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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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TTTTTsd

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I feel that Mii Swordfighter is better than Cloud from my initial impressions. Cloud's kit is overall decent, but there are a few key things wrong with him:

-Extremely poor combo escape options. Fair is like frame 16 and starts above him. SideB isn't fast enough. This means you can trap him landing from tiny hits easily.
-Extremely poor upB. Not only does it not snap, he lingers in the air a bit and it doesn't have much distance. You can just throw out a spike hitbox near the ledge and it'll probably hit, with lenient timing.
-No easy-mode kill setups. You kind of need to make some commitments to kill. This puts pressure on really utilizing limit break for killing, but then you also need it for recovery... Really tough tradeoff.

Cloud seems pretty nice at walling single hits with some nice random quick moves like dtilt when the opponent over-extends. I just don't think that and limit break are enough vs. a few large weaknesses.

I think his jab is actually decent. There is little time between jab 1, 2, and 3, and you can mix up the timing. it's a decent anti-air too.
I'm assuming you mean Mii Sword with Optimal Moveset right? I'm just wondering cause the rulesets on Miis are horribly complex and I tend to not think of them too much. Just wanted to know for clarity's sake since absolutely 0 people talk about Mii Sword.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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I only have one question. Why are people not crossing up with Nair lol? Just out of curiosity.

I personally think as it stands he's the 2nd best Swordsman with a long sword in the game, topped only by Ike. Around the top of mid tier/very low end of high tier right now but we haven't really scraped the barrel with him yet. Still think he's pretty solid though.

Also DSmash is pretty solid for kills, it's very positional but it does its job well as a reversal/poke punish.
Crossing up Nair means it takes even longer to hit the target, or you have to be more obvious with it.

Also you kinda forget MK for sword users so Cloud would be 3rd best. Which is quite possible but I feel there is quite the noticeable gap.
 

FallenHero

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Why does it honestly even matter what series he's from in the Competitive Discussion? Like seriously he could be from Mario as long as he's good.
You talking to me? I know it doesn't really matter here, I was just stating how I felt about Chirron and Bayonetta's announcement as a side note.
 

G. Stache

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After testing:

Thank the lord no nerfs! At least...none that I found. I wouldn't mind a few buffs in the future, but Luigi is honestly fine the way he is now.

To drift away from only cloud: let's talk about characters that received a few handy tools. Bowser comes to mind as his u throw is now a great way to some good combos/ 50/50 mix ups. I finally found a solid reason to use Nair on this character

Charizard has a new angle on his dash attack. Maybe better for killing. Probably easier for setting up edge guards. I don't really know. I'll let the charizard experts delve into this one. Hopefully a bit more in depth of what this new angle can do.

Link feels a bit stronger now. Fair is the most noticeable. If you manage to link the two hits you can do up to 24ish %. While Link could probably use something other than power buffs, I'm sure nobody will complain.

Finally in regards to Cloud I suppose: he seems okay. Nothing too special, but certainly usable. Limit break is at least a lot of fun to use. I hope to see advancement with this character in the future. Only problem is recovery and lack of any consistent combo game at higher percents.

Also, just one more thing: How's Lucas nowadays? I didn't get him at first since I saw him as a overhyped piece of mediocrity, but he seems to be the biggest winner when taking to account the raw numbers. If someone who uses the boy could tell me, that'd be great.
 
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Luco

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Hey um...

Has anyone noticed that Bowser change yet? BKB on Uthrow changed from 90 to 25, and KBG changed from 80 to 155?

Wait let me check these numbers again.

I haven't had a chance to use Lucas again, but it seems according to our boards grab is still reasonably punishable, but it being a lot better does always help. I also think nair is actually a huge change, but I'm yet to see if it still works the same way as before.
 
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Trifroze

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Cloud doesn't seem all that great, he's missing a lot of reliability and reward that's common to good characters, and nothing about him looks overtuned to make up for that. Limit break specials are in no way comparable to KO punch for instance and he'll need it for recovery a lot of the time. He has a few great moves, but so does Mewtwo, Samus, Marth, Palutena, Falco and so on.
 
