Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[san.]

Ike is admittedly one of the characters I understand the least. Close Combat has just always seemed like a huge deal for him though, and virtually every kill I get on Ike I find myself thinking "man, he wouldn't have died if he had diagonal up-b."

Ike's default specials underwent metagame progression despite the buffs from Ike's other specials.
tl;dr It overall helps Ike by a fair margin, but each special has its own learning curve compared to the developed originals.

Neutral B:
Eruption: After learning that eruption reaches the lowest and lasts the longest near the sword, it has gained incredible usage since it covers a wide range in addition to the 2-frames. The other eruptions just don't hit below as well as the default.

Tempest: The most recent balance patch reduced the end lag by a whopping 9 frames. It now aids Ike's recovery and gimping prowess by an incredible amount. However, there hasn't really been much testing and it's tough to say how much work you need to put in when eruption is already so absurdly powerful. Tempest may just have a tougher skill curve with a higher skill cap than Eruption, but that's just speculation. Tempest would be amazing if Eruption wasn't so cheese in the first place.

Furious eruption: It has more endlag than previously thought, and the range below it is pretty bad. You have to aim for the 2-frame vulnerability, but it helps that the lasting frames are absurdly long. It's also great at covering edge options after the opponent grabs it, but you are more prone to getting punished if you mess up, or even damaging yourself.


SideB:

Quick Draw: A few balance patches ago, all of Ike's sideBs received reduced startup. I thought that this would help close combat the most, but this really helps the default with escaping juggle traps, recovering, etc. The added distance from momentum is very helpful.

Close Combat: This used to be essential, but the shield stun changes already aided Ike's normals. As a landing trap, close combat is Ike's best option, but it's tough to capitalize off a hit confirm from close combat. That's why this special is very good, but relatively niche depending on your preferences. I ended up preferring quick draw's momentum allowing me to choose how I recover better, though close combat is much better against people jumping directly at you. You can also combo off of close combat sometimes after you immediately grab the edge.

UpB:

Going to be quick with this one. It's entirely up to preference. For most Ike players, the default is just a bit more comfortable to use for low recoveries. The third, aether wave's quickness can be helpful against people who try to spike or attack the aether due to stricter timing. The second, aether drive, is surprisingly tough to "steer" and achieve the position you want. Aether drive's sweetspot to the ledge can drastically change depending on if you are holding forward or back. It's also tricky to use below the stage on some maps. That's why the original is just a "comfortable" choice even though each has its own merits.

DownB:

Counter:
After counter was initially buffed from ~76 KBG to 100, it gained some much needed utility. I personally believe that it's surprisingly good against linear recoveries that are able to be countered. The FAF after the counter swing is also low.

Paralyzing counter:
High risk since it's so difficult to trigger, but insanely high reward with usmash punishes. I don't like the strict timing and it's not even as good as counter against offstage foes since you can barely reach them after the stun offstage.

Smash Counter:
This counter used to be trash, but it was continously buffed until it became a monster. With the change to shield stun, you aren't punished as hard if it's blocked. It's also seriously strong, capable of killing enemies at 40-50%, especially since the KBG was toned down in favor of BKB, which overall increased knockback at most %s. It's unusable offstage, which IMO is counter's greatest niche.

 

[Lavani]

Flame Chain doesn't launch Luma aside from the last hit, which to set up you'd have to just throw out a max range Flame Chain at Luma and pray you somehow don't get punished for it. I don't understand why it's always the sideB mentioned for custom Ganon vs Rosalina.

Ganondorf has superarmor after grabbing with both Flame Choke and Flame Wave. Luma gets a free counterattack on Ganondorf after Flame Choke, but gets taken out by the explosion on Flame Wave before she can get a hit in.

 

[Thinkaman]

I certainly agree that Flame Chain is a bad move. But when on Earth are you actually going to land Flame Wave on Rosalina???

It's a frame 21 move where Ganon scoots an inch forward. Ganon already has that move, and it's called f-smash, except f-smash can hold charge, does significantly more damage+KB, and has 19 frames fewer endlag by my count.

Flame Wave can bypass shields, but on a frame 21 move who cares? It can only be used as a hard read punish anyway.

