Character Discussion

[Deleted member]

since I belive that some characters are lacking some attention, I thought this would be a nice idea:
how about we discuss each and every character, including those who might not actually need it, to see if we can improve their balance and such a bit.
since we don't really have any ordering yet, I think going alphabetically would be the handiest.

after we think that there is nothing left to discuss on a character we move on to the next, etc. etc.

I also prefer that we do not think about codes taht we do not yet have, the exception goes to the IC infinite, which we agreed to put in anyway.

dump your thoughts on this here, and if enough people think that this is a good idea, we can start with Bowser.

PS the actual discussion woul ofcourse be in the respective character thread

 

[The Cape]

For this idea. I feel that its best to discuss EVERY option to optomize the character.

Example:

Mario:

D tilt winddown sped up
D tilt higher base KB
Fair overall faster with extended hitboxes.
Fair less ALR

This would make Mario basically perfect and function well

 

[goodoldganon]

Before we start discussing characters, I'd like to discuss which characters we think are good to go the way they are, assuming this set here.

I'd consider all of these characters complete. Some may need a minor tweak, but it's something we are waiting for a code on. Things like Pika's d-throw.

1. Luigi
2. Bowser
3. DK
4. Diddy
5. Wario
6. Link
7. Sheik (might have to try a F-smash fix again)
8. Toon Link
9. Ganondorf (especially if Giza can 'fix' side-b)
10. Samus
11. Pit
12. ROB
13. Kirby (inhale needs the extra hitstun ID)
14. D3
15. Olimar
16. Fox
17. Falco
18. Pikachu
19. Charizard
20. Squirtle
21. Jigglypuff
22. Lucas
23. Snake
24. Mr. G and W

Here are the characters I think we need to make a slight altercation too or might still need a lot of work.

• Mario: Cape thinks since we aren't limited on frame speed anymore, we should reinstate D-tilt
• Peach: We need to discuss F-air. Is it too good? Do people need to learn to not shield it? She also needs grab on backwards during Up-b and a possible second jump increase.
• Yoshi: Needs his no freefall after Egg Roll polished up. Overall though, he is a very solid, underrated character.
• Zelda: Bigger toe. Very slight
• ZSS: Yeroc wanted to mess with something here since his first changes weren't liked. I think she is fine, but I put her here just in case.
• ICs: Infinites, though I think we need to discuss that again...
• MK: Planking and a possible tornado size nerf
• Wolf: He needs something. The shine change isn't working out and he feels really bland and straight forward, especially compared to Fox and Falco.
• C. Falcon: We should go back over his gravity to see if we can fix those chain grabs on him. Also, Nipple Spike and Down-b resets double jump are popular in Nightly Builds.
• Ivysaur- Let's see how the Cape tweaks work out.
• Lucario: Aura stock needs to be gone and I think Extreme Speed needs some fine tweaking. I'd also like to speed up the end of his U-smash. The invisible hitbox is dumb but it would also allow him to protect himself from the sides faster.
• Marth- Is he ok after the damage nerf?
• Ike: People think he's very meh. I don't know what to do with him, he seems ok, but he is nothing special. Like Wolf, I'd like to take a hard look at him.
• Ness: See Wolf and Ike
• Sonic: I have no idea if we are done with him, I never understand WTF we are trying to do with him, so w/e.

Overall, I think most of the characters are very good and only need 1 or 2 small tweaks to be Gold worthy. Sadly, most of them are throw modifiers and things we don't have. I agree there are some characters lacking, but over 75% of the characters feel amazing. So...ya...I think most guys are good.

To stay on your original topic...Bowser is fine. If we want to address something, we need to address fire breaths, especially as edgeguards. They are really stupid, but I'd be a hypocrite to use that as my excuse. I hate em, but I can deal with em.

 

[Deleted member]

marth is on neither of your lists.

I agree that some character don't neccesarily need work, but I feel that we never really looked into. diddy comes to mind, who hasn't been given a single change. you can't tell me he transferred over that well.

and ok since we really need the throw mod, we can include that in discussion. the reason I'd rather not talk about codes we don't have is because we can't test proposed changes, and we get random stuff like the ness "airmine" idea.

