Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[C0rvus]

The only character I can think of that makes use of all of his throws would be . Imagine if he had a grab like Ness. Yikes.

 

[TriTails]

What would you change with each of those 5 useless moves?

- D-tilt, I would revert it back into its pre-patch form, even with the increased end lag. Or at least buff its range. It's PATHETIC. D-smash pretty much invalidates this move's existence.
- F-tilt, I would make it to function as a proper poking tool with less end lag, or a killing tool with slower startup to compensate.
- Missile, just... everything. This move is undertuned in quite a lot of ways. Make it have lesser end lag, make it go faster, make it snap to the ledge. Remove the 'stuck in the wall' mechanic too, but it's rather insignificant and I can live with that. Aside from that, this move needs a lot of fixing, especially the former. It puts you in too much risk for a distance that isn't exactly respectable for 70 frames of charge.
- DA, perhaps increase the reward in somekind. As of now it's a 'REALLY high risk, VERY low reward' kind of move. I shouldn't be sticking my neck out just for 8% move that's extremely punsihable on shield (Most DAs are unsafe on shields, I know. THIS one is faaaaaar more punishable) and a knockback that don't kill nor follow up with anything, especially since we're talking about a character with mediocre dash.
- F-throw in general is just overshadowed by his throws. F-throwing at lower percents doesn't need to exist when we have D-throw. F-throwing on the ledge don't kill until like 150%. Its only real purpose is to throw people offstage, but I suppose that's fine if his other bad moves were to be addressed.

Those are my ideas tho. Perhaps there are better ideas out there, I put my trust in tommorow's patch and the devs for that. I just hope they address those moves in consideration of his mobility, because an F-tilt or D-tilt like that in a character like Luigi is kinda nonsense.

 

[Apeirohaon]

Diddy has situational use for all his throws (down/up for combos, forward for positioning, back for killing/positioning). So does Mario (same purposes as diddy's)
I'd imagine Pikachu does as well

Actually, now that I think about it, most characters have some use for all their throws. All the ones I can think of that don't either have an up throw that's outclassed by down throw (sheik, zss) in basically every case or have weird throws in general

 

[Sonicninja115]

Even Mewtwo has a use for all throws.

Fthrow- damage and positioning

Dthrow- Tech/reaction chase

Bthrow- positioning and early ledge kill (115%ish)

Uthrow-Kill (130%)

 

[Dre89]

Any character that uses both dthrow and uthrow for combos/killing has use for all of their throws

 

[TriTails]

Take note I didn't say Luigi's 'useless' moves. I said 'bad' moves. Luigi has uses for his F-throw, but considering on how difficult sometimes for him to get in, F-throw yields fairly low reward for the difficulty. He ain't Falcon or Greninja.

But maybe I'm just too spoiled with his pre-patch rewards. Since D-throw nerfs, this move has been getting slight spotlight.

I take back my word then.

Spoiler

Still... 4 bad moves...

 

[ARGHETH]

Robin uses Dthrow, Bthrow, and Fthrow(Not very good at positioning, but it's something), but Uthrow is completely useless. Sends opponents too far to combo, and is bad at killing. Bthrow from across the stage kills earlier.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's F-Throw isn't that good, the only thing it's good for really is getting people offstage to set up edgeguards.

Up-Throw and D-Throw are good for killing/combos and B-Throw is good for damage. F-Throw is the more meh one though still useful in what it does.

 

[Pazx]

There are very few if any characters in the entirety of Smash as a franchise that do not benefit from having their opponent either above them or offstage. Positional throws are good.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's throws are all pretty good. Not as good as Lucas's obviously but his grabs are pretty solid all around.

Dthrow's probably the one everybody knows. Not incredibly strong but true combos for days and if you DI it you're getting Fair'd instead. At low enough percents Dthrow > Usmash is a true combo on any (or almost any) character. You can probably imagine how long it lasts on fast fallers. Would also be a decent kill confirm with a few frames off or something I swear.

Fthrow combos into stuff at low percents and does 12% or so, (was a chain grab tool in Brawl so it's no surprise) but it's namely a kill throw. Doesn't kill especially fast, but it's pretty unique for a kill throw in that it's fast in frame data (all of Pit's throws are actually) and it's forward-facing. As far as I know there's not a lot of speedy kill throws...

Uthrow does a bunch of damage and knockback, though it's growth is meh. It's best past when Dthrow doesn't combo anymore or as a late positional or just positional kill move in general.