Nosferatu and default Flame Choke have the same issue, except frame 16 is still fast enough to beat the reactions of someone truly not suspecting it as a possibility. 21 is a bridge much too far in this regard.

Edit: Everyone is talking about the Luma interactions, but who cares? They all suck against Luma as options.

1. Flame Choke sucks because Luma punishes you after.
2. Flame Chain sucks because it doesn't actually do anything to Luma except for the final hitbox, which is dubious/circumstantial spacing of an already poor move.
3. Flame Wave sucks because you never landed it in the first place, Luma or not.

Ganon benefits against Rosalina because Dropkick and Dark Fists are brutally important against her. Side-b, who cares? I'd just take default and maybe pull it out as a surprise while Luma is dead.

 

[adom4]

I certainly agree that Flame Chain is a bad move. But when on Earth are you actually going to land Flame Wave on Rosalina???

It's a frame 21 move where Ganon scoots an inch forward. Ganon already has that move, and it's called f-smash, except f-smash can hold charge, does significantly more damage+KB, and has 19 frames fewer endlag.

Flame Wave can bypass shields, but on a frame 21 move who cares? It can only be used as a hard read punish anyway.

Nosferatu and default Flame Choke have the same issue, except frame 16 is still fast enough to beat the reactions of someone truly not suspecting it as a possibility. 21 is a bridge much too far in this regard.

Wave isn't THAT good vs Rosa but Ganon desperately needs something to threaten shields, even if it's hard to land just the fact that Rosa can't shield for free is good enough.
Also it kills her insanely early (especially the aerial version which can be easier to land on platform heavy stages).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Thinkaman I know you already mentioned that Rosalina has a love/hate relationship with customs regarding how much her opponent gets from them, but what are your thoughts on her own custom options? Shooting Star Bit in particular gets a lot of hate for being a projectile on an already defensive character, but do you think it's all it's hyped up to be? (Also her other options like Luma Warp, if you feel like being wordy again.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Wave isn't THAT good vs Rosa but Ganon desperately needs something to threaten shields, even if it's hard to land just the fact that Rosa can't shield for free is good enough.
Also it kills her insanely early (especially the aerial version which can be easier to land on platform heavy stages).

I agree that Ganon needs something to break the Rosa camp, but I'm unconvinced that such a slow, short range move has any more relevance to the problem than Warlock Punch.

You've at least persuaded me to want to try it out, though!

Thinkaman I know you already mentioned that Rosalina has a love/hate relationship with customs regarding how much her opponent gets from them, but what are your thoughts on her own custom options? Shooting Star Bit in particular gets a lot of hate for being a projectile on an already defensive character, but do you think it's all it's hyped up to be? (Also her other options like Luma Warp, if you feel like being wordy again.)

Shooting Star Bit is a pretty good move, but easily top 3 overrated customs. It loses to reflectors in a unique way, aerial use desyncs Luma in an unhelpful way, and it doesn't apply at all when Luma is dead. Also, Ness/Lucas can absorb it (unlike normal star bits) for what little that's worth.

It's certainly good in the sense that having it is way better than not having it, since normal Star Bits are not an especially relevant move.

Luma Warp is more potent imo, though disproportionately so against people who aren't used to it. It's a complex set of options that is hard to sum up. Analysis aside, imo it should have been the default. (Also see: Super Speed, Jumbo Hoops, ZZS)

 

[adom4]

I agree that Ganon needs something to break the Rosa camp, but I'm unconvinced that such a slow, short range move has any more relevance to the problem than Warlock Punch.

You've at least persuaded me to want to try it out, though!



Shooting Star Bit is a pretty good move, but easily top 3 overrated customs. It loses to reflectors in a unique way, aerial use desyncs Luma in an unhelpful way, and it doesn't apply at all when Luma is dead. Also, Ness/Lucas can absorb it (unlike normal star bits) for what little that's worth.

It's certainly good in the sense that having it is way better than not having it, since normal Star Bits are not an especially relevant move.

