Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

[Technomage]

I've seen some suggestions for Sora being able to switch between multiple different spells rather than just having one for each special, like how the spells work in Kingdom Hearts proper. I suppose we could also implement the Drive forms, but from what I can gather those are entirely different movesets from Sora's base form and might cause complications.

Anyways, SmashBoard's favorite Sora question: Could/should we add Roxas, Xion, and/or Ventus as alts, Echoes, or semiclones (Assuming anything more than alts are possible in this scenario)? After all, they are partially Sora (It's a loooooong story...)

Yeah, I remember posting that question myself, though with Vanitas instead of Xion. :D

 

[GolisoPower]

I've seen some suggestions for Sora being able to switch between multiple different spells rather than just having one for each special, like how the spells work in Kingdom Hearts proper. I suppose we could also implement the Drive forms, but from what I can gather those are entirely different movesets from Sora's base form and might cause complications.

Anyways, SmashBoard's favorite Sora question: Could/should we add Roxas, Xion, and/or Ventus as alts, Echoes, or semiclones (Assuming anything more than alts are possible in this scenario)? After all, they are partially Sora (It's a loooooong story...)

I think it'd make sense for Roxas, Xion, and Ventus to, considering the conditions of the Challenger Packs thus far, make them Alts similar to Hero & Steve. Yes, visually they're different, but considering the constraints, they probably can't be too picky.

 

[cashregister9]

Here is a Spirit Board

Light DDD spoilers

Spoiler

Roxas isn't here because in an Ideal world Sora would have Roxas as a costume (Maybe Xion too)

Also pretend that Sonic is a Kirby with the shadow kirby alt

Riku and Kairi would evolve into

I should have probably added Vanitas but I wanted to keep the board relatively simple just replace Xion with Vanitas and increase her rank and make Xion a costume for Sora

Anyways, SmashBoard's favorite Sora question: Could/should we add Roxas, Xion, and/or Ventus as alts, Echoes, or semiclones (Assuming anything more than alts are possible in this scenario)? After all, they are partially Sora (It's a loooooong story...)

Roxas And Xion could totally work. While Roxas is more known for his dual wielding, he is seen using a single keyblade in 358/2 Days

Ven absolutely could not work, he uses a reverse grip to hold his keyblade.

For The Extra one Vanitas, The Only thing Sora and Vanitas have in common for a costume is their look. A clone could work though.

 

[SharkLord]

Here is a Spirit Board

Light DDD spoilers

Spoiler

Roxas isn't here because in an Ideal world Sora would have Roxas as a costume (Maybe Xion too)

Riku and Kairi would evolve into

I should have probably added Vanitas but I wanted to keep the board relatively simple just replace Xion with Vanitas and increase her rank and make Xion a costume for Sora

Roxas And Xion could totally work. While Roxas is more known for his dual wielding, he is seen using a single keyblade in 358/2 Days

Ven absolutely could not work, he uses a reverse grip to hold his keyblade.

For The Extra one Vanitas, The Only thing Sora and Vanitas have in common for a costume is their look. A clone could work though.

Y'know the fact that there's a single Spirit that's every Xehanort at once just titled "Xehanorts" is absolutely slaying me

 

[ahemtoday]

I've seen some suggestions for Sora being able to switch between multiple different spells rather than just having one for each special, like how the spells work in Kingdom Hearts proper. I suppose we could also implement the Drive forms, but from what I can gather those are entirely different movesets from Sora's base form and might cause complications.

The best idea for a gimmick is to base Sora on his Kingdom Hearts 2 incarnation and use his drive forms. another option is he could have a gimmick that transforms him into his heartless form occasionally where his offense would go up but his defense would drop.

I don't know about those, personally. To me, all of those feel like they're extrapolated from relatively minor elements for the sake of having a gimmick. Which is my least favorite type of gimmick.

