Character Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

I find it very silly that people legitimately think Charizard is better than either Bowser or DK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All the better to land bair with . Seriously, Shulk's aerials would be overpowered if his inertia wasn't so bad, and I think it actually helps him immensely by giving him hit-and-run capabilities. He's basically hitting and spacing at the same time. Bair would be a lot worse if Shulk didn't auto-space himself to set it up every time he made a big jump. Plus he has nair, so who needs to weave anyway? Lol.

@Emblem Lord Dragon Rush is good on Zard, since no one acknowledged your question, because its basically Flare Blitz but much safer, it traps opponents like Twisting Fox and applies offstage pressure without the brutal drawback of whiffing Blitz (bouncing off and being stunned, and taking damage). Basically, imagine MK's Drill if it killed earlier, did more damage, and didn't leave him helpless. It has all the same advantages of FB, but sacrifices a little power and the armor in favor of being much harder to avoid and much, much safer, especially offstage. The fact that it was like the only custom to my knowledge to get nerfed by 1.0.4 is testament to its power.

*sigh* nair is a 13 frame aerial that hits from behind. That's not safe on block unless you're in buster. It's probably one of if not the worst nair in the game. That move is hot garbage please don't act like it's some gdlk move.

 

[Deathcarter]

Agreed, every character in my signature has downthrow follow-ups. Some characters' throws were booty in Melee and 64.



Just wanted to expand on the point I just made, I think you see grabbing vastly more in other gens because they tend to facilitate combos rather than just kills.

Random thought of the night: I feel like I NEVER hear about Fox and that there seem to be very few Fox mains. Shofu is literally the only one I can think of. Correct me, anyone?

Doesn't NAKAT main Fox? I know Larry Lurr does.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I find it very silly that people legitimately think Charizard is better than either Bowser or DK.

Thats kinda hurtfull. Like i do think charazard is the weaker of the the heavys but i think its rude to downplay peoples opinion in such a way.

Rather than belittle their arguement why not simply state why you think otherwise and discuss it?

 

[TriTails]

Doesn't NAKAT main Fox? I know Larry Lurr does.

NAKAT indeed use Fox. I have seen him fighting against False's Luigi.

Wait, anyone here know anything about PyroTakun who mains Ike?

Just askin'. Don't ask me why.

 

[Saturn_]

I got it for you.

On Shulk's air game, it mostly boils down to spacing for all of his aerials. Speed works well for nair in particular, but other arts don't really do too much to his air game, sans jump changing the timing.

Shulk's nair-fair combos are sooo much fun in Speed and really one of the big attractions of the character. Others in this thread have said that Speed is the 20xx of Monados. As to your point, the Monados alter his points of approach and his spacing, which 1.) is fun 2.) creates mindgames and 3.) prevents linearity, as talked about on this page.

 

[Yonder]

HolyNightmare won Battle Royale 8 in Ottawa last night with ROB.

Top 8 had one ROB, one Diddy, a Shulk/Olimar, 2 Megaman players, a Sonic, a Luigi, and a Villager (with a pear tree!)

'Dat diversity.

Agreed. When I got in the top 8 of my tourney [I got 7th] out of 80+ people, there were:

0 Diddys [Not even top 16]
1 Doc
1 Pit/Peach [Won the tourney]
1 Pikachu [2nd]
1 DK
1 Sheik
1 Yoshi
1 Mario
1 Luigi [Me]


Now that's diversity! I think Diddy won't stay #1 when it's all said and done, Sheik will overpass him soon enough.

 

[Ulevo]

Thats kinda hurtfull. Like i do think charazard is the weaker of the the heavys but i think its rude to downplay peoples opinion in such a way.

Rather than belittle their arguement why not simply state why you think otherwise and discuss it?

For one, tournament representation and results.

 

[TTTTTsd]

1 Doc

What was the player's name? Either way that's pretty cool, I'm glad Doc has been doing ok in some areas (I know we got Koolaid, and Rice as notable Doc players I can think of immediately.)

 

[Yonder]

What was the player's name? Either way that's pretty cool, I'm glad Doc has been doing ok in some areas (I know we got Koolaid, and Rice as notable Doc players I can think of immediately.)

Len/Alan. He was pretty solid from what I saw, especially setting up to F Smash. Got a nice tornado kill too. Only really got wrecked later on because of his bad recovery leading to lots of gimps.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

For one, tournament representation and results.