Luma Warp is more potent imo, though disproportionately so against people who aren't used to it. It's a complex set of options that is hard to sum up. Analysis aside, imo it should have been the default. (Also see: Super Speed, Jumbo Hoops, ZZS)

I do agree that all of Ganon's side-B's aren't good vs Rosa, but i think that wave is the only one that isn't complete ass when she has Luma out.
For breaking her camp & escaping U-air juggles we have Dropkick anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

I do agree that all of Ganon's side-B's aren't good vs Rosa, but i think that wave is the only one that isn't complete *** when she has Luma out.
For breaking her camp & escaping U-air juggles we have Dropkick anyway.

TBQH a lot of customs arguments comes down to "which of these 3 awful moves are the least awful, even if they still don't really matter?"

Which brings us back to Jigglypuff, as was the plan all along.

 

[Blobface]

TBQH a lot of customs arguments comes down to "which of these 3 awful moves are the least awful, even if they still don't really matter?"

Which brings us back to Jigglypuff, as was the plan all along.

A lot of customs really should be a lot better than they are, but are gutted by completely out-of-proportion endlag/startup (usually both). Given that the last patch made some pretty drastic frame changes to certain customs I seriously hope that changes.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganoncide is also MASSIVELY important vs Rosa due to how tall she is. It is one of few things she has to play carefully against when edgeguarding Ganon. That alone makes both Choke and Wave more useful than Chain.

 

[Locke 06]

@Nobie

Yes. On stream now and about to play vs Sheik.

Edit: lost 2-0. Me and Shinkou are buddies and we go evenly, as evident by the matches. I missed about 3 up tilts and PSOS utilted in wrong places sometimes... Also missed a gimme 2frame DAir spike. Blaaaaaahhhhhhhh. But it's fun. ^_^

 

[Ikes]

Quick thought regarding DK: DK has historically preformed better without customs than with, even in environments where there he is just fighting the same 1111 Sheiks, Diddys, and whoever.

Someone already pointed out that Kong Cyclone is actually worse than Spinning Kong at the highest levels of play, which I wouldn't have fully bought before the cargo throw patch (and the low-% huge damage up-b combos that this brought to many matchups) but is very likely true now.

Custom DK is almost has to be a somewhat better character in cast-relative terms (benefits more from customs, "moves up"), but the delta is smaller than performance variability.


The real, true biggest winners of customs are still, in order:
True Winners:
Significantly Better:
Addresses Cripping Weakness Tier:
Litnus Test Tier:



Pikachu is the "gatekeeper" in the context of customs affecting viability/rank. Not DK, not Rosalina, not Villager--100% Pikachu. "Would I rather fight Pikachu with customs on or off?" Everyone on this list would say "absolutely."

should be obvious.
is almost as good though. Jumbo Hoops fixes a lot of her "problems", and lag-less Weighted Headers give her an offensive game. Seriously, just go rapid-fire a bunch of lag-less Weighted Headers, almost no one knows how incredible this is. I would trade literally any side-b in the game for this move.
ZZS is the best custom in the game. You probably can't understand this until you've played against someone who can use it, but it's comparable to the difference for Rosalina with and without Luma. It's literally fighting two characters.
Dark Fists is the best Counter in the game and redefines Ganon. Wizard's Dropkick salvages several of Ganon's worst matchups, such as Rosalina.
Just gets a lot of comprehensively good MU-specific options and recovery buffs.
is somewhat invalidated in many MUs/stages by timeout rules and minimal recovery choices. Grounding Blow is not a great move and not even worth taking in all situations, but addresses these two key fatal flaws just enough for him to bypass them and become viable in the general environment. As Mac, I would 100% prefer to fight customs-on in every matchup except the above 5 characters.
gets d-throw to Shocking Cape. Nothing else actually matters (Gust Cape sucks, up-b 3 is a novelty), though I guess Fast Fireballs are worth considering in many matchups.
Twisting Fox is just a stupid OoS/ledge-coverage option. Very high risk offset by extremely high reward.
Crescent Slash is just a really, really good kill option.
gets his up-b fixed with Upper Cutter. his other customs are legit options, but don't really fix him as tenth as much as having a great up-b does.
has overrated customs but still pretty good. Dragon Rush is very useful, but the option to take f1 armor'd Rock Hurl is also important.
Dash Slash is one of the most legitimately beneficial customs in the game, sort of like Grounding Blow on Mac. Giving Bowser a source of burst mobility is a game-changer in most of his matchups.
I see listed as having terrible customs, and it blows my mind. Grounding Blow is a f1 armor'd move that sets up the up-b combo at kill %s; like with Rock Hurl, I don't think people appreciate how much MUs change when you introduce a f1 super armor option onto the table--every single pseudo-combo in the game becomes escapable. Then you've got those 15% damage Giant Mechakoopas; normal Mechakoopas are great, but a Link Bomb that does 15%? 15%!
gets his dumb super counter + Advancing Air Slash + cool Monado alternatives, but is still Shulk. *shrug*