 

[shanus]

diddy is amazing paprika. amazing.

 

[Deleted member]

yes and marth is amazing too. honestly have we ever even considered LOOKING at diddy?

 

[goodoldganon]

yes and marth is amazing too. honestly have we ever even considered LOOKING at diddy?

We have looked at ways to fix his recovery, but keep coming back to the point that it balances him. We have also talked about nanner nerfs. I'm all ears to ideas, I just can't see Diddy needing anything, buffs or nerfs.

 

[The Cape]

Bananas do 3 damage instead of 5. Thats all he really needs.

My reasoning is that with the faster run speed the bananas make Diddy even better and his combo game has enhanced a lot. With 5 damage bananas we are just giving him free damage.

 

[Revven]

Seems fair, Cape.

 

[The Cape]

This is my personal final polish list. Things I think we should look at for Polish sake. If there are no complaints then I will work on these this weekend with Giza as my final contribution.

Yoshi:
Aerial Side B momentum
Poop more stun
U smash more KBG
Throws +2 damage

Wolf:
UpB landing lag much less on soft landing
upB weak hits link better

Pikachu:
Uair more base and higher angle
Side B more winddown

Squirtle:
F tilt .8x winddown

MK:
Tornado at .8 size

Falcon:
First hit nair comes out a wee bit faster?

Pit:
U smash last hit more KBG

Fox:
Less winddown bair

Lucario:
Less winddown nair

ICers infinite

Wario and Pika CGs

Better linking 2 hit moves? (Link bair and ZSS fair were done)
other such moves:
Pit F smash
Diddy F smash

Rapid jabs (make one or two hitboxes hit upwards (90 degrees)
Characters with problem rapid jabs (to varying degrees):
Diddy
Falcon
Sheik
Falco
Fox
Kirby
MK
DDD
Pit
Ivy
Pikachu
GW (first jab too)

 

[goodoldganon]

People are against the Tornado nerf and frankly I like the one we have in place. It's more reasonable and it won't look absurd. I'm pretty sure the tornado IS the hitbox and I REALLY REALLY want to avoid screwing up the games animations.

I think most of the others are just fluff, but if we want every character to be 'perfect' then fluff has to be adressed.

Also, if you do go about adjusting multi-jabs, it's only fair fire breaths get adjusted as well.

 

[The Cape]

Few new ideas:

Snake:
F tilt second hit and U tilt smaller hitboxes
Now on C4 comes out faster
React faster out of upB (like be able to release instantly if you want to)

Sonic:
Move faster out of upB

MK:
D tilt and F tilt need to come out slower, same winddown
D throw needs serious work
Grounded upB no invincible


I can actually do most of this, shall I?

Edit:
Also: U tilts:
Diddy
Lucario (weak hits)
Lucas (both hits)
ROB (all hits)
Snake
DK
Falco (second hit)
Luigi
GW
Pikachu
TL (and U smash)
Link

 

[goodoldganon]

If we nerf snakes tilts we aren't doing both. It seems F-tilt is the bigger culprit here...

 

[The Cape]

Fox bair:
Hitbox comes out frame 9
Ends frame 49

Thinking something like ending on 39 instead

Falcon Nair
First hitbox out on frame 7
Second hitbox 20
Ends frame 45

Make it come out frame 5? And Nipple spike (complete character)

Metaknight:
Grounded Shuttle Loop:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out

Make frames 1-4 half speed, frames 5-8 20 times speed
Removes invincibility and still comes out same speed

D tilt:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

F tilt:
1-2 startup
3-4 1st hit hitbox out
5
6-7 2nd hit hitbox out
8
9-10 3rd hit hitbox out
11-40 cooldown

Make both come out something like frame 5, same cool down.

Lucario:
N-Air
Complete on: 72
Hitbox 1 out on: 6
Hitbox 1 in on: 15
Hitbox 2 out on: 19
Hitbox 2 in on: 28

Make the 44 winddown frames to 22 or so.

Squirtle:
Forward Tilt:
Start up: 1-3
Hit: 4
End: 17

Make it end 25 or so.

Snake:
Grabs Cypher frame 4
Cant drop til 46 (42 frames later)

Thinking something like being able to drop it something like 5-10 frames after he grabs it.

