Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Invincibility UpBs that snap such as Sonic's are also difficult to intercept this way.

What up-bs are invincible besides Sonic's?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What up-bs are invincible besides Sonic's?

Mega has partial invincibility.
I just don't think it'll matter given Zard has SU on fly and still gets popped.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Uhhh ... Yoshi is pretty much universally agreed to be Fox' worst matchup and possibly the only one that Fox loses flat-out. Right now I'm not sure if Yoshi has a losing matchup at all though Sheik seems to be a contender.

What makes you say universally did Nakat or anybody else say that? I feel like if I went up against Megafox at the tournament next month my ass would be grass.
As for losing Matchups, what makes you think this as well? Not disagreeing with this part just curious since I see random posts in other character boards here or there saying they beat yoshi solidly. Most recent being Dabuz saying Rosalina > Yoshi.

 

[NairWizard]

I was going to compile a list of all characters and how they're affected by this observation/discovery, but since I'm shortish on time due to the holiday season I'll just list the effects on characters that I either play or have played in tournament:
(in whom I'm just dabbling, no tourney experience with him yet) is basically unaffected by this, because you should almost never be snapping the ledge unless you cover yourself with an egg first.
is minorly affected. You can angle the up-b, and even go over the stage, so it shouldn't be too big a deal. This does make Thunder spikes much more delicious though. I'm going below the stage WHEEEE. Who's with me!?
Ahem.
should take Jump Glide over Warp if it's a big concern. Super Speed is already a good recovery, though. She should not be affected much if at all.
Not actually sure. It buffs Eruption, true, but does it also hurt his own up-b and side-b? Doesn't side-b snap? I think you can hit Ike out of side-b with this tactic, right before he snaps the ledge. Things like Dedede's b-air can swallow him alive. Even another Ike's Eruption.
Seems like it'd be really hard to hit Shulk with this, but his recovery isn't that good anyway outside of Jump (in which case you're never hitting him with anything like this anyway) or Speed.
Meh, his recovery already kinda sucks. He can just up-b to the stage itself instead if it proves to be a problem, but my opinion of this character's recovery falls every time I play against him in tournament (but that may be a Pikachu-centric standpoint).

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Can Marth and Lucina hit opponents on the ledge with D-Tilt? If so, couldn't they just sit and spam D-Tilt to knock opponents away?

Also, Kirby's "Meteor Stone" custom can kill pretty much every character at 10% while they're hanging from Battlefield's ledges, so using D-Tilt to force a ledge latch and then using Meteor Stone could be fun.

Also, I gotta say that Olimar vs Kirby may be one of the worst MUs in the game. If Kirby can get Olimar's ability, he can out-camp Olimar the whole match. Kirby's Pikmin will destroy Olimar's in one hit, shove him away, can easily kill him at low percents, and create a wall due to the different angles the Pikmin fly in. The only thing that's stopping Kirby is actually getting the Inhale.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

There aren't any good U.S. yoshi players I've seen yet to be honest. There is one Japanese player tho who is destroying with him that I've seen some videos of and its quite scary. I wanna know how yoshi deals with sheik Diddy sonic fox falcon and hell even A high level luigi. Is yoshi still that good if he can't set up a egg tossing game?

 

[Dabuz]

Personally I think Yoshi is veeeeery overrated, on wifi his eggs are a pain but offline they are really easy to dance around and punish, then the rest of his moves are good but not super amazing.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega has partial invincibility.
I just don't think it'll matter given Zard has SU on fly and still gets popped.

If I understand what's going on correctly, it's that the act of ledge snapping has frames of vulnerability before the invulnerability kicks in. If someone could actually do a frame analysis on this, that'd be cool.

Mega Man's up-B has partial invincibility when he's jumping off of Rush, or basically before he's actually recovering. Also, this doesn't hurt Mega Man as much as he can double jump after up-B. Meanwhile, Hard Knuckle is a lasting hitbox projectile that meteors.

Edit: maybe someone should make a thread about this so people who don't read this can be enlightened.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

^^ what about sonic. Now m2k is saying sonic isn't even top 10 where less than a month ago he was all over sonic.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I feel yoshi can be more than just eggs he hits like a truck. His nair OOS is gdlk. But is he enough without eggs against s charades get who is in his face non stop. I know his moves have a ton of priority on them tho and he trades a ton.

