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Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

Technomage

Smash Champion
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I'll be placing 10 noms on Bubsy, assuming he wasn't already discussed (which is why I asked for a list of already-discussed characters).
 

SharkLord

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Oof, sorry for the wait, I got preoccupied. Anyways, our next character is a bit of a darkhorse as far as submission goes; Jace Beleren from.. Uh...
1622581293917.png

His support thread mentions MTG... I'm assuming that's Magic: The Gathering but honestly I don't know. So, first question: What game is this guy from?

Nomination: Amiya x15
 

Eldrake

Smash Lord
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Aug 5, 2008
Messages
1,281
Oof, sorry for the wait, I got preoccupied. Anyways, our next character is a bit of a darkhorse as far as submission goes; Jace Beleren from.. Uh...
View attachment 317377
His support thread mentions MTG... I'm assuming that's Magic: The Gathering but honestly I don't know. So, first question: What game is this guy from?

Nomination: Amiya x15
Yeah he's from Magic The Gathering.
 

Pillow

Smash Lord
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Yes Jace is the poster boy for MTG nowadays, which definitely did not start as a video game. He's 100% ineligible as a Smash character, but I thought he'd be fun to discuss anyway because Magic, while not originally a video game, is game with a pretty large and lasting legacy.

I'll probably writeup a moveset for him shortly when I get some free time.

Noms:
x10 Innkeeper
 
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Gengar84

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Dec 9, 2009
Messages
6,609
I’ve been a huge fan of Magic: the Gathering for over 20 years now. I got into it around 4th Edition and Ice Age back in Middle School. Smash, Magic, and wrestling are probably my three biggest hobbies ever.

There are so many characters that would make for really fun Smash characters but I agree that Jace or another member of the Gatewatch makes the most sense.

My first question is why you ended up choosing Jace over the others like Chandra, Lilliana, Ajani, or Garruk? Jace could definitely make for a cool defensive character focusing on counters, reflectors, and making clones of himself.
 
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Pillow

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I’ve been a huge fan of Magic: The Gathering for over 20 years now. I got into it around 4th Edition and Ice Age back in Middle School. There are so many characters that would make for really fun Smash characters but I agree that Jace or another member of the Gatewatch makes the most sense.

My first question is why you ended up choosing Jace over the others like Chandra, Lilliana, Ajani, or Garruk?
Jace is pretty much the "face" of the game now, and has been since they focused their story on the Gatewatch. It's either him or Chandra. Plus nothing represents Magic better than getting ****** by Blue until you wanna quit the game.


As for people unfamiliar with the game, or its lore, Jace is one of the founding members of the "Gatewatch" which is basically the Avengers of the MTG setting, who travel different dimensions doing random hero stuff and trying to stop a big bad evil dragon. Generally each new Magic set visits a different "plane" which are often centered around different themes i.e. Ancient Egypt World, Victorian Horror World, etc. Each of the Gatewatch members represent one of the 5 main colors of magic, with Jace being the guy for blue. He's called a "mind mage" which is basically a psychic or telepath.
 
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chocolatejr9

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Messages
8,384
Um... why Magic the Gathering? I honestly know nothing about this game...

Also, if MTG is eligible, than can I nominate somebody like Captain N?
 

GolisoPower

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Honestly, I'd be willing to give Jace a shot if, say, Sakurai made a character out of Nintendo's hanafuda cards. And even then, it's a big "maybe". Making a character out of a card game of all things at the moment seems rather...odd, and I've rarely ever played MtG in my life.
 

SharkLord

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Um... why Magic the Gathering? I honestly know nothing about this game...

Also, if MTG is eligible, than can I nominate somebody like Captain N?
Maybe? Jace has a support thread and it isn't taken down, so if Captain N has one that the mods allow then he should be eligible.
I don't give a Spindlh Johnny about MtG (but then again, I don't really play trading card games nowadays).
Y'know, if you don't care you don't have to comment. The thread's about starting up discussion for characters, so if you have nothing constructive to add I don't see the point of saying "I don't care." It's not gonna get you extra noms or anything.
 

Pillow

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I forgot to ask: What summons would be great for that item?
Well the thing is, it's not like Yu-Gi-Oh. The "card game" thing actually isn't present within the lore of the games, MTG cards themselves usually depict actions or characters of the stories in the game. So a "pick a card" item, while interesting, would probably be better suited to a different franchise.

If the general consensus is that we should be sticking to video game characters then I don't mind revising my nominations to someone else.
 

chocolatejr9

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Maybe? Jace has a support thread and it isn't taken down, so if Captain N has one that the mods allow then he should be eligible.