C4:
NOW! is on frame 29
Thinking something like frame 15 or so.


Mario fair:
Doc hit is frame 16, Spike is 17-19, flub is 20-21

Want to make it Doc hit 14-16 and flub from 20-22

 

[leafgreen386]

On the pikachu stuff...

Utilt doesn't chain into itself more than three times against anyone, and has huge growth, which actually makes it difficult to combo from when they get to higher percents. If you up its base, you're going to need to drop its growth while you're at it.

I don't really get what you're trying to do with pika's uair, there. More base? Higher angle? What's wrong with the way it acts now?

I don't think there's anything wrong with his sideB that it would need more winddown. It's already very easy to punish if he lands on the stage with it.

In fact, on most of those utilts I'm looking at, I don't see them as a problem. If something can chain 2-3 times against a character... so what? It does somewhere between 12% and 24% depending on the utilt's damage and the number of times it repeats, and really isn't that big of a problem. Not that interesting to watch, but it's over quickly and the match continues without it really being any more broken.

 

[The Cape]

Ok, remove Pika stuff except U tilt.

Got all the frame speed stuff done except MK upB (need his ID for the grounded one)

PMed it to Shanus, have him throw it in a set to test it all out.

 

[Revven]

Fox Bair does 15% when sweetspotted, it's easy to land after Drill > Utilt > Utilt > Bair (or even after one Utilt, depends on the %) you get an easy 30% every time, until much later percents. It is ridiculously easy to land Bair, nerf the sweetspot damage!

Since, y'know, we don't want him racking up damage as easily or as quick as he did before. And, what about Uair? It's SDIable right? Making the second hit nigh useless (the stronger one) thus doesn't need a damage nerf, amirite?

Dair still seems to do a lot but, eh, it's just me.

Edit: All of this comes from playing with Fox yesterday against SciFiGuy in actual matches, I racked up damage ridiculously quick by using Bair a lot more than before. I am not kidding you, that sweetspot damage is REDONKULOUS.

 

[Team Giza]

Some of the requested data

Metaknight's grounded up+B
hb1
1609505A 02046114
hb2
1609505A 02050114
hb3
16061E46 02046114
hb4
16066400 0206E114

~Uptilts~
Diddy
1B07821C 00050028

Lucario
hb1
21068221 15060028
hb2
21068226 15060028
hb3
2106822B 15060028

Lucas
hb1
1A036400 00078028
hb2
1A086928 0305F028
hb3
1A086928 0005F028
hb4
1A04640A 0305A028
hb5
1A04640A 0005A028
hb6
1A04640A 0005D028

ROB
hb1
23036400 0005A028
hb2
23036400 00069028
hb3
23055037 0005A028
hb4
23064037 0005A028

Snake
hb1
2E0D5F37 0005F028
hb2
2E0C5F2D 00054028

DK
hb1
01096928 00064028
hb2
010A6E28 00064028
hb3
010B7328 00064028

Falco
hb1
13046400 02064028
hb2
13036400 02064028
hb3
13036400 0210E028
hb4
1305961E 0205A028
hb5
1305961E 02061028

Luigi
hb1
08097F1E 00064028
hb2
08097D1E 00064028
hb3
08097B1E 00064028

GW
hb1
12087F1E 00064028
hb2
12087D1E 00064028
hb3
12087B1E 00064028

Pikachu
hb1
07077C28 00060028
hb2
07067C2D 00058028
hb3
07057C2D 00058028

Link
hb1
02097A1E 0205F028
hb2
0209821E 02055028
hb3
02097C1E 02055028
hb4
02097B1E 02055028

Toon Link
hb1
29097A1E 0205F028
hb2
2909821E 02055028
hb3
29097C1E 02055028
hb4
29097B1E 02055028

