an opponent to stone when sprayed with it, and a red potion that would power up his pikmin). Red potion could maybe be a chargeable thing not dissimilar to lucas's neutral b.

Maybe incorporate the leaf->bud-> flower mechanics as well, rewarding you for keeping pikmin alive longer.

 

[standardtoaster]

Nkguy01, edit your posts next time instead of quad posting.

 

[ph00tbag]

To make an adendum, I agree with you about the importance of line management and making it easier. But I still think your suggestion complicates the character. I think a superior way to handle line management is to make it so that a+b, backa+b, forwarda+b, ua+b, and da+b cause specific pikman to enter the front of the line (example a+b always puts red in the front). That way, you don't have to have olimar airborne to have control of his pikmin order. I also think his neutral b should maybe be changed, and pikmin should just pop out of the ground when he's crouched. It seems like a waste of a perfectly useful special button space.

All of these suggestions complicate the character far more than simply enhancing existing moves to make line management more impactful.

 

[The_NZA]

All of these suggestions complicate the character far more than simply enhancing existing moves to make line management more impactful.

This is a new game, and these characters are mostly being treated as new ones. With the method you suggested, there are two limitations.
1. you have to be airborne to switch pikmin
2. You have to know who is in the line up so that you can hit b the requisite number of times to get the right pikmin that you want in the front. That means in the middle of the frantic smash universe, mashing b a specific amount of times to pull the right pikmin out before the opportunity slips away. The ABdirectional thing has already been done with Lucario so there is a precedent.

By allowing you to always have a red one when you hit ab, and yellow when you upab, you don't need to focus on hitting a button multiple times and accidentally over or undertapping it to get the right pikmin. With your method, your brain has to make a connection, for instance hwen you are in a perfect grab situation. "do i have to hit b 3 times now". On top of that, you have to jump to make the change over. If you knew "back ab always means blue" then it becomes instinctual.

 

[ph00tbag]

1. So?
2. It's not there so you can always have the exact Pikmin you want. It's there so you can skip the Pikmin you definitely don't want. And if all you have is Pikmin you definitely don't want, then you're a ****ty Olimar who can't manage his line properly. The Pikmin are intended to be on a sliding scale of utility for any given situation, so if you have one Pikmin that is worst for a situation, and the next one is not that Pikmin, then you are guaranteed to have a better Pikmin if you switch. Maybe this is a complicated concept, but it's no more complicated than Olimar is in Brawl.

Giving Olimar the exact Pikmin he needs for every situation is exactly the balance snafu I want to avoid, since it would literally give Olimar five times as many options as any other character in the game for free. The problem isn't so much that it makes Olimar complicated for the Olimar player (Olimar is supposed to be complicated to play anyway--successfully managing all of the variables is what makes him fun), it makes it uncomplicated for the player, and ridiculously complicated for the opponent. It creates a heavily loaded guessing game against Olimar's opponent. The only way to balance that is to go back to making all of the Pikmin have the same utility.

And Lucario is designed to be an exception to a number of Smash rules. He's also really stupid. Bringing him up does not help your case.

 

[The_NZA]

Hmm...the Lucario thing is definitely your opinion, and not shared by all. Some people think he's really cool. Those that don't have more of an issue with his OHC system than his aura game (which is where the A+B comparisons come in).

And I agree with you, there might be an inherent risk on making it too easy to pick what pikmin you want for each situation. But I think that would separate the good olimars from the greats, because the goods won't be running any line management for opportune situations where as the great will be able to sniff out a grab coming out and will do their a+b combination when they need to. I agree that Olimar should be complicated but you have to consider: Brawl was a game of space, dead air, and it was much slower. The kind of management possible in Brawl was probably 10x easier than in PM, where someone is always in your face. To address your two responses:

1. I'm not really sure what to say. I gave you a very fair explanation of a clear advantage the suggestion I am making has: being airborne when you don't want to be is a limitation. Maybe you think that limitation is akin to balance but I don't think its a good idea to force people to jump in order to do their switcheroo if they don't have to. You are kind of responding aggressively when we are just trying to outline good ideas for the next iteration. I liked a lot of your ideas––I'm just offering a suggestion to give the most amount of options/control to Olimar players with the least drawbacks.