Only one that wouldn't look nice on most characters is Bthrow, not that it's useless or anything. Highish base knockback and a low angle means it's good for getting gimps and otherwise dealing with for Glory Little Macs. Damage is good, and there's some tech chase potential there too. Won't kill sub 200%, but yaknow, it doesn't really need to. I get plenty of use out of it myself.

 

[Kofu]

TriTails just remember that Luigi's dash attack got buffed in the transition from Brawl. It used to be punishable on-hit! And while it's not a great dash attack, its slow movement and multi-hitting properties make it an okay landing trap (though Cyclone probably does that better, huh?).

 

[Djmarcus44]

I was encouraged, blame him if you've got a problem

Each tier = relatively same power level, but characters are ordered within tiers.

Not included are unviable fighters. Zelda, D3, Jiggly, 1111 Brawler and 1111 Gunner deserve a separate bottom 5 tier.

Don't get flustered over the tier names. S thru B are actually A+, A, A-. C thru D are actually B tiers, E thru F are C.

Since every character in the game has won a tournament, and every character has placed well in a major tournament (this includes miis when they are allowed to use their best movesets), I don't think that any character in Smash 4 is completely unviable.

Spoiler: Mii Gunner's viability analysis

Mii Gunner has one of the best neutral games in all of Smash 4 with 1111 and with 3312, Gunner's best moveset. This is due to the excellent projectiles Mii Gunner has, and the movement options that Gunner gets when using them. Mii Gunner also has other moves that are good in the neutral (nair, bair, and pp ftilt to retreat). Mii Gunner also has decent mobility due to a good foxtrot, (it has a value of 1.6, the average run speed of a character), good airspeed (tied for 25th), good aerial acceleration, (tied for 15th) and a gundash that is as fast as a falcon kick without any landing lag. Mii Gunner also has a good juggling and edgeguarding game (his/her combo game is a work in progress, but there are some good true combos and follow ups in the Mii Gunner true combo and follow up thread). Killing with Gunner isn't very easy, but Gunner has a good variety of kill setups (including a kill confirm with 3312 gunner). In addition, mii gunner has good frame data on some killing options (frame 5 up tilt that kills around 135 depending on weight and a frame 9 down smash with good killing power for a smash attack). Mii Gunner also has a solid disadvantage state (although our only combo breaker is our frame 3 reflector, and it's weak hitbox gives it situational use for that purpose) especially with 3312. Bomb drop allows Gunner to land safely in most matchups, and gundashing, flame pillar, stalling with reflector (with 1111 gunner), and lunar launch are also good mix ups to land. Although Mii Gunner is somewhat easy to combo and edgeguard in comparison to the rest of the cast, Mii Gunner is good at surviving since Gunner has a good weight along with the option to gundash to the stage to mix up recovery. Mii Gunner's disadvantage state is also helped by being difficult to jab lock. Although Mii Gunner doesn't have many players to develop his/her metagame or to represent him/her in tournaments, Mii Gunner is definitely not a bad competitive pick relative to the rest of the cast.

Mii Gunner's throws are also all useful. Mii Gunner can get follow ups (and tech chases from Fthrow and Bthrow) every throw at low to mid percents. At higher percents Uthrow to up air and Dthrow to up air can kill.

 

[TriTails]

TriTails just remember that Luigi's dash attack got buffed in the transition from Brawl. It used to be punishable on-hit! And while it's not a great dash attack, its slow movement and multi-hitting properties make it an okay landing trap (though Cyclone probably does that better, huh?).

Yes, Cyclone is a much better option as it moves faster and uses rehit rate instead of 'hits at frame x and then hits again at frame y' stuffs. Luigi's horrible traction and mediocre run speed also makes it obvious where he is going to dash attack, and horrible traction means he takes quite a bit of time to turn around (Whereas Cyclone turns faster (Albeit, not very good with its duration)). Cyclone can be used while running to instantly turn around and possibly surprising people. Since a lot of top and high tiers have good airspeed, being mobile on the ground is a must to trap their landings.

Also, Luigi can't move anywhere but forward with DA. You can turn around and rise to minimize punishes with Cyclone if you miss. The only thing I can see DA doing better is because it tends to send people off-stage, but even then, a dashgrab + F-throw/B-throw seems like a better option. Take note that DA also has bad range to boot, and doesn't hit behind him. This move is baaaaaaaad.

...And it's still somehow better than Green Missile :/.

 

[Smog Frog]

can someone explain to me why people think is a mediocre character? he seems decent to me.

 

[meleebrawler]

can someone explain to me why people think is a mediocre character? he seems decent to me.

