Character Discussion Thread

[CJ Falcon]

Mario had a Wario alt in Brawl and Wario was still a character.

 

[Niala]

Ah, thank you. That would be quite the compensation for his removal in that event, there will be no disappointment from me. I always wanted to play Wolf as a "fox clone." To be honest, that is half the reason people annoy me so much when they assert that Wolf is a Fox clone... it is... because... I wish it was true.

Apparently the fur is also changed. He was sort of unclear about whether or not the texture changed, but he was adamant that it was a light grey colour. Just for your reference. The whole of both threads can be found in the 3DS boards, I think.

 

[~Krystal~]

More Smash 3DS leaks are almost here with more characters hopefully.
Aooohm raaelllly FEELIN ate!

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

More Smash 3DS leaks are almost here with more characters hopefully.
Aooohm raaelllly FEELIN ate!

Naaaough its SHULK tiem!

 

[ActionHankBeard]

I am just sitting here waiting for Dark Pit's announcement... or Ganondorf's even though we already got that one, but Sakurai wants to pretend that it never happened because he was not ready to reveal Ganondorf.

Not to excited that I did not get to discuss much Ganondorf before launch aside from whiny and entitled Legend of Zelda fans screaming and crying about how he is still Falcondorf and that he "deserves" much better and whatnot.

Of all the characters, Ganondorf is the most deserving of a moveset overhaul. It's a shame that his Smash incarnation shares literally no relation to his in game counterparts. He's a prominent character within his series with so much potential. After seeing the changes made to Pit plus characters like Palutena with 12 special moves I think people are justified in their "whiny sense of entitlement".

 

[ihskeyp]

Of all the characters, Ganondorf is the most deserving of a moveset overhaul. It's a shame that his Smash incarnation shares literally no relation to his in game counterparts. He's a prominent character within his series with so much potential. After seeing the changes made to Pit plus characters like Palutena with 12 special moves I think people are justified in their "whiny sense of entitlement".

Hey, at least he's in the game

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'd expect leaks and more info on wednesday.

Brawl leaks 3 days before release, iirc.

EDIT: And you know, Ganondorf fans, it's not like Captain Falcon's moveset makes sense for him either.

 

[ActionHankBeard]

Hey, at least he's in the game

Not complaining about that. And we haven't seen everything so I'm not assuming he's completely unchanged from previous games. I just felt it was worth mentioning.

 

[~Krystal~]

Of all the characters, Ganondorf is the most deserving of a moveset overhaul. It's a shame that his Smash incarnation shares literally no relation to his in game counterparts. He's a prominent character within his series with so much potential. After seeing the changes made to Pit plus characters like Palutena with 12 special moves I think people are justified in their "whiny sense of entitlement".

Lol. After Melee there should have been enough time. I think Sakurai has grown fond of Falcondorf's moveset. He'll never change it. NEVA. As long as he's the smash director, there will be warlock punches and dark dives for all eternity! Learn to love this Ganondorf. Savor those epic sword taunts.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

Of all the characters, Ganondorf is the most deserving of a moveset overhaul. It's a shame that his Smash incarnation shares literally no relation to his in game counterparts. He's a prominent character within his series with so much potential. After seeing the changes made to Pit plus characters like Palutena with 12 special moves I think people are justified in their "whiny sense of entitlement".

The one thing i definitely want, is after this game is released that they have an iwata asks with sakurai, or at least someone from the press. And for them to ask him about some of the more odd decisions hes made and why he made them, especially about cuts when we have we what got this time.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

More Smash 3DS leaks are almost here with more characters hopefully.
Aooohm raaelllly FEELIN ate!

 

[Weeman]

I am just sitting here waiting for Dark Pit's announcement... or Ganondorf's even though we already got that one, but Sakurai wants to pretend that it never happened because he was not ready to reveal Ganondorf.

Not to excited that I did not get to discuss much Ganondorf before launch aside from whiny and entitled Legend of Zelda fans screaming and crying about how he is still Falcondorf and that he "deserves" much better and whatnot.

But he deserves better! Warlock Punch should be a OHKO everytime, even going through walls

 

[~Krystal~]

I keep imagining Ganondorf in this sleek high tech commercial that explains how Sakurai and his team have managed to "rework" him using the most revolutionary ideas in video games. Then when the presentation comes, all that's changed are the colors of his warlock punch and wizard's foot.