• I'm not really sure where this "switching elements" thing got started, but I don't really know what it's based on. I mean, you put different spells on your quick select, but I don't think that's nearly major enough to feel like a cornerstone of the character. I mean, I get it, You want all the elements of magic in there. But there's gotta be a better way to do it. (Also, and I know this isn't true of all the movesets with this concept, but please don't have a special whose only purpose is to change what another special does. That's just silly.)
• The Drive Forms are easily the soundest concept, because it actually is a big part of KH2. But it's basically making Sora into a transformation character, and I have an extremely high bar for how central transformation has to be to a character to deserve a moveset like that. Drive Forms were a one-off thing. I'd probably let that slide for a less-big gimmick, but whole additional movesets? They'd have to be in every game in the series for me to even consider it.
• Anti Form is... uh, a weird concept considering in its debut it was a little rare. I just... don't think it's nearly a big enough part of the games to be in there like that.

Anyways, SmashBoard's favorite Sora question: Could/should we add Roxas, Xion, and/or Ventus as alts, Echoes, or semiclones (Assuming anything more than alts are possible in this scenario)? After all, they are partially Sora (It's a loooooong story...)

I don't know about that one. Alts just feel like they would be an iffy fit considering they fight differently and have different personalities. I feel like I'd rather just see Sora having a full set of alts.

Echoes or semiclones... yeah, they'd be fair, I think.

 

[Gengar84]

This is probably more of a general Smash question but it does pertain to Sora as well. Do you think it’s possible to properly balance healing magic without breaking the character? That would be a fun option for one of Sora’s spells if they could find a way to balance it.

 

[Technomage]

This is probably more of a general Smash question but it does pertain to Sora as well. Do you think it’s possible to properly balance healing magic without breaking the character? That would be a fun option for one of Sora’s spells if they could find a way to balance it.

Hmmm, maybe it could work if given to a character that specializes in defense and survival, but sucks at damaging and killing others?

 

[SharkLord]

This is probably more of a general Smash question but it does pertain to Sora as well. Do you think it’s possible to properly balance healing magic without breaking the character? That would be a fun option for one of Sora’s spells if they could find a way to balance it.

In general, it could work if it's a highly defensive character like the Chosen Undead. For Sora, though, I'd imagine he'd be more of a combo/damage-based character, and a healing spell might not gel well with his kit.

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, SmashBoard's favorite Sora question: Could/should we add Roxas, Xion, and/or Ventus as alts, Echoes, or semiclones (Assuming anything more than alts are possible in this scenario)? After all, they are partially Sora (It's a loooooong story...)

Probably not; even though they're (technically) different versions of Sora, they're very much different characters with different fighting styles.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How likely would that stupid ****ing balloon spell be put in Sora's moveset and would it be as broken as in 3D from the 5 minutes I played of it?

 

[Gengar84]

So something I never quite followed about Kingdom Hearts lore: I think Roxas is Sora’s nobody based on his name but I never really got what Vanitas is. Is he Sora’s heartless? Was there a reason Ventus looks exactly like Roxas? I’m also not really sure how Xion fits in since I didn’t play enough of that game. I’ve only ever beaten the three mainline titles but I did play some of the side games, I just never completed any.

 

[Yiptap]

I’ve never played Kingdom Hearts, but I have a question: would Sora’s inclusion reference Disney in any way?

Noms: Pyramid Head x All

 

[Pillow]

How likely would that stupid ****ing balloon spell be put in Sora's moveset and would it be as broken as in 3D from the 5 minutes I played of it?

I don't really know what you're referring to, but this is the sort of thing I'd like to see in Sora's moveset. The classic JRPG schtick we already have plenty of through other characters like Hero and Cloud. I'd really like to see some of the campier KH abilities incorporated heavily into Sora's movesets, like his Disneyland Merry Go Round **** from KH3.

 

[Gengar84]

I’ve never played Kingdom Hearts, but I have a question: would Sora’s inclusion reference Disney in any way?

Noms: Pyramid Head x All

I’m pretty sure they would leave out any references to Disney since they aren’t video game characters but you never know for sure. There’s a first time for everything. I’m not personally opposed to Smash branching out to other media but I know it would bother a lot of people.