Few results, negative connotations from being compared to Ness, poor grab in a game where grabs are prominent...

I guess he also has a bit of the Pit syndrome where he is good at quite a few things but has no true specialty.

He definitely requires you to approach him differently to most other characters. I can barely think of a character that uses his/her zair more than he does (Samus is the closest).

 

[Y2Kay]

The Day of fate is upon us, brothers and sisters!

Few results, negative connotations from being compared to Ness, poor grab in a game where grabs are prominent...

I guess he also has a bit of the Pit syndrome where he is good at quite a few things but has no true specailty

If that's really all wrong w/ him, I'm bothered that people could think he's bottom 15 already

 

[bc1910]

Lucas probably has the best Zair, in terms of how generous the hitbox is. ZSS' is really good too but requires more precision.

I think if Lucas had a normal grab he'd be high tier, possibly top 15. His throw game rivalled only by the very best in terms of how effective it is at all percents (combos at low, RELIABLE killing at high, most characters only have one or the other, even including various top tiers like Mario).

Sadly he has one of the very worst grabs in the game and a bunch of other issues, mostly with his short hop game and kill potential. Not a single one of his kill moves are easy to land, thanks to how bad the grab is.

I do think Lucas is decent, but disappointing overall.

 

[Jamurai]

On the other hand, if he had a normal grab, he wouldn't have The Zair; his best conditioning tool would be gone, his keepout game would be significantly nerfed, and his recovery would be much less versatile and way more punishable.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Since every character in the game has won a tournament, and every character has placed well in a major tournament (this includes miis when they are allowed to use their best movesets), I don't think that any character in Smash 4 is completely unviable.

What do you consider a "major"? Let's face it, a majority of characatres in this game have never seen the top of a national tournament, let alone a full international event. Imagine you're going to Genesis 3 (with Miis magically legal). Even then, there's a huge chance a GIANT chunk of characters wont even hit the top 32, let alone sixteen, or most important top 8 where any money could be made.

It sucks, but the illusion that every character can be used equally on a grand scale isn't real. More characters in this game can sit in that viable and potentially viable area, but most are simple non-viable at a tournament level and we gotta accept that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Few results, negative connotations from being compared to Ness, poor grab in a game where grabs are prominent...

I guess he also has a bit of the Pit syndrome where he is good at quite a few things but has no true specialty.

He definitely requires you to approach him differently to most other characters. I can barely think of a character that uses his/her zair more than he does (Samus is the closest).

It's unfortunate that I still can't quite get the hang of spacing zairs, although I'm practicing and getting better. Slowly.

Also I get a bit annoyed whenever I see a reference to people comparing him and Ness. They have very little in common outside of meaningless flavor (e.g. "PSI kid"), especially when focusing on their normals. I used Lucas in Brawl, and it was roughly even odds whether or not my opponent would say something that betrayed their lack of understanding. I had hoped the misconceptions would have fixed themselves by now, but I guess not.

</rant>

 

[Konneh]

Since every character in the game has won a tournament

Just wanted to chime in here ASAP and demand a credible source for this.
This hangs extremely loosely on the definition of "tournament"!
If I were participating in a family smash tournament consisting of me, my mother and my cat, I would probably be able to win regardless of my character's viability.
Yeah, sure, a Kirby won my 28 man local - that doesn't shine a new light upon the metagame in the slightest.

Hypothesis:
If I invested 2 hours into learning Sheik and got close to beating a guy who mains Zelda since the game was released and put thousands of hours into learning her and all her intricacies, then looking at the results in a vacuum will tell me that Zelda is better than Sheik, but thinking about it and analyzing the results as well as the players and the metagame will tell me that Sheik is what she is.

 

[Jamurai]

"Lacklustre" is my preferred word to describe Lucas. I know others as well as myself who saw his supposed potential, picked him up for a while and ended up dropping him because we were disappointed. He's fun but he has to work pretty hard for the safety, damage and kill power which a lot of characters find easy to obtain. Maybe someone really good picks him up and shows the world what he can do but I think it unlikely because even with optimal play he's not that amazing, and he's hard to use well so he is lacking in top level meta development and may well be for some time. He doesn't seem like a useful secondary either, he doesn't seem to do particuarly well vs any problematic top tiers... I heard he may have a good matchup against Ryu, but I'd only pull him out if I was very practised and confident in my keep-out game, as always with that character a couple of slip-ups or mis-spaces and you're toast.