2. Try and consider that line management will be really hard in the fastpaced gameplay of PM. If it is not instant and intuitive, Olimars will likely play campier due to their lack of confidence of what each hit string is going to do (I know I would). Unless you know you have 3 reds and 2 blues and you plan it all out, you might be worried what an engagement looks like when you have Yellow Blue Blue White Purple. WIth the A+B combinations to move a certain pikmin to the front, it is still cerebral––you need to know which pikmins you have in your lineup or you will be calling for a pikmin to come to the front that doesn't exist. But it becomes more instinctual, intuitive. At first, it will be unusual doing A+B combinations but by the end, you wont have to count your number of colors and then say to yourself (okay, i need to hit b x 3 times to get yellow to the front).

 

[ph00tbag]

It's not my opinion that Lucario is an exception to a number of fairly consistent rules of how Smash is designed. That's a fact, and it's why bringing up Lucario has bung to do with the point at hand.

Your suggestion would make it impossible to distinguish the good Olimars from the greats, because it would completely negate the need to manage one's line at all. Whenever you wanted a blue Pikmin, you would have a blue Pikmin. You wouldn't have to adapt your playstyle to the Pikmin that you have in the next two spots in your line. You wouldn't even really have to adapt to your opponent, because, with five times as many options as they have, you would dictate the terms of every guessing game. You don't have to be particularly good to work your brain around that.

1. I get that you have a concern here. I just don't see it as a particularly huge problem, and I don't understand why it's a big deal to you. So Olimar can't change Pikmin while standing stock still if he doesn't have a full line. Sure, there are times when that limits Olimar, but that's a really small set, and is an acceptable sacrifice for me in order to make Olimar as challenging to use as he is to play. He still has the ability to change Pikmin in the air at any time and retain full mobility. Plus, if he has a full line, he gains the ability to change Pikmin while grounded, so if it's really that much of a concern for you, then you have more reason to keep your Pikmin alive.

2. Yes. Line management will be hard. That's what will separate the good Olimars from the great ones. Isn't that your goal? It's certainly mine.

 

[The_NZA]

I hear your concerns about "dumbing him down" but I personally fall in the side of things of "let's not make mechanics artificially hard to create a skill ceiling. Instead, make the mechanics easy but give a plethora of options and usage of options to determine the good players from the bad."

It would be easier in my method to call a blue, a red or a purple whenever you want to. But the thing is, smash is on one level cerebral and on another level instinct. Most of the game, I would argue is instinct and your brain often tries to keep up, allowing you to read your opponent, strategize, etc. I do not believe just because calling the right pikmin to the front of the line is easy, suddenly having the perfect answer for every situation is easy as well. How often do you know in your play to go for a grab? Often times, that decision is a reactive one, or an instinctual one. Only the most aware players are going to be able to make a blue pikmin lead in those situations, and follow up with a white, into a red, etc. Knowing Olimar's aerials with certain pikmin against certain weight classes still reigns supreme, but you aren't fighting the system in order to be able to use those tools.

That's my gameplay design philosophy. Make everything intuitive, but give someone so many options of things to use so that only the best can use them all optimally.

 

[ph00tbag]

Having situational awareness about the state of one's own line, and the character knowledge and instincts to react appropriately to one's opponent's decisions is central skillset necessary to playing Olimar. It is the core of his design philosophy, and mastery of it is its own reward. Retaining that unique challenge in the move from Brawl PM is not, and never will be, making the game artificially hard. If you disagree, then you might as well be arguing to have Olimar removed, because creative, adaptive and intelligent use of Pikmin is the interesting quality Olimar brings to the game.

Meanwhile, you're suggesting the introduction of five wholly new moves, mostly shared by no other character in the game, that utterly undermine Olimar's singular mechanic. They're not even consistent with the rest of his character design. What's the point of having the pikmin rotate anyway, if you can just select the one you need for any given move? Why even make Whistle reorder the Pikmin if their order has nothing to do with what Pikmin you're actually going to use next? Why bother even introducing new line management tools if you're just going to bypass all of their utility with some other option that's always better? If anything, you are the one making him artificially simple.

For more on the topic of options that are always better, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww_PjqYQi5E. I'm not trying to say your idea is necessarily bad. I'm saying it's way, way, way, different from the way Olimar is designed, and maybe for a different character, it could have potential (and even without having to make a whole A+B moveset), but for Olimar, it just plain doesn't fit.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't get it...i'm not introducing five wholly new moves. The idea isn't that olimar gets a new fsmash when he's using a red versus a white...its that the properties and hitbox's change. Why wouldn't you want it as easy as possible for a player to choose the pikmin he wants to use for whatever aerial he wants to do?