Y'know, if you don't care you don't have to comment. The thread's about starting up discussion for characters, so if you have nothing constructive to add I don't see the point of saying "I don't care." It's not gonna get you extra noms or anything.
Well, I WAS thinking about maybe asking the mods to reconsider, but I get nervous about these kinds of things...

Anyways, here's Jace's Support Thread, in all its one-post glory.

 

Gengar84

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Jace is pretty much the "face" of the game now, and has been since they focused their story on the Gatewatch. It's either him or Chandra. Plus nothing represents Magic better than getting ****** by Blue until you wanna quit the game.
Yeah that’s true. They have been shifting focus toward Lilliana lately with the whole War of the Spark storyline. It seems like she, Chandra, and Jace are all pretty even in terms of being the face of MtG.

I think all of the Lorwyn Planeswalkers would make for really unique and interesting characters. Garruk would be a hulking super heavyweight that summons beasts to help him. Ajani would be defensive based with healing spells and has a unique weapon. Chandra would focus on fire attacks like fireballs, flamethrowers, and summoning elementals. Lilliana would use dark magic and life draining spells as well as being a necromancer and summoning zombies. Finally, I see Jace as a tricky character that plays around with mind games. He would likely have both a counter and a reflector as well as making clones of himself.
 

SharkLord

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Regarding the questions of eligibility, the support thread was allowed so I'll allow Jace's day.

Anyways, another question: What's MTG all about? I know approximately jacksquat about this game.
 

Perkilator

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Y'know, if you don't care you don't have to comment. The thread's about starting up discussion for characters, so if you have nothing constructive to add I don't see the point of saying "I don't care." It's not gonna get you extra noms or anything.
Okay, then, I get how that can be a little annoying. That said, I don't really say things like that for the sake of extra noms anyways; it's not like I'm that desperate for attention. I just like to throw my hat into the ring, even if it's nothing really of interest.
 

Pillow

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Yeah that’s true. They have been shifting focus toward Lilliana lately with the whole War of the Spark storyline. It seems like she, Chandra, and Jace are all pretty even in terms of being the face of MtG.

I think all of the Lorwyn Planeswalkers would make for really unique and interesting characters. Garruk would be a hulking super heavyweight that summons beasts to help him. Ajani would be defensive based with healing spells and has a unique weapon. Chandra would focus on fire attacks like fireballs, flamethrowers, and summoning elementals. Lilliana would use dark magic and life draining spells as well as being a necromancer and summoning zombies. Finally, I see Jace as a tricky character that plays around with mind games. He would likely have both a counter and a reflector as well as making clones of himself.
Lilli would've been okay as well, and I think they all could have interesting movesets, but I think I'd still consider Jace the "main" guy.

Regarding the questions of eligibility, the support thread was allowed so I'll allow Jace's day.

Anyways, another question: What's MTG all about? I know approximately jacksquat about this game.
Basically the setting is there's a large number of different "planes" which are basically different dimensions / worlds. They often have pretty obvious themes, like Ixalan is based off Mesoamerica during Spanish Conquest, Amonhket is based off of Ancient Egypt, Innistrad is Gothic Horror, etc. Magic's been around for like 30 years now so there's just lots of content here.

The story, such as it were, is about special people called "planeswalkers" who can travel between planes, which is told through the cards themselves and in separate novels and shorts and stuff that nobody reads. Basically ever few months, they print a new Magic set taking place in a new plane or revisiting an old plane, the characters go there, some stuff happens, rinse and repeat.

The card game itself is designed around the 5 types of mana each represented by a different color (Blue, Red, Black, White, Green) each of which have their own themes and focuses. Jace is the resident Blue guy, which usually focuses on the element of water, but also on mind, memory, intelligence, etc.

As for what he's capable of...it's quite a lot actually. He's been depicted making illusions, read minds, shoot force, generate shields, alter memories, etc.




On a final note, I just wanted to add that while Jace's chances are next to zero, as the non video game character thing is pretty damning, MTG is actually very huge in Japan as are card games in general. So I wouldn't even consider him unlikely next to a lot of characters we've already rated on this thread...and my understanding was that wasn't point of the thread anyways. However, if there's legitimately no interest in discussing an unknown character, than beyond it being allowed, I would rather change to a different character since I care more about the discussion than the character itself.
 
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Paraster

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Are there any Magic video games that aren't just virtual versions of the card games to get a sense for how gameplay would work?

What would Jace's playstyle be? Would he be closer to Zelda or Robin?

Would Jace use the cards themselves in his moveset or just the spells they represent?
 