 

[Dabuz]

Most his moves while good on block if spaced properly, a lot of his moves linger which makes then easy to beat by outspacing, throwing projectiles, or just whiff punishing. Mispacing them also leads to punishment, finally he has trouble landing the kill move against opponents who know how to avoid his juggle tools.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Most his moves while good on block if spaced properly, a lot of his moves linger which makes then easy to beat by outspacing, throwing projectiles, or just whiff punishing. Mispacing them also leads to punishment, finally he has trouble landing the kill move against opponents who know how to avoid his juggle tools.

R u talking yoshi ?

 

[Dabuz]

R u talking yoshi ?

Yeah.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

What I like about sonic is he can be played completely safe for the most part. I just feel he's to predictsble when going for a kill.

 

[Warlock*G]

My main character is superior to a top tier.

Oh no a teir list lets complain then talk about it regardless.

Diddy just got a counter guys.

Fk u ganon's not bad.

Random character discussion

*edit* Occasional post of this threads cycle @Luco

Pikachus actually god.

Falco's being slept on

Mario debate.

This is the natural cycle of this thread. and i love every moment of it. xd

You forgot the last step of the cycle:

~Some guy sums up the cycle in a nonchalant way~

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What makes you say universally did Nakat or anybody else say that? I feel like if I went up against Megafox at the tournament next month my *** would be grass.
As for losing Matchups, what makes you think this as well? Not disagreeing with this part just curious since I see random posts in other character boards here or there saying they beat yoshi solidly. Most recent being Dabuz saying Rosalina > Yoshi.

Nakat, myself and virtually the entire Fox board has Yoshi as a losing matchup. As far as I know it's the only matchup that's undisputed among the Fox players. Other characters that have been mentioned as difficult were Sonic, Pikachu and Little Mac but opinions on these matchups vary a lot more. Yoshi seems to be the only character that virtually all Fox payer can agree on to be a losing one.

Yoshi is a character devoid of weaknesses. He's mobile. He's heavy. His recovery is reliable and no-nonsense. He's fantastic in neutral, can put the opponent into a disadvantaged position pretty easily and is pretty good at resetting back to neutral if he's put into a dsadvantaged position himself. His damage output is amazing both in neutral and in the advantaged position. His KO setups are safe, reliable and lead into powerful moves like usmash and air. He has plenty of tools that allow him to bypass defensive options without having to go for a hard read. He wrecks shields or just ignores them. Spotdodging is not an option against Yoshi. Even rolls are never safe.

Yoshi may or may not have losing matchups. I'm not saying he doesn't. But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't. The pool of contenders looks pretty small to me.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

How is yoshis off stage game?

 

[san.]

Can Marth and Lucina hit opponents on the ledge with D-Tilt? If so, couldn't they just sit and spam D-Tilt to knock opponents away?

From what I tested, you need a sizable hitbox below the ledge. I think you either have to hit at the opponent's location right before he autosnaps or inbetween there and the ledge. Probably why teleporting recoveries are easier since they tend to be higher up with a predictable timing. Even a normal double jump to the ledge is still difficult to time.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nakat, myself and virtually the entire Fox board has Yoshi as a losing matchup. As far as I know it's the only matchup that's undisputed among the Fox players. Other characters that have been mentioned as difficult were Sonic, Pikachu and Little Mac but opinions on these matchups vary a lot more. Yoshi seems to be the only character that virtually all Fox payer can agree on to be a losing one.

Yoshi is a character devoid of weaknesses. He's mobile. He's heavy. His recovery is reliable and no-nonsense. He's fantastic in neutral, can put the opponent into a disadvantaged position pretty easily and is pretty good at resetting back to neutral if he's put into a dsadvantaged position himself. His damage output is amazing both in neutral and in the advantaged position. His KO setups are safe, reliable and lead into powerful moves like usmash and air. He has plenty of tools that allow him to bypass defensive options without having to go for a hard read. He wrecks shields or just ignores them. Spotdodging is not an option against Yoshi. Even rolls are never safe.

Yoshi may or may not have losing matchups. I'm not saying he doesn't. But I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't. The pool of contenders looks pretty small to me.

Yoshi is not heavy. If he is heavier than average,
then it's by a very small margin.

He is most definitely lighter than Brawl Yoshi, at any rate.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Yoshi still lives to about %120-%135 he last a good bit.

 

[BSP]

Yoshi is around 13-16th in weight. I'd call that heavy.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you put in the fact some characters have the same weight, Yoshi's basically the 10th heaviest in the game not counting custom Heavy stance Shulk.