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-RedX-

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Bowser can hoo-haa now....
Not sure if Cloud's mobility is good enough to play around shields because I haven't seen anything in his kit for that.
 

TTTTTsd

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Cloud doesn't seem all that great, he's missing a lot of reliability and reward that's common to good characters, and nothing about him looks overtuned to make up for that. Limit break specials are in no way comparable to KO punch for instance and he'll need it for recovery a lot of the time. He has a few great moves, but so does Mewtwo, Samus, Marth, Palutena, Falco and so on.
He's nothing exceptional yeah. He doesn't have a lot of overtuned crazy stuff, he's pretty honest.

That being said, I don't think he's terrible either. He probably falls somewhere in the middle IMO, I'm 100% positive on that much at least, it's where I'd put him at worst.

Can't wait for more in-depth exploration though. I'm hitting the lab and playing as much friendlies as I can with him, that's for sure.
 

C0rvus

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Cloud also has a pretty tiny grab range, and gets very little out of it. No kill throws worth caring about. Down throw seems to kill first at like ~180 assuming its awkward angle is in your favor.

His back throw does 6%. That's I think the weakest throw I've ever seen.

I've found a couple combos, like falling up air to jump up air. Does more than 20%. Nice, but not exactly easy to land in neutral. Up air is really great though. Like, wow it does damage, lingers, and SH autocancels. Yummy.

Down throw seems so close to comboing into side b or forward tilt but I don't want to call it until I can test it on people. Pretty sure turnaround jab is guaranteed at 0. Woo.

I wish down tilt had followups. Would feel so sick to hit late down tilt to up air as a whiff punish.

Cloud seems mediocre.

Edit: Guarantee he loses hard to at least Mario and Sheik. Might be super free for them.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Cloud also has a pretty tiny grab range, and gets very little out of it. No kill throws worth caring about. Down throw seems to kill first at like ~180 assuming its awkward angle is in your favor.

His back throw does 6%. That's I think the weakest throw I've ever seen.

I've found a couple combos, like falling up air to jump up air. Does more than 20%. Nice, but not exactly easy to land in neutral. Up air is really great though. Like, wow it does damage, lingers, and SH autocancels. Yummy.

Down throw seems so close to comboing into side b or forward tilt but I don't want to call it until I can test it on people. Pretty sure turnaround jab is guaranteed at 0. Woo.

I wish down tilt had followups. Would feel so sick to hit late down tilt to up air as a whiff punish.

Cloud seems mediocre.

Edit: Guarantee he loses hard to at least Mario and Sheik. Might be super free for them.
Yeah, he doesn't seem exceptionally terrible, just not exceptionally good either.

Gonna play him anyways, why not? He feels competent enough, I wouldn't call MARIO a free loss nor would I call ANYTHING right now, we've seen like diddly squat of him vs. other characters. I just like how he moves and how he flows. Feel like if I can make it work my perception of him will increase. I'll be playing against someone soon so I'll be able to gauge it in a real match, but I feel like once he starts juggling someone, they're not getting down without a ton of damage. The Uair stuff is real, and his chase game is pretty on point.

For all it's worth though, I don't think he's too bad. This is probably one of my last posts in here, I'm taking a pretty decently long break. I might post a tidbit or two but I'll mostly be watching occasionally. It's been fun discussing Cloud, toodles!
 
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san.

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I'm assuming you mean Mii Sword with Optimal Moveset right? I'm just wondering cause the rulesets on Miis are horribly complex and I tend to not think of them too much. Just wanted to know for clarity's sake since absolutely 0 people talk about Mii Sword.
Yeah, Mii Swordfighter with optimal moveset and size. Throw combos, good tilts, etc.
 

Mario766

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Recovery really really reallllllly destroys the character.

Talking about Cloud here.
 