Gengar84

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Regarding the questions of eligibility, the support thread was allowed so I'll allow Jace's day.

Anyways, another question: What's MTG all about? I know approximately jacksquat about this game.
Magic takes place on several different planes each with their own stories and characters. Most of these planes are based on either real world mythology or history. For example,one plane is based on ancient Egypt and another is based on gothic horror. What ties all of these together are characters called planeswalkers that have the ability to travel between planes and are featured in many sets. The most important Planeswalkers overall are probably the original five: Jace Beleren, Ajani Goldmane, Chandra Nalaar, Liliana Vess, and Garruk Wildspeaker.

Jace is focused on blue magic, which is often known for countering other spells and generally controlling the board. He is also known to create illusions that are copies of himself.
 

GolisoPower

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Are there any Magic video games that aren't just virtual versions of the card games to get a sense for how gameplay would work?

What would Jace's playstyle be? Would he be closer to Zelda or Robin?

Would Jace use the cards themselves in his moveset or just the spells they represent?
Honestly, if it were up to me, I'd say he has a limited number of uses of his Specials, a lot like with Banjo & Kazooie's Side B, with each Special representing a type of Card found in the game. Like, Down B would be Minions, Side B would be Spells, Neutral B would be Artifacts, etc. The cards themselves I feel would be visual for his gimmick, but in terms of animations, it'd be like using actual magic to summon/cast minions and spells.

Maybe even have a deck-building mechanic for him similar to how the Mii Fighters' Specials work, so as to tailor him to however you want to play him as.
 
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Pillow

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Are there any Magic video games that aren't just virtual versions of the card games to get a sense for how gameplay would work?

What would Jace's playstyle be? Would he be closer to Zelda or Robin?

Would Jace use the cards themselves in his moveset or just the spells they represent?
I haven't played it, but there's currently an open beta for Magic Legends which I believe is a sort of Diablo style RPG game, though I'm not entirely sure. According to Wikipedia there's actually been quite a lot though I can't speak for their quality. The franchise is first, and foremost a card game.

Playstyle wise he'd be more similar to Zelda. He's almost always depicted using magic and almost never using his fists/weapons.

The cards wouldn't be in the moveset, just what's represented in them. At least that's how I'd envision it. Though it'd really depend on how campy they wanted to make the character. Like I mentioned earlier though, the vibes of Magic isn't really like Yu-gi-oh so it'd definitely feel a bit off.
 
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ahemtoday

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If you wanted me to pick a Magic character for Smash, I'd actually pick Urza because... I mean, it feels weird to have a character that represents just one color.

Oh, uh, we've got a lot of people who don't know anything about MtG, so I should probably explain what the heck I just said.

So one of Magic's core concepts is that there are five colors of magic: white, blue, black, red, and green. Each of these colors have different philosophies and abilities, both in terms of mechanics and lore. (Jace, incidentally, is a blue mage.) Mechanically, an MtG card of a color will usually require mana of that color to use, and have effects within the wheelhouse of that color. (For instance, blue can draw cards and counter other cards.) The more colors of card you have in your deck, the wider range of effects you have access to, but the trickier it is to get the right color of mana. Incidentally, a card can be multiple colors at once, requiring mana from both.

So now I move on to Urza. A prominent character in the early parts of the franchise, and the closest thing to a "main character" they had back then. Or even now, to be honest... Now, while he's most often associated with blue, it's been officially stated that Urza was aligned with all the colors at various points in his life. And he has been given a card that was all five colors. Admittedly, it was his head in a jar in a non-canon comedy set, but still. So I guess because of those two things, that's why I'd choose him.
 

Gengar84

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Another question is which version of Jace you would like to see and what would you want his alternate outfits to be? Personally, I’d go with his original hooded depiction from Llorwyn as his default and his alternate would probably be the same but with his hood down. He could have color variations based on the other colors in Magic (White, Black, Red, and Green).

1622584845053.jpeg
 
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Dan Quixote

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Ooh Amaterasu's close, I'm gonna put my noms towards her today.

lol wow, I didn't even know this day was coming. I actually have several friends who spend exorbitant amounts of cash on MtG cards all the time. Some of them actually resell the really rare ones for a profit... That said, I know surprisingly little about the franchise. I tried downloading the virtual version of the card game off Steam once a couple years ago but it somehow crashed my dang computer despite being a really simple game? Anyways, I know enough about the game to know that it's really about summoning various creatures and putting them on various terrains, and these creatures usually have about one function. Does any one single character actually have enough gameplay depth for a whole fighting game moveset?