If anything, that video you posted refers to what I've been arguing. In everything related to PM, the one consistent thing that has been uttered is that this is a new game, and many of the brawl characters are being invented from scratch. See how wario got a total makeover to be more like wario land games than warioware games. The super castlevania video talks about how if they had invented castlevania around diagonal whipping there would have been many innovations that could have been cool that would be whipped-focused. Instead, they kept the old stuff but it sucked.

"A preceding title should act as an inspiration for a sequel...the sequel shouldn't be weighed down by a relevant tradition for the sake of consistency".

Olimar's character identity is to be able to have all his hitboxes vary based on the pikmin he is holding. In Brawl, switching pikmin was difficult and the defensive nature of the game made him campy. In PM, he will likely still have his pikmin throwing campiness, but he will also be blessed with the unique ability to change his hitboxes on the fly. If this is the centralizing part of his identity, changing his hitbox's ought to be easy, so that you can pick the right ones for the right situations. That doesn't mean players are going to easily do it on the fly. Just because you know you have to utilt in a given situation doesn't mean you'll think fast enough to put the right pikmin in first that has the best utilt. But it does mean in the middle of a combo, if you see an opening to hit them with a white and followup with a purple, you can do that on the fly.

I don't know...I just firmly believe olimar's central identity isn't line management, it is changing hitboxes intelligently. If that is who he is, you should give him the ability to have many hit boxes to choose from and making picking them easy. I don't have much more to add to the conversation.

 

[The_NZA]

Just to post a non-Olimar post for a second,

People are generally agreed that DDD is low tier. I would love to hear his problems and how to make him better. In seeing some DDD players, I think his main problem is that everyone in PM (bowser included) can combo to an extent, and DDD functions much like a Brawl player in a smash game. I think his comboability could be improved if his Upb could be canceled into an aerial similar to Bowser's downB. This would allow ddd to chase enemies vertically from the ground to combo them. However, I understand this can pose an issue in making his recovery too safe (sonic often gets flack for having too good a recovery since he can attack and airdodge out of his upb). To solve this, I think it would be cool if DDD goes into special fall or can't grab onto edges after he cancels his upb with an attack (maybe he keeps descending with the same rate as if he were on his way down with his upb)

 

[ph00tbag]

The idea isn't that olimar gets a new fsmash when he's using a red versus a white...its that the properties and hitbox's change. Why wouldn't you want it as easy as possible for a player to choose the pikmin he wants to use for whatever aerial he wants to do?

Stop asking questions I've already answered. I don't want Olimar to be a stance-change character, because that's not what he is.

In everything related to PM, the one consistent thing that has been uttered is that this is a new game, and many of the brawl characters are being invented from scratch. See how wario got a total makeover to be more like wario land games than warioware games.

It's not consistent at all. ZSS was balanced to have better rewards for her zoning and frame traps, and in Brawl her design was massive rewards for successful traps. Lucas is still about transitioning from limited space control to ambiguous and safe-ish pressure strings and landing hard punishes with powerful smashes. Diddy Kong is still about controlling the ground with bananas. Snake is still about broad control of the whole stage with all of his projectiles and punishing overzealous attempts to move around the projectile control.

The super castlevania video talks about how if they had invented castlevania around diagonal whipping there would have been many innovations that could have been cool that would be whipped-focused. Instead, they kept the old stuff but it sucked.

The point of the video is that the designers of Castlevania four attempted to make one option stellar, while in no way accommodating the design changes, while retaining a bunch of options for the sake of tradition that became worthless in light of the design changes. Egoraptor is arguing that making the whip a stellar option wasn't an inherently bad decision, it just totally changed the nature of the game and the designers ignored that. This is what you're doing. You want Olimar to retain whistle, and you want his line to rotate with the use of Pikmin, and the idea of a command rotation is a good addition. You apparently even like the idea of Pikmin Footstool. All of these ideas are entirely meaningless, and even hindrances, if Olimar is just going to be picking the Pikmin he wants for a given situation at any point in time. You want Olimar to have this really good and accessible option, but then you ignore how that option affects the rest of the character's design.