Charazard has better/ more tourny results than bowser.

 

[Ffamran]

kinda almost everybody in the game has good grab follow ups really though.

kirby and yoshi are exeptions i can think of off the top my head that don't fit into that said category though.

This might just be lag and incorrect DI, but can't Kirby D-throw to Fair grab reset Ganondorf? I had it happen when I was playing as Ganondorf and I think as Falco and maybe ZSS, but I don't remember well since I was in rage yesterday dealing with a dude who could read everything I did just by shielding and rolling back and forth with Kirby, ZSS, and Fox. There's a point where I feel like the world is ******* on and laughing at me and that was yesterday's series of unfortunate matches. There is no reason a person can shield, spot dodge, air dodge, and roll past every move you make even if you feint them. The other Kirby grab reset happened a day or two ago and it was someone else. I think I won, but it was kind of surprising to see Kirby be able to grab reset Ganondorf.

As for Yoshi, can't he follow up after throws like Pac-Man, but both of them suffer from bad grabs? I think Yoshi can D-throw to Uair at early percents.

Off-topic: Wolf's D-throw or his throws in general were badass like Captain Falcon, Ike, and Ganondorf's. They had the best D-throw animations where Wolf would claw slam you, Ike would stomp on you like Bruce Lee, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf just literally one hand slam you into the ground like a boss.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This might just be lag and incorrect DI, but can't Kirby D-throw to Fair grab reset Ganondorf? I had it happen when I was playing as Ganondorf and I think as Falco and maybe ZSS, but I don't remember well since I was in rage yesterday dealing with a dude who could read everything I did just by shielding and rolling back and forth with Kirby, ZSS, and Fox. There's a point where I feel like the world is ******* on and laughing at me and that was yesterday's series of unfortunate matches. There is no reason a person can shield, spot dodge, air dodge, and roll past every move you make even if you feint them. The other Kirby grab reset happened a day or two ago and it was someone else. I think I won, but it was kind of surprising to see Kirby be able to grab reset Ganondorf.

As for Yoshi, can't he follow up after throws like Pac-Man, but both of them suffer from bad grabs? I think Yoshi can D-throw to Uair at early percents.

Off-topic: Wolf's D-throw or his throws in general were badass like Captain Falcon, Ike, and Ganondorf's. They had the best D-throw animations where Wolf would claw slam you, Ike would stomp on you like Bruce Lee, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf just literally one hand slam you into the ground like a boss.

From my knowledge yoshi's grab game is not the best. and almost every potential follow up can be di able.

Regarding d throw animations ill always have secret love for peach's booty d throw. Also mewtwo had the smexiest f throw ever.

 

[Ulevo]

Charazard has better/ more tourny results than bowser.

Prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejv4MvI0HSE&list=TLIpwVLqD4G08

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejv4MvI0HSE&list=TLIpwVLqD4G08

lol hostle huh?

i did not bring up dk for a reason you know. i just said Bowser. Trela and bloodcross have put in work with these characters. name me a promonent bowser main.

Blood cross at the slg tourny on clash tournaments

and trela since forever.

 

[Ffamran]

lol hostle huh?

i did not bring up dk for a reason you know. i just said Bowser. Trela and bloodcross have put in work with these characters. name me a promonent bowser main.

Blood cross at the slg tourny on clash tournaments

and trela since forever.

Oco Le Troof plays Bowser, but I don't think he's a household name. Same with Exist? I think that's his name. And there's @Xadrin who plays Bowser.

 

[HeroMystic]

Once again be carefull with your double posting use the edit feature instead.

also toronto joe and NAKAT use fox as well.

San Antonio also has Megafox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=556AK_1wU-w

He has went toe-to-toe with Texas' best players, including AeroLink and Denti.

 

[Timbers]

San Antonio also has Megafox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=556AK_1wU-w

He has went toe-to-toe with Texas' best players, including AeroLink and Denti.

What was going on with the throw followups from Diddy? Was he just doing a poor job at following DI? Megafox was going unscathed from throws after 40-50%. It also looked like maybe Fox was actually being thrown too far to combo, but watching Larry vs Tyrant, Tyrant always gets followups on Fox.

 

[HeroMystic]

Was he just doing a poor job at following DI?

Pretty much this.

The matches between from our SAM2 Tournament (where AeroLink, Denti, Dojo and more attended) will be uploaded in due time.

