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Character Discussion Thread

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Dinoman96

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I'd say the standards of the addition of third party characters is very different from the addition of any old first party character. To have non-Nintendo characters in a Nintendo fighting game is obviously going to be a very big deal, and Sakurai knows that, and as such, every third party character we've had in Smash are some of gaming's biggest stars. I'm not saying Layton doesn't sell well or isn't popular, but I have a hard time believing he's made the same impact as much as Pac-Man, Sonic, etc.
 
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Kenith

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Personally, I kinda doubt that. The MGS series has sold just about 40 million. Layton on the other hand has only sold 15 million. I'm sure Snake and MG have left a bigger impact on games than Layton has.
Sonic, Pac-Man, Megaman and MGS have all sold at least 30 million copies. I'd say that's a good cutoff for worthy third party additions. I've posted this before, but NeoGAF's Ryce once made a list of all (non-licensed) third party series that have surpassed this threshold.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=102886802&postcount=10235
Yes, Metal Gear has sold nearly three times as many units as Professor Layton...
But what percent of those sales are on Nintendo platforms?
Because I do know that for Layton it's at least 85%.

Mind you, I don't think sales mean anything but I'm just providing a counter-argument.
 

Starcutter

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The biggest reason I feel like people here have forgotten about Professor Layton....

Isn't his games localized for North America by Nintendo?
 

BKupa666

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Guys, Rayman has no chance because I think third parties are a case of diminishing returns. No one cares about them anymore. They don't mean as much. That means this is an obvious fake.
 

ZeldaFan01

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People are clearly on some sort of, like, psychotic trip right now. Because Rayman's render on the CSS is different from his trophy model and Mewtwo's render on the CSS is different from the 50-fact Extravaganza. But I guess they don't remember how it was like in Melee.
Trophy

CSS Render

But, I couldn't care less if the leak was real or not, just thought I'd share:)
 

Kenith

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People are clearly on some sort of, like, psychotic trip right now. Because Rayman's render on the CSS is different from his trophy model and Mewtwo's render on the CSS is different from the 50-fact Extravaganza. But I guess they don't remember how it was like in Melee.
Trophy

CSS Render

But, I couldn't care less if the leak was real or not, just thought I'd share:)
No, Mewtwo's render being different from the one in the 50-facts direct is why some think it's real.
 

Deathlightning21

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Ah, so the render from the 50-facts may be just a placeholder...or his in-game model. hmm
I'm not sure of that render was a place holder (given they showed us both versions of it on wiiu and 3ds) So i'm not 100% into buying the leak

it just raises too many questions

EDIT:

there go my questions....
 
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Argos

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Does anyone really care about the Mario 'canon.' Are there Mario timelines circulating out there that I'm not aware of. One thing I thought of recently with regard to Waluigi is that he's a great representative of Nintendo sports games in general and could build a pretty fun moveset just around that.

Layton would be a noticeable step down in terms of third party iconography, but I don't think that Smash necessarily needs to maintain it's current level of only the most super of the top superstars of all time, especially if they think it's a good chance to further cozy up with Level-5. I'd choose five or so third party candidates before him based on personal bias, but he's not an awful choice.
 

ZeldaFan01

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I'm not sure of that render was a place holder (given they showed us both versions of it on wiiu and 3ds) So i'm not 100% into buying the leak

it just raises too many questions

EDIT:

there go my questions....
Where did you get that picture?
It wasnt in the video.
Now it makes want to believe the leak even more!
Not just anyone can possibly take the time to recreate renders and CSS for both 3DS and Wii U.. And a splash art..
 

Deathlightning21

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Where did you get that picture?
It wasnt in the video.
Now it makes want to believe the leak even more!
Not just anyone can possibly take the time to recreate renders and CSS for both 3DS and Wii U.. And a splash art..
It was posted as a link in the youtube comments on one of the rayman videos
 

SmashChu

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So I'll throw my two cents in on Rayman.