 

[Masonomace]

I liked the concept of the Pokemon Trainer but I think it could have been pulled off waaay better. There is alot of complexity that could have been added.

The direction they had going with PT was fine with everything that was implemented into the character's game-play being true to the games as if you were actually being the trainer commanding the pokemon's inputs & attacks. All that was really needed, was to remove the built-in values of Fatigue & Stamina, then Pokemon Trainer would of been an amazing character competitively. But nooooooo.

Oh & Type Effectiveness being removed unless accepted as a Pokemon vs Pokemon matchup mechanic only, would have been great.

The complexity is why PT is hampered. Stamina and Type Effectiveness may be nice nods to the Pokemon games, but they cripple the character so bad.

Eggsactly. They took a realistic move of the games using those aspects, then the complexity ruined their game-play. I would of only put in the Type Effectiveness mechanic as a Pokemon exclusive if I had to make an alternative to retain it.

In regards to Squirtle, he was cut along with Ivysaur and Squirtle, probably because the overall difficulty of implementing Pokémon Trainer proving to be of no value; as the majority of players only picked PT for Charizard. Sakurai's removal of the trainer design tends to show that those two have very little standing on their own. When it comes to popular Pokémon, even Blastoise and Venusaur are greatly inferior in that regard. I think at least this can be agreed upon.

I wonder of those people chose Charizard for his 2nd longest standing grab range & mix of ground-game & air-game. Probably not because nostalgia alert. I'd argue that Squirtle was the most used pokemon out of the trio. The pokemon had the best favored MU's despite having a huge flaw being grab-released to no end along with Charizard in some Match Ups, something Ivysaur is not vulnerable to, while having a unique move-set more-so than Squirtle or Charizard which is my subjective opinion, yet it's a lot more eye-opening seeing Ivysaur's moves than it is to see Squirtles or Charizards unless you involve Squirtle's HydroPlane mechanic onto his Hydro Pump move.

I don't know if you guys have heard, but apparently there is a demo event in Japan and some details people have spotted while playing have popped up along the AKB48 pics.

Spoiler

First details

- Ledge snap SEVERELY nerfed. I feels like Melee ledge grab.
– Meta knights up b is like Marth’s up b. It hits people like once and sorta knocks them away and has an upward direction to it. His tornado still has a lot of hits but you can DI it pretty easy because the hits are actually less frequent, I don’t know yet about its priority.
– Pivot cancel is still in
– Pac Man is SLOW. Every single one of his aerials are kicks. His forward aerial is a double kick, his back air is like Mario. The thing that stood our about him is his utter sluggish-ness. His fall speed is like brawl. His run speed is slow. His forward b sends a pellet out in front of him, and then he turns in to classic pacman and boosts towards it. It’s kind of like greninja’d shadow sneak thing except you can’t time it.
– lucario is unchanged except his smash attacks feel MUCH faster. – peach is unchanged except for her up aerial. It’s now a rainbow thing, it has an arched hitbox over the top of her head, she draws it with her hand.
– Zelda has a white costume
– Ike feels unchanged. I was never an Ike main so I don’t know the specifics but his attacks were all the same general thing, nothing new I noticed.
– pacman. He feels slow, but his attacks felt like they had a good hitbox, because he’s really fat and his legs stretch when he kicks. He just felt really interesting to play, but I ended up using his aerials the most because of their hit boxes.
– Peach’s turnip pull speed is nerfed. She can still move in to float to do things like crown and nair. Her fsmash goes tennis club, golf club, and frying pan. I believe it’s a set order now.
– Sonic still dies pitifully if you end up in a spin without a jump
– ledge stalling may be impossible now? If you drop from the ledge and jump back up, you literally will just NOT grab it. It’s like the ledge gains invulnerability to your grab for a certain time after you let go. DO NOT TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT. I am not 100% sure I need to try it again on my 2nd go around but in my last match I basically lived on the ledge trying this out. I could no re-grab the ledge directly after letting go and jumping back in to obvious grab range.
– palutena’s smash reach is incredible. Her up smash is the giant pillar laser beam thing. Her side smash moves a bit forward and her wings slap in front of her.
– robin is FANTASTIC. Magic is not slow, when he has his spell book his attack speed is really good. If you use a smash attack in the air IT USES HIS MAGIC SMASHES. If you use a normal aerial it uses his other weapon.
– Lucina is not playable.
– chrom appears in robins victory pose.
– they are really right on pictures and video. I almost got kicked out for trying. – villagers up b is the most overpowered recovery I’ve ever seen.
– whoever is worried about combos, there are combos.
– YOU CAN CANCEL RUN WITH SHEILD.
– Olimar has Alph as a costume
– Robin’s hair model doesn’t change. Only color changes.
– Fox has a Wolf color scheme
– Glasses Pikachu confirmed
– Fierce Diety Link confirmed (Face changes too)
– White tunic and Purple tunic confirmed
– His down air has less recovery frames, but doesn’t have as much knockback.
– Boomerang throwing animation is more reminiscent of how it used to look in 64
– Black and purple Yoshi colors confirmed
– Charizard’s up throw is seismic toss, similar to Kirby’s throw.
(rumored) Costumes/colors atm Peach: Fire Peach Yoshi: Black, Purple (no white) Link: Fierce Diety, White, Purple Pit: No black color Palutena: Viridi color Olimar: Alph (full model change) Meta Knight: Dark Meta, Galacta Knight Fox: Wolf color (may just be Brawl’s black Fox) Pikachu: Gold/Silver’s Trainer Hat, X/Y’s Trainer hat, Party hat returns Charizard: Shiny Charizard Robin: His hair color changes, but not the model Pac-Man: His color doesn’t change, but he wears accessories.