 

[Vincent21]

I tell every single Mac player I see. Learn your options. Master perfect pivoting and tilts/smashes out of perfect pivots. Use pivot grabs. Foxtrot/dash dance.

Lacking a short hop game does not make you linear. It just means that you need to master your ground tech and incorporate it into your game.

Yeah. Preaching to the choir. I'm definitely aware I'm just not the player I need to be (though I doubt anyone here whose played me would call me a pushover) and that what I'm talking about is player-centric, HOWEVER what I'm trying to say and express is that the characters I listed create a mental environment in their players where that kind of problem plagues even high level play. That's a problem worth acknowledging to prevent characters from being shortchanged. Like if Charizard players can't get around things like "the sheer reward proper read flare blitz bring in are worth eating some punishes" or thinking that basically says "if an option is good, do what's good" because it causes critical linearity in available footage. Development then slows down.

I started winning games by knowing my character's strengths so well that I could just overpower people by doing things they think they could punish and bleeding % out of them for it, but because over several wins I was conditioned to this I eventually had a crash and I realized how easily some characters linearize. Like with Tink or Villager for example it's hard to fall into a rhythm because controlling neutral the way they do requires constantly designing set-ups out of your various tools from scratch in order to limit the options they rely on; you don't only play reactive but your proactive game and literally a paper machete based on option templates (example: Tink Bomb Boomerang mix-up has like a template, like throw boomerang over w/bomb in hand, fast-fall throw bomb approach and nair, but say when you draw the bomb falcon rushes you? It becomes say uncharged arrow > boomerang crossup > bomb > DA >... STUFF). You don't stagnate nearly as easily.

It's a PSA to the people!

The lack of creativity is definitely an issue in the community. You can escape linearity by more than making your opponent press buttons. For example, I jab with Bowser leaving me with a +7 advantage, there are a number of things I can do here.

1. Bowser Bomb
2. Fire Breath
3. Grab
4. Jump Over
5. Run Away

That's just a few of things I could do in that scenario.

Another issue with linearity is that players like to go for the biggest rewards. These are often balanced though where the game resets to neutral after. Instead of following up a throw with an attack, I could run up behind where they're going to land and then think of something.

We have to think outside of the box. It's things like this that make me think the likes of Palutena, Zelda, and especially Wii Fit Trainer are being slept on.

I agree, though I feel it's worth mentioning I was talking about Little Mac in specific and then expanded later. Making people press buttons is a totally Little Mac thing to do; you get arguably more reward than any other character in the game on people who press too many offensive buttons.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Charizard has even more grab range and has a dthrow that kills. Charizard also has jab cancel shenanigans into grabs, something I haven't seen on DK (but I can't promise it doesn't exist?). DK has some real advantages, but I think on balance Charizard is a more capable character (just a lot less popular).

D-tilt trip to grab is guarenteed at any percent. (40% chance to trip).
But yeah, after expirementing around with it, I think the Zard might actually be better. His OoS options are ridiculously powerful with a 6 frame u-smash and an up special with invincibility. Also, I'm convinced his jab combo is one of the best in the game.

 

[Vincent21]

But anyways, my original point is that alot of chars we think are linear aren't actually. Linear means straight forward. What you is what you get. Not alot of variance in strategy. Very little mix-up potential or set-up potential. That is definitely not CF.

CF has spaced d-tilt, SH RAR bair, SH cross-up bair, SH single hit nair, SH two hit nair, empty SH grab(too good), Dash attack, dash grab, SH Uair, Cross up Uair (hella good)

Cross-up Uair makes me feel alive Falcon is so great that way.

This is exactly what I'm talking about though someone PICKS UP Falcon and DA, dash grab, SH bair and nair are all they see and all they do the list falls apart because the players get rewarded for cheese.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I saw Dark.Pch on Shofu's stream go try-hard, and he did a float (an inch off the ground, because of course) into a fair which was shielded, into a fair which was shielded, into a third fair that landed for the kill. It wasn't until I tried to recreate it in Training that I realized he must have used every single second of available floating to pull it off. Crazy technical.

You can use up to three aerials during her float.

 

[Ultinarok]

*sigh* nair is a 13 frame aerial that hits from behind. That's not safe on block unless you're in buster. It's probably one of if not the worst nair in the game. That move is hot garbage please don't act like it's some gdlk move.