First, I know some people will think this is real because there are videos. Just because there are stills, even inside the game, doesn't mean the character is real. We didn't see any gameplay or even the announcer say his name. Everything we've seen so far could be made in photoshop. It wouldn't be the first time someone has done this. I say wait until there is actual gameplay. That's MUCH harder to fake.

For my personal opinion: you all know it. My issue with adding Rayman is it makes the game feel more like MUGAN and less like Smash Bros. Smash Bros has always taken pride in being selective with its characters. Even with the third party characters, Sakurai had been restritive on them, in general, which made them feel special. Having Rayman seems more like a cooperate thing to do and makes it feel less interesting. Character like Mega Man and Sonic feel awesome because it's a rare occasion. Nintendo could easily add a ton of Sonic characters if they wanted to, and the demand is there. But they don't because, by being restrictive, it makes having Sonic feel special, rather than just another characters. And that's what Rayman would be. Just another character. In the same vein, I feel there are better choices without the legal hassle (for instance, Sonic stages are banned in offical streams because Nintendo doesn't own the music). They could have a Rhythm Heaven character, or maybe an Inkling to promote the new game. Or a veteran like Wolf (who has a lot of request, actually). Or even King K Rool, who a lot of people wanted and would likely buy. But Rayman goes by the logic of "We have to have more third party characters because they sell," which I think it gets in the way of what makes the third party characters interesting and what will keep people interested in purchasing them. Having a ton of them is lame, but having a few is cool. For those of you who keep track of what I post, this is what Diminishing Marginal Utility is. It's the concept of "There is too much of a good thing."

As an aside, I do feel like the abundance of Mario, Pokemon and Fire Emblem content drains on the game too. Brawl's roster as awesome because it was spread out. You had additions for a lot of different series. Smash 4 doesn't feel like that as much.

I wont say if it's real or not and just wait and see. One thing to keep in mind is Sakurai has said they don't have any plans for other characters and that Mewtwo is a test. Unless he was lying, Rayman would have had to be made in the last month or two (Sakurai was saying this into January). He also implied it takes a while to make a character and Mewtwo is made from scratch. It doesn't mean there couldn't have been another character. It just sheds some doubt.

Anyway, carry on.
 
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JaidynReiman

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I hope its real only for the fact that it proves DLC beyond Mewtwo is happening. Then people will argue "its only Rayman!" because that's what they did with Mewtwo when as far as we were aware DLC wasn't happening prior to Mewtwo, and prior to Mewtwo they said the same thing. "DLC won't happen, all we have is the roster leak, shut up."


This is yet another blow to that. So I definitely hope its real. As for Rayman himself, though... I don't like the idea. I think he fits better than Snake, but I will get annoyed if they just keep adding third-party characters.
 

CatRaccoonBL

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I hope its real only for the fact that it proves DLC beyond Mewtwo is happening. Then people will argue "its only Rayman!" because that's what they did with Mewtwo when as far as we were aware DLC wasn't happening prior to Mewtwo, and prior to Mewtwo they said the same thing. "DLC won't happen, all we have is the roster leak, shut up."


This is yet another blow to that. So I definitely hope its real. As for Rayman himself, though... I don't like the idea. I think he fits better than Snake, but I will get annoyed if they just keep adding third-party characters.
I do hope for DLC beyond all this, but at the same time I do still think it's hard to ignore the fact Sakurai just wants to be done with this game.

Does this raise my hopes a little? Sure. At the same time, it seems logical to reveal a character before release and after release to keep the hype going for a bit longer. It would've certainly killed any Rayman hype if they revealed him during the same stream they revealed mewtwo.

Also, with this, I think the chances of getting a mewtwo trailer is almost nothing now. In the same direct they show off Mewtwo they will probably reveal Rayman.
 

JaidynReiman

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I do hope for DLC beyond all this, but at the same time I do still think it's hard to ignore the fact Sakurai just wants to be done with this game.

Does this raise my hopes a little? Sure. At the same time, it seems logical to reveal a character before release and after release to keep the hype going for a bit longer. It would've certainly killed any Rayman hype if they revealed him during the same stream they revealed mewtwo.