gets Heavy Skull Bash, which is a really terrific move for recovering, punishing air dodges, and losing EVO. He also gets a really spooky projectile option in Thunder Wave.

I can buy that don't want to fight Pikachu in particular with customs (based on my limited understanding of their MUs with Pika), but would still "move up" overall. Rose-Scented Waft is a stupid move against anyone with a less-than-incredible recovery, and MM/Samus/DK have by far the biggest variety of viable options for various matchups.

and would almost certainly be next. Hammer Spin Dash is infuriating, and ROB's fast up-b is a big deal for his kill possibilities.

Then you'd have a selection of characters with noteworthy MU-specific options like (Speed Thunder), (Reflector Void), (mostly Meteor Trampoline).

Finally, you get to and , who are the true gatekeepers. Rosalina basically despises customs against anyone mentioned above (especially the top 3), and loves them against anyone else. Villager gets EBT, which despite the nerfs is still a solid measuring stick for for valuable a custom is to someone.

Close-but-no-cigar awards go to , , and .


And here I meant to only say something about DK. Oops.

i mean, toon links fire arrows are one of the best customs hands down

pops people up in the air and functions as solid landmines for just under two seconds, also better for offstage use

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If we're talking about customs and Jigglypuff, it always amuses me how Sakurai managed to make Sing, one of the worst moves in the game, even worse through customs.

 

[Thinkaman]

If we're talking about customs and Jigglypuff, it always amuses me how Sakurai managed to make Sing, one of the worst moves in the game, even worse through customs.

Today on "Things I Said":

On the other hand, if your current move is Sing, you have nowhere to go but up. It is literally impossible for a functioning move to be worse than Sing in 1v1 gameplay.

Thanks, Sakurai.

 

[Daisy101]

So freaking good to see HoH_Venom do so great. I've been following him for a while on SSBMontreal's YouTube channel and he's improved so much from when he started with Ryu. I'm surprised he beat Boreal | HolyNightmare because he never beat him on the YouTube channel if I recall correctly so it's great to see him finally win.

HoH_Venom will be a serious threat if he comes to one of the bigger tournaments, I think.

Hey there, I remember playing with Venom back in last November when the game came out. his lucario was scary when it come to high % Im just overall happy to see he getting love around the world and the MTL Scene. he definitely deserved from the sportsmanship and talent play he has. everyone getting strong by weekly here in Montreal and yet Smash intensifies 2 is coming up next week. There high chance Venom can win some set against Mario ally during this event i believe.
Yet i need to get more often in this scene, Playing with is great in competitive, a lot more enjoyable so far.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If we're talking about customs and Jigglypuff, it always amuses me how Sakurai managed to make Sing, one of the worst moves in the game, even worse through customs.

Where there's a will, there's a way, man! Never, EVER doubt the powers of Sakurai.

 

[BSP]

Then you'd have a selection of characters with noteworthy MU-specific options like (Speed Thunder), (Reflector Void), (mostly Meteor Trampoline).

I know this wasn't the main point of your post by far, but I'd much sooner take On-Fire Hydrant, Dire Hydrant, and Lazy fruit into Pac-Man's MUs as opposed to Meteor trampoline. Although the meteor can help, it only does 3% when used to beat shield and makes his recovery that much more predictable. Meanwhile flames actually scare people and lazy fruits are easy to catch (and steal, i know) to set things up.

We haven't been talking about customs much since they've been laid to the wayside as of late, but I'm sure the three I mentioned could find there way into multiple matches for Pac-Man.