As someone who mains Rosalina, and not Shulk, no offense but you have no idea what you're talking about. A 13 frame aerial with the longest range and some of the longest lasting hitboxes in the game, coupled with ease of use in a SH, coupled with virtually non-existent landing lag, topped with the ability to hit below basically immediately (it starts from behind but hits below him only a couple frames in) make Shulk's nair one of the game's best. It allows for grab follow-ups very quickly, so being "unsafe on shield" doesn't even matter that much. It also nullifies projectile spam. The move auto-cancels the rest of the animation when you land as well. Its utility cannot be understated, because its pretty much the beginning of most of Shulk's options in every Monado mode.

You've already hilariously claimed he's a bottom five character, so most of your opinion on him is, no offense, rather nullified by that statement. I could go on a million reasons why Rosa is actually my least favorite character in the game (I do no enjoy her in any capacity no matter how many times I try to use her) but it wouldn't change that she's among the best, and I accept that regardless of my own opinions, and respect those that main her and know her strengths. I wouldn't proclaim her to be worse than she is and undersell her signature moves when I am not in a position to do so. And you shouldn't either. I guarantee I've played Shulk far, far more than you have.

Don't undersell characters you aren't even proficient with, because no matter how much frame data you acquire, you always fail to look at the bigger picture. You did it in previous posts too. Frame data doesn't matter when your attack auto-cancels, is almost lagless, and has the best range in the game for a move of its kind.

And I'm not going to start an argument here, so don't bother with the "Shulk is garbage, botom 5, atks 2 slo" rant, because, believe me, I'm not fond of your character either, but I won't put anyone down for using her.


On the topic everyone else is actually talking about, I see Charizard as being a different character than DK and Bowser, and he does have a niche. His attack style is definitely different, as many of his attacks have unusual properties, like wing disjoint, tail fire sweetspots, and the splash damage of Down Smash. Charizard is a character that people really need to practice to use well because his fighting style isn't as simplistic. I feel like his complicated style, combined with a somewhat low reward (its no Rosalina or MK reward) has discouraged people from using him and representing him at tournaments, but he has potential, especially with customs being on.

 

[Sinister Slush]

People usually forget about megafox, HM, cause people just pay attention to 2 stock meta and the NJ/Coast areas. Too lazy to branch out and actively search for things.

If it wasn't for you bringing up espy the few times sonic was brought up in this thread the past 2 or so months, people would only keep remembering about 6wx.

 

[Flamecircle]

As someone who mains Rosalina, and not Shulk, no offense but you have no idea what you're talking about. A 13 frame aerial with the longest range and some of the longest lasting hitboxes in the game, coupled with ease of use in a SH, coupled with virtually non-existent landing lag, topped with the ability to hit below basically immediately (it starts from behind but hits below him only a couple frames in) make Shulk's nair one of the game's best. It allows for grab follow-ups very quickly, so being "unsafe on shield" doesn't even matter that much. It also nullifies projectile spam. The move auto-cancels the rest of the animation when you land as well. Its utility cannot be understated, because its pretty much the beginning of most of Shulk's options in every Monado mode.

It's also funny because Rosalina has some of the slowest aerials out there, and they are still considered good moves.

 

[Ffamran]

It's also funny because Rosalina has some of the slowest aerials out there, and they are still considered good moves.

Lingering hitboxes. Here's Rosalina's move hit frames. Uair alone has 3 hitboxes while Fair hits 3 times during frames 11-25 before finishing off at frame 27-28. Should I mention that she has range? People keep mentioning about disjoints, but I don't know where. Now, look at Falco's. Gee, I wonder why he's not good with his good frame data. Oh, right, he's slower than a turtle hucked through the air. A sumo wrestler could move faster in the air than Falco for some reason and the closest thing we have to that is Wario.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 18-22, 23-27, 28-32, 33-37, (infinite), 42-43|8-10, 16-18, 27-29, 31-35, 36-40, 41-45, 46-50, (infinite), 59-61
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-17|6-9, 17-19
Ftilt|6-8|7-9
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|9-17
Dtilt|7-9|5-8
Side Smash|17-19 or 20|16-18
Up Smash|8-12, 14-19|8-16
Down Smash|7-9|6-7 or 17-18
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-23|9-34 or 35-46
Fair|12-17, 18-23, 24-29, 30-34, 35-36|11-25, 27-28
Bair|4-5 or 7-11|9-11
Uair|10-14|8-18 or 11-21 or 22-29
Dair|16-18 or 19-31|17-17 or 18-22, or 23-25 or 26-32
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10

From the Falco board's Rosalina MU discussion if anyone's interested: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...-rosalina-luma-to-infinity-and-beyond.392185/.

