Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[bc1910]

Well I'm glad they finally addressed Greninja's Usmash. That thing was way too weak. Biggest problem with the character by far. /s

In all seriousness if he's not getting a startup buff to Fair or grab, Greninja needs FAF buffs on stuff like shuriken, Usmash, Dthrow and Dtilt to actually get better. Since FAFs haven't been datamined yet, there's still hope. I'm not expecting any more buffs though. Which is whatever, Greninja's in a good spot as it is.

Lucas grab buffs are nothing short of huge. I find it hilarious that on this very page, I said he'd be high tier with a better grab. We'll see if I'm right (spoiler: I probably am).

Kirby's Uthrow buff is really nice. Will have to see it in action to see how much earlier it actually kills. A KBG buff of 11 is legitimately huge. The other QoL changes to Kirby and the other low tiers, mostly the heavies, look pretty meh. DP buff is fine but won't change his tier position, if anything making his kill power a bit more comparable to Pit's will make them even more similar.

I'm ecstatic about the Aura Sphere nerf, because **** Lucario.

So far I don't see anyone except Lucas making a big rise but we are viewing a jigsaw through a keyhole without information on FAF changes. Still, fun to speculate at this stage.

 

[Y2Kay]

So does aura sphere no longer lock up shields? Or did they also nerf it in other ways?

 

[Nobie]

I think Mewtwo's dair buffs are going to be huge. You know who else has a spike with 4 active frames? I'm pretty sure the answer is nobody, though I might be mistaken.

 

[Kofu]

I think Mewtwo's dair buffs are going to be huge. You know who else has a spike with 4 active frames? I'm pretty sure the answer is nobody, though I might be mistaken.

Though the strong hit is probably only for one frame.

 

[LancerStaff]

Electroshock buffs look good. Now Ryu's even deader if he has to use Tatsu offstage, heh.

It's going to kill like what, 10% faster? That's pretty huge. Oh, it'll be better against Luma as well because the angle is lower.

Still not enough to make him even with Pit but there's a few more matchups worth considering using him in... Anybody with a slow moving recovery, really.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not everything's confirmed yet? So Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, and King Dedede still have a chance?

Its pretty easy to see what files have changes if you have the right program.

So outside of FAF frames and ending lag (which we can't look up through datamining), they have no changes most likely.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think Mewtwo's dair buffs are going to be huge. You know who else has a spike with 4 active frames? I'm pretty sure the answer is nobody, though I might be mistaken.

not to mention d-throw to fair might work now with the new angle buff!

Spoiler: Also.....

10 minutes till the final destination boyz!!!

Put your seat belts on, the hype train is hitting maximum velocity!!!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Its pretty easy to see what files have changes if you have the right program.

So outside of FAF frames and ending lag (which we can't look up through datamining), they have no changes most likely.

And landing lag, right?

 

[Y2Kay]

I'M SO CONFUSED!

Who is this guy?

 

[Smog Frog]

looking at the uthrow changes(dramatically lower bkb, higher kgb, decreased endlag?) might mean its a combo throw now. also decreased damage might be to compensate for the increased comboability?

also wtf @ these buffs. i guess its to compensate for his shorter tether? also noticed nair damage buff. so if the looping hits went from 1%->2%, that would mean its damage got buffed from 8%->12%.

dthrow didnt combo before because it's endlag was too long. i doubt the angle change is significant. but those aerial changes! fair f6, bigger bair(if the position adjustment moved it a little lower, that means he can sh bair and hit standing opponents), uair damage/kb changes(it might kill now?), and dair. seems good.

just my initial impressions and speculations.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Mewtwo's dair buffs are going to be huge. You know who else has a spike with 4 active frames? I'm pretty sure the answer is nobody, though I might be mistaken.

Uh... Falco? Frame 16-19 is his current spike hit frames. Used to be 16-18 before 1.0.8 if I remember correctly. Even then, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's Dair spikes on frames 16-18 and that's just 1 frame off of Falco's Dair and Mewtwo's 1.1.3 Dair.

 

[Y2Kay]

SAKURAI HAS THOROUGHLY LOST HIS MIND.