 

[Jamurai]

That feel when your main's customs are complete garbage so you don't have that much to say on the subject. One of MK's customs is literally called "Dreadful Tornado". I would imagine it was meant to be all "instills dread in your opponent! Fear this custom" but no, it is in fact, just dreadful. Who knows whether this was the intention or not. The only custom which could be useful is High Speed Drill, which makes the Rosa matchup a joke to be honest; it's the ultimate "kill Luma" move.

MK very much benefits from a non-custom meta, simply because he gains almost nothing from his customs while other characters gain more options and threaten his viability. For example, Mario gets Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape which help him a lot against MK's quick disjoint game, possibly skewing the matchup in his favour. Also, custom Villager is almost unwinnable if they know what they're doing and requires a secondary.

EDIT: It occurs to me that the reason MK doesn't really benefit from customs is because his standard specials are overall very good and have little to improve upon, especially Shuttle Loop and Tornado which are pretty much perfect as they are.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm surprised nobody said Flame Chain vs. Ryu because Ganon has like, 0 multihitting moves at all to my knowledge that aren't like, Air wizkick depending on situation (aka usually never)

Uh... What happened to Ganondorf's Nair and I guess Down Smash if Ryu somehow landed perfectly into it. With the landing hit of air Wizard's Foot and Flame Chain, that's 4 multi-hit moves.

Edit: "air Wizard"? Ha, look, ma! I got me some Air Wizards! This is more hilarious considering Ganondorf's ledge jump was higher than Falco's in Melee. (sports announcer voice) And here comes the Wizards' Ganondorf making his way to the basket and... And he slams the ball in! The Gerudo Wizards now lead 6-0 to the Hyrule Heroes. Joe, you ever question how a massive man like that can jump that high?

 

[Rizen]

My 2 cents on Link with customs:
I feel like Link is about the same with or without customs, maybe slightly better with them.

UpB
The normal spin attack is the only good choice.
The shocking spin has power but Link isn't short on that and the recovery's terrible.
The wind SA would be good if it sweet-spotted ledges but it doesn't and makes Link extremely vulnerable when recovering. You must travel almost the full distance each time.

Arrows
The quickdraw arrows are better for competitive smash. Link rarely gets to charge his normal bow so getting a faster mid range transcendent version is worth the trade off.
The power bow looks fun for casual play with large stages but has no real function for competitive play. It takes too long to charge.

Boomerang
The 'melee' boomerang (without the wind) is generally the best. The hitbox returning is usually better than the wind.
The gale wind does have certain uses in gimping free falling characters like Ness and it's good vs reflectors because Link won't be hurt by it returning.
The ripping boomerang has no combo ability or range. It's a pos.

Bombs
Overall Link's normal bombs are the most useful. They combo, aid recoveries and can be C4ed.
Link's meteor bombs lose the early % combos (much less stun than normal bombs until high %s) but give Link a true combo into anything at kill %s. Their fuses are much shorter so Link can't hold them long and that takes away much of their versatility and mix-ups. Pull meteor bomb>throw it. The meteor effect is a nice mid-high % gimping tool but Link already has a good intercepting game.
Giant bombs are cool but they don't explode when thrown at the opponent. They don't count as an active hurtbox detector like the other 2. Link loses his amazing combo potential and usually won't recover with them due to the long fuse. They have good uses for stage control but it's not a good trade.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Are more tournaments using customs now or something?

 

[Jigglymaster]

If we're talking about customs and Jigglypuff, it always amuses me how Sakurai managed to make Sing, one of the worst moves in the game, even worse through customs.

Sing was actually buffed in Smash 4. Oddly. Opponents can't mash out of it as fast as they could in Brawl, meaning sing to rest is a reliable combo now. You'd be surprised how many people fall for a random sing in the middle of the stage. The move is still crap don't get me wrong, but it's better than it was in Brawl.

Sakurai, buffing sing doesn't make up for all the things you nerfed her for. Didn't you know that she was a bad character in Brawl already?

As for her customs, I'm willing to bet that they forgot Jigglypuff in the game and were

"Guys, the game ships out tomorrow, Jigglypuff doesn't have any customs"

"OH ****, uh..... here, give her these or something."

 

[Wintropy]

Are more tournaments using customs now or something?

Nah, Thinkaman just discussed how customs changes the meta and it's an interesting topic of conversation. Not necessarily meta-relevant, but it does get discussion going.