Yay, shameless promoting.

 

[Flamecircle]

Lingering hitboxes. Here's Rosalina's move hit frames. Uair alone has 3 hitboxes while Fair hits 3 times during frames 11-25 before finishing off at frame 27-28. Should I mention that she has range? People keep mentioning about disjoints, but I don't know where. Now, look at Falco's. Gee, I wonder why he's not good with his good frame data. Oh, right, he's slower than a turtle hucked through the air. A sumo wrestler could move faster in the air than Falco for some reason and the closest thing we have to that is Wario.


From the Falco board's Rosalina MU discussion if anyone's interested: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...-rosalina-luma-to-infinity-and-beyond.392185/.

Yay, shameless promoting.

Hitbox size is definitely relevant. Shulk's nair hitbox definitely feels about as good.

In contrast, Falco's are often small (though the jab is huge), which makes him struggle in combination with his poor air speed. Even better Frame Data would help too, the same way Luigi is a beast. Still not writing Falco off as bad yet, though.

 

[Ffamran]

Hitbox size is definitely relevant. Shulk's nair hitbox definitely feels about as good.

In contrast, Falco's are often small (though the jab is huge), which makes him struggle in combination with his poor air speed. Even better Frame Data would help too, the same way Luigi is a beast. Still not writing Falco off as bad yet, though.

I think it's like what someone here said about early metas favoring rushdown and aggressive play styles. Zero's Diddy was aggressive and defensive, Dabuz's Rosalina stood against Abadango's also defensive Pac-Man. Sometimes, that throws people off. In Brawl, I believe - I'm not sure on this - Falco was defensive, but Wolf was aggressive as all hell.

For now, we'll be seeing offensive and offensive-defensive play styles more than defensive and defensive-offensive.

I usually see Falcos taking the game defensive and punisher like to excel the best compared to offensive ones. The only issue with that play style is that you have to pull an S-rank like in hack 'n' slash games and never get hit. Falco can't tank hits like Ganondorf.

So, it's more about controlling the pace of the battle. Dabuz controlled the pace against Abadango while Zero controlled every match's pace.

 

[Kofu]

Judge is inherently risky as a follow up, even after Dthrow. It doesn't need to be Uair, its just the most effective aerial move G&W has.

I'd disagree with UAir being his most effective aerial, mainly because it can he a chore getting both hits to connect. 16% is great and it kills, but the hits don't link well. FAir and NAir are usually better IMO (UAir is still great though).

DTilt can also be use to screw with some momentum-altering specials. I know that if Pit/Dark Pit is stupid enough to try and side-b onto the stage, you can DTilt them up and get a free followup on them before they land. I believe aerial Flare Blitz is the same.

 

[HeroMystic]

People usually forget about megafox, HM, cause people just pay attention to 2 stock meta and the NJ/Coast areas. Too lazy to branch out and actively search for things.

If it wasn't for you bringing up espy the few times sonic was brought up in this thread the past 2 or so months, people would only keep remembering about 6wx.

You're right. To be fair though, we only just now started streaming our events.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Streaming isn't really the issue, we're at least one of the few regions that post our results on smashboards, realistically been doing so on here for years still over defaulting to facebook exclusively like some places.

What else more do we need to do for exposure, Reddit and twitter too?
Instagram and Snapchat?
Maybe 4chan.

I would like to say I guess it's too much and people too lazy to ask for most people to do three clicks for Smashboards > tournament results > thread and scroll a bit to find stuff, over just reddit front page or Facebook messages

 

[Terotrous]

What I don't get about For Glory (not that this really belongs in this topic but FG came up here so I may as well mention it) is why people are so disrespectful in general. Like you'll SD (or leave due to lag) and the other guy taunts/teabags/whatever else. Taunting among friends or popping off after a hype tournament set is cool and all, but why would you do that to a complete stranger whose disposition/interpretation you know nothing about lol.

I played this dude the other day who was kinda good but had a bad rolling habit, so I 2-stocked him a few matches because the lag was decent enough to punish the rolls, and then tried to give him some advice via the messages, like "TryNotRolling" and "UseMoreDtilt" and so on. Next match, not only does he roll, but he does nothing else but roll. It's almost like he wanted to spite me for my unsolicited advice. lol. Maybe it's just an age thing and I'm playing 16 year olds. Who knows. I wasn't that rude when I was 16, I can tell you that much.

In For Glory, they can't see your messages, that's only for friend matches.


Anyway, For Glory makes me sad. First of all, like 50% of my matches are against Ness players for some reason. Every now and then I'll find some rare character and then I'll think "Oh sweet, a ______ player", then they'll like only use the B button and get 2 stocked with me having only 30% damage. What a waste.

I did fight a good Doc player the other day though and he bopped my Olimar and even barely won against my Yoshi. I wanted a Yoshi rematch, but he switched to Luigi for whatever reason and I 2-stocked him (unlike Doc, I do somewhat know the Luigi matchup). Then he left. Such is For Glory.

It is often less about internet and more about distance.

If a dude in California is trying to Smash a dude in, like, North Dakota he's going to run into problems. He just is. Distance latency is a killer, so you roll the dice every time you pick a user.

I actually played someone in California (I'm in Ontario) and it was almost totally smooth. Conversely, I've played people in New York and had lag.

Distance definitely matters, but internet quality is also very important.

Even if you are literally on top of one another (as in, in the same room, but using Internet connection), a minimum of 3-4 frames of input lag will still exist.

If the game uses GGPO (or something similar), it's possible to have zero input lag. Of course, you may occasionally encounter teleporting / slight desync instead, but that's generally less disruptive.

I don't tend to get much input lag in this game (whenever there's delay the game just starts running slower instead), so I figure this game's netcode is some GGPO variant where it starts reducing the game speed if the packets don't arrive for too long (as opposed to approximating / teleporting).

Sheik with all of her insane frame data would not be Top Tier without needles, a practically invisible stage-length projectile that forces others to approach, can be held for infinite mindgames, does sizable damage fully charged, and can be used to get KOs and edgeguards in conjunction with Bouncing Fish. Needles are the reason that many matchups are in her favor. No single other factor (like her f-air, her Bouncing Fish, her mobility, etc.) is quite as dominant.

Honestly, needles should probably be a zero knockback projectile like Fox Laser. And I'm not just saying that because Sheik vs Yoshi would probably jump up to even if so, a character like Sheik just shouldn't have potent zoning. Maybe one of the customs can keep knockback but not be storable.

From my knowledge yoshi's grab game is not the best. and almost every potential follow up can be di able.

None of Yoshi's throws lead to anything, except maybe DThrow vs Ganon at 0% or something (even then it might be escapable). This is what keeps him fair.

On the discussion of linearity, I actually feel like Yoshi is one of the least linear characters in the game since he lacks obvious kill options and can mix it up between so many different play styles (rushdown, footsies, zoning, etc). However, I'm not sure if being non-linear is actually a good trait. I think most of the characters that are linear are linear simply because they have some option that is so massively strong that it makes sense to focus their gameplan around it. I suppose you don't want to be the kind of character that is linear because you literally only have one good move, but a linear character with a top tier moveset is always terrifying.

 

[Ulevo]

lol hostle huh?

i did not bring up dk for a reason you know. i just said Bowser. Trela and bloodcross have put in work with these characters. name me a promonent bowser main.

Blood cross at the slg tourny on clash tournaments

and trela since forever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiYA77L2M-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt4YQ9kxv5w

 

[Road Death Wheel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiYA77L2M-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt4YQ9kxv5w

Xanadu.

okay well then. Any regional data?

Xanadu is fine don't get me wrong and i know about le troof and exist but. Its xanadu. Any big tournys where bowser got top 16?

 

[NairWizard]

In For Glory, they can't see your messages, that's only for friend matches.

No, this is false. I've had conversations with my opponents in For Glory.

--

*adds self to ranks of Mario mains* I've tried out most of the Top/High Tiers in tournament, and now that customs are on in my region I'll start using Mario more I think. Won a tournament with Mario this weekend, and my Mario isn't quite at the level of my Pikachu yet; I'm pretty sure that my custom choices drove that win.