WHAT THE HECK EUROPE.

THAT IS ALL.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Bayonetta is top tier

 

[Zelder]

Well I can't say I saw that one coming.



Edit: Also I hope Smash 5 is literally all anime swordsmen.

 

[G. Stache]

I have a feeling I missed something huge since the caps lock has been dropped. Can someone fill me in, I kind of had practice and couldn't see the Nintendo direct thing. Also, do we know when the patch is setting in?

 

[Smog Frog]

bottom line:
more ****ing anime fe swords(wo)men, bayo, and NO WOLF

also this is the last dlc update.

 

[Luco]

Oh, this is delicious. Obviously grab is insane (is that frame data better than ZSS now? o.O ) but I'm just as excited for Nair doing like 12% each time (those early Nair strings, assuming they still work are gonna be deadly)!

 

[Y2Kay]

I have a feeling I missed something huge since the caps lock has been dropped. Can someone fill me in, I kind of had practice and couldn't see the Nintendo direct thing. Also, do we know when the patch is setting in?

We got some Fire emblem character no one gives a hoot about
and BAYONNETTA!
no wolf though.........

 

[wpwood]

Let's watch as we begin to discuss the viability of character's that are not even out yet and I'll watch as my post considering viability of a character as a secondary is over shadowed. I understand the trailers looked pretty hype but they're not even out yet. I probably don't need to say this, but eh.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So we're gonna chitty on on new characters and not use it for CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION?!?

Here's the deal. Corrin and Bayonetta are gonna have some silly edgeguarding. Side Smash and side b for Corrin, Down Smash for Bayonetta. 2 frames is gonna be easy to manipulate with this.

Corrin's side smash is stronger at the tip, goes father than Shulk's AND looks to be faster. Imagine if that's safe on shield thanks to those new shield mechanics. Imagine if his side-b is as well. He's gonna outspace enough characters to probably knock off a bunch as semi viable if his frame data isn't garbage.

I also can't wait till someone figures out super low percentage kill combos siilar to ZSS but with Bayonetta and all her moves into moves stuff. Remember Dante in Playstation Allstars? Welcome him, I mean, Bayonetta's gun mechanics to Smash 4!

And Cloud looks like an above average sword fighter :')

It feels like all of these guys though are overtuned to Ryu levels from the looks of things, which is a scary thought. Obviously we can't know till they're all out and the meta settles, but I expect a nice chunk of characters to become even worse than before after their inclusion.

 

[Zelder]

Literally pinning people to the ground as Corrin is going to be insanely fun in team matches.


Edit: please don't assume that characters are overpowered from hype videos designed to show off an unfinished character's strengths/make you buy the dlc

 

[Ulevo]

It feels like all of these guys though are overtuned to Ryu levels from the looks of things, which is a scary thought.

Try significantly overtuned. Ryu doesn't even come close.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Try significantly overtuned. Ryu doesn't even come close.

Ryu is significantly overtuned.

 

[LiteralGrill]

People are going to end up missing Sheik (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ

 

[David Viran]

I think Mewtwo's dair buffs are going to be huge. You know who else has a spike with 4 active frames? I'm pretty sure the answer is nobody, though I might be mistaken.

Uh zss #toptierprivilage. Her flip kick is active for 6 frames and can spike all the way through.

 

[bc1910]

I think Cloud looks pretty tame, Bayo looks stark-raving bonkers, and Corrin could go either way.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think I'm gonna see bayonetta in my nightmares....

To think I found sheik intimidating to fight.......

And now this......

DEAR GOD.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Didn't sakurai state that Bayonetta will have very high startup on most of her moves? I think that will really harm her viability.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Remember when we though Palutena was bonkers because of her up-smash? Yeah.

For Bayonetta's combos to work consistantly for casual players, I can't see any of those moves having much KB growth on them.

EDIT: and didn't he say that Bayonetta's counter worked even after she was hit?

 

[Smog Frog]

after testing:

can hit standing opponents with tipper shac bair. dthrow still ****. tail base uair does 11% and kills from the ground at 140%~.
maybe placebo: fair feels like it got a landing lag reduction.