Meanwhile, I, despite being a devoted advocate of customs, have no interest whatsoever in Pit's customs. That's in no small part because I honestly don't think any of them are really worth using over the default moves, at least not beyond very specific matchups or personal preference.

On the other hand, Palutena's options really do speak for themselves. I wrote recently about how I don't think customs necessarily salvage her entirely as a character, she still has some pretty fundamental weaknesses (i.e. over-reliance on grab, naff tilts and dreadful smashes), but it definitely opens up a myriad of better opportunities for her, and that in itself is important. I'd say she's definitely one of (if not the) biggest winners with customs, just because she has so many options that you really can tailor her to suit any matchup. It's a case of quantity and quality, which is great when she has neither in default.

MK very much benefits from a non-custom meta, simply because he gains almost nothing from his customs while other characters gain more options and threaten his viability. For example, Mario gets Scalding FLUDD and Shocking Cape which help him a lot against MK's quick disjoint game, possibly skewing the matchup in his favour. Also, custom Villager is almost unwinnable if they know what they're doing and requires a secondary.

It is interesting how much a few changes to basic moves and, to reiterate what I said above, an abundance of options for every character can change the entire meta so drastically. In the case of Meta Knight, so finely-tuned that he is and designed to fit a very specific set of technical criteria, I don't know how more options would necessarily be of benefit to him if the options he has do what they're intended to just fine. Sometimes you're just better of sticking with what you know works. Very fascinating!

 

[Dre89]

Quick thought regarding DK: DK has historically preformed better without customs than with, even in environments where there he is just fighting the same 1111 Sheiks, Diddys, and whoever.

Someone already pointed out that Kong Cyclone is actually worse than Spinning Kong at the highest levels of play, which I wouldn't have fully bought before the cargo throw patch (and the low-% huge damage up-b combos that this brought to many matchups) but is very likely true now.

Custom DK is almost has to be a somewhat better character in cast-relative terms (benefits more from customs, "moves up"), but the delta is smaller than performance variability.


The real, true biggest winners of customs are still, in order:
True Winners:
Significantly Better:
Addresses Cripping Weakness Tier:
Litnus Test Tier:



Pikachu is the "gatekeeper" in the context of customs affecting viability/rank. Not DK, not Rosalina, not Villager--100% Pikachu. "Would I rather fight Pikachu with customs on or off?" Everyone on this list would say "absolutely."

should be obvious.
is almost as good though. Jumbo Hoops fixes a lot of her "problems", and lag-less Weighted Headers give her an offensive game. Seriously, just go rapid-fire a bunch of lag-less Weighted Headers, almost no one knows how incredible this is. I would trade literally any side-b in the game for this move.
ZZS is the best custom in the game. You probably can't understand this until you've played against someone who can use it, but it's comparable to the difference for Rosalina with and without Luma. It's literally fighting two characters.
Dark Fists is the best Counter in the game and redefines Ganon. Wizard's Dropkick salvages several of Ganon's worst matchups, such as Rosalina.
Just gets a lot of comprehensively good MU-specific options and recovery buffs.
is somewhat invalidated in many MUs/stages by timeout rules and minimal recovery choices. Grounding Blow is not a great move and not even worth taking in all situations, but addresses these two key fatal flaws just enough for him to bypass them and become viable in the general environment. As Mac, I would 100% prefer to fight customs-on in every matchup except the above 5 characters.
gets d-throw to Shocking Cape. Nothing else actually matters (Gust Cape sucks, up-b 3 is a novelty), though I guess Fast Fireballs are worth considering in many matchups.
Twisting Fox is just a stupid OoS/ledge-coverage option. Very high risk offset by extremely high reward.
Crescent Slash is just a really, really good kill option.
gets his up-b fixed with Upper Cutter. his other customs are legit options, but don't really fix him as tenth as much as having a great up-b does.
has overrated customs but still pretty good. Dragon Rush is very useful, but the option to take f1 armor'd Rock Hurl is also important.
Dash Slash is one of the most legitimately beneficial customs in the game, sort of like Grounding Blow on Mac. Giving Bowser a source of burst mobility is a game-changer in most of his matchups.
I see listed as having terrible customs, and it blows my mind. Grounding Blow is a f1 armor'd move that sets up the up-b combo at kill %s; like with Rock Hurl, I don't think people appreciate how much MUs change when you introduce a f1 super armor option onto the table--every single pseudo-combo in the game becomes escapable. Then you've got those 15% damage Giant Mechakoopas; normal Mechakoopas are great, but a Link Bomb that does 15%? 15%!
gets his dumb super counter + Advancing Air Slash + cool Monado alternatives, but is still Shulk. *shrug*