Also, with this, I think the chances of getting a mewtwo trailer is almost nothing now. In the same direct they show off Mewtwo they will probably reveal Rayman.
I still don't get why Sakurai has to be the end-all, be-all answer. Why does Sakurai have to be the one to do DLC? I don't think it matters. If Nintendo wants DLC, REGARDLESS of what Sakurai wants, it will happen. If Sakurai doesn't want to do it, they'll have someone else do it. Period. That's it.


This notion that Sakurai MUST be involved is ludicrous. If Sakurai did not want to do Smash 4, it would've still happened. They just would've hired someone else to do it.
 

Niala

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I'm not sure if this is true or not, and I would love for somebody to actually properly inform me on this, but I've heard mention that the Hyrule Warriors DLC was not actually done by the same people who made the game. I only bring this up because if it is true, then there's no reason to care at all if Sakurai or Sora want to continue working on the game, DLC at that point comes down to "Does Nintendo think it's profitable?" The answer to which is likely a resounding "Yes."
 

Wintropy

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Layton is an interesting case. He's exclusively Nintendo and the games themselves are even published by Nintendo in Japan. There's also the fact that Akihiro Hino said it would be "wonderful" to see Layton in Smash and the possibility of Nintendo and Level-5 working together for future projects to consider.

Now I don't think he's particularly likely, at least not right now, but he's not too much of a stretch. He's pretty much as close as you can get to being a Nintendo character without Ninty actually owning the rights to the IP. If Level-5 approached Ninty with the suggestion, it could definitely work. I'd be over the moon, for one.
 

ZeldaFan01

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I'm not sure if this is true or not, and I would love for somebody to actually properly inform me on this, but I've heard mention that the Hyrule Warriors DLC was not actually done by the same people who made the game. I only bring this up because if it is true, then there's no reason to care at all if Sakurai or Sora want to continue working on the game, DLC at that point comes down to "Does Nintendo think it's profitable?" The answer to which is likely a resounding "Yes."
Are you sure? Cause, it's my understanding that Sakurai kind of has to be in charge right, I mean he's the one picking the characters and everything so how can someone else be in charge of DLC if it's his game?
 

CatRaccoonBL

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This notion that Sakurai MUST be involved is ludicrous. If Sakurai did not want to do Smash 4, it would've still happened. They just would've hired someone else to do it.
Well, even though this was back in brawl, Sakurai did turn down Pac-man when asked by Miyamoto to do it.

Even though it's smarter to make Sakurai do it, it seems like Nintendo just want Sakurai to handle things on his own. Heck, even Game Freak has a "Do whatever you want" attitude.
 

JaidynReiman

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Well, even though this was back in brawl, Sakurai did turn down Pac-man when asked by Miyamoto to do it.

Even though it's smarter to make Sakurai do it, it seems like Nintendo just want Sakurai to handle things on his own. Heck, even Game Freak has a "Do whatever you want" attitude.
And Sakurai can choose characters to add in the future as well without him having to actually lead development on them.
 

ElPanandero

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Two observations:

--It's tough for me to buy that weapons make characters unique anymore after what happened with Palutena. Before her reveal, everyone was through the roof about how a staff user in Smash would be "so unique." After her reveal? Silence. I can't help but imagine a similar fate would befall, say, Smash's first spear-user, its first katana-user, its first chain-user, etc.

--Condescending to people who may not be happy with the game for whatever reason because "I got what I wanted" is, in a word, obnoxious. Empathize with others' feelings, rather than talking down to them about how their disappointments are lesser than others, or aren't valid to begin with.
She's not a staff user, she just has a staff. She uses like 4 staff moves and none of them are unique. She's a mage who carries a staff around.

Also, lol to this rayman inclusion, so many better options
 
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Niala

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Are you sure? Cause, it's my understanding that Sakurai kind of has to be in charge right, I mean he's the one picking the characters and everything so how can someone else be in charge of DLC if it's his game?
Well like I said I'm uncertain as to whether or not Hyrule Warriors DLC is actually being taken care of by another company. But if that is true, it could mean Nintendo has clauses in their contracts with third party companies where they reserve the right to make changes and additions with or without the direct consent of the director or parent developers. I imagine it was in place originally to protect Nintendo, but with how common DLC is I'm sure they have workarounds to allow themselves to make more money off a product. As a result, Sakurai's word could mean diddly-squat at this point.

Realistically, I'm just guessing though. I'm not exactly a legal expert, so there could be designs in place to disallow it based on legal property of the game or intellectual property (which is legally a mess, so I understand.)
 

Curious Villager

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The Professor Layton series was a pretty big deal when it first came out, especially in Europe and Japan during the first three games.

I wouldn't say that Layton is particularly likely but his series has been very successfull and close with Nintendo to a point that for a time it had been mistaken for a series that was actually a part of Nintendo. It was popular enough to even receive a movie. The series own creator has stated twice as well that he would like to see Layton join the Smash Bros series someday.

Of course most of that probably won't mean much though as the series is supposedly on a long hiatus now unless they decide to keep it afloat via spin-offs and a possible remake of the original trilogy I guess.

Just my two cents on the matter. I would personally love to see Layton join the battle someday or at the very least get acknowledged as a Trophy.
 
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JaidynReiman

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Well like I said I'm uncertain as to whether or not Hyrule Warriors DLC is actually being taken care of by another company. But if that is true, it could mean Nintendo has clauses in their contracts with third party companies where they reserve the right to make changes and additions with or without the direct consent of the director or parent developers. I imagine it was in place originally to protect Nintendo, but with how common DLC is I'm sure they have workarounds to allow themselves to make more money off a product. As a result, Sakurai's word could mean diddly-squat at this point.

Realistically, I'm just guessing though. I'm not exactly a legal expert, so there could be designs in place to disallow it based on legal property of the game or intellectual property (which is legally a mess, so I understand.)
I don't recall anyone suggesting at all it was being done by another company, just by another team.


The Professor Layton series was a pretty big deal when it first came out, especially in Europe and Japan during the first three games.

I wouldn't say that Layton is particularly likely but his series has been very successfull and close with Nintendo to a point that for a time it had been mistaken for a series that was actually a part of Nintendo. The series own creator has stated twice as well that he would like to see Layton join the Smash Bros series someday.

Of course most of that probably won't mean much though as the series is supposedly on a long hiatus now unless they decide to keep it afloat via spin-offs and a possible remake of the original trilogy I guess.

Just my two cents on the matter. I would personally love to see Layton join the battle someday or at the very least get acknowledged as a Trophy.
This. Professor Layton should at the very least qualify for a trophy.
 

King Sonnn DeDeDoo

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Dang it, Snake and Professor Layton were always my two most wanted and now that there is a slight chance that we could have 3rd party DLC characters just drives me insane, even if it's very unlikely. Not mad at Rayman though, he's cool, just would have preferred either of the two.
 

GamerGuy09

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If I could add 3 characters as DLC. It would be:

Bandana Dee

Wonder Red

Professor Layton
 

ZeldaFan01

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Waitwaitwait
Now there's video footage, BUT only of the character select screen
I don't see any defects with it, and this just can't be a repeat of the DLC Demo leak! View if you dare
 

The Light Music Club

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I posted my thoughts in the news thread. Here they are again:

It's probably real, but I think this was one of the worst characters that they could put in. It seems to me that any third party can join smash now. Why don't they just add Crash, Spyro, and Bomberman already? This is ridiculous.

Where are Ice Climbers, Wolf, Lucas, Snake, and King K?

I'm sick of these decisions put into the roster.

Also, Mewtwo's render is way too ugly.
 

BKupa666

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Not only is Rayman a pretty damn cool character as far as what he can do with his body type (basically what people said Sukapon could do), he's also not a straight-up promotional throwaway. That bodes well for anyone wanting any DLC outside the shallow pool of Captain Toad/Splatoon Squid/Abraham Lincoln.
 
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