2nd details

Wolf deconfirmed Fox has an alternate skin That looks exactly like wolf He’s gray fur Purple eye device and grayish clothing It’s the only skin that changes foxes fur This is only a color, NOT a costume
– Bowser has a “No Bones” Costume (Dry Bowser I believe?) Peach’s butt bomb is hugely buffed. It has barely any startup time anymore. link has a costume with like red markings under his eyes. It looks nothing like link… But his eyes are whitened and has red markings and he’s dark colored clothing. There’s also a white and blue link. toon link has the four swords colors + old style link color, the black with red eyes. there is no Melee dash dancing. It’s incredibly hard to do with the circle pad but it’s essentially the same thing as brawls. IE not super useful or practical. I retested ledge mechanics. I WAS RIGHT. I used megaman this time and reaffirmed my experiences with Ike. There is a short and small window of time after dropping from the ledge that the ledge becomes “immune” to your grab. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TRUMP MECHANIC. It was completely individually on the character. It is not very apparent on characters with flips for 2ndary jumps, as the ledge grab action waits for the flip to finish and the window for “ledge immunity” seems to end before the flip animation does. Megaman and Ike do not have flips, and it was impossible for me to the ledge after jumping/falling off it for a period of time. I am essentially 100% of sure this. Post 15: There is no island toon link costume.

Wolf deconfirmed tho? And Fox gets a recolor of him? That's...

Edit: Here are some guide manual pictures.

*HEAVY BREATHING INTENSIFIES*
*SO MANY COOL COSTUMES / COLORS*
If those rumored palettes / costumes are real, I'm very happy that playing Project M has made this even more hype for me. Galacta Knight & Dark Meta are so fitting it pleases me. Yoshi colors are always awesome & welcomed. Pit not getting a black palette is very well the bandage ripped off the wound right then & there for users reading it to get over with, & eggcept (accept) Dark Pit now like @MorbidAltruism has.
I'm very pleased with the trainer's hat palettes for Pikachu as I enjoy seeing things like that for originating anything from the games, especially Gen 2. AND PARTY HAT RETURNS?! HYPEHYPEHYPEHYPE

Overall, the Lucario news of his smashes acting faster is very good news for me, obviously. The fox news of a Wolf-esque palette for Fox is grave news to read. . .owell. The spoiler didn't say anything about a Gray & Purple palette for Charizard, I saw one exactly described that way in the Japanese demo, thinking it was a soft disconfirm for Mewtwo but not really.

I agree that Shiny Lucario is really ugly, but having some Pokemon being shiny while others aren't just seems pretty stupid to me, no matter how ugly they're colored.