 

[Technomage]

So something I never quite followed about Kingdom Hearts lore: I think Roxas is Sora’s nobody based on his name but I never really got what Vanitas is. Is he Sora’s heartless? Was there a reason Ventus looks exactly like Roxas? I’m also not really sure how Xion fits in since I didn’t play enough of that game. I’ve only ever beaten the three mainline titles but I did play some of the side games, I just never completed any.

Here's the rundown:

1) Xehanort separated Vanitas from Ventus, fracturing the latter's heart
2) Xehanort drops Ventus of on Destiny Islands to let him live his last days in piece
3) Ventus's fractured heart is repaired by a newborn Sora, which is also why Vanitas looks like Sora
4) After the end of Birth By Sleep (which includes Vanitas's fight with Ventus), Ven's heart is fractured again, causing his soul to sleep inside Sora to heal; that's also why Roxas looks like Ven

I don't remember Xion's deal, though.

 

[Pillow]

I’m pretty sure they would leave out any references to Disney since they aren’t video game characters but you never know for sure. There’s a first time for everything. I’m not personally opposed to Smash branching out to other media but I know it would bother a lot of people.

My personal stance on this matter, and I know many will disagree with me here, is without the Disney crossover aspect KH is just a kind of mediocre JRPG with the standard confusing plotlines, edgy villains, and white bread protagonist. Disney content is really what makes the game stand out, and I wouldn't want to see that cut from Sora just for the sake of keeping Smash "pure" of non gaming characters.

It's not like Disney as a corporation is completely divorced from the gaming industry either. They've had a lot of very successful and well-received games dating all the way back to the SNES. It's just that Disney is so titanic that most people associate its characters with things other than gaming.

It doesn't need to include much, but I personally would like to see Donald/Goofey and maybe Mickey if that's possible, as part of Sora's taunts or stage background.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't really know what you're referring to, but this is the sort of thing I'd like to see in Sora's moveset. The classic JRPG schtick we already have plenty of through other characters like Hero and Cloud. I'd really like to see some of the campier KH abilities incorporated heavily into Sora's movesets, like his Disneyland Merry Go Round **** from KH3.

Looking up footage made me realize I was mistaken with what it did, I could have sworn it spun around you when cast

 

[amageish]

Probably not; even though they're (technically) different versions of Sora, they're very much different characters with different fighting styles.

To be fair, you could say the same about the Heroes and definitely could say that about the Zombie and Enderman. Smash's attitude towards alts lately has been very "Put them in; ask questions later."

I’ve never played Kingdom Hearts, but I have a question: would Sora’s inclusion reference Disney in any way?

Noms: Pyramid Head x All

I honestly do not know because of licensing, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

People already mentioned Advent Children as "non-game content," but we've had stuff that technically originated from media other then video games since Brawl with music that first appeared in Kirby Right Back At Ya. I don't think Sakurai's wanting Smash to be a gaming-focused crossover would ban him from including characters who originated outside of video games as long as they are clearly the versions of those characters that are famous for appearing in video games. Heck, we already have plenty of spirits that come from folklore and public domain works; Kingdom Hearts bringing Disney would be a step beyond that, but not a game-breaking one IMO.

Plus, Sakurai is a person. He can choose to include Mickey with Sora while not choosing to add Goku to the roster...

Noms: Farmer x 10

 

[SharkLord]

I’ve never played Kingdom Hearts, but I have a question: would Sora’s inclusion reference Disney in any way?

Noms: Pyramid Head x All

I think it could happen, but it's a unique situation and we won't know for sure unless it actually happens. The main things are that A: Disney owns the rights to Kingdom Hearts and you'll need to contact them one way or another, and B: Technically speaking the Disney characters wouldn't be the ones fighting; Sora would. Therefore, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to get some fun little cameos to break the internet while you're negotiating for Sora.

 

[Perkilator]

To be fair, you could say the same about the Heroes and definitely could say that about the Zombie and Enderman. Smash's attitude towards alts lately has been very "Put them in; ask questions later."

To be fair, neither Xion, Roxas or Ventus are really comparable to a bunch of silent-in-their-games RPG heroes who follow the same core gameplay or some blocky skins for an avatar in a game that goes on forever.

