Character Discussion Thread

[Morbi]

And this is also the hidden bad of the reason why semi-clones shouldn't happen.

Dark Pit was decently requested and I seen him at many top 10 lists pre- E3 2013:

http://smashboards.com/threads/super-smash-bros-4-wii-u-3ds-topic.324221/page-240#post-15525723


And this:

He's pretty popular in Japan with a ranking of #16.

Regarding the Dark Pit not being revealed in Palutena's trailer, I believe there are two answers to that.
The first it could be leading to a continuing trailer revealing Dark Pit/Hades or Medusa.
The second is that Sakurai is teasing him to reveal him at whatever big role Sakurai wants us to see regarding Pittoo.

It would be hilarious to see Dark Pit revealed alongside Hades/Medusa. Sakurai is apparently getting a lot of **** for including Palutena. I would actually seek out the reactions of the Japanese fan-base if he included two more Kid Icarus characters. I would not be discontent with this in the slightest.

Also... Pit over Mario?! Chrom-U in seventh?! Clearly this list means nothing!

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

And this:

Seeing freaking Hatsune Miku in this image makes me glad that Sakurai even added Mii Fighters in the first place. -_-

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm a bit taken aback by the mainstream gaming media not knowing who the hell Robin and Lucina are lol.

 

[☆Jazz☆]

And this is also the hidden bad of the reason why semi-clones shouldn't happen.

Dark Pit was decently requested and I seen him at many top 10 lists pre- E3 2013:

http://smashboards.com/threads/super-smash-bros-4-wii-u-3ds-topic.324221/page-240#post-15525723


And this:

He's pretty popular in Japan with a ranking of #16.

Regarding the Dark Pit not being revealed in Palutena's trailer, I believe there are two answers to that.
The first it could be leading to a continuing trailer revealing Dark Pit/Hades or Medusa.
The second is that Sakurai is teasing him to reveal him at whatever big role Sakurai wants us to see regarding Pittoo.

BTW, They should give Zelda a SS Alternate Costume, since alot wanted that design rather than TP's.

Pit is #1....not surprised xD.

 

[Niala]

http://smashboards.com/threads/super-smash-bros-4-wii-u-3ds-topic.324221/page-240#post-15525723

The first it could be leading to a continuing trailer revealing Dark Pit/Hades or Medusa.

First of all, I find it incredibly validating to see that Both Lucario and Toon Link are the bottom of the Brawl Vets list.

Secondly, I love that theory. I always felt as though Kid Icarus is in a similar situation now as Kirby was in Brawl, and they received two newcomers then. Admittedly, I would be shocked if that were actually the case, but I really enjoy that concept.

That is certainly one theory, a theory that I intend to use in the future. Thank you very much!

Very welcome! Glad you agree.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Also notice how Dark Pit is more requested than Palutena in that magazine.

 

[NickerBocker]

I dont understand Dark Pit. I mean, any moves he could have separate from Pit could just be part of Pits customizable moveset. Different opinions I suppose...

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Kid Icarus should get three reps......and a Boss. Hades could be a Boss character in some mode I guess, and Medusa/Pittoo would be playable.

 

[False Sense]

...You do realize they could have just given Lucina Marth's properties the same way they did with the Fit Trainers, right? Or just made Lucina a bit taller to match Marth's height? There are so many solutions to that which would let Lucina be an alternate costume. The thought process was not "She's short, we have to make her her own character, oh well." Sakurai literally said "Lucina's a seperate character because no tipper".

Spoiler: Image Reference

I think there might be a miscommunication between us. I'm not trying to argue that Lucina is her own character due to the physical differences between her and Marth. Rather, I'm trying to argue that those differences, along with Sakurai's apparent interest in giving Lucina her own abilities, made it more feasible for her to be her own character. My point about Dark Pit is that he is inherently near identical to Pit; while not impossible to make him his own separate character instead of a simple alternate costume, there is less to work with and, I think, less reason to distinguish the two.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

First of all, I find it incredibly validating to see that Both Lucario and Toon Link are the bottom of the Brawl Vets list.

Well, considering that Lucario was and still is often blamed for Mewtwo not getting in Brawl and that Toon Link is the only Melee-style clone remaining in Brawl that was made so deliberately based on Sakurai's rule (and another Link, to boot) that is absolutely no surprising.

To get back on the topic, I don't believe we'll get another KI character besides Pit and Palutena.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I dont understand Dark Pit. I mean, any moves he could have separate from Pit could just be part of Pits customizable moveset. Different opinions I suppose...

But so far the moves just seem to affect size and speed of the weapon, no different weapons from the one clip of Pit's customizable moveset.

 

[Morbi]

I think there might be a miscommunication between us. I'm not trying to argue that Lucina is her own character due to the physical differences between her and Marth. Rather, I'm trying to argue that those differences, along with Sakurai's apparent interest in giving Lucina her own abilities, made it more feasible for her to be her own character. My point about Dark Pit is that he inherently is near identical to Pit; while not impossible to make him his own separate character instead of a simple alternate costume, there is less to work with and, I think, less reason to distinguish the two.

To be fair; if anyone comprehends their subtle differences and how to incorporate them, it is the creative director, Mr. Sakurai-swan.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I dont understand Dark Pit. I mean, any moves he could have separate from Pit could just be part of Pits customizable moveset. Different opinions I suppose...

I think he could easily have a moveset using all the different weapons in the game to contrast Pit's simplistic moveset. Only problem is well, he's just an evil Pit lol.

Would have taken him over Palutena, whose moveset is based on the abilities you get in game. I always thought those were just a side thing whereas the weapons and fusion were the main meat of the game.

 

[Niala]

Well, considering that Lucario was and still is often blamed for Mewtwo not getting in Brawl and that Toon Link is the only Melee-style clone remaining in Brawl that was made so deliberately based on Sakurai's rule (and another Link, to boot) that is absolutely no surprising.

To get back on the topic, I don't believe we'll get another KI character besides Pit and Palutena.

True enough, it isn't particularly surprising. It's validating nonetheless.

To be fair; if anyone comprehends their subtle differences and how to incorporate them, it is the creative director, Mr. Sakurai-swan.

dying

 

[☆Jazz☆]

True enough, it isn't particularly surprising. It's validating nonetheless.


dying

Me too LOL.

 

[Second Power]

I think there might be a miscommunication between us. I'm not trying to argue that Lucina is her own character due to the physical differences between her and Marth. Rather, I'm trying to argue that those differences, along with Sakurai's apparent interest in giving Lucina her own abilities, made it more feasible for her to be her own character. My point about Dark Pit is that he inherently is near identical to Pit; while not impossible to make him his own separate character instead of a simple alternate costume, there is less to work with and, I think, less reason to distinguish the two.

Less to work with? Have you even played Uprising or Fire Emblem? Lucina had very little to work with to start off with (pretty much just a standard sword fighter), Marth equally little. Their primary difference is exchanging a sweetspot for balanced but lesser damage. Hell, they even removed one of Lucina's differences by changing her stance to match Marth's.

Pit, on the other hand, has access to 9 different types of weapons with plenty of variance in those categories, Dark Pit has been shown using 5 weapons (each very different) in his boss fights as well as be able to use any weapon just as well as Pit in his day-in-the-limelight chapter.

However, Sakurai doesn't have to use any of these. He could easily make Dark Pit different by just changing properties (you know, like Lucina and the Melee clones). Falco in particular applies here. Only minor changes, still a pretty different character.

 

[Spinosaurus]

This is why Snake should be back

it probably won't be in even if snake is back

 

[JFM2796]

Also... Pit over Mario?! Chrom-U in seventh?! Clearly this list means nothing!

And thank God for that.

 

[ElPanandero]

I hope Fire Emblem gets a boss now too, I've been dying to see Black Knight, the scary guy from Awakening (haven't fiished the game yet so his name escpaes me), or a big dragon. Give us something. Or Ashnard, Ashnard would be mint.

 

[Frostwraith]

Anyone thinking Dark Pit is going to be a separate character is deluding themselves. This coming from a Dark Pit supporter.

Sakurai has explicitly told that what makes a character a costume or a separate slot is whether or not said character has gameplay differences.

We now know clearly that Sakurai is one to put a different character as a an alt. costume. He considered male and female variants as different characters on the latest Famitsu column, and most importantly, mentioned name and voice changes. Guess who could be an alt with a voice and name change while keeping the same model and animations? Dark Pit.

Lucina seems to be the only costume that got special treatment during development.

This, of course, being based on what's known so far.

 

[Second Power]

Anyone thinking Dark Pit is going to be a separate character is deluding themselves. This coming from a Dark Pit supporter.

Sakurai has explicitly told that what makes a character a costume or a separate slot is whether or not said character has gameplay differences.

We now know clearly that Sakurai is one to put a different character as a an alt. costume. He considered male and female variants as different characters on the latest Famitsu column, and most importantly, mentioned name and voice changes. Guess who could be an alt with a voice and name change while keeping the same model and animations? Dark Pit.

Lucina seems to be the only costume that got special treatment during development.

This, of course, being based on what's known so far.

I think 'deluding' is something of a strong word, but I can see where your coming from. However, it's not like Marth has stronger attacks at the tip while Lucina is good throughout the blade in their canon games. That was purely an idea Sakurai had. Why can't something similar happen for Dark Pit? She could be an exception, I don't deny. Just wanted to throw it out there.

 

[BluePikmin11]

I personally think Dark Pit was planned from the beginning of development, unlike Lucina, the Dark Pit tweet suggests to me he was planned in the middle of development as a last minute semi-clone (If you can guys say the Monado tweet or the other wooden figures form Sakurai mean something, then so can the Pittoo tweet).

 

[Curious Villager]

Can't we just have Medusa as our Kid Icarus semi-clone and call it a day?
I hope Sakurai clears up this whole Dark Pit stuff soon like he did with Lucina....

 

[aldelaro5]

Wow this thread has so much topic potential now and it's not used:

yesterday: left because dark pit discussion (I don't care)

today: go to last page and I still see the same topic?

Can we just talk about something else?

I posted several pages back about a statement that Sakurai said that I found very important but it seems to have been ignored (mostly because fire emblem discussion). I found it important because I think it tells me how Sakurai likes to see clear and convenient playstyle of a character. Here:

Conversely, when the idea of including Robin came to mind, conceiving the character was so easy that I immediately saw how it would work. From standards to specials, grabs to throws, all aspects of his moveset just fell into place. Not only did he possess characteristics unlike other fighters, but he also captured the essence of the Fire Emblem series. It was perfect!

It may seems very subjective but it does tell me something I tough before. If I try to make a moveset of any character, it shouldn't get to a point when I feel that for the character and his playstyle that the set is "too searched" or "too much".

I don't know about you, but I really feel it should be mentioned since it could be used as evidences for some characters.

 

[Niala]

I hope Fire Emblem gets a boss now too, I've been dying to see Black Knight, the scary guy from Awakening (haven't fiished the game yet so his name escpaes me), or a big dragon. Give us something. Or Ashnard, Ashnard would be mint.

This is something I hadn't thought of, but it's definitely a sweet idea. Fire Emblem bosses never occurred to me, probably because they're not the large, hulking monsters we (I) have come to expect in Smash. But it could be really cool. Even somebody like Nergal would be awesome, if you ask me.

And I suspect you're thinking of Validar as "the scary guy from Awakening." But perhaps not.

Spoiler: about mods <3

I also want to say it's great that the mods actually partake in discussions around here. I'm so used to forums where they're an all-knowing being that never presents it's face unless they're needed-- I think it's a mark of a good community if they feel they can otherwise interact with it's members.

 

[Morbi]

Anyone thinking Dark Pit is going to be a separate character is deluding themselves. This coming from a Dark Pit supporter.

Sakurai has explicitly told that what makes a character a costume or a separate slot is whether or not said character has gameplay differences.

We now know clearly that Sakurai is one to put a different character as a an alt. costume. He considered male and female variants as different characters on the latest Famitsu column, and most importantly, mentioned name and voice changes. Guess who could be an alt with a voice and name change while keeping the same model and animations? Dark Pit.

Lucina seems to be the only costume that got special treatment during development.

This, of course, being based on what's known so far.

So, essentially you are asserting that we are delusional for some arbitrary reason, that seems legitimate. Great debate, let us do it again sometime.

 

[epicgordan]

I think there might be a miscommunication between us. I'm not trying to argue that Lucina is her own character due to the physical differences between her and Marth. Rather, I'm trying to argue that those differences, along with Sakurai's apparent interest in giving Lucina her own abilities, made it more feasible for her to be her own character. My point about Dark Pit is that he is inherently near identical to Pit; while not impossible to make him his own separate character instead of a simple alternate costume, there is less to work with and, I think, less reason to distinguish the two.

I'll answer your question regarding Dark Pit not getting revealed in Palutena's trailer with the following answers:

1. The trailer ends on a cliffhanger. In fact, it remains the only trailer that does this.
2. He's a secret character similar to Mr. Game & Watch.
3. He is being teased for a future villain trailer (one could make the argument that Bowser and King Dedede are the only confirmed villains so far for that very reason).
4. Lucina was confirmed in Robin's trailer in order to help hammer in that Chrom isn't playable. I reckon he may have known about the gematsu leak itself.
5. Mega Man, Sonic, Pac-Man, Luigi, Toon Link, and Lucina were simply the sole exceptions rather than the rule (maybe a couple others too, but I feel those six are a near-lock for unlockable, if not a guarantee). Each of these six have specific reasons for their early reveal after all.
6. Sakurai may be teasing at all the hidden newcomers in the game before revealing them.
7. With the six exceptions aside, he is simply not revealing the hidden characters, period.

Besides, just because he has an identical build that we must automatically disqualify Dark Pit from playable status simply because he looks like Pit--and in spite of his unique abilities? I guess then that Sakurai must demote Wolf to alternate skin for Fox simply because they look too much alike, huh? If Wolf could get in Brawl without having to be a Fox palette swap and with his unique abilities and properties, then so can Dark Pit in spite of their similar appearances.

EDIT: I'm still convinced we're getting a playable 8-Bit Mario.

 

[praline]

Can't we just have Medusa as our Kid Icarus semi-clone and call it a day?
I hope Sakurai clears up this whole Dark Pit stuff soon like he did with Lucina....

Yeah I'm looking forward to seeing Pit with his alt colours.

 

[ElPanandero]

This is something I hadn't thought of, but it's definitely a sweet idea. Fire Emblem bosses never occurred to me, probably because they're not the large, hulking monsters we (I) have come to expect in Smash. But it could be really cool. Even somebody like Nergal would be awesome, if you ask me.

And I suspect you're thinking of Validar as "the scary guy from Awakening." But perhaps not.

Spoiler: about mods <3

I also want to say it's great that the mods actually partake in discussions around here. I'm so used to forums where they're an all-knowing being that never presents it's face unless they're needed-- I think it's a mark of a good community if they feel they can otherwise interact with it's members.

That's the best part is that there's player sized bosses (Black Knight, Nergal, Validar) and the hulking sized guys (Marth's endgame dragon foe, the chimera fire monster beast thing from FE7, Ashnard on his dragon would be Ridley sized ) and I'm sure the japanese exclusive titles offer plenty of depth for either type. There's so much potential there and now that FE isn't as obscure, at least in smash terms, a little boss love would be great.

 

[Morbi]

Yeah I'm looking forward to seeing Pit with his alt colours.

I am looking forward to seeing Pittoo's alternate colours.

 

[UltimateWario]

Anyone else get the feeling that Dark Pit might be Sakurai's new "baby"?

Think about it. He's the closest thing Kid Icarus has to Meta Knight, who got all sorts of special treatment last time. He appears out of nowhere at the end of Palutena's trailer just to...say a thing, and is the only character, barring Ridley, who has been shown (well..."shown") without being matter-of-fact and saying "This is this character's deal. This is what they do".