Egoraptor also mentions that there was nothing invalid about the design of Castlevania. Indeed, he touts it as one of the best designed games of the NES era, in terms of how well the gameplay compliments your options and challenges you entirely within the limits of what the game allows you to do. And he doesn't preclude the possibility that an equally interesting sequel could have been made that continued to emphasize the utility of items. His problem wasn't with the fact the items were retained. It's that they were retained in a context where they were utterly unnecessary.

What I'm saying, and why I introduced the video at all, is that I find your idea to be, to borrow verbiage from Egoraptor, ungraceful. There's apparently no thought given to how being able to change Pikmin at will changes the way the character will be played, and the fact that it makes a number of Olimar's mechanics obsolete or obstructive.

This is the thought process that should follow from your idea. You need to toss out the notion of rotation, because if the player's going to be switching the Pikmin when they need to, then the rotation is superfluous. Since you'll always stay on the currently selected Pikmin, now, there's also not really much need to have more than one of a given type, so let's just have all five spawn with you. Since there's no rotation, and the player is going to have full control over his next Pikmin, anyway, there's also no need to be culling Pikmin you don't want, because you'll never run into them (This also negates any ill effects of spawn with one of each type of Pikmin). So Pikmin Footstool is unnecessary, except as a now very heavy punishment for needing to recover (you might as well just keep Chain). You might as well make it so Pikmin eventually return to Olimar when thrown offstage, as well, leaving the only way to incur their death as being killed by the opponent. In this light, losing a Pikmin would have to be a much bigger deal, so make it so that you can choose the next Pikmin you pluck, but it takes longer, and the Pikmin is a leaf again (flower Pikmin are naturally more powerful).

So relative to Brawlimar, we've gotten rid of Whistle, and Pluck (at least in the traditional sense). We've retained chain, because it's actually better now that you're less likely to be losing Pikmin that you aren't using. Since we have so much control over Pikmin, now, it'd be cool to make these commands now do Pikmin-specific stuff. Let's have DownB plant the Pikmin, and if your opponent steps on them, they blow up with properties that suit the Pikmin. NeutralB can be a projectile that's specific to the Pikmin type (Red is a fireball, yellow is a spark, white is poison, etc.). Other ideas are possible. I really only remember Latch being a particularly important ability for the Pikmin to perform, so it's hard to invent stuff on the spot.

There's a slew of ramifications to your idea. And the end result is certainly an interesting character, but he's very, very different from the starting point, and he has nothing to do with my design. You didn't consider these ramifications, and instead threw your idea on top of a set of tools that suddenly became useless in light of your idea.

I don't know...I just firmly believe olimar's central identity isn't line management, it is changing hitboxes intelligently. If that is who he is, you should give him the ability to have many hit boxes to choose from and making picking them easy. I don't have much more to add to the conversation.

So this is your real point: you don't like Olimar's Brawl design scheme. I hate to break it to you, but line management is what his tools are designed for. Many of them can't really be for any other purpose. If you don't want him to be that way, then that's all well and good, but maybe be a bit more thorough in considering how the character changes as a result.

 

[The_NZA]

Okay, i see the benefits of your system and I think you understand I envisioned a different olimar. Maybe your Olimar where the player has to stick with teh pikmin he has in his line with a bit more control than Brawl will win out. However, I find Olimar's brawl design to be about campy pikmin throwing play while using his disjointed pikmin hitboxes to protect him when people approach. That seemed lame to me (although perhaps an interesting playstyle when considered the various offerings in brawl). I think given the aggression viable in PM, Olimar would be best not to be a camp character. We have enough of those, in Zelda and some others.

 

[MVP]

this just came to my mind....

Samus reverse charge shot..
** ** and Missles...


Samus is gunna be the best character ever :D

 

[Vashimus]

I fear Samus struggling.

 

[SmashShadow]

+Her recovery will no doubt see a change in how it's used as her tether combined with bomb jump stalling will be less useful because of how tethers work in PM. I never really saw her with much trouble with edgehoggers so I can't see the system helping her too much either. The only thing I'm certain will happen is her up special improving.