Toon Link's upsmash
hb1
290F5D1E 02064032
hb2
290F5D1E 02060032


~Rapid jabs~
Diddy
hb1
1B026400 0003C025
hb2
1B016400 0003C025

Falcon
hb1
09023200 00169025
hb2
09011400 0005A025

Sheik
hb1
0E021408 02169025
hb2
0E011408 02169025

Falco
hb1
13016400 0201E025
hb2
13016400 02032025
hb3
13016400 02050025

Fox
hb1
06021405 00169025
hb2
06011403 00169025

Kirby
hb1
05026400 00169025
hb2
05016400 00169025

MK
hb1
16022808 02169025
hb2
16012808 02169025

DDD
2002141E 0001E025

Pit
hb1
17016400 0206E025
hb2
17018219 02014025
hb3
17018219 0200A025
hb4
1702641E 02169025

Ivy
hb1
1F021414 1101E025
hb2
1F020014 1101E025
hb3
1F011414 1101E025
hb4
1F010014 1101E025

Pikachu
07021E04 00000024

GW
hb1
12016400 00046025
hb2
12026400 00046025
hb3
12036400 00046025

GW's first jab
hb1
12036400 00053024
hb2
12036400 00055024

Charizard's flamethrower
hb1
7302320C 0503C000
hb2
73011E0A 0503C000

Bowser's firebreath
hb1
6E021E09 05037000
hb2
6E011405 05037000

Pit's side+B
hb1
17013E32 0201911B
hb2
17012800 0204611B
hb3
17026400 0201911B
hb4
17016400 0212C11B

~Random Values~
Snake's "Now!" = 0119

Yoshi's neutral B
040D503C 00014112
(opponent in egg = 00EC, 000E on release)

Yoshi's upsmash
04105317 0004B032

Yoshi's egg throw
hb1
6E012814 00046000
hb2 (explosion)
6E082828 00046001

Animation after Kirby steals power = 00D3

 

[goodoldganon]

What about the Kirby swallow Giza?

 

[Team Giza]

Forgot it. I don't think it would be fixed with the hitbox code anything. The changed the animation after Kirby steals power might be able to help make the move safe though.

 

[goodoldganon]

Hey Cape, according to DS and Leaf Roy is still invincibile to the NEW frame 5 on Up-b. Remember how we sped that move up to remove the invincibility? Didn't work. If anything, your nerf will be a buff

 

[The Cape]

Which means that invincibiity frames may be hard coded onto the move and we in fact need another code to remove them. So the MK upB I worked out probaby still has its invincible frames.

 

[goodoldganon]

Which means that invincibiity frames may be hard coded onto the move and we in fact need another code to remove them. So the MK upB I worked out probaby still has its invincible frames.

If we get that code hopefully it can add SA or invincibility to moves too, could open up cool ways to buff a few heavies. Either way, yes if what Leaf and DS said is true then invinci frames are hardcoded.

 

[Team Giza]

Wolf's up+B
hb1
2C026400 00064114
hb2
2C014600 0002D117
hb3
2C010C00 0016D117
hb4
2C013200 00169117
hb5
2C04733C 00169118

 

[The Cape]

Ok. Finally finished the jabs and such. Shouldnt wall lock, dont know about sheild locks (this has a few other things too):

Bowser's firebreath (20 base from 9 and 5)
hb1
6E021E09 05037000
021E1405 00370000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
6E011405 05037000
01141405 00370000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Charizard's flamethrower (20 base from 12 and 10)
hb1
7302320C 0503C000
02321405 003C0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
73011E0A 0503C000
011E1405 003C0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Pikachu jab (20 angle from 0, 10 base from 4)
07021E04 00000024
021E0A00 00140000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

DDD jab (20 base, 0 growth)
2002141E 0001E025
02001400 001E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Kirby jab (all hitboxes now 20 base and no growth, 50 angle)
hb1
05026400 00169025
02001400 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
05016400 00169025
01001400 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Falco jab (all hitboxes now 50 angle)
hb1
13016400 0201E025
01640002 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb3
13016400 02050025
01640002 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Sheik jab (20 base, angle to 50)
hb1
0E021408 02169025
02001400 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
0E011408 02169025
01001400 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Pit jab (all hitboxes now 20 base and 0 growth, 80 angle)
hb1
17016400 0206E025
01001402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
17018219 02014025
01001402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb3
17018219 0200A025
01001402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb4
1702641E 02169025
02001402 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Side+B (35 base, 10 growth, 35 angle)
hb1
17013E32 0201911B
010A2302 00230000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb2
17012800 0204611B
010A2302 00230000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb3
17026400 0201911B
020A2302 00230000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000
hb4
17016400 0212C11B
010A2302 00230000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Yoshi:
Down B  (85 growth from 70 on falling hitbox)
04046400 00050115
04640000 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000