 

[amageish]

To be fair, neither Xion, Roxas or Ventus are really comparable to a bunch of silent-in-their-games RPG heroes who follow the same core gameplay or some blocky skins for an avatar in a game that goes on forever.

I do get that and I get wanting a singular canon complaint Sora over Sora and canon-stretching alts, but I still think Smash's attitude has been leaning in on the alts lately... though maybe it's just when they have the resources leftover to do less-logical things.

 

[SharkLord]

I do get that and I get wanting a singular canon complaint Sora over Sora and canon-stretching alts, but I still think Smash's attitude has been leaning in on the alts lately... though maybe it's just when they have the resources leftover to do less-logical things.

On the other hand, we didn't get any composite ARMS reps or anything like that. Seeing as the Heroes share the same general role and abilities and Zombie is intentionally modeled after Steve, Enderman is the only real headscratcher that makes you go "Wait, why the heck is this guy an alt?" Actually, compared to Enderman, the likes of Roxas and Xion over Sora sounds tame. That being said, from what I can gather they'd work better if they were at least Echo Fighters, if not full semiclones.

 

[amageish]

On the other hand, we didn't get any composite ARMS reps or anything like that. Seeing as the Heroes share the same general role and abilities and Zombie is intentionally modeled after Steve, Enderman is the only real headscratcher that makes you go "Wait, why the heck is this guy an alt?" Actually, compared to Enderman, the likes of Roxas and Xion over Sora sounds tame. That being said, from what I can gather they'd work better if they were at least Echo Fighters, if not full semiclones.

This is true! Enderman is frankly super bizarre, especially as his Smash model neither looks like the player skin of Enderman you can use in Minecraft or like an actual-size Enderman NPC... and said NPC cannot do 95% of what Steve can do... And I do know some DQ fans who are very annoyed about the composite Hero kit, so maybe it looks sillier if you are more familiar that IP, but I cannot speak to that one personally.

I'm not trying to argue Roxas/Xion would be alts or should be alts... but Smash has definitely had a history of playing with canon and I don't think this would be going further then we've ever seen before or anything.

 

[Commander_Alph]

I feel like with Enderman the way that they justify him is pretty weird but all else actually worked considering it's a more advance version of the skin from Minecraft which I think is what they intended to achieve, granted they could just have Drowned or Husk which I'm totally okay.

 

[SharkLord]

Alright, so let's talk the different forms you may have heard about.

In Kingdom Hearts 2, Sora gets the Drive Forms. There's the physical Valor Form, the magic Wisdom Form, a combination of the two in Master Form, and the powerful Final Form. In other words, Ultraman Orb and Geed. Aside from those, there's the AntiForm that acts as a punishment for abusing the forms too much, and the remaster adds in Limit Form, which acts as a callback to the original game.

In Kingdom Hearts 3, we instead have Formchange, which is much more detailed and complex. Instead of just altering your stats, they also change the Keyblade into something else entirely. There's Second Form, which references KH2, the defensive Guardian Form, the physical Strike Form, the long-range Element Form, and the speedy Blitz Form. There's also Rage Form, which is a critical-health desperation thing.

There's also a couple unique forms; Light Form and Darkness Form, triggered by one of Roxas' Keyblades, Double Form, which uses both, and Ultimate Form, which is accessed through the Ultima Weapon.

For further reading, I direct you to here and here. If we need to adapt a form-switching thing into a moveset, I think the Drive Forms would be much easier than the Formchanges.

 

[Gengar84]

Alright, so let's talk the different forms you may have heard about.

In Kingdom Hearts 2, Sora gets the Drive Forms. There's the physical Valor Form, the magic Wisdom Form, a combination of the two in Master Form, and the powerful Final Form. In other words, Ultraman Orb and Geed. Aside from those, there's the AntiForm that acts as a punishment for abusing the forms too much, and the remaster adds in Limit Form, which acts as a callback to the original game.