gets Heavy Skull Bash, which is a really terrific move for recovering, punishing air dodges, and losing EVO. He also gets a really spooky projectile option in Thunder Wave.

I can buy that don't want to fight Pikachu in particular with customs (based on my limited understanding of their MUs with Pika), but would still "move up" overall. Rose-Scented Waft is a stupid move against anyone with a less-than-incredible recovery, and MM/Samus/DK have by far the biggest variety of viable options for various matchups.

and would almost certainly be next. Hammer Spin Dash is infuriating, and ROB's fast up-b is a big deal for his kill possibilities.

Then you'd have a selection of characters with noteworthy MU-specific options like (Speed Thunder), (Reflector Void), (mostly Meteor Trampoline).

Finally, you get to and , who are the true gatekeepers. Rosalina basically despises customs against anyone mentioned above (especially the top 3), and loves them against anyone else. Villager gets EBT, which despite the nerfs is still a solid measuring stick for for valuable a custom is to someone.

Close-but-no-cigar awards go to , , and .


And here I meant to only say something about DK. Oops.

Aside from giving him 50%+ combos, regular upb has a lot more utility than the custom one.

It has massive range, early SA, intangible arms and does 18%. It's a massive option over on the ground because it beats everything except shielding. Great for catching landings. Massive option cover at the ledge and can be used as a dash attack of sorts. Also kills at higher percents.

In the air it's a frame 4 pseudo combo breaker and off-stage it can frame trap out of bair to either rack up a ton of damage or kill. Against vertical recoveries I've frame trapped upb into a forced ledge trump bair.

 

[wedl!!]

Kong Cyclone is the quintessential scrub-stomper move. It's basically Roy in one move.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi's customs:
- Bouncing Fireball
An already bad move made worse by the 3+ frames of end lag. In Fireball, you pretty much can say 'Well, look. Normal Fireball got its end lag increased. So why am I not even noticing it?'. In Bouncing Fireball, you go like 'Why the **** this move has a FAF of near a second!?'. Likely better vs Rosalina because it can bounces over Luma (Even then, normal Fireballs provide more utility as it's a stronger zoning tool and can also hover above Luma with a little try on precision), but I can't think of another MU where this is actually the best choice. Fireball just outshines this move in almost every MU.

- Iceball
It's a great zoning tool due to how slowly it goes, and after certain range of percents it starts to freeze opponents. Though, because of the 3+ frames of end lag, this move has gotten laggier. IIRC this move also has higher startup than the normal Fireballs. The freezing can't be followed up by anything, either.

- Floating Missile
I once thought this was a good custom, but not so much now. Despite on how fast it charges, it stalls Luigi in a more predictable manner when recovering. When using the normal Missile, death is basically inexorable on people who are on point and know where it's going. Imagine another one of this but is even more telegraphed. Although, it probably is better than the normal Missile. The reason why I don't think this move is worth picking is because of Quick Missile.

- Quick Missile
This is the epitome of what Green Missile should had been. Quick, far-reaching, and is harder to predict. Uncharged version shoots you almost as long as the normal's fully charged version. Fully charged/misfire, and it shoots through the other end of FD to the other. Really good, but caution is definitely needed because it has a worsened end lag.

- Fiery Jump Punch
I haven't experimented with this move since the patch changes. The move now has a 4.0 of hitbox size of sweetspot. But then again, it has reduced power, worse angle, is booty for recovery, and it also deals less damage. Give me the normal's height of jump and I'll probably consider it as a worthy move.

- Burial Header
Absurd for recovery, but is extremely predictable. The falling has no armor/invincibility whatsoever. Jumps REALLY high so it can be seen from a mile away. Still bad vs shields. Buried opponents are good, but landing it is a chore to begin with. You also lose a frame 8 extreme punish move.