040F463C 00050115
0F553C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

6F042832 00032000
04283200 00320000
FFFFFFFF 3FC00000

Dtilt (tail tip 8 dmg from 5, 15 angle from special 20, 1.25x size)
04051E41 00169029
081E4100 000F0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Wolf:
Nair (first hit gets +10 growth, rest get 80 degree angle)
hb1
2C086428 00169033
086E2800 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb2
2C03640A 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb3
2C016400 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb4
2C010000 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Up+B (all hits 105 base and no growth)
hb1
2C026400 00064114
02006E00 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb2
2C014600 0002D117
01006E00 002D0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb3
2C010C00 0016D117
01006E00 016D0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb4
2C013200 00169117
01006E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

Uair (1.25x size)
2C0C4B1E 02050033
0C4B1E02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Utilt (all hitboxes 1.25x size)
2C0A781E 00050028
0A781E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C09731E 00050028
09731E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C08731E 00050028
08731E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C0A731E 00058028
0A731E00 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Ness downB (50 base and 0 growth from 100 growth and 0 base; 330 angle from special 20; 1.5x size)
0A006400 00169120
00003200 014A0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Diddy Usmash (first 4 hits 1.25x, last hit base from 70; first four hits 30 base from 0)
1B051E00 0005F032
051E1E00 005F0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

1B053200 0005F032
05321E00 005F0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

1B054600 0005F032
05461E00 005F0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

1B054600 0005A032
05461E00 005A0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

1B064646 0005F032
06465500 005F0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

zss sideB (weak hitboxes 1.25x)
18031E50 0301E113
031E5003 001E0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

18031E32 0301E133
031E3203 001E0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

18031E1E 0301E113
031E1E03 001E0000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000


Hitbox Shift Mod:
wolf Uair (shifted down)
2C0C4B1E 02050033
C0200000 00000000

Edit:

Yoshi's upsmash (Growth from 83 to 93)
04105317 0004B032
105D1700 004B0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

 

[The Cape]

When Ness PKT2 hits someone with the first half it changes to this hitbox:

Ness PKT2 on hit
20000000 00169045

2006641E 00169045


Possible to play with this to stop the slowdown?

 

[leafgreen386]

Wolf:
Nair (first hit gets +10 growth, rest get 80 degree angle)
hb1
2C086428 00169033
086E2800 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb2
2C03640A 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb3
2C016400 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000
hb4
2C010000 00169033
03323C00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

I already did his nair. The angle on the hits are fine, and the first hit needs less growth, not more.

Wolf nair

2C086428 00169033
05003200 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

2C03640A 00169033
04003200 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

2C016400 00169033
03003200 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

2C010000 00169033
03003200 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

All hitboxes 50 base and 0 growth. I also changed the damage spread to 5-4-3-3 instead of the current 8-4-2-1, as well.

Up+B (all hits 105 base and no growth)
hb1
2C026400 00064114
02006E00 00640000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb2
2C014600 0002D117
01006E00 002D0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb3
2C010C00 0016D117
01006E00 016D0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

hb4
2C013200 00169117
01006E00 01690000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

If it works, cool. Can't wait to try it out.

Uair (1.25x size)
2C0C4B1E 02050033
0C4B1E02 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

Hitbox Shift Mod:
wolf Uair (shifted down)
2C0C4B1E 02050033
C0200000 00000000

Nice. Will test.

Utilt (all hitboxes 1.25x size)
2C0A781E 00050028
0A781E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C09731E 00050028
09731E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C08731E 00050028
08731E00 00500000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

2C0A731E 00058028
0A731E00 00580000
FFFFFFFF 3FA00000

This isn't what the utilt needed. It needed less endlag.

Wolf utilt

2C190028 40000000

2x speed frame 25, cuts off 5 frames endlag.