Ultimately agree. A shiny palette is just one palette out of 8. One shiny palette for all the Pokemon isn't hurting anything. Despite the ugliness or beauty of a Shiny, it can still be there for what fans like the colors. (I don't because it's not a green shiny, but still it looks borderline decent)

But he deserves better! Warlock Punch should be a OHKO everytime, even going through walls

I was upset about it at first, but like many things at first, we get over them & accept them. I'm content that Sakurai actually designed brawler-esque Darkness attacks to his move-set, it's a start. & by this same speculation I'm ecstatic for those flames to emit from Falcon's gloves & kicks while dreaming his Knee of Justice may very well be a firey eruption of pain instead of electric sensation of getting the Knees landed. Dopamine will overflow me at this point.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I wonder of those people chose Charizard for his 2nd longest standing grab range & mix of ground-game & air-game.

Me. I like heavy characters, and Zard really appealed to me despite not liking him much. (Venusaur master race) Though I feel the need to correct you on his air-game which is pretty bad consider all his aerials except for the back air are pretty awful all things considered. I really like Charizard for his mid-range ground game, so I hope they focused on that aspect again. (Though buffed aerials would be nice, and they already got rid of his meh FAir so that's a good sign.)

Squirtle and Ivysaur never really did anything for me, though. For one I'm glad I can play Zard without any limitations.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Before I edit this, I figured I would post this again when more people are awake.
ROSTER POSTING TIME! I won't label it as optimistic or prediction or anything. I will just say, I think this one looks nice. Notice how all the clones are still grouped together, notice how all the figureheads on the left introduce you to the row.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

I think the gray and purple charizard is aerodactyl

 

[Masonomace]

Me. I like heavy characters, and Zard really appealed to me despite not liking him much. (Venusaur master race) Though I feel the need to correct you on his air-game which is pretty bad consider all his aerials except for the back air are pretty awful all things considered. I really like Charizard for his mid-range ground game, so I hope they focused on that aspect again. (Though buffed aerials would be nice, and they already got rid of his meh FAir so that's a good sign.)

Squirtle and Ivysaur never really did anything for me, though. For one I'm glad I can play Zard without any limitations.

There's not much to correct, I only say he had a mixture of both whether they're good or bad. His Air-game is worse than his ground game & that's not shocking. I'd say not to underestimate his FH Dair option as that's severely disjointed hitting a lot of standing characters no matter how small they are. Spaced F-airs were, okay, great for crippling recovering characters & U-air was the go-to Momentum Canceling Aerial with a fairly quick start-up. (though fatigue & stamina are getting used up -1 off the timers for all these moves so. . .)
I hope for his presence to be pressuring in his mid-ranged ground game too. Buffing his aerials would be most appreciated hoping they keep his D-air spike move, disjoint & all.

I think the gray and purple charizard is aerodactyl

I was just quoting someone in the Mewtwo thread for saying that, props to Skyblade. I'm ready for that Dragonite-esque palette I've been DYING to see since forever.
@ pupNapoleon I gave you my input about your roster already, but I'll ask something again:
Did you place your pokemon starters like that purposefully to get users viewing your roster to understand the trio aspect of Fire > Grass > Water?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I keep imagining Ganondorf in this sleek high tech commercial that explains how Sakurai and his team have managed to "rework" him using the most revolutionary ideas in video games. Then when the presentation comes, all that's changed are the colors of his warlock punch and wizard's foot.

It hurts to say this, but I fear that Ganondorf will probably end up being one of the worst fighters again. Brawl messed him up bad, and based on what I've seen so far, Smash 4 has not helped him much, if at all.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Actually I think the rise ends at Gen 2, since it sold faster than red and green.

Hard for me to disagree, I even said -2000, but for almost all intents and purposes, Gen 2 is Gen 1. It is literally gen one, part two (whereas the others are actually different generations).

You realize that Toon Zelda is also in that game, right? More like Toon Zelda hype!
Regardless, the first half of your post is more than likely correct. The sale probably doesn't hint at anything.

I fully disagree that the sale does not indicate anything. If they just wanted Toon Zelda, they would have probably done one of the other games. The fact that it is a very specific Vaati Game seems indicative to me, and is certainly evidence in his favor, regardless of if he is in or not (since, all evidence we point out is rather subjective anyway, as the characters either are or are not in).

It seems to me that the smash embargo is slowly cracking. leaving pores of info streaming out by the few who manage to snag some info while they can. best guess, complete source of the game will be showcased on either early monday or wednesday, (best case scenario though)
*EDIT* By this statement alone, I also do feel some shame and sadness towards how Sakurai wishes to preserve some info for the sake of suprise. I hope I am not the only one with this nagging feeling because it truly makes me think.

Don't feel too badly. Sakurai is not an idiot. Just like with the leak, he knew all of this would happen. If he did in fact want to save anything as a surprise, and I personally think he did, then he has it as a surprise not available on Demo, and probably not even in the launch cartridge for Japan.

@ Masonomace Did not place them that way to showcase the type effectiveness, because anyway you place three items who are in a triangle of effectiveness would showcase such. I ordered them by generation.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

Just giving my opinion on duck hunt dogs move set
Neutral special: the zapper
Side special: throwing disk
Down special: idk
Up special: using the duck for flight
Main use for attacks is the duck like a weapon
Final smash: basically snake's but with the zapper
One of his taunts is that stupid laugh ( a true taunt in my book)

 

[SANCHOCO]

2 things

1. On the topic of costumes/colors, what would be possible colors for Dark Pit?

2.

It hurts to say this, but I fear that Ganondorf will probably end up being one of the worst fighters again. Brawl messed him up bad, and based on what I've seen so far, Smash 4 has not helped him much, if at all.

I guess that since I don't play competitively(though I do play on FD/no items), or understand the importance of tiers(couldn't care less about them), that I enjoy playing with Ganondorf. Yes he's slow, but he packs power. Almost every time I play with friends I destroy them with Ganondorf.

Though that's my opinion, I want to ask what makes him so bad?

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

I want to ask what makes him so bad?

we'll he he is slow, hard to hit with because of so much start and end lag (prime example is his f-air), poor recovering, most of his greatness from melee is gone, the only good thing about in my book is he can rack up huge percentages in like two hits.

 

[Masonomace]

2 things

1. On the topic of costumes/colors, what would be possible colors for Dark Pit?

I want to ask what makes him so bad?

1. I'd say. . . .very dark-ftting colors like, crimson red instead of regular red?
Hell, any darker version of any color suits him fine.
This works. Or this<3. Maybe this. Too dark? How about this? Now I know you'll like this.


Disregarding a lot of things that make Brawl Ganon 'bad', a huge thing that makes Brawl Ganondorf really bad, is RCO Lag & it makes low tiers like Captain Falcon & Ganondorf extremely poor when you recover. High Tiers & Top tiers handle RCO Lag fairly.

EDIT: Terrible standing grab-range. Terrible grab range in general. ( I think he has the 39th best grab range, that's a joke since he's last)

 

[Mr.X98]

2 things

1. On the topic of costumes/colors, what would be possible colors for Dark Pit?...

I have been thinking about that the first time I saw him in the roster, and with the fact that Sakurai did a PoTD stating that each character has 8 individual costumes, I wonder how they are going to differentiate him from Pit.

 

[SANCHOCO]

we'll he he is slow, hard to hit with because of so much start and end lag (prime example is his f-air), poor recovering, most of his greatness from melee is gone, the only good thing about in my book is he can rack up huge percentages in like two hits.

Ahh I see. True, fair points.

1. I'd say. . . .very dark-ftting colors like, crimson red instead of regular red?
Hell, any darker version of any color suits him fine.
This works. Or this<3. Maybe this. Too dark? How about this? Now I know you'll like this.


Disregarding a lot of things that make Brawl Ganon 'bad', a huge thing that makes Brawl Ganondorf really bad, is RCO Lag & it makes low tiers like Captain Falcon & Ganondorf extremely poor when you recover. High Tiers & Top tiers handle RCO Lag fairly.

EDIT: Terrible standing grab-range. Terrible grab range in general. ( I think he has the 39th best grab range, that's a joke since he's last)

I love all those colors you're suggesting! Especially the last one lol

I see, that makes sense.

I appreciate the input!

 

[SANCHOCO]

I have been thinking about that the first time I saw him in the roster, and with the fact that Sakurai did a PoTD stating that each character has 8 individual costumes, I wonder how they are going to differentiate him from Pit.

Suddenly, Pit and Dark pit's "costume" colors are just focused on the weapons (I would rage/laugh if this was true, but I know it won't be)

 

[Mr.X98]

Suddenly, Pit and Dark pit's "costume" colors are just focused on the weapons (I would rage/laugh if this was true, but I know it won't be)

Focused to their weapons? terribly sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain a little if that's alright? (though I have played and finished Uprising so I know most of what you are saying.)

 

[ElPanandero]

I like Ganon the way he is, and Project M made him viable wihile retaining his moveset, there's no reason smash 4 couldnt do it, and he was only garby in brawl, he was mid tier in melee. I'm not holding my breath for it (and I have Robin as another main anyway) though

 

[Kenith]

I think Ganon will be better. While him not having a new moveset is somewhat of a disservice to Zelda fans, I personally don't mind his moveset as long as it simply isn't cloned. It makes way more sense for Ganondorf to be punching people in the face than it does Captain Falcon.

But his moves looked faster in that leak and they also seemed to look slightly less like CF.

 

[Xzsmmc]

It hurts to say this, but I fear that Ganondorf will probably end up being one of the worst fighters again. Brawl messed him up bad, and based on what I've seen so far, Smash 4 has not helped him much, if at all.

It hurts to live.

 

[SANCHOCO]

Focused to their weapons? terribly sorry but I don't understand. Could you explain a little if that's alright? (though I have played and finished Uprising so I know most of what you are saying.)

I mean that the colors of the weapons will change. Dark Pit and Pit would retain their black and white costumes respectively. The only colors that will change will be on the weapons. In any case i'm just messing around because I know it won't happen lol XD

 

[Mr.X98]

I mean that the colors of the weapons will change. Dark Pit and Pit would retain their black and white costumes respectively. The only colors that will change will be on the weapons. In any case i'm just messing around because I know it won't happen lol XD

OH! Now I see what you mean. That does make sense, and don't cut yourself short on that idea. It's pretty good and I think Sakurai would do that in light of similar looking characters. :D

But I like the color swaps merely for the child in me that loves looking at the bright colors when fighting though... D:

 

[TylerBlackRunIt]

View attachment 24193
My Final Wish Roster....

My Final Wish Roster Video....

 

[FalcoPaunch!121]

he still has a lot going for him multiple leaks,we are thining about it,demand,leaker saying its not the full roster,lock on all star mode,why would 6 pokemon reps go down to 5,greninja trailer,and one of the few charcters left that still has a chances that is not deconfirmed or and its mewtwo

Here are some not deconfirmed characters:

Isaac, Ridley, Dixie, K. Rool, Sceptile, BD, Lloyd, Rayman, Wolf, Icies, Marshall, Knuckles, Anthony Higgs.

I'm sharing the love! Go ahead!

 

[JaidynReiman]

Here are some not deconfirmed characters:

Isaac, Ridley, Dixie, K. Rool, Sceptile, BD, Lloyd, Rayman, Wolf, Icies, Marshall, Knuckles, Anthony Higgs.

I'm sharing the love! Go ahead!

Why bother mentioning Lloyd or Knuckles?

Oh, and Rayman WAS disconfirmed.

 

[FalcoPaunch!121]

Why bother mentioning Lloyd or Knuckles?

Oh, and Rayman WAS disconfirmed.

Not necessarily. And I believe we will get one more 3rd party.

 

[Kenith]

Not necessarily. And I believe we will get one more 3rd party.

I do too.
Her name is Jill Valentine.

 

[FalcoPaunch!121]

I do too.
Her name is Jill Valentine.

Okay, lets not get crazy.

 

[ThePsychoWolf]

From what I've read, the game keeps sounding better and better, but I do have one pet peeve.

Why can we have these:

Spoiler: Along with most likely these

But we can't have this:

It annoys me much more than it should, and it just shows inconsistency.

This happens with every game, really. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Squirtle and Ivysaur all got their shiny forms, Charizard got **** recolors, Lucario got some cool ones but strangely no shiny. Hell, Mewtwo's 'shiny' palette was off in Melee (he's supposed to have green eyes, too) and it drove me nuts.