I guess you could pull from the various pieces of written down lore that I know were made as side projects to the game, but that's going even further from video games!
 

Pillow

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If you wanted me to pick a Magic character for Smash, I'd actually pick Urza because... I mean, it feels weird to have a character that represents just one color.

Oh, uh, we've got a lot of people who don't know anything about MtG, so I should probably explain what the heck I just said.

So one of Magic's core concepts is that there are five colors of magic: white, blue, black, red, and green. Each of these colors have different philosophies and abilities, both in terms of mechanics and lore. (Jace, incidentally, is a blue mage.) Mechanically, an MtG card of a color will usually require mana of that color to use, and have effects within the wheelhouse of that color. (For instance, blue can draw cards and counter other cards.) The more colors of card you have in your deck, the wider range of effects you have access to, but the trickier it is to get the right color of mana. Incidentally, a card can be multiple colors at once, requiring mana from both.

So now I move on to Urza. A prominent character in the early parts of the franchise, and the closest thing to a "main character" they had back then. Or even now, to be honest... Now, while he's most often associated with blue, it's been officially stated that Urza was aligned with all the colors at various points in his life. And he has been given a card that was all five colors. Admittedly, it was his head in a jar in a non-canon comedy set, but still. So I guess because of those two things, that's why I'd choose him.
It feels kind of like a Fire Emblem situation to me. Nintendo always opts for the main/lord characters even when the franchise had lots more to offer (tomes, weapons other than swords, dragons, etc.) While other characters would represent the gameplay of MTG better, Jace is just used most as the posterchild of the series and thus would be the most likely chosen character in the unlikely event that Sakurai wanted to bring a MTG character to Smash.

Urza is definitely the old school "main character" but his relevance has kind of fallen off quite a bit and iirc he's canonically dead. Plus as you mentioned, he's still associated largely with blue and with artifacts.


Another question is which version of Jace you would like to see and what would you want his alternate outfits to be? Personally, I’d go with his original hooded depiction from Llorwyn as his default and his alternate would probably be the same but with his hood down. He could have color variations based on the other colors in Magic (White, Black, Red, and Green).
Yeah the blue hood seems to be his go-to appearance. I pretty much see the costume situation the same as you do. Though rather than the colors, it's probably better the costumes reflect the other Gatewatch members, which each represent a different color anyway (White/Gold, Green/Brown, Red/Orange, Black/Purple) then perhaps a Grey one for Ugin/Colorless and a pink one cuz why not?
 
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Gengar84

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Dec 9, 2009
Messages
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It feels kind of like a Fire Emblem situation to me. Nintendo always opts for the main/lord characters even when the franchise had lots more to offer (tomes, weapons other than swords, dragons, etc.) While other characters would represent the gameplay of MTG better, Jace is just used most as the posterchild of the series and thus would be the most likely chosen character in the unlikely event that Sakurai wanted to bring a MTG character to Smash.

Urza is definitely the old school "main character" but his relevance has kind of fallen off quite a bit and iirc he's canonically dead. Plus as you mentioned, he's still associated largely with blue and with artifacts.



Yeah the blue hood seems to be his go-to appearance. I pretty much see the costume situation the same as you do.
Yeah, Urza has been dead for quite a while but he has been rising in popularity again in recent years. Wizards recently went back to his home plane of Dominaria with tons of references towards the classic lore. He also got a super pushed card not too long ago in Modern Horizons.

This is the art they used for Urza in his newest card for those that are curious what he looks like:

1622585098384.jpeg
 
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ahemtoday

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 30, 2020
Messages
874
Ooh Amaterasu's close, I'm gonna put my noms towards her today.

lol wow, I didn't even know this day was coming. I actually have several friends who spend exorbitant amounts of cash on MtG cards all the time. Some of them actually resell the really rare ones for a profit... That said, I know surprisingly little about the franchise. I tried downloading the virtual version of the card game off Steam once a couple years ago but it somehow crashed my dang computer despite being a really simple game? Anyways, I know enough about the game to know that it's really about summoning various creatures and putting them on various terrains, and these creatures usually have about one function. Does any one single character actually have enough gameplay depth for a whole fighting game moveset?

I guess you could pull from the various pieces of written down lore that I know were made as side projects to the game, but that's going even further from video games!
The thing about that is Jace is a planeswalker, which is also what the players of the game are meant to be lorewise. And when represented as cards, planeswalkers have about three abilities. And also Jace has been represented directly by twelve cards. We've had Smash characters based off a lot less.
 

Gengar84

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Why should Magic get in as the "card game rep" (that's kinda weird to think about)?

Nominations: Freddy Fazbear xMax
To my knowledge, Magic was actually the very first trading card game ever made. At the very least, it was definitely the first major successful TCG. I think that alone puts it at the top of the list for a strictly TCG rep.

Here’s another question: since Magic is primarily a physical card game, there aren’t a lot of songs that they could pull from that people would recognize. Most Duels of the Planeswalkers and MtG Arena music is pretty ambient and it would probably have to be remixed to fit a high energy game like Smash. What songs would you like to see get in if we get Jace?

Here is my top pick:

It’s the menu/title theme from Duels of the Planeswalkers 2014. I love this song and still listen to it today.
 
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Pillow

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Decided to try my hand at designing a moveset for Jace while the day is young.
Stats:
Weight - Medium / Floaty
Air Speed - Slow
Dash Speed - Slow
Jump Height - Medium (long floaty Double Jump similar to PK kids / Mewtwo)

General Playstyle:
Jace is a slow defensive character that has good tools to deal with being in disadvantage and shift the pace of the game in his favor, but lacks general kill options. He's got some zoning tools, but they generally lack range and has some disjointed hitbox normal moves, that again, lack range.

Gimmick:
Similar to Link's Hero's Shields, Jace will Counterspell projectiles if he's standing still, nullifying them.

Specials:
Neutral B "Fact or Fiction"
Jace sends a phantasm which dashes forward in the direction he's facing. This move can be charged and functions similar to Zelda's Down B. If you press B again at any time during the move, Jace will swap places with his phantasm.

The move deals decent damage and knockback, and can be used to kill. The swapping can be used to escape or to follow up on attacks, but there will be a delayed animation before Jace can act again after swapping.


Side B "Blue Elemental Blast"
Jace shoots forward a wispy blue fireball which travels a short distance. If blue elemental blast clashes with another projectile it will absorb it, increasing in size and gaining more damage, knockback, and distance.

The move functions kind of similarly to wolf's laser, but without the bayonetta and travels about 2/3 of the distance


Down B "Spark Double"
Jace creates 2 illusions that appear on either side of him. By tapping right or left while the illusions fly out of him, he will swap places with that illusion (there's no animation for this). The illusions mimic Jace's movements exactly and will disappear upon taking any amount of damage or if Jace uses an offensive move / grab.

This move is primarily a defensive tool, though it can also be used as an approach option as the illusions will each absorb a single attack before disappearing.


Up B "Brainstorm"
A set of blue symbols circles around Jace's head and gives him a bit of vertical distance if used in the air. Jace's next damaging move becomes empowered dealing more damage (similar to Incineroar's Revenge).

Tilts:
Jab - Jace extends his palm forwards and emits waves of blue energy. Functions identically to Mewtwo's jab except more blue and less purple.

Side Tilt - Jace swipes horizontally with his arm creating a crescent of blue energy that slashes the area immediately in front of him. This move comes out decently fast but does low damage and knockback.

Down Tilt - Jace puts his fingers to his temple and emits a short blast of blue energy from his forehead. This move deals negligible damage and no knockback but will immediately reverse the way an opponent is facing similar to Mario's cape.

Up Tilt - Jace does a swipe with his arm from the direction he's facing to behind him, creating a crescent of blue energy that slashes the area immediately in front of him. Looks and functions similar to Marth's Utilt but with a much smaller hitbox.

Aerials:
Nair - Jace puts fingers on both hands to his temples and emits a quick burst of blue energy. Functions similarly to Nairs like Greninja's and Sephiroth's.

Fair - Jace extends does a hammer swinging motion with his arm and an arc of blue energy follows it. This move has a sweet spot at the bottom of the arc which can spike.

Bair - Jace does a Batman cape smack and swings his cape in front of him.

Dair - Jace does a Batman cape smack and swings his cape below him

Uair - Jace sends a ball of blue energy which starts behind him and travels counterclockwise around him dealing damage to any enemies struck



Smash Attacks:
Forward Smash - Jace punches forward and a blue phantasmal clone of him will partially form in front of him imitating the swing. Does average damage and knockback for a forward smash.

Up Smash - Jace extends his arm with his index and middle finger pointed upwards, which then unleashes a blast of blue energy from his fingertips. This move does pretty good damage and knockback but only hits immediately above Jace similar to Lucas/Ivysaur up Smash.

Down Smash - Jace crosses his arms in a meditative pose then releases a wave of bluish energy that hits both sides. If timed correctly this move will reflect projectiles. It does okay knockback, but has lots of end lag.
 
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