Things on my Samas wishlist:
-Down B has more hitstun so there's some combos you make with it.
-Uair does more damage and connects better. Currently it does 10% but that's only if all hits connect. I'd rather it be around 14%
-Dair Smash 64 incarnation
-Usmash A single explosion with good KB so she actually has a move that kills vertically.
-Jab links together muche better is faster and the second hit does more KB
-Brawl Zair
-Brawl Up special which is much better than Melee's
-More power or range on fsmash
-N64 Bair
-Fair should have higher priority so it isn't beat out by everything.
-Her Other M roll.
-Back throw should have increased KB for throwing people off the edge or maybe even be a kill move.
-Make homing missiles home slightly better and accelerate a little longer.
-Maybe slightly increase aerial mobility.
- Change her stupid taunt where she points left and right to her Melee one.
- Her up throw should have less KB or KB growth so it can combo into aerials better.
-Quicker UTilt

 

[KayB]

About ICs...
There's a few things that you can do.
1. Make SoPo stronger. This is really the key in making Ice Climbers a better character. The only problem with this is that it's difficult to do with powering up Popo and Nana together.
2. Make desynchs easier. And I mean desynchs that enable you to do nanapults and ice block covers. Desychns right now take a tad bit too long to set up.
3. Give them a better recovery and ledge options. Have squall hammer be able to sweet spot the ledge. Also, make it easier for Popo to save Nana (ex, have squall hammer have more range in connecting with Nana) Another glaring issue is their options from recovering from the ledge, which is not many. Recovering won't mean much if they can get knocked back off with ease.
4. This is debatable, which is to improve Nana's recovery. This will be a huge buff for ice climbers and some might argue that they need it. Others might argue that this will make IC's broken. Idk.



I honestly have a whole list of things I can say for GnW.

 

[MVP]

SmashShadow i most of your points. Some stuff i'd change or alter but thats cool

If there was one thing possible that i'd want integrated into samus (aka wishlist) it'd be SWD

or.....

Please excuse the crudity of this mock-up image, it's meant to interpret attack direction, range, and hitboxes. (The first one more than the second one).


MULTIPLE BEAMS system (you switch them via taunt buttons)

Samus really needs to adapat to other characters, and what bugs me is, she HAS the tools to do that. But Sakurai has sort of hindered her badly since the first game.
The ability to switch between beams would be the best way to raise her up a few tier levels, as her arm-cannon would now play a major role in her metagame.


BETTER ARM-CANON "FIRE" ATTACKS

Because her arm-canon NEEDS to shoot everytime she pulls the trigger (thing). Instead of small bursts of flame, she should actually shoot with these attacks.
I mean, if Samus is to remain a hard-to-kill-with character, at least make her a good damage racker!
If Snake can have a long-ranged uSmash, why not Samus?

 

[Stunts]

MK will become unplayable if he was lowered to #2 on the tier list.

A fight of the top tiers. Metaknight Vs. Melee Fox. This could be interesting...

 

[Vashimus]

Okay seriously, I really think the arm cannon suggestions will ultimately lead to a broken character, or at the very least, an unbelievably polarizing playstyle more obnoxious than Zelda's, that doesn't at all reflect her Melee one. Also, what is this about Samus being a "hard-to-kill-with" character? Super missiles, Charge shot, Nair, Bair, D-smash, F-smash, and Up-tilt (gimp) ALL kill in Melee, which were all heavily nerfed in Brawl. We're not gonna use Brawl Samus as the foundation for P:M Samus. I'd rather have Melee Samus with slight buffs than being totally revamped into a drastically different character.

 

[me9595]

i think this is the right place to suggest this, bowser should be able to shell shift like squirtle can

 

[MVP]

in regard to samus, the PMBR stated they will be working from her melee core. So all idea submission should be related to her melee counterpart and not her brawl

(or for any melee vet for the matter)

 

[SmashShadow]

in regard to samus, the PMBR stated they will be working from her melee core. So all idea submission should be related to her melee counterpart and not her brawl

(or for any melee vet for the matter)

Yes, we should be referencing her Melee build but we shouldn't deny the fact that brawl will have influence in this game. Link got his brawl Zair, Falco got his brawl jab, Pikachu got his N64 Bair. I highly doubt that PMBR ports characters over before figuring out/testing out what their brawl versions had beforehand. Currently, the tether system and the fact that Samus's grab was shortened will change how some things work so there are bound to be some things translate. Plus, I don't see anything wrong with taking pages from brawl(or N64) if they make an improvement on her build(i.e Zair and Up special).