- Mach Cyclone
Great for recovering, like a rocket. But it destroys HooHahNado and the original's versatility, including but not limited to aerial mixups, catching airdodges, killing in the air, JC gimps.

- Clo, Clolesh, Clothes--oh **** it. 64 and Melee Cyclone
Can't recover. End of story. Did I also mentioned that it launches people away somehow, clouding its last hit's great knockback? Or the fact you can't do just about everything with the normal Cyclone aside from killing?

TLDR;
Neutral-B: Fireballs outshines all.
Side-B: #QuickMissile4Life
Up-B: SJP outshines all.
Down-B: Normal Cyclone outshines all.

Conclusion: Luigi gets little from customs, while having many thing working against him. Camp him even harder with customs bruh.

 

[Mo433]

Kirby gets great mileage out of customs too.

Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter makes his recovery better than what it was before. He also gets a combo finisher and a solid kill special.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Along with meteor Stone, even if rather impractical,is one of the absolute strongest methods that can hit opponents on the edge.
Then there's his hammers, hammer bash I'm assuming is best.

 

[Smog Frog]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

a relatively unknown took out esam. what does this mean? is esam inexperienced in fighting ? does he beat ? let discussion commence.

 

[L9999]

I agree that Ganon needs something to break the Rosa camp, but I'm unconvinced that such a slow, short range move has any more relevance to the problem than Warlock Punch.

You've at least persuaded me to want to try it out, though!



Shooting Star Bit is a pretty good move, but easily top 3 overrated customs. It loses to reflectors in a unique way, aerial use desyncs Luma in an unhelpful way, and it doesn't apply at all when Luma is dead. Also, Ness/Lucas can absorb it (unlike normal star bits) for what little that's worth.

It's certainly good in the sense that having it is way better than not having it, since normal Star Bits are not an especially relevant move.

Luma Warp is more potent imo, though disproportionately so against people who aren't used to it. It's a complex set of options that is hard to sum up. Analysis aside, imo it should have been the default. (Also see: Super Speed, Jumbo Hoops, ZZS)

Wait, Ness can absorb Shooting Star Bits? As far as I knew he can't, and that move makes the matchup truly unwinnable. Star Bits in the air is only useful if you want to disrespect a Ness player's existence and crush its soul.

Where there's a will, there's a way, man! Never, EVER doubt the powers of Sakurai.

He made PK Flash even worse. Rising PK Flash might as well be the worst move in the entire game. Oh wait, Spinphony and WakieWakie exist.

 

[Smog Frog]

upset again!

ross took out mvd 2-0 w/ .

 

[Djent]

http://www.twitch.tv/mvg_league

a relatively unknown took out esam. what does this mean? is esam inexperienced in fighting ? does he beat ? let discussion commence.

The Ryu is DJ Jack, who played Falco in Brawl IIRC but was not well-known outside of his region. He's a very solid player who has been doing well as Versus locals (though he just got 9th this week lol). He's definitely on the come-up. ESAM otoh was playing very poorly (Who saw the silly side-b kill on the SV platform to clutch game 1 for Jack?). But you could still see the kinds of things that give Pika trouble in this match (Ryu easily living to 150+ and killing off of confirms at 75). ESAM was doing pretty alright at controlling the pace of the match, but the reward-on-hit disparity was abysmal. Actually, that reminds me of another character who used to (and still does?) give Pika trouble...

EDIT: Seriously, eff putting everyone in winners after DE bracket pools. That works better with the RR format. Also:

upset again!

ross took out mvd 2-0 w/ .

Hayato, Hyuga, Zan, and now Ross taking out big names with TL? This character is actually trouble.
EDIT 2: MVD is actually out of the tournament to Sol's .

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Stance on Yoshi's customs:

Neutral 1: Egg Lay

This is probably our most consistent option. That's all I can say at the moment.

Neutral 2: Lick

I have, to this day, never found a use for this move that Egg Lay or Egg Launch didn't cover. It has even more startup than the original Egg Lay, and it's useless against shields. However, I have recently found out that similar to Bowser's Dash Slash, it carