Character Competitive Impressions

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

EHh.
Alright.
Here we go.

Lucina is bad, as is Marth. They lose to the same smart shielding strategy bad enough that they're practically unviable.
But for every moment Marth is an advantage, he's drastically better than Lucina in the same scenario.
The only exception is forward smash. And you'd be a fool to think Marth's fsmash is so much worse.

"high level" player
You may have noticed by now, but players tend to not be on top of each other the entire time, ever. There is always horizontal and vertical space between players, otherwise the scenario is not 'neutral'. As long as the opponent isn't teleporting, there is no path the opponent nor the swordsmen will take that won't align with max spacing. Timing is pivotal. If you're going to make comments about high level play then you don't do so by assuming either player doesn't know how to space/play the game.

"gimping opponents more easily"
How? Please don't bother even answering this, next time just don't talk out of your ***.

"respect lucina's whole sword... opponent in the 140 range"
No, you don't respect Lucina's whole sword, you respect forward smash and nothing else. The problem is, that it's Lucina's only kill option that matters. I'm honestly not sure what Lucina is killing with at 140% other than two of her smash attacks, and it's this limit which I see imposing on Lucina the most out of anything else (i.e. her advantage is just that drastically weaker), it's not Marth struggling to find a kill before 150%, it's Lucina, 9 times out of 10 (hundreds/thousands of games with both characters thus far).

Now... the other thing is...
Sour spots.
Lucina not having them is going to drastically hurt her in the long run.
Sakurai angles are extremely important to combo games, for every character. As time progresses, players will be confident in knowing how their hit confirms will work and how to capitalise on their hitconfirms significantly faster than they do now.
Marth and Lucina are SakuraiAngles the character. As I develop the Falchion, it's obvious to me that I can get fair (bair, or certain ff nairs) to fsmash on Marth for a lot longer than Lucina can. She genuinely doesn't have a sakurai-angle move that will force a ground hit at kill percent for her smash attacks. Marth's sourspots in general will be able to combo into a second move (especially in the air without needing to land), often a tipper due to GEOMETRY; sour spot fair->tipper fair at the ledge gets me clean kills and properly strings, sour spot fair->rar bair can work too on stage and kill like 20-30% earlier.
This is enough for me to want to love Marth, but it still isn't enough. His capabilities in neutral/disadvantage are so below average (for his weight) that even with the beautiful intricacies of his moveset (that Lucina doesn't have) it just isn't worth it.

Oh and ZSS is definitely the Marth replacement in this game

I apologize, I'm kind of a scrub in some regards. Even with good tourney experience I'm not the best at theorycraft or avoiding talking out my ass. I used to main Marth in SSB4 for a 2-3 week period, I've seen what Lucina mains are going through since 3DS release, so I try to emphasize with them since I don't really like the attitude a lot of Marth players have with "just pick Marth" when my favorite character in Smash is Roy and I don't want them to deal with the same **** I've had to deal with since picking up FE6 (Roy's game) and maining him simply because of how cool him and his father are. I have some experience playing as Lucina in friendlies but that's it. I still thought she was good in regards to Marth, but Marth does have those strengths over her. CO's top player dumpsters me with Lucina (usually 3-1 or 3-2) in sets, but it's a player thing.

You know your stuff on Marth, while I (on purpose) avoided acknowledging Marth's strengths over Lucina and talked out my ass when I thought I could get away with it because I don't like where it usually leads. But, you didn't say "just pick Marth" or anything of that effect, just stuff on Marth being potentially better, so I'll back off on Marth vs. Lucina. I had a gut feeling I was wrong before arguing and still went through with it. The only character I can argue effectively for is Ike, and that's probably the only debate I wouldn't flat-out be humiliated in and possibly win.

I don't see how ZSS replaces Marth by any stretch, besides being a good zoning character, since I've seen people openly tell Marth players that with the Marths flat-out saying no, but I'm sure there's logical reasoning I haven't seen on it.

Marth vs. Lucina vs. ZSS is dumb anyways, Ike da bes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, Wario is underrated on almost all tier lists except the japanese one. No way DDD, Marth or Robin are better than him.

Seconding this. He's an excellent character who can easily take scummy stocks with an easy Down-B conversion off of a Nair and in a 2-stock meta that's really strong.

+ all his other strengths. He REALLY only struggles with disjointed hitboxes.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Seconding this. He's an excellent character who can easily take scummy stocks with an easy Down-B conversion off of a Nair and in a 2-stock meta that's really strong.

+ all his other strengths. He REALLY only struggles with disjointed hitboxes.

the character to me is top 15 with potential to be even better. im even comfortable fighting against sheik now with him and i used to not be. he goes even with most all the top tiers except zss and even then i need more exp with it. i mean i honestly think he is the most slept on high tier in the game.

 

[Chandeelure]

Time For The Results Of The Official /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

It's that time of the month again where I set up a poll to get how the general public is feeling about characters and track these feelings over time. With Apex just ending it seemed like an extra special time to do this. We changed up how the vote worked this month and allowed players to rank each character 1-10, 1 being the worst, and 10 being the best also allowing the option for them not to answer if they didn't know about the character. We're taking those with the highest averages and placing them first going down till we hit the lowest. We also asked for which characters people feel have the most potential, and those they feel are the most overrated and will list the top 3 in both categories.

Since last month's list was obviously VERY iffy, I wont be doing the usual where I compare how the characters went up and down as it'd be kinda pointless. If this new voting method looks more successful, we can do that again come next month.

HERE IS THE TIER LIST!

For those curious in why I split people where, I did try to make different tiers when there were what looked to be significant number differences. The people in B+, B, and B- where all close but JUST far enough away I couldn't justify keeping them all in the exact same same tier. I see some issues in this list too, but it is by far the best list /r/smashbros has probably put out to date. I think the new voting method did the trick!

This type of tier lists never work IMO.
Like seriously, someone who knows absolutely nothing about the competitive scene can go to the thread and vote for Top Tier Zelda only because she is cute or something like that.
Meta Knight worst than DK, Robin, Falco, Dedede, Bowser Jr. and Lucina...HA!

 

[warionumbah2]

MK on every list i see is either at the bottom,doesn't even get listed at all or slapped into mid because of logic. Edit hol up MK is placed below characters with worse MU across the board and can't even hold a candle to the high tiers. xD

Wario is disgustingly underrated i blame the fact that he isn't a popular nintendo character.

 

[betaclay]

Yeah, Wario is underrated on almost all tier lists except the japanese one. No way DDD, Marth or Robin are better than him.

I disagree. In tournament sets, I've never lost to a Wario main as Dedede.

 

[Runic_SSB]

so i just saw the community voted tier list. do people really think wario is bottom 10? after apex i havent changed my mind on him 1 bit i still think hes top 15 just under played. all his bad MUs are very winniable. what am i missing here?

Wario in this game is a pretty solid character, but he was nerfed pretty bad from Brawl (slower air speed and acceleration, no DACUS, no tires, slower and less safe fsmash, pretty much all of his aerials except bair are worse, etc.). Wario's main draws were his top notch air game and crazy projectile game, the former of which is now a lot worse and the latter is completely gone. While Wario is still good in the air and is much better on the ground than Brawl, Brawlios are just gonna see a straight up worse version of their main and play someone else, so we're gonna have to wait for a new batch of Warios before we can really see his true potential.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Wario in this game is a pretty solid character, but he was nerfed pretty bad from Brawl (slower air speed and acceleration, no DACUS, no tires, slower and less safe fsmash, pretty much all of his aerials except bair are worse, etc.). Wario's main draws were his top notch air game and crazy projectile game, the former of which is now a lot worse and the latter is completely gone. While Wario is still good in the air and is much better on the ground than Brawl, Brawlios are just gonna see a straight up worse version of their main and play someone else, so we're gonna have to wait for a new batch of Warios before we can really see his true potential.

Except ftilt is better bike is better bite is better waft is better and his air mobility is still better than 90% of the cast. Just because u have to play him diff than brawl version doesn't mean he's worse. I think he's better and now there's no grab release or chain grabs.

 

[Ffamran]

No.

I believe you can get in trouble for posting one-liners. Anyway, could you explain why you don't think ZSS is like Brawl/Melee Marth?

 

[wedl!!]

This type of tier lists never work IMO.
Like seriously, someone who knows absolutely nothing about the competitive scene can go to the thread and vote for Top Tier Zelda only because she is cute or something like that.

kind of my thinking as to why palutena is a bottom 5 character despite being super strong out of a down throw conversion (aka: this game's meta in a nutshell)

 

[Ffamran]

kind of my thinking as to why palutena is a bottom 5 character despite being super strong out of a down throw conversion (aka: this game's meta in a nutshell)

Unless you're Greninja... I don't know Greninja's combos off of throw aside from U-throw to Uair.

 

[Spinosaurus]

While it is true that Brawl Wario > Smash 4 Wario when you only look into their moveset, let's not forget that Smash4 Wario benefits a LOT from the new environment of this game. There's just a whole lot less BS that held Brawl Wario back in Brawl, and he didn't get nerfed in a significant way. He got as much new tools as he lost some old ones. He's different, not necessarily worse when you consider all the factors.

Wario is disgustingly underrated i blame the fact that he isn't a popular nintendo character.

He's hugely popular, but only in a "love to hate" sense lmao.

 

[Chandeelure]

kind of my thinking as to why palutena is a bottom 5 character despite being super strong out of a down throw conversion (aka: this game's meta in a nutshell)

Well, she is pretty bad.
AR and Counter are useless, I don't know why her Counter is so slow and weak at the same time, at least Lucina or Shulk have powerful Counters IMO.
Palutena's Tilts are terrible, her Down Smash is really bad too and you can DI out of her Down Throw combos, except for the Forward Air one (like 11% damage XD).

 

[Runic_SSB]

Except ftilt is better bike is better bite is better waft is better and his air mobility is still better than 90% of the cast. Just because u have to play him diff than brawl version doesn't mean he's worse. I think he's better and now there's no grab release or chain grabs.

I never denied any of that, and even said that he's a solid character regardless of the nerfs. Spinosaurus pretty much summed up my thoughts on the character.

 

[wedl!!]

Well, she is pretty bad.
AR and Counter are useless, I don't know why her Counter is so slow and weak at the same time, at least Lucina has a powerful counter IMO.
Palutena's Tilts are terrible, her Down Smash is really bad too and you can DI out of her Down Throw combos, except for the Forward Air one (like 11% damage XD).

her defaults are pretty bad, yeah, but that doesn't make the character entirely terrible. diddy has bad specials (peanut popgun is not that good at all and up-b is terrible) and passable tilts. you can also di his downthrow. does that make diddy a bad character?

also unlike diddy palutena's customs aren't completely awful

 

[Chandeelure]

her defaults are pretty bad, yeah, but that doesn't make the character entirely terrible. diddy has bad specials (peanut popgun is not that good at all and up-b is terrible) and passable tilts. you can also di his downthrow. does that make diddy a bad character?

Diddy's Tilts are amazing.
His Down Throw combos are much more powerful than Palutena's.
And bad Specials?
Monkey Flip and Banana plz.

 

[Nu~]

Pac's fruit clanks with Samus' charge shot, hooray

Even better. Melon and above absorb it completely and keep moving

 

[wedl!!]

Diddy's Tilts are amazing.
His Down Throw combos are much more powerful than Palutena's.
And bad Specials?
Monkey Flip and Banana plz.

i didn't specifically say that diddy's special kit was all around terrible.

ftilt is ok and i can't find a reason to use utilt over dtilt other than that it hits higher. they're not amazing.

i'm not comparing their overall strength from their downthrow, I'm saying that palutena has a bunch of options out of it similarly to diddy.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Palutena without customs is, IMO, the worst character in the game. She has pretty good aerials but all of her other options suck. Sound familiar?

 

[Liduri]

HERE IS THE TIER LIST!

I disagree with wario, kirby, didy kong. But preaty well in my opinion.

 

[Chandeelure]

i didn't specifically say that diddy's special kit was all around terrible.

ftilt is ok and i can't find a reason to use utilt over dtilt other than that it hits higher. they're not amazing.

i'm not comparing their overall strength from their downthrow, I'm saying that palutena has a bunch of options out of it similarly to diddy.

I´m not a Diddy expert, but I'm pretty sure his Down Tilt is excellent, his Up Tilt is good too, I think.
Palutena has some good options, but her as a Bottom 5 character is not that weird.

 

[wedl!!]

Palutena without customs is, IMO, the worst character in the game. She has pretty good aerials but all of her other options suck. Sound familiar?

brawl ganon also existed in a game with icies and mk. palutena doesn't.

"all of her other options suck" umm jab and usmash???

 

[Emblem Lord]

For the record no one quite has Marth's gameplan in this game. ZSS is the closest because of her flow and ability to seamlessly create trap situations and flow from one to the other with little risk to her self and she doesn't really commit.

Shulk has the buttons, but not the trap flow. ZSS has the flow which I think is important to alot of Marth players.

Marth was a combination of high priority footsies (he still has this), good mobility, and being able to control his opponent at very little risk to himself and get a large reward or simply reset the situation so his opponent must now guess again.

If you just look at buttons or play at mid level it's easy to say Shulk or Ike, but really they are just about dominance through spacing, not so much their control game.

ZSS has that control game that high level Marth's look for.

Sheik is another answer that alot of Marth's are going too. NEO and Mr.R come to mind and I have been using her too. Mostly i like the mobility and the edgeguarding. She traps well though not as well as ZSS.

Also after playing Marth and Lucina for a bit I DEFINITELY struggle to get kills with Lucina not Marth. With Marth once someone hits 120% I'm not even look for f-smash. Tipper f-tilt or tipper bair all day. Both are very reliable and f-tilt is a solid button to shut down aerial approaches. Tipper Bair is pure edgeguarding gold and safe when full jumped. Lucina just doesn't have those options.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Palutena without customs is, IMO, the worst character in the game. She has pretty good aerials but all of her other options suck. Sound familiar?

Ganon's u smash, f tilt, d tilt, and wiz choke want a word.

 

[Runic_SSB]

brawl ganon also existed in a game with icies and mk. palutena doesn't.

Ganon's awfulness had absolutely nothing to do with MK or Icies. If the top 10 were completely different characters, he'd still be at the bottom.

"all of her other options suck" umm jab and usmash???

That's not really any better.

 

[Zebkeet]

Link B tier? Get 'em outta There!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Palutena without customs is, IMO, the worst character in the game. She has pretty good aerials but all of her other options suck. Sound familiar?

Fantastic jab, strong aerials, dash attack, Barrier, Warp and Auto-reticle are all servicable. Smashes do what they need to, U-smash has its charm.

What she lacks is ready-to-go tilts, however last I checked she does considerable shield damage with them.


I don't consider anything like Ganondorf.

 

[Sux]

Wario is wayyy too low on the reddit tier list, he is definitely a top 10-15 character. I'm not even too good at Smash 4 and I can easily dominate people online with him. He is a very versatile character with a great recovery, good air game, good kill move, good gimping ability and he's also great for stage control

 

[LonkQ]

Palutena without customs is, IMO, the worst character in the game. She has pretty good aerials but all of her other options suck. Sound familiar?

On a superficial level, she kind of reminds me of Brawl Ike. Aerials work fine, jab is great for mixups, but tilts tend to be lacking and smashes are only for reads for the most part. If there's any character I feel down about, it's Zelda. She just feels really limited and unsafe. Her aerials are garbage for the most part and her ground game isn't all that good either. I can't figure out anything good about this character except early elevator kills and Dtilt.

 

[OddCrow]

On a superficial level, she kind of reminds me of Brawl Ike. Aerials work fine, jab is great for mixups, but tilts tend to be lacking and smashes are only for reads for the most part. If there's any character I feel down about, it's Zelda. She just feels really limited and unsafe. Her aerials are garbage for the most part and her ground game isn't all that good either. I can't figure out anything good about this character except early elevator kills and Dtilt.

One of the best in norcal uses palutena.

Grab combos, amazing ground speed, a good projectile, a good recovery, amazing jabs, decent kill power and the best dash attack in the game - I think all lend into Palutena being a good character who simply lacks a few tools

EDIT: I thought you were talking about palutena the whole way through, not zelda. oh well my points stand

 

[Emblem Lord]

Palutena is ass

 

[CHOMPY]

I can at least shed some light on what I feel with some of the characters.



Pros

+ Side B has super armor
+ Fsmash comes out really fast
+ Can kill at early percentage
+ Power of Flight (Up B) is one of the best recoveries in the game
+ Awesome pivot grab and dash grab
+ Great early percent combos, especially the dthrow-usmash/aerials
+ Arrows can possibly gimp characters that have trouble getting back on stage
+ Dair can spike, but you have to be precise on where you land it
+ Guardian Orbitars can block Diddys uair shananaginz
+ He can handle a lot high pressure situations, thanks some its long-lasting hit box moves
+ It's impossible to hit Pit when he's trying to get back on stage, thanks to the arrows, guardian orbitars, and the upperdash arm
+ Multiple jumps

Cons

- Upperdash arm has a ton of ending lag if it whiffs, so it's very punishable
- Trouble with the upperdash arm is the knockback has an RNG factor (it can either kill early, or kill at a higher percentage)
- Up B has no hitbox, so you can actually stage spike him
- Horrible grab, when your trying to punish someone
- Floaty, meaning its hard to move Pit around when he's in the air
- Has a hard time killing, so you have to be very patient on how you finish the kills



Pros

+ A lot of the moves are safe and don't have much lag.
+ The tilts has a lot of combo potential, especially the
+ Side B is actually a god send, as long as your anywhere above or the center part of the blastzone
+ In the right hands, this character can take on any others without fear.
+ Due to the customization options, no Mii is quite the same, making it unpredictable and dangerous.+ He has a few spikes, which is his Dair and Up B (Ike)

Cons

- The jump height is a bit lacklustre.
- The grab range isn't too great.
- Some of the moves are so bad they should never be used, so that lowers Mii's arsenal power.
- Being that he has no range, its going to be a struggle landing the kill moves.
- His edgeguarding options aren't very effective at edgeguarding.



Pros

+ Aerials have excellent range
+ Jab to grab
+ Dthrow to any aerail
+ Uair can kill light characters as early as 60% (if shes in rage mode).
+ Nair can suck the characters in, like a vaccuum cleaner
+ Reflector can counter the Pikmin pretty hard
+ Fair to grab is helpful
+ Warp to any cancelled aerial off the ledge is actually pretty cool, but you have to be precise.


Cons

- One of the slowest tilts in the game, in terms of ending lag
- Horrible grab range. She is so tall that you can't even grab the smaller characters, like Kirby and Pikachu.
- Auto-Reticle is pretty much useless.
- Counter comes out way to slow, and doesn't last as long as most characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Palutena without cutom specials is kinda dysfunctional. Her default set is actually one of the worst she could possibly have.

 

[wedl!!]

Palutena is ***

quality post

i'm happy that olimar is getting recognition now though.

 

[CHOMPY]

Were pretty much in a agreement that is Bottom 10

What do you guys think of after that performance from Dabuz at APEX? Do you guy feel like deserves to be in the top 10?

 

[wedl!!]

What do you guys think of after that performance from Dabuz at APEX? Do you guy feel like deserves to be in the top 10?

olimar can't deal with rushdown that well and loses to characters with fast options that murder pikmin (luigi, sonic). i still think he has potential, moreso as a pocket character to counter diddy.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Palutena ain't bottom 10 with custom specials though.

Olimar is a very solid character among a ****load of very solid characters. I don't know where he'll establish himself but top 10 seems like a stretch to me.

 

[AvariceX]

Wario is wayyy too low on the reddit tier list, he is definitely a top 10-15 character. I'm not even too good at Smash 4 and I can easily dominate people online with him. He is a very versatile character with a great recovery, good air game, good kill move, good gimping ability and he's also great for stage control

Bad players beating other bad players (especially online) doesn't make a character good and is irrelevant to tier discussion. I don't really mean to call you bad either but you said yourself you aren't very good. You have to assume two top level players playing the matchups to estimate how good a character is; if you don't then it could be the fault of the player and not the character that the character seems bad or good.

That said, Wario IS good and probably top 15.

I want to post some of my recent thoughts but I'm at work and won't go into too much detail. For what it's worth I've read every single post in this thread from the beginning (except the few people I've ignored), I've just been lurking for a while.

Firstly, there is no concrete top 5 right now, it's a top 4 and it has two levels.

There's no point separating these two yet. Diddy is the more reliable tournament pick right now since he's the best or one of the best and easy to learn, but I suspect that with enough time to refine Sheik she will be better. I cringe every time I see someone compare Diddy to the absurdity that was Brawl MK, nothing in this game is anywhere close to that level. Likewise though I cringe when I see him compared to UMvC3 Wesker (partially because there's like two of you in this entire thread who even have a basic grasp of that game); Wesker had an inherently limited toolset with exploitable weaknesses and there was only so far it could go, but it was still a very strong and easy toolset to use. Diddy has virtually no big weaknesses and his moveset will be among the best forever.


Before 1.04 I thought Rosalina was actually #1. Recently I started to lose faith in her as I just saw her being outclassed in mobility and mixup by the other top tiers. After watching dabuz though she's capable of a lot more than I realized and I already thought she was one of the best. She's the best immobile turret in the game and you really don't have a choice but to fight on her terms, especially if you rely on a projectile game normally. Sonic is Sonic, there's not much to be said that hasn't already, he's extremely mobile and his mixup game is ridiculous. Before Apex I thought only Diddy and Sheik were better than Sonic, now I'm not sure who's better between him and Rosalina.

The candidates for #5:


Right now I'm really leaning towards Luigi as #5. He's showing incredible results and it's really hard to deny the strength of his combo game and kill power. He has mobility problems but I think those are a little less pronounced in this game (unless you're against someone like Sonic); he's going to get in eventually, shields and projectiles aren't nearly as good as they were in Brawl and you can't run away forever in this game. Once he's in your face he is the most threatening character in the game.

Ness is basically what Brawl Ness should have been. I mained him for 3 years in Brawl as terrible of an idea that was, but the Ness I see now is exactly how I envisioned Brawl Ness playing originally, Brawl just turned out to have a lot of bs that was awful for Ness. He still has some really bad matchups though which is why I hesitate to put him in the top 5.

Brawler is the biggest wildcard in my mind right now. With customs on he is unquestionably top 5-6, maybe even higher, but even without them he's still great. Personally I think customs on is the only meta that should matter since it is a lot more interesting, fun, and balanced, but the fact is we don't really see a customs meta yet. I fully expect Brawler to be a common tournament staple once more people pick him up, with or without customs.

ZSS is the one you're probably wondering about while reading this. Everyone else seems to have her locked in top 5. She's a great character, but she still has big weaknesses that the other top characters don't have to worry about, and even some of the strengths people see aren't really that strong. Her grab is terrible, and although the reward is fantastic the other top tiers get fantastic reward with good grabs. Flip Kick is simply not good in neutral despite what common stream footage would have you believe (I forget if it was EL or SFP who pointed this out but just run under her and shield then punish for free, every single time). Her kill power is nearly as bad as Sheik's outside of a couple hard reads/punishes (down+B and up+B) but she doesn't have nearly as powerful of a neutral game as Sheik to build easy damage and force her opponent into awful situations. Paralyzer is pretty mediocre as a projectile too (momentum tricks with it are great though); it clanks with everything, at short range it is too risky and at long range either you fully charge it which can easily be reacted to and punished or you don't charge it and you get no reward from the stun at that range. I know I'm only highlighting her weaknesses here but that's because everyone already knows her strengths. Someone mentioned recently that people have been saying ZSS is overrated but no one explains why - this is me explaining why.

After that it's nearly impossible to say where the other characters will end up. We know some are good (Fox, Falcon) and some are bad (Zelda, Samus) but for the most part the game is really well balanced, and in my opinion will be even more so once we start playing the correct way (with customs on).

Dabuz' Olimar was a pleasant surprise. I expected Olimar to be better than we had given him credit for, it's nice to see someone show it. Still not sure he's a great character, but he can hang with the good ones. Really happy to see aMSa's Greninja too, I was starting to lose hope in one of my favourite characters until he came along. I would not be surprised at all to see any of the following characters usually thought of as a little weaker show off more than we realized they were capable of and pull some big upsets:


This is probably more than I should have typed while at work...

 

[Smog Frog]

i honestly cant comprehend how anyone can find puff weak if they just study the character for like a half hour

 

[AvariceX]

Puff is strong, but outside of this thread and maybe the puff boards I don't really see that sentiment echoed a lot. It's not common to hear people say Puff is weak, but I have heard it (I usually stop talking to those people shortly after). I didn't mean to call any of those characters specifically weak, just that I've heard some negative opinions of them.