 

[MVP]

Okay seriously, I really think the arm cannon suggestions will ultimately lead to a broken character, or at the very least, an unbelievably polarizing playstyle more obnoxious than Zelda's, that doesn't at all reflect her Melee one. Also, what is this about Samus being a "hard-to-kill-with" character? Super missiles, Charge shot, Nair, Bair, D-smash, F-smash, and Up-tilt (gimp) ALL kill in Melee, which were all heavily nerfed in Brawl. We're not gonna use Brawl Samus as the foundation for P:M Samus. I'd rather have Melee Samus with slight buffs than being totally revamped into a drastically different character.

yes those moves do kill, but compared to the rest of the cast, they kill at higher percents. usually above 120ish


EDIT: she can gimp somewhat with her up-tilt, but its very hard in tight matches to pull off a fully charged charge shot when fighting characters who play high-pace matches. Her bair doesn't kill till after 120ish on some stages and same goes for her down smash. super missiles are hard to land against players who are familiar with the matchup.

 

[Vashimus]

Then the solution for that problem is to simply increase her overall power and knockback on those moves. Quoting Humble here, suggestions like that are simple and actually aim to directly fix the character's inherent issues. Implementing a multiple beam system is extremely time-consuming, difficult to code, and a balancing nightmare.

I understand people like to make wild suggestions because of how cool it sounds in their head, but if it's not practical or even remotely necessary for the character, the idea is not going to be considered. The PMBR is not trying to revamp a Melee character, they're simply going to refine her.

 

[MVP]

Then the solution for that problem is to simply increase her overall power and knockback on those moves. Quoting Humble here, suggestions like that are simple and actually aim to directly fix the character's inherent issues. Implementing a multiple beam system is extremely time-consuming, difficult to code, and a balancing nightmare.

I understand people like to make wild suggestions because of how cool it sounds in their head, but if it's not practical or even remotely necessary for the character, the idea is not going to be considered. The PMBR is not trying to revamp a Melee character, they're simply going to refine her.

I agree with you completely Vashimus, my post about the multi-beam was more of a fantasy really. I know that realistically it's not very logical to implement it.

I've already spoken out about samus many times in the past months. And i still stand by my statement that Samus in melee was ok but not very good. Meaning she was fun to play as and had a lot of undeveloped tools, but she couldn't win big. Her playstyle in melee, i feel, is a great frame to start from, and that with a few tweaks and adjustments she can become high tier material. There was just minor things overall in melee that held her back. Yes they were minor but they had a huge impact on her playstlye and winning ability. The best example i can think of is Bowser. Bowser sucked in melee but in PM, he's a beast NOT to be taken lightly....

 

[Vashimus]

The difference is that Bowser DID need a lot of help since he was just a terrible character, wheras Samus was already a solid character in Melee with good match-ups, so she only needs a little tweaking. A better example would be Link, who I think is the most well-designed character in P:M. Link couldn't win it big in Melee either, but that didn't mean he didn't have anything good about him already. A bit more frame advantage, speedier physics and better recovery, and boom, we have the best version of Link ever to appear in a Smash game.

Also, I doubt the PMBR really takes the tier list into consideration when making characters, at least not to point where they go "Sh*t, we gotta make sure such-and-such is high tier!" They want to focus on making solid viable characters that don't have silly designs . How well those characters actually do, they won't know for sure until later.

 

[MVP]

The difference is that Bowser DID need a lot of help since he was just a terrible character, wheras Samus was already a solid character in Melee with good match-ups, so she only needs a little tweaking. A better example would be Link, who I think is the most polished and well-designed character yet in P:M. Link couldn't win it big in Melee either, but that didn't mean he didn't have anything good about him already. A bit more frame advantage, speedier physics and better recovery, and boom, we have the best version of Link ever to appear in a Smash game.

Also, I doubt the PMBR really takes the tier list into consideration when making characters, at least not to point where they go "Sh*t, we gotta make sure such-and-such is high tier!" They want to focus on making solid viable characters that don't have silly designs . How well those characters actually do, they won't know for sure until later.

Yes link is a better example. I personally don't believe in tier-lists when it comes to PM (i believe in MU's) but i stated that because that's what the PMBR stated. But to stay on topic of Character idea submissions, your samus and link comparison was a lot better than mine. That's what i was trying to say earlier with my "her playstyle is a great frame for starting" or something like that

 

[Vashimus]

But tier lists DO take matchups into account, as well as tournament results. Really, the Tier List Speculation thread is more of a fun thing than anything else, even though some people would say otherwise. We all love to theory-craft, but this game is still young and constantly changing. Nothing's really concrete outside of the top tier.

But yeah, that's a topic for another day.

 

[himemiya]

Metaknight

Just a thought, what if pmbr were to make mk infinate dimensional cape a technical skill based advance technique? Like someone mention his down-b should cancel to anything so lets take that and make so he automatically grab the edge when slipping off. Of course give it quicker agility and improved mobility and a way to tell where you at. And if someone where to use it to camp maybe give it a time limit?

 

[CoeusFreeze]

Maybe this is just me, but I found G&W's key to be one of his major assets in many matchups. Why was it nerfed so badly in project M is a mystery to me. Without it, rushdown is very difficult in a lot of matchups.

 

[SmashShadow]

Maybe this is just me, but I found G&W's key to be one of his major assets in many matchups. Why was it nerfed so badly in project M is a mystery to me. Without it, rushdown is very difficult in a lot of matchups.

This isn't really the thread for that. This is for unreleased characters. You should post this in the Game and Watch thread in character discussion.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The key to victory.

It's still rather good in Melee and PM, though.

 

[CoeusFreeze]

Y'know, I've heard a lot if talk about samus' beam, but no mention of balancing much else, like her incredibly useless power bomb. I was thinking you could alter it so that the power bombs either stick in the air as traps as in the metroid games or using the move on the ground puts you into a morph ball state in which you can roll around momentarily and place bombs. Or perhaps it can function like abel's roll in SSF4 when you use it on the ground (a great tool for mixups).

I was also thinking that perhaps the speed booster could be applied as a move. Either as samus' dash attack or a side special to replace missiles (she needs mobility more than lackluster projectiles anyway).

 

[SmashShadow]

Y'know, I've heard a lot if talk about samus' beam, but no mention of balancing much else, like her incredibly useless power bomb. I was thinking you could alter it so that the power bombs either stick in the air as traps as in the metroid games or using the move on the ground puts you into a morph ball state in which you can roll around momentarily and place bombs. Or perhaps it can function like abel's roll in SSF4 when you use it on the ground (a great tool for mixups).

I was also thinking that perhaps the speed booster could be applied as a move. Either as samus' dash attack or a side special to replace missiles (she needs mobility more than lackluster projectiles anyway).

Firstly, making the bombs stick in the air would destroy her bomb jump completely weakening her already weakened recovery.
Secondly, her missiles are a great projectile capable of killing, gimping and covering her approach with missile cancel.

 

[Master of Fossils]

I was also thinking that perhaps the speed booster could be applied as a move. Either as samus' dash attack or a side special to replace missiles (she needs mobility more than lackluster projectiles anyway).

I don't know if it would even be feasible to implement but making her actual dash into the speed booster would be amazing. Like after running for a little bit she starts glowing and running faster with knockback to whoever she hits. Also if her design was based on Super Metroid it would make sense for her to be able to translate most, if not all of her ground speed into horizontal air speed.

 

[Vashimus]

Y'know, I've heard a lot if talk about samus' beam, but no mention of balancing much else, like her incredibly useless power bomb. I was thinking you could alter it so that the power bombs either stick in the air as traps as in the metroid games or using the move on the ground puts you into a morph ball state in which you can roll around momentarily and place bombs. Or perhaps it can function like abel's roll in SSF4 when you use it on the ground (a great tool for mixups).

I was also thinking that perhaps the speed booster could be applied as a move. Either as samus' dash attack or a side special to replace missiles (she needs mobility more than lackluster projectiles anyway).

 

[CoeusFreeze]

Okay, my apologies for the missile comment. Maybe its the people I've been playing melee with, but my samus-maining friend almost never uses the missiles in his samus play, preferring to just rush us down with his air attacks and sometimes using the charge beam for punishment or combos. The bombs are never used, and I don't really see how they aid recovery (they don't grant much altitude and you're a sitting duck while waithing for them to go off). What I meant by floating is that they remain in place a la zelda's firebombs. Samus would bounce slightly above them when she drops them and they would detonate when she contacts them.