 

[Sonicninja115]

What do you consider a "major"? Let's face it, a majority of characatres in this game have never seen the top of a national tournament, let alone a full international event. Imagine you're going to Genesis 3 (with Miis magically legal). Even then, there's a huge chance a GIANT chunk of characters wont even hit the top 32, let alone sixteen, or most important top 8 where any money could be made.

It sucks, but the illusion that every character can be used equally on a grand scale isn't real. More characters in this game can sit in that viable and potentially viable area, but most are simple non-viable at a tournament level and we gotta accept that.

There is also the fact that we have 54 characters and a top 32. Top thirsty two has none of the recognition that even top 16 sometimes has.

Edit: players in a tournament.

 

[Dre89]

What do you consider a "major"? Let's face it, a majority of characatres in this game have never seen the top of a national tournament, let alone a full international event. Imagine you're going to Genesis 3 (with Miis magically legal). Even then, there's a huge chance a GIANT chunk of characters wont even hit the top 32, let alone sixteen, or most important top 8 where any money could be made.

It sucks, but the illusion that every character can be used equally on a grand scale isn't real. More characters in this game can sit in that viable and potentially viable area, but most are simple non-viable at a tournament level and we gotta accept that.

If we're going to restrict the definition of viable to just the characters who could win a national without secondaries, then the term has lost all pragmatic use.

If you can win locals and regionals with a character that's technically not 'viable, then who cares if someone is viable or not. It has no significance when you're winning money with supposedly non-viable characters anyway.

Also Zero could probably place top 8 with every character in the game if he mained them, possibly barring a few exceptions. Player skill is still a way bigger deal than the characters, as casual as that sounds.

 

[wpwood]

GIANT chunk of characters wont even hit the top 32, let alone sixteen, or most important top 8 where any money could be made.

There are I think 54 characters so even if all top 32 were different characters, which probably won't happen, there are 22 characters that wouldn't be represented. However that is assuming players only play 1 character though, and we've seen a Samus in top 16 or 8 with Esam at CEO. So saying a huge chunk of characters won't hit top 32 is obvious when there are more characters than spots, but with secondaries we can see even more characters in top 32. MVD brought out Duck Hunt against Scatt, a Mega Man. Who honestly though they would see a Duck Hunt vs Mega Man match at a national when this game first came out? If a Zelda made top 16 at a national people would probably change their opinions of the character, even if Zelda was only a secondary and the player mained someone else.

Secondaries are meant to shine in the struggle match ups a main has; that's how the viability of a secondary is evaluated. At least that's how I evaluate secondaries. Is Doc really a viable character or is he just a viable secondary for the Pika MU? You can replace Doc and Pika with any characters in the game and it'll shed some new light on a character. Esam is most likely to make it to top 8 at most majors he attends, and if he has to fight Nairo, Nairo will probably pull out Doc again against his Pika. That puts Doc in top 8 at a major and that most likely wouldn't have happened with a solo Doc main. Instead of only discussing if a character is solo viable, semi-viable, or viable with secondaries we should consider how a character is viable AS a secondary and to what character they are viable with. That means considering the bad MUs of the main and how well does the secondary cover those MUs. Counter pick characters will become a thing in the future and we should start considering that now and help advance the meta. Assuming not everyone picks up Sheik that is. Although I happen to like the Peach vs Sheik MU and think it's one of Sheik's harder ones so that's my Sheik "counter."

 

[LiteralGrill]

If we're going to restrict the definition of viable to just the characters who could win a national without secondaries, then the term has lost all pragmatic use.

If you can win locals and regionals with a character that's technically not 'viable, then who cares if someone is viable or not. It has no significance when you're winning money with supposedly non-viable characters anyway.

Also Zero could probably place top 8 with every character in the game if he mained them, possibly barring a few exceptions. Player skill is still a way bigger deal than the characters, as casual as that sounds.

I thought the point of this thread was to talk about play at the highest level. If we're talking any random local sure, you can use whoever you want. If you want to win tournaments on the highest scale with all of that top level talent some characters don't cut it. Also, ya'll are getting very dangerously into red topic territory.

So to try and be a bit more green show me the results with characters you think make them notable to use. Because with limited amount of time with a character. you're gonna invest in the best if you want to win, period.

 

[wpwood]

If I invested 2 hours into learning Sheik and got close to beating a guy who mains Zelda since the game was released and put thousands of hours into learning her and all her intricacies, then looking at the results in a vacuum will tell me that Zelda is better than Sheik, but thinking about it and analyzing the results as well as the players and the metagame will tell me that Sheik is what she is.

I think that's where the learning curve comes in with characters. People like it easy and Sheik is "easy" as of now, she does require some technical skill. Maybe Zelda is a bad example to the learning curve or I just don't know Zelda enough, but I can say Shulk has a pretty high learning curve. With 1 move Shulk can change his play and with MALLC he can be more aggro and using the right art can make his aggression even better. Through time and with hard core character loyalist characters will get better. How much better we can't say. If everyone goes to a top tier, what is there for the development of other characters. MALLC is very useful in that it either reduces or cancels landing lag and it has invincibility frames. Many think Shulk to be low tier, but I haven't seen a single Shulk show off the use of MALLC in tournament. It is a hard tech to use, meaning Shulk is a hard character to master. Maybe we'll see a Shulk show off his true power and everyone will think differently of the character.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So did you know that we have some not fully released patch notes?

You can find them here.

Look at how MASSIVELY some characters were changed. Many this patch is gonna be fresh....

 

[Thinkaman]

While continued modest buffs to Bowser, Charizard, Ganondorf, Greninja, Kirby, Link, Marth/Lucina, Robin, and Shulk are nice, I doubt any of those character will move much. It's a good overall thing for game balance, but won't change any of their narratives.

What we know that matters, so far:

• Dark Pit's serious side-b buff is a reason for him to exist, so that's fun.
• Mewtwo is probably not going to turn any matchups around, but these aerial changes probably matter more than most
• Lucas is, of course, the big winner. I did so many double takes looking at the files, you have no idea.

 

[Djmarcus44]

What do you consider a "major"? Let's face it, a majority of characatres in this game have never seen the top of a national tournament, let alone a full international event. Imagine you're going to Genesis 3 (with Miis magically legal). Even then, there's a huge chance a GIANT chunk of characters wont even hit the top 32, let alone sixteen, or most important top 8 where any money could be made.

It sucks, but the illusion that every character can be used equally on a grand scale isn't real. More characters in this game can sit in that viable and potentially viable area, but most are simple non-viable at a tournament level and we gotta accept that.

K Konneh , On the character rankings for this website, every character has at least 3 tournament wins. Although the tournament wins for some characters are much more important than others depending on tournament size, a tournament result on this site is legitimate enough to be counted.

LiteralGrill , I consider majors to be very large tournaments (with top players of course) like EVO (where mii brawler and gunner were represented at a high level), Genesis, Apex, MLG, CEO, SmashCon, and Big House.

I never said that every character can be used equally at a top level. I realize that there is a large gap in results between top tiers and low tiers, but the results show that every character has at least a little bit of viability at the top level.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait Mewtwo got buffed?

Dark pit finally got more differentiated as s character?

I could cri right now, never thought this day would come!

 

[wedl!!]

Kind of ironic that the thread was on the subject of Lucas being mediocre earlier and how he would be great with a better grab.

And he gets like 15 frames off of his standing and dash grab.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Mewtwo buffs are pretty cool. They make one of his aerials usable and additionally make one of the good ones even better. Doesn't do much to help the character in the grand scheme but nominal improvements are improvements!

Lucas is crazy right now if all of this lines up. That's insanity. Granted his tether grab is still shorter than most (I think even TL) but still.....I think he'll be a legitimately great character now if this is true. Cool!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

N-Air does more damage, yayayayay

Acrobatic Ice Cream-Headed Fire Creating Snake Wielding PK Child o' Doom

i wonder how much lucas will improve from this

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wait what the heck, I went in SSB4 twice and no update......

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait what the heck, I went in SSB4 twice and no update......

Just datamining, nobody's actually played yet.

 

[Y2Kay]

Will this patch be apart of Genesis 3 too?

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's a wonderful side effect of Lucas buffs.

I get to flex my Doc more since he can't absorb the pills. Heh. If Lucas becomes more relevant, people who have a good MU with him will, in turn, power up a little. Just a little, nothing major, but a little.

 

[Gunla]

Will this patch be apart of Genesis 3 too?

Genesis 3 will use whatever patch is out by December 25th, give or take a few days if a hotfix patch shows up.

Wait what the heck, I went in SSB4 twice and no update......

The update is on the servers but not accessible by systems. That's how we're able to go through the files and check for some of the changes, but not all of them.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Genesis 3 will use whatever patch is out by December 25th, give or take a few days if a hotfix patch shows up.


The update is on the servers but not accessible by systems. That's how we're able to go through the files and check for some of the changes, but not all of them.

Not everything's confirmed yet? So Jigglypuff, Duck Hunt, and King Dedede still have a chance?