That's anything but barely above average. The weight he did lose though was transferred into Ike's muscles, so it was worth it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yoshi is not heavy. If he is heavier than average,
then it's by a very small margin.

He is most definitely lighter than Brawl Yoshi, at any rate.

According to Aerodrome's Weight Rankings, Yoshi is tied for 13-15th place in weight, at a value of 104. Compared to Mario that's not too extreme, but Mario himself is tied with Dr. Mario at 21-22nd place, so he's above the median too. The list also includes Min/Avg/Max weight Miis and Shulk under Shield and Smash Arts, both default and Hyper.

 

[NairWizard]

Yoshi still doesn't have a very good grab (even his command grab is meh, spotdodgeable on reaction and he usually uses it coming out of the air). I think that's important to keep in mind. He has solid shield pressure, but lack of a grab didn't stop being a big deal or anything. Shield is still a soft counter.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi still doesn't have a very good grab (even his command grab is meh,

I think we're done here.
His Neutral B is incredibly good. Hell if customs were allowed, Lick would probably be his move in his kit.

 

[meleebrawler]

According to Aerodrome's Weight Rankings, Yoshi is tied for 13-15th place in weight, at a value of 104. Compared to Mario that's not too extreme, but Mario himself is tied with Dr. Mario at 21-22nd place, so he's above the median too. The list also includes Min/Avg/Max weight Miis and Shulk under Shield and Smash Arts, both default and Hyper.

Eh, I just wanted to avoid hyperbole on that subject is all.
Though I guess Yoshi would be considered "heavy" among
most of the (current) top tier characters.

Regarding his grabs... the fact that he has a much
better dash attack and can pressure shields relatively
well makes them better than they would be otherwise.

If he had a faster grab, he'd likely be insane (kind of like
how most people saw Pac-Man's). Egg Lay is faster, but more difficult
to capitalize on, making it a bit more defensive.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

What do we think of sonics dash attack?

 

[Ffamran]

What do we think of sonics dash attack?

Not fast enough.

Since it "goes through" stuff, it's sort of good on shields, until your opponent just spots dodges or something and grabs you. I don't play as Sonic much, so I don't really know.

 

[NairWizard]

I think we're done here.
His Neutral B is incredibly good. Hell if customs were allowed, Lick would probably be his move in his kit.

Now this confuses me because you seem to be suggesting on one hand that I'm wrong about his command grab not being very good and on the other hand that he should replace it with Lick.

Lick is in fact very good, because of the momentum boost and the fact that it can kill at early percents (like 110). But it does nothing to shield. If you remove neutral-b for Lick you make Yoshi's grab game even worse but other aspects better (i.e., edgeguarding, landing, recovering, and KO'ing). All in all, that's probably a worthwhile trade, since it's one disadvantage vs. several advantages, but it doesn't address his fundamental issue vs. shield, and instead makes it worse.

Yoshi's default neutral b is good nominally because it's a better, faster option than his grab (which is awful). But it is still meh as a grab option overall; I'd rather have a standard grab in most matchups (except maybe against Little Mac). Yoshi with a standard grab would be an easy candidate for best character in the game, more so than even Pacman and Villager imo. It's not just dealing with shields, but being able to follow up off of grabs with strong aerials (and Yoshi's aerials are better than Pacman's and Villager's).

I cannot overestimate the importance of having a normal grab. Good shield pressure alone does not cover it (maybe it does for the special case of Robin, but I'm even having doubts about that one recently). Zero Suit Samus in Brawl had crazy shield pressure with her safe-on-block d-smash and general mobility, but it still didn't stop her from suffering against shields after people figured her out (following Salem's initial dominance at Apex, though item pieces were extra-crazy in the shield pressure department and continued to be strong).

In this game, grabbing was weakened since grab armor was removed, but it's still quite important. Against someone sitting idly in shield you don't need to grab, but against quick, agile characters that use fast shielding as an approach tool, not having a normal grab hurts, because you have to start throwing out your laggy grab in response to the shielding, and then once you've been conditioned to grab you're getting hit hard when the other guy stops shielding and calls your grab. Conditioning is a double-edged sword but both edges are pointed firmly at the character with the bad grab. I don't think any character with a bad grab will ever truly be top tier, but I am willing to let time convince me.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I dont have a problem with yoshis grab. It's def gets the job done and he has so many other tools to hurt people with. You think him having a bad grab makes him not top tier?

 

[NairWizard]

I dont have a problem with yoshis grab. It's def gets the job done and he has so many other tools to hurt people with. You think him having a bad grab makes him not top tier?