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C0rvus

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Yeah he's got great aerials for edgeguarding, but it hardly seems to be worth the risk.

I do think his ledge coverage looks very promising. Between Blade Beam hitting below ledge and moves like down smash and nair having such big hitboxes, I can see him giving recovering characters a run for their money.

I wish his recovery snapped to ledge. Like, as if it wasn't annoying enough to get back with this tiny hop, now I have to space surgically or get gimped for free? Come on.
 

NachoOfCheese

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Bowser's Uthrow is so real right now. Uthrow Nair does tons of damage and at high percents he gets kill followups. Wow! A third member of the DK crew!

No you don't even get it Bowser is actually terrifying now
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Does Blade Beam count as energy for Ness/Lucas/G&W?

Also I really want to see Pocket shenanigans with Limit Break Blade Beam, that sounds hilarious.
 
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Ffamran

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His back throw does 6%. That's I think the weakest throw I've ever seen.
Falco's D-throw only does 5% and if he's fighting Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, or Samus and on certain stages, using D-throw near the ledge can stage spike them for some reason and that ends up with a 2% throw. At higher percents, U-throw will only do 4% since the 4% laser - Why? Just make the throw part do 5% instead of making his lasers all weird - can miss. Fox's in the same boat, but I don't know if his D-throw can cause stage spikes like that. If it can, you're looking at a 1% throw which would be the weakest throw in the entire series. Otherwise, it does 7% total; each laser does 1.5% which considering the close range, Fox should be doing 13% - dayum - from 4 3% lasers and a 1% throw. And if either of his U-throw or B-throw lasers misses, then they're only 2% throws. Sheik's D-throw can also stage spike? and doing so would cause a 3% throw. I don't think this is possible, but if Mewtwo's Shadow Balls miss during F-throw, then he's only doing 3%. So, 6% is weak? Hell, look at Ike's 7% across the board which is just 1% off, but 7% only on all throws... Lucina and Marth have only their D-throw as the strongest at 5% as everything else is 4% while Roy's strongest throw is a 6% U-throw while everything else is 5%.
 

NachoOfCheese

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1) CLOUD'S NAIR IS SEXY AS HELL
2) So is Utilt
3) His recovery tho. Thank goodness for magnet hands otherwise he'd be really... little mac-esque.
4) He doesn't give me any "super competitive" vibes yet. He does have that trump card. Reminds me of Wario with Shulk's range in a way. We'll see, it's still day one so, y'know.

Is no one but Luco Luco going to talk about how Bowser is the new Donkey Kong?
Bowser's Uthrow is so real right now. Uthrow Nair does tons of damage and at high percents he gets kill followups. Wow! A third member of the DK crew!

No you don't even get it Bowser is actually terrifying now
:)
 
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Sonicninja115

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Cloud has a instant limit breaker cancel. (ILC) that is really good that he can do that. Makes LB safer.
 

C0rvus

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Like I said earlier, Bowser has a pretty easy time getting grabs. With much better grab reward, that changes a lot. Could make him the best heavy below DK.
 

Y2Kay

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Cloud has a instant limit breaker cancel. (ILC) that is really good that he can do that. Makes LB safer.
He's only been out for a couple hours and there's already a limit breack cancel tech?

Hopefully his hype will help him play catchup in terms of development w/ the rest of the cast.

Is it just like monado cancelling?

:059:
 
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TDK

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Also, for cloud, if you use the second hit of up-b on the ledge, you won't grab the ledge. You plummet to your doom. It's also a spike, but in order to get the spike hitbox on the up-b to spike, you need to go down with your opponent. His throws are complete garbage and his combo ability is extremely limited. Nair is good, though. So is up air.
 

TTTTTsd

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I consider Cloud's throws solely for positioning only. Their damage yield is above average and they put your opponent in places.

U-Throw is the best in this regard because you can chase with Uairs and those are very, very free.

They're far from the best thing he has but I feel like people are exaggerating JUST A LITTLE here. Were there elevated expectations or?
 
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Jams.

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What is this, exactly?
Information about Instant Limit Cancel. It's similar to a tech other characters with chargeable specials can perform such as Sheik (needles, the original cancel), ROB (gyro), Diddy Kong (popgun), and Pac Man (fruit). It basically allows Cloud to use any grounded normal except fsmash out of a Limit charge, which gives him faster options out of a run and more options while charging Limit Break.
 
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Does Blade Beam count as energy for Ness/Lucas/G&W?

Also I really want to see Pocket shenanigans with Limit Break Blade Beam, that sounds hilarious.
Just did a quick test with Game & Watch with default oil panic (yes, the bucket can absorb Blade Beam, so I assume the same can be said for PSI Boys and Mii Gunner and their healing moves).
Ground Blade Beam x 3: 60%
Aerial Blade beam x 3: 53%
Limit Break Ground Blade Beam x 3: 50%
Only reason LB Blade Beam does less is because the initial hit does not do as much damage compared to the other two. When the first hit connects, the other hits of LB Blade Beam don't count as projectile (or at least, ones that cannot be absorbed).
I'm guessing Pocketed LB Blade Beam will have all hits (I shudder to think the amount of damage it will induce).
 
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NachoOfCheese

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Like I said earlier, Bowser has a pretty easy time getting grabs. With much better grab reward, that changes a lot. Could make him the best heavy below DK.
We'll see. He might be higher, he might be lower. I don't know the character well enough but from what I've labbed with... it definately reminds me of when the Ding Dong was discovered. On top of that he has the clutch side b suicide if he takes the lead, which is scarier than anything DK has.
I don't know man. I honestly don't know.

Unrelated: Lucas' standing grab is insane now. The safety of being able to throw it out without eating a hard punish is huge. It really puts him on my radar, especially with his grab reward.

Cloud is giving me all sorts of Marth vibes right now. Disjoint, kill potential, not a lot of damage off grab... it's like marth trades his recovery for Limit break and you get Cloud.
 

Ffamran

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Is no one but Luco Luco going to talk about how Bowser is the new Donkey Kong?
Now we have a new question... What does that make Donkey Kong if Bowser is the new Donkey Kong? :p

Seriously though, what does that mean for DK?

1) CLOUD'S NAIR IS SEXY AS HELL
2) So is Utilt
3) His recovery tho. Thank goodness for magnet hands otherwise he'd be really... little mac-esque.
4) He doesn't give me any "super competitive" vibes yet. He does have that trump card. Reminds me of Wario with Shulk's range in a way. We'll see, it's still day one so, y'know.



:)
According to Lordwilliam1234, Nair's frame 5 and Utilt is frame 6.
It's not character changes, but I put together Cloud's frame data.

Will be updating this sheet with the new 1.13 numbers when it applies: any character with an asterisk next to their name hasn't been updated yet. Though myself and @Zapp Branniglenn didn't quite finish everything for 1.11, we did get most of it finished. You can compare numbers to the old sheet here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12a9yZTmAUrL17sL6BQC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit#gid=0
One thing Cloud has as an edge is that he has fast hitting moves with only Up Smash, Side Smash, and Fair being noticeably slow normals and Blade Beam and Finishing Touch being slow Specials, but then again, not a lot of Specials are super-fast, so... Most of Cloud's attacks are very close to his body which sort of makes his range seem shorter than it seems, but that also means you can't hug his body and have blind spots protect you. Some of the animations also shrink his hurtbox like how Side Smash involves him twisting back sort of like how Mario pulls back for Side Smash how Dair involves him lifting his legs up and with the size of the Buster Sword, it's one giant hitbox out compared to Link's thinner, but still disjointed Master Sword hitbox for his Dair. That's his edge and his distinguishing mark: Cloud's a fast-hitting swordsman with disjointed hitboxes close to his body unlike all the other swordsmen where most of them tend to hit out with Shulk being the extreme.

Some other good traits that I'm observing, but cannot confirm: Cloud's walk is pretty good. Maybe average at worse. His run is weird, I think it's slower than Mewtwo's, but still pretty decent. Blade Beam's a good zoning tool like Hadouken, but with a better hitbox. The fact it's green doesn't help since it reminds me of Wolf's since it covers below well, but compared to Wolf's bolt that hits crouching opponents, Cloud's hits people below the ledge.

Bad traits: we know, his recovery isn't good. He even has that stall thing both Little Mac and Shulk do if they don't sweet-spot the ledge. The difference is that Cloud doesn't have a button to make his Climhazzard have higher lift like Shulk's Monado Arts, instead Cloud pretty much has one chance to charge his Limit Break meter, and unlike Little Mac, he doesn't have a lingering hitbox out which even though Little Mac's isn't disjointed, would have been helpful. Also, his Climhazzard doesn't seem to hit above him well like Shulk's Air Slash which is an uppercut to Cloud's "forceful blade drag". This combined with his lack of other recovery moves and low jump hurts Cloud's off-stage survivability and game.
 
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LordWilliam1234

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Keep in mind though that with Cloud's n-air the 5 frame start-up is when he sticks the blade behind him, the blade is horizontal in front of him on frame 10. U-tilt is 6 frame start-up for when the sword is above/behind his head, comes in front on frame 8.
 
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ILOVESMASH

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Bowser is easily the biggest winner of this patch. The changes made to his U-Throw pretty much removes one of his biggest issues; his poor advantageous state. Now, not only can he do an insane amount of damage from a grab, but also has easy kill confirms on most of the cast at 90%. I think he's probably the best or second best heavy in the game now.
 

Zean

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Also if you read a dodge after the uthrow you get a free down-b for early kills
 

Nobie

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The changes to Mewtwo's up air are pretty danged significant, as far as I can tell. Basically the move went from a minor nuisance to something that can potentially reverse the momentum of a match.

First, even putting aside its kill power now (especially in high-altitude juggles), consider a situation where Mewtwo is recovering off stage and goes below the ledge. In the past, Mewtwo could up air through the platform to hit the opponent. It was a cute move, but it didn't do all that much, and sometimes you could also get hit out of it and fall to your death.

Now, though, not only are the hitboxes improved, but the increased knockback means that if the opponent gets hit by your tail they get sent rocketing through the air. It might not be enough to kill them, no, but it gives you ample time to get back on stage and now you're on stable ground, they're above you in a disadvantageous state, AND they have to be wary about continued up air juggles.

Second, because it IS a kill move now at higher percents, it's another option to threaten with while landing. In the past you could maybe get away with landing a fair or a dair on top of unsuspecting opponents, but that was only one of two offensive measures. However, up air is now an option to mix up that situation (as is bair and its new fancy power/hitboxes).

I don't know if Mewtwo's going to shoot up the tier lists or anything, but he's basically gotten a new significant tool on top of a bunch of smaller buffs (those landing lag buffs my goodness), and it means that his advantage, disadvantage, and neutral are all better in a noticeable way.
 

Big-Cat

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Is no one but Luco Luco going to talk about how Bowser is the new Donkey Kong?
The UThrow change is overwhelmingly massive for his punishment game. A big issue was that his attacks generally have high horizontal knockback so he'd easily lose momentum. This fixes that issue. Meanwhile, he has a lot of mix ups from it. Up to a certain percent, he has near guaranteed combos. After that, DI will kick in. A proper prediction can net you a drop kick if they don't jump. You can charge USmash if you predict they're going to airdodge your followup.

If they jump, you're already at the advantage. Chase them with UAir among other things.
 

TDK

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Ohey, Greninja got buffed! From what I've seen, the changes aren't too significant, but extra killpower is nice.

Bowser, on the other hand, got massive benefits.
 

Yikarur

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Clouds upair is one of the best upairs in the game. Short hop fast fall upair autocancels and it has a huge disjoint. It's by far his best move.
 
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