In Kingdom Hearts 3, we instead have Formchange, which is much more detailed and complex. Instead of just altering your stats, they also change the Keyblade into something else entirely. There's Second Form, which references KH2, the defensive Guardian Form, the physical Strike Form, the long-range Element Form, and the speedy Blitz Form. There's also Rage Form, which is a critical-health desperation thing.

There's also a couple unique forms; Light Form and Darkness Form, triggered by one of Roxas' Keyblades, Double Form, which uses both, and Ultimate Form, which is accessed through the Ultima Weapon.

For further reading, I direct you to here and here. If we need to adapt a form-switching thing into a moveset, I think the Drive Forms would be much easier than the Formchanges.

Yeah, I’m a bigger fan of the drive forms overall. I think Sora’s outfits in his other forms look really cool and they were simpler too. I also really like his Anti form and it was fun to use despite being a punishment mechanic. Even if Sora doesn’t end up using any kind of power up mechanic in Smash, I think they would at least make for some cool alternate outfits.

 

[Kirbeh]

As much as I like the KH2 Drive Forms, my main concern with them and the multitude of other forms is just how much extra work they would require to implement. The Drive Forms change how Sora plays enough to the point that each form could technically be a separate moveset all their own. Unless you pick just one, I just don't see such a thing being very feasible.

Even at one form, Valor for example, let's say with no changes to specials, you'd still have to change all of his ground normals, aerials, and smash attacks. Rather than being just a buff state, it's basically just a separate character locked behind a meter. (Using Valor as the example again; if they were to put that much work into creating a dual Keyblade moveset for Valor Sora, I'd rather just have Roxas.)

It also depends on how far you want to go in properly representing the forms. I imagine most people would be really disappointed if they added Drives that amounted to palette swaps with slight buffs to certain moves/stats. But again, if you actually make the forms accurate, each one has completely different stats, attacks, and movement options.

I can't really speak on KH3 forms as I never used anything but the Kingdom Key, so I never toyed around with the formechanges. I only ever used Second Form, which I think would be far easier to implement, but also a pretty boring option as far as most KH fans are concerned I'd imagine. Plus that's going off the assumption he's based on KH3 Sora.

I know that fans want Sora to get something really unique that sets him apart and also represents KH well, but I just don't think form changes are the way to go.

 

[Technomage]

I'm going to share my ideas on what Sora's alternate costumes should be (assuming that making other characters his alts wouldn't work).

1) KH3 Sora
2) Visor from the Big Hero 6 World
3) Vampire Form from the Nightmare Before Christmas World
4) Toy Form from the Toy Story World
5) Monster Form from the Monsters Inc. World
6) Pirate Outfit from the Pirates of the Caribbean World
7) Cyberspace Outfit from the Tron World
8) Black-and-White Form from the Classic Mickey Mouse World

Any other ideas?

 

[Commander_Alph]

I'm going to share my ideas on what Sora's alternate costumes should be (assuming that making other characters his alts wouldn't work).

1) KH3 Sora
2) Visor from the Big Hero 6 World
3) Vampire Form from the Nightmare Before Christmas World
4) Toy Form from the Toy Story World
5) Monster Form from the Monsters Inc. World
6) Pirate Outfit from the Pirates of the Caribbean World
7) Cyberspace Outfit from the Tron World
8) Black-and-White Form from the Classic Mickey Mouse World

Any other ideas?

Idk if you intend to exclude them but it's a sin to not have KH1 or 2 Sora as an alt (assuming his alternate form is halted due to its close ties with the movies he's in) but honestly if that happened I want his Nightmare Before Christmas outfit, I really like the movie.

 

[Technomage]

Idk if you intend to exclude them but it's a sin to not have KH1 or 2 Sora as an alt (assuming his alternate form is halted due to its close ties with the movies he's in) but honestly if that happened I want his Nightmare Before Christmas outfit, I really like the movie.

Well, the reason I didn't include KH2 Sora is because it's too similar to his KH3 version to be worthwhile. As for KH1 Sora, I wasn't sure about adding him since that'd require different voice lines, which would seem weird that only one of his outfits would have that (plus, I'm not sure if that would be something Sakurai would be willing to do).

 

[Perkilator]

I'm going to share my ideas on what Sora's alternate costumes should be (assuming that making other characters his alts wouldn't work).

1) KH3 Sora
2) Visor from the Big Hero 6 World
3) Vampire Form from the Nightmare Before Christmas World
4) Toy Form from the Toy Story World
5) Monster Form from the Monsters Inc. World
6) Pirate Outfit from the Pirates of the Caribbean World
7) Cyberspace Outfit from the Tron World
8) Black-and-White Form from the Classic Mickey Mouse World

Any other ideas?

Well, for my post I wanted to stick primarily to his KH3 and KH2 outfits (since he wears them both in 3), with each recolor referencing other characters or the like to do with Sora.

1. KH3 outfit (default)
2. KH2 outfit
3. Riku (KH3 black)
4. Roxas (KH2 white/red)
5. Kairi (KH3 pink)
6. Limit Form (KH2 white)
7. Donald Duck (KH3 blue)
8. Goofy (KH2 green)

 

[SharkLord]

Sorry for being kinda hands-off for this day, but I'll drop by to give Sora that second extension. He's still got some discussion going on.

 

[PeridotGX]

Oh yeah, I need to explain how to purchace Kingdom Hearts. There's a bundle of all the games but the Rhythm Spinoff on PS4, that's the best option to get the series (though it's way more expensive digitally, so go physical). None of the main KH games have been on Nintendo systems, but some of the "side" games are (you need to play all of them to understand the plot, though. This includes the rhythm spinoff.)

 

[ahemtoday]

If we're putting alts together, I guess I'll put together a kind-of-boring list. I tend to prioritize visual clarity over cool references, so this list of alts is gonna reflect that a little.

• Default. KH2 Sora, because I think the more colorful design looks better from a distance. Serves as the "black alt".
• Valor Form. Red alt.
• Wisdom Form. Blue alt.
• Master Form. Yellow alt.
• Final Form. White alt.
• Green recolor of Master Form inspired by Blitz Form from KH3.
• Violet recolor of Valor Form inspired by Riku's KH3 design.
• Pink recolor of Wisdom Form inspired by Kairi.

 

[Technomage]

Slow hour for this thread, huh? To make it more active, I propose a question: If Sora enters the roster and he came with an Assist Trophy, who should the AT be?

 

[Perkilator]

Slow hour for this thread, huh? To make it more active, I propose a question: If Sora enters the roster and he came with an Assist Trophy, who should the AT be?

Maybe Riku?

 

[GolisoPower]

Slow hour for this thread, huh? To make it more active, I propose a question: If Sora enters the roster and he came with an Assist Trophy, who should the AT be?

I would say maybe...Donald & Goofy? These two are essentially game-original interpretations of the Disney cartoon characters, different enough to not exactly be the actual cartoon characters themselves, and are essentially so closely tied to Sora in the Kingdom Hearts series that it's kind hard to see them not in a game together.

 

[Technomage]

These two are essentially game-original interpretations of the Disney cartoon characters, different enough to not exactly be the actual cartoon characters themselves

Hmmmm, I would like to know what Sakurai himself would think about that argument... Would it convince him to add Donald and Goofy?

 

[SharkLord]

Slow hour for this thread, huh? To make it more active, I propose a question: If Sora enters the roster and he came with an Assist Trophy, who should the AT be?

Ansem appears and breaks the opponent's brain by starting off a Xehanort role call

 

[GolisoPower]

Hmmmm, I would like to know what Sakurai himself would think about that argument... Would it convince him to add Donald and Goofy?

In a hypothetical Mr. Sakurai Presents "Sora", I...honestly have no clue. It'd be interesting to hear his thoughts. He's always been rather informative about certain parts related to DLC characters in his presentations (Final Fantasy's music copyright issues, the history of Neo Geo & SNK, technical issues of making Driver & Blade mechanics for Rex & Pyra, etc), so him teaching us about game-exclusive interpretations of non-video game characters would be pretty fun.