It's just that it has so much endlag that you can punish it with a strong attack just by spotdodging it/rolling/jumping over it. Most grabs are not that bad on whiff. You can miss a grab and then immediately roll out of the way. Pacman, Yoshi, Villager, Link, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, and Samus all have grabs that make this harder to do (ZSS' grabs people on the way back which is nice, but still not enough). This is how it goes down:

I am Pikachu against Yoshi. I know that Yoshi's grab is laggy, so I keep throwing out shields, since Yoshi probably won't use too much grab. I don't sit in shield because b-air/d-air/down-b will destroy my shield if I shield too long, but I briefly flash my shield whenever I'm in a dangerous situation or when I need to close a gap or get into a range that is uncomfortable for Yoshi to deal with.

Yoshi sees that I am shielding a lot and starts to use his grab. Even though the risk:reward ratio of his grab is bad, he can still use it because hey, I'm in shield a lot, right? So he's bound to hit it.

But now I see that Yoshi has started to grab me, so I know that he'll be grabbing me when he expects me to shield. I now stop shielding and instead spotdodge his grab and f-smash him, jump into and Thunder him, or roll -> grab him and throw him off stage if he's at KO percents.

Overall, I'm winning this little conditioning war. The ability to force Yoshi to use his laggy grab and then punish him for using it is a tremendous boon for the opposing character. The command grab alleviates this problem for Yoshi to some extent, but not completely.

 

[greatbernard]

Rosalina should get the following nerfs:
1) Luma cooldown is 16 seconds instead of 8 seconds
2) Rosalina takes half of the damage the Luma takes
3) Rosalina's air hitboxes are reduced by 20%

 

[NairWizard]

Rosalina should get the following nerfs:
1) Luma cooldown is 16 seconds instead of 8 seconds
2) Rosalina takes half of the damage the Luma takes
3) Rosalina's air hitboxes are reduced by 20%

Luma cooldown is already 13 seconds instead of 8.
And air hitboxes were basically reduced by 20% by the last patch.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Rosalina should get the following nerfs:
1) Luma cooldown is 16 seconds instead of 8 seconds
2) Rosalina takes half of the damage the Luma takes
3) Rosalina's air hitboxes are reduced by 20%

1 already happened, 2 is never going to happen given how easy it is to oneshot Luma, and 3 also happened already.

 

[ZHMT]

I've been hitting lots of characters during the ledge snap but didn't realise it. I play Jiggs and its ridiculously easy to do with her. I just assumed there was a time between the up Bs of characters and when the ledge snap actually begins I was hitting and used lingering hitboxes to do it.

Her fairs hitbox is active for 12 frames and nair is active for 24, you can just put the hitbox out early and they will "run" into it.

Also it leads to stagespikes a lot which is nice if they don't tech obv.

 

[Asdioh]

I think we're done here.
His Neutral B is incredibly good. Hell if customs were allowed, Lick would probably be his move in his kit.

What d'you mean, he would use Lick (which is just an attack, I think?) over his command grab?

I always thought Egg Lay was pretty mediocre, but that might be because I basically only use it when I play Kirby, who doesn't have completely unfair air mobility like Yoshi does :^)

This kinda demoralizes Lucario too. Either he has to recover high and eat an attack for it, or go for the ledge and risk an early death from someone with a spike/Villager with a bowling ball or tree.

He just can't afford to be off the stage at 60-100% now.

Also stuff like this is cool with me, I'll be glad for anything that speeds up getting kills in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For someone that asked who's up b has invincibility, Marth and Lucina Dolphin Slash is a true shoryuken in the air.

Frames 1-10 fully invincible.

Hitting them out of this will take a move with a huge hitbox and tons of active frames.

 

[TheMiSP]

Also saying G&W gets invincibility on his up b from start to halfway up. Even then, it's a shooting hitbox until he's done ascending.

 

[Shaya]

For someone that asked who's up b has invincibility, Marth and Lucina Dolphin Slash is a true shoryuken in the air.

Frames 1-10 fully invincible.

Hitting them out of this will take a move with a huge hitbox and tons of active frames.

That's dolphin jump, and it doesn't have a hitbox.
Dolphin Slash is 1-4 in the air IIRC.

Also marth's down tilt doesn't hit on the ledge easily.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

jeezus man i wish samus grab was more like zzs but regardless once i can use the destructive power of custom legal samus all shall fear my frame trapjng godlyness.