(side note: I had considered Luigi for a while, but man, I hate it when people camp Luigi. Nothing could be more boring than having to get in against a Megaman using SH pellets to keep you out, when your aerial mobility is on the level of dead salmon. It's doable, but it's oh-so-frustrating and it kills your motivation to play through say a Winners Finals set (at least it does for me; it wears me out), so "play Mario instead" is my choice)

My view of Mario's customs:

1) Shocking Cape is really, really good
2) Ditto Explosive Jump Punch & Super Jump Punch -- both super useful
3) Ditto High Pressure Fludd -- surprisingly great in most matchups
4) Gust Cape is less impressive than I had imagined when the game came out, but still good in certain MUs
5) Ditto Fast Fireball
6) Fire Orb is... not totally useless. I successfully edgeguarded a DIddy with this! but it did require a mistake from him
7) Scaling Fludd -- I didn't get to use this, but I'm sure there's a use for it. It seems likely.

Out of the Top/High Tiers, Mario is the only one--besides Fox, whom I talked about earlier--who benefits from basically all of his customs. Most characters in top 15 don't really get more than 1-2 useful customs except maybe Olimar (if you view him as top 15, as I do) and Rosalina (but she gets as much against her as for her). The exception of Fox should be qualified: Fox gets better, but not to the extent that Mario gets better, and Fox benefits in kind of a linear way where his major playstyle gets easier to execute. Mario on the other hand gets whole new playstyles from his customs, which is all kinds of amazing.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I would like to say something about peach's customs.

1.High Parasol- Its very good from recovering from low ranges, meaning peach can go deep for a fair but because her aerials are kind of slowish. (fair is slowish) Its best to stay just above the bottom.
2.(I forgot the name of this one)- This parasol can go higher then high parasol with maximum parasol openings and has a hitbox when its opened.
3. Light turnip- Its pretty good and could possibly be better then regular turnip as it cover's peach's approach options while being able to have 3 at a time.
4. Heavy turnip- Its not very useful from what I've experimented with. The trade off is more recovery on pulling the turnip, and less range for slightly better damage and shield chip. It seems best to use for edge guarding but it reduces peach's approach options with the turnip.
5.Flower bomber- Its good for tacking on extra damage but that seems to be about it. It seems like there is more recovery time that comes from whiffing the move which isn't worth it.
6.Flying bomber- It is a great move, it may not sweetspot the ledge but it adds on to her recovery as she can use that in conjunction with her regular parasol to get back onto the stage from a low angle AND have a better chance of saying get off me while off stage.
7.Sleepy toad- It is a good tool to have at low percentages to set up throw combos, and dtilt combos, at higher percents you can go for the kill. The draw back is less active frames, and slightly more recovery.
8.Grumpy toad- is okay as it gives her another projectile, but she loses the stalling ability and it does a small amount of damage.

Most of peach's customs do work for her. Aside from heavy turnip,grumpy toad, and flower bomber. She does great with customs along with her regular set.

 

[Ulevo]

Xanadu.

okay well then. Any regional data?

Xanadu is fine don't get me wrong and i know about le troof and exist but. Its xanadu. Any big tournys where bowser got top 16?

Not without looking, no. Do you know any tournaments where Charizard placed well? Because I don't. Bowser is at least taking tournament games off of known successful players.

 

[Iron Kraken]

In case some people don't know this, Luma Warp has a hitbox. If Luma reappears on your opponent, it puts them into hitstun and moves them slightly forward, which creates a situation in which a follow-up Luma F-Smash is guaranteed (at least if you "sweet spot" it), because Luma can attack almost instantaneously after reappearing. Luma F-Smash has insanely good kill power. Essentially this means that Rosalina has a projectile that is absurdly fast, can't be neutralized by other projectiles, and leads to guaranteed KOs, often even at low %s.

This kill set up is especially effective against characters like ZSS and Mega Man who will try to space you out from a certain distance, because Luma Warp goes right around their attack, and the lag they experience from using such a projectile is a perfect opportunity to connect with it.

At Nebulous in NYC yesterday, I got several KOs this way, including against Nairo's Zelda and NinjaLink's Mega Man.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not without looking, no. Do you know any tournaments where Charizard placed well? Because I don't. Bowser is at least taking tournament games off of known successful players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU62pAJch2s
zard beating orion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYdANVzvBw0
same tourny But Beating ADHD.

trela only has sheet work results.
and most viewable data he has are from 3ds tourny's so i don't know if you would be interested in that.