Also, my dair revision:

Wolf dair

2C0F5A06 0210E033
0F542A02 010E0000
FFFFFFFF 3F800000

90 growth -> 84 growth, 32 base -> 42 base

Now, we just need to see what can be done about the shine and we need to make it so wolf can DI after using upB, and I'd say he's ready to ship.

 

[goodoldganon]

Keep the shine. It makes him unique in that his is defensive, not offensive like the others.

 

[leafgreen386]

Keep the shine. It makes him unique in that his is defensive, not offensive like the others.

Or... not? Lucien and I agreed that it'd be great if we could get shine -> aerial working without causing shine -> dsmash, which would be a little too good.

 

[Revven]

There isn't an ID for the aerial version of it leaf, they are the same on the ground and in the air. I do not know how you're going to get it to do shine > aerial but not shine > Dsmash/Fsmash...

 

[The Cape]

For the Wolf nair. That was a test from a conversation with Lucien. He was trying to find a way to make it more of a tech chase move and this kind of works. Give it a try.

The first hit is a GTFO and the others pop up for setups. Makes it great for tech chases.

 

[leafgreen386]

There isn't an ID for the aerial version of it leaf, they are the same on the ground and in the air. I do not know how you're going to get it to do shine > aerial but not shine > Dsmash/Fsmash...

Actually, PK said the animation IDs just weren't working. 132 came up for the entire duration of the shine, whereas there were three different action IDs - 115 (start), 11A (reflect, probably), and 11C (endlag). There wouldn't be less animation IDs than action IDs (or at least there shouldn't be if the programmers were sane), so I'm just hoping that another check will turn up favourably.

For the Wolf nair. That was a test from a conversation with Lucien. He was trying to find a way to make it more of a tech chase move and this kind of works. Give it a try.

The first hit is a GTFO and the others pop up for setups. Makes it great for tech chases.

K. Well... the setting I had it at basically made it so it set up for combos at any percent. Maybe I'll try raising the angle slightly, but it seems to work great as it is.

 

[leafgreen386]

Double post but w/e.

So in talking about the problem of rapid jabs, which seem to be causing us all kinds of problems, we've come up with two solutions:

1) Cut down their speed and fix their angles/kb to work with the new speed. This would severely nerf the jabs, though, and make them a lot less useful in general, due to having more risk and less reward. A lot of jabs may not even work right trying to do this.

2) The radical solution that had to be mentioned: Remove rapid jabs entirely and make these chars only have a two-hit jab combo. The second jab would be given more lag to not be stupidly OP, but would also be given a kb boost so that it could still be useful.

Cape thought of one of these and I thought of the other. Guess who thought of what?

 

[Revven]

Well, as long as it's only the rapid jabs that are being affected (i.e not Wolf's jab) then I am fine and don't really care either way (probably the less radical idea would be better, meaning #1).

 

[JCaesar]

Can we add a small pause between the last jab of the rapid jab cycle before it goes back to the first again?

Yes, like Melee. It worked to make jabs not gay in that game, no reason why it wouldn't work here.

 

[The Cape]

Ok. I looked over what we have and I see a few minor tweaks for chars that I think will bring us to Gold.

Please comment and give me your opinions as you see fit and I will update the list with other ideas, comments, and actual numerical data:

Mario fair:
Flub to 90 growth
Doc hit to 110 Growth
Uair to: 29 base from 9; 60 growth from 100
Bair to:
Bair
hitbox 1 (20 base from 10 and 45 growth from 95, 15 angle)
hitbox 2 (17 base from 7 and 40 growth from 90, 15 angle)

Luigi:
More hitstun
Nair less KBG

Peach:
Finished

Bowser:
Fix weak F smash boxes (make them a bit more reliable)
New throws
Less hitstun

Yoshi:
Dair less landing lag (40%?)
SideB returns midair jump code from BBrawl
F throw, lower angle, more base, low growth
B throw more KBG
U throw: 12 damage, higher base, no growth (damage only)
D throw, unchanged

Diddy:
UpB hitting the wall sends into tumble

Falcon:
Magus nair fix
Less hitstun

Fox:
Dair less damage or more ALR or something
U smash less KBG

Falco:
D throw higher BKB
U throw less BKB
F throw more KBG
B throw (fixed)

Wolf:
Fixed uair (bigger hitbox and dropped down)
SideB on hit restores mid air jump
Lucien?

ICers:
remove infinite
Fix Nana glitch

Link:
D throw angle fixed (bit higher)
Bombs have less KBG

TL:
Finished

Zelda:
Ryoko?

Sheik:
Fix chain on edgeguard
Ryoko?

Ganon:
GoG?

Kirby:
Less KBG on bair

Metaknight:
Ask Giza (good ideas there)

DDD:
B throw more KB
F throw lower angle, higher base, low growth
D throw lower angle (closer to DDD)
U throw (Shanus idea)
Giza minon ideas

Pit:
Waiting on Sagemoon
Fix D tilt

Samus:
Fix bombs?

ZSS:
Finished

Ness:
Simna
He wants absorb to replace hold

IDs:
115 = down B
120 = release
11E = Hold
11F = Absorb

Lucas:
Throws fix

Pikachu:
D throw fix

Jiggs:
Throws fix
Bair hitbox a bit longer?

Lucario:
Finished

PT:
Ability to switch either direction (pick from char select screen)

Squirtle:
Less KBG on uair

Ivy:
Alopex D smash idea?

Charizard:
Finished

Marth:
More hitstun

Ike:
Finished

Olimar:
Higher angle for D throw
Fix Pikmin glitch

ROB:
Finished

GW:
Count Kaiser?
SlikVik?

Snake:
Finished

Sonic:
Finished

 

[Blank Mauser]

Luigi:
Nair less KBG

Fox:
U smash less KBG

Kirby:
Less KBG on bair

Squirtle:
Less KBG on uair

I don't like the idea of nerfing more kill moves like these, especially on these chars.

Sonic:
Finished

Me and DS are still working on him, but are in need of hitbox ID's. We also need a code to modify his spring timer.

Also, I really support adding more hitstun to certain chars. Mainly the ones you listed, and maybe a few others.

 

[Veril]

Luigi:
More hitstun
Nair less KBG

More hitstun for Luigi is something most of us agree on I think. It removes the clear need for an nair change though, so I'd say first add hitstun, then if the nair nerf is still needed increase its startup.

Bowser:
Fix weak F smash boxes (make them a bit more reliable)
New throws
Less hitstun

Less hitstun, less floatiness to compensate. I think a toned down version of the bbrawl dair should at least be tried out in a nightly build.

Yoshi:
Dair less landing lag (40%?)
SideB returns midair jump code from BBrawl
F throw, lower angle, more base, low growth
B throw more KBG
U throw: 12 damage, higher base, no growth (damage only)
D throw, unchanged

Side-b should have a much faster cool-down if its going to be a recovery tool. I'll get back to you on the throw ideas.

Falcon:
Magus nair fix
Less hitstun

Yes. Less hitstun (not too much less) will fix Falcon.

Fox:
Dair less damage or more ALR or something
U smash less KBG

More landing lag on the dair would be worth trying, but I'm not sure it would be worth keeping. I'd have to test out the difference in comboability to have a better idea. Up-smash should not get nerfed.

Kirby:
Less KBG on bair

Not necessary.

Lucas:
Throws fix

I'll return to this...

Pikachu:
D throw fix

Thank god.

Jiggs:
Throws fix
Bair hitbox a bit longer?

Yes, I wrote up my suggestions on the Jiggs thread. No to the bair. That move is great, seriously. F-smash should have some startup shaved off. MOTHER F***ING DARKNESS REST! It's unique (as opposed to the fire rest which is just taken from melee), AWESOME, and it fixes the problem with PT weakness/resistances. That and its a very easy change.

Squirtle:
Less KBG on uair

I'm not so sure about this.

Marth:
More hitstun

OMG yes.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ganon:
GoG?

Sword

no but he really seems fine. He's still on the lower end, but he at least has tools to hold his own. A bigger standing grab would help him a lot and is the only thing I'd like to give him.

 

[Shell]

I'm working on the grab. I going to bed now but I'll try to finish up work on his grab/throw stuff as well as Lucas's throws tomorrow evening.