I think it's more than a little fishy, and I personally don't think a character should be their own slot if they were literally a color swap in the last game and haven't changed even slightly in design, but Sakurai's beliefs are not my own. I mean, you have Pit and Dark Pit, both metal, and they're going to be identical.

Honestly, I'm thinking that DP's (lol) going to be his own slot or a super-deluxe-ultra costume with his own name calls and stuff.

 

[Dalek_Kolt]

Wolf and Lucina can get away with being their own characters because they at least have a slightly different models. But Dark Pit is literally a clone. there is NOTHING differentiating him from Pit.

I'll support Dark Pit the day I see a full set of palette swaps for the guy that in no way can be confused with Pit's.

At the very least, I can say these guys are two separate albeit similar-looking people and NOT palette swaps.

 

[Con0rrrr]

Yeah I'm looking forward to seeing Pit with his alt colours.

Such as black.

Cause that's his alt.

Dark Pit.

Heh.

Jokes

 

[praline]

I don't wanna go over this again but I guarantee Dark Pit won't be his own character.

 

[AEMehr]

Anyone thinking Dark Pit is going to be a separate character is deluding themselves. This coming from a Dark Pit supporter.

Sakurai has explicitly told that what makes a character a costume or a separate slot is whether or not said character has gameplay differences.

We now know clearly that Sakurai is one to put a different character as a an alt. costume. He considered male and female variants as different characters on the latest Famitsu column, and most importantly, mentioned name and voice changes. Guess who could be an alt with a voice and name change while keeping the same model and animations? Dark Pit.

Lucina seems to be the only costume that got special treatment during development.

This, of course, being based on what's known so far.

Lucina was given special treatment because she had changes in gameplay from Marth. The main reason being how the Falchion differed for both characters.

If Dark Pit is indeed playable in some form, he would be using the Silver Bow mainly (A prototype of Palutena's bow for those of you that were curious). If this weapon differs statistically from Pit's in anyway possible (which it canonically does), Dark Pit would pretty much be getting a spot on the roster too. This is what I'm personally banking on happening, despite not really wanting to see Dark Pit be his own character. It's also probable that he'd have a heavier emphasis on his air game, maybe even adopting several of Pit's old moves from Brawl (though I heavily doubt he will be Brawl Pit).

 

[praline]

Wolf and Lucina can get away with being their own characters because they at least have a slightly different models. But Dark Pit is literally a clone. there is NOTHING differentiating him from Pit.

I'll support Dark Pit the day I see a full set of palette swaps for the guy that in no way can be confused with Pit's.

At the very least, I can say these guys are two separate albeit similar-looking people and NOT palette swaps.

Slightly different models? Wolf looks nothing like Fox, just like Lucina looks nothing like Marth.

 

[Morbi]

Wolf and Lucina can get away with being their own characters because they at least have a slightly different models. But Dark Pit is literally a clone. there is NOTHING differentiating him from Pit.

I'll support Dark Pit the day I see a full set of palette swaps for the guy that in no way can be confused with Pit's.

At the very least, I can say these guys are two separate albeit similar-looking people and NOT palette swaps.

That is not necessarily the case; there are a couple of attributes that make Dark Pit quite discernible.
http://kidicarus.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Pit

 

[ultimatekoopa]

They would probably add clones that are popular and relevant this time around like Lucina (Whom I think was in because of her easiness to make her and her popularity) over Lucas and Wolf, that's my proposition.

But Star Fox is getting a new game soon and Wolf will probably be in it, so Wolf will probably take priority over any of them

 

[TheNerdyOne_]

Wolf and Lucina can get away with being their own characters because they at least have a slightly different models. But Dark Pit is literally a clone. there is NOTHING differentiating him from Pit.

I'll support Dark Pit the day I see a full set of palette swaps for the guy that in no way can be confused with Pit's.

At the very least, I can say these guys are two separate albeit similar-looking people and NOT palette swaps.

 

[BluePikmin11]

But Star Fox is getting a new game soon and Wolf will probably be in it, so Wolf will probably take priority over any of them

It just started development, and I highly doubt we'll be getting any content or benefit post-Tropical Freeze release in the game.