 

[FullMoon]

Remember when we though Palutena was bonkers because of her up-smash? Yeah.

For Bayonetta's combos to work consistantly for casual players, I can't see any of those moves having much KB growth on them.

EDIT: and didn't he say that Bayonetta's counter worked even after she was hit?

If you miss the timing of the time-slow you take reduced damage and that's it, nothing more.

 

[Man Li Gi]

They had one job and it was to appease to fans. Considering they put someone as immensely popular as Bayonetta in the game, yah not too shabby. The salt that you see now would have been actually higher if they just put Wolf (yes I want him in), and Corrin.
Anyway, at work ATM and can't do any extensive testing till I get home. It will be awesome to see some of the changes in the patch.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Mewtwo's D-throw went from terrible to okayish. In can setup into nice 50 / 50 situations thanks to its new angle, making it not completely useless. You still can't combo off of it due to its insane endlag.

Uair is great now since it can kill and has more range. This will be a nice buff to mewtwo's juggle game. Fair is much better since it has more range. F-Smash also is a lot better since its sweetspot is easier to land.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Apparently, Cloud's Up B and recovery in general is horrible outside of Limit Up B. Can't walk-off Dair and make it back without Limit. Up B doesn't auto snap, apparently won't snap at all if you use the downwards attack portion?

 

[Rizen]

I'm sure this has been said many times but Bayonetta looks OP as hell. She's like ZSS+Ryu with a counter. I hope she has slow frame data or she'll be the ideal 1vs1 character.

If the angels don't attack her stage might be fit for competitive play.

Also RIP Wolf/Snake/Pichu.

 

[C0rvus]

First impressions of Cloud are shaky:
The Good:
Nair short hop auto cancels and is generally very quick for a move its size.
Up air is super meaty.
Fair's meteor is the best feeling move to land in the game.
Up tilt does up tilt things, is quick, might be awesome when PP'ed
Ground mobility seems very good, has a long pivot.
Finishing Touch is silly.
blah blah blah range.

The Bad:
Air mobility seems bad.
Recovery is garbage without limit. This is a huge limitation.
Throws are odd. Down throw might link into stuff but seems shaky.
Limit Charge doesn't stall of anything, Cloud seems to lack any sort of landing mixup.
Blade Beam seems mediocre to bad.
Speaks Japanese for whatever reason.
Palette swaps are trash tier. (No green original Cloud? bleh)

I'm not calling it yet, but meh. I'll give him a spin for awhile and see what I can do.

I think Bowser is a big winner this patch. New up throw seems to link into things more consistently, though I fear 3 frame nairs will beat it out. With the ease Bowser has of landing grabs thanks to the jab to grab mixup, getting bigger damage is pretty huge for him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yo, Cloud feels AMAZING. Really solid movement, low lag aerials, two of whic hautocancel (NAIR of all things, and Uair) and his Bair has like NEGLIGIBLE lag.

This character is good. No doubt in my mind, he's good. Smashes are powerful,. DSmash is powerful and quick, Dtilt OoS is amazing, Dtilt sets up combos.....

Uair Uair Uair.

Also if you're worried about Limit, he builds it REALLY fast when taking damage. Not so much when dealing, but it accumulates SUPER FAST.

Feels really good to me. Yes his recovery isn't that great but like, all of the good attributes are actually REALLY good.

Additionally Limit makes his mobility AMAZING, this character feels so awesome...

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm sure this has been said many times but Bayonetta looks OP as hell. She's like ZSS+Ryu with a counter. I hope she has slow frame data or she'll be the ideal 1vs1 character.

it seems Bayonetta trades the safety for a much deeper and complex combo game and power

Sheik on steroids, basically.

I'm gonna be disappointed if cloud's not at least high tier material

 

[zeldasmash]

Cloud is great. But dear god is his recovery bad without Limit Break.

 

[LancerStaff]

Then Cloud gets bopped super hard and dies to a low percent gimp. Cloud vs. Sheik will definitely be a nightmare.

Also Dark Pit's now side B the character. Went from killing at 140% on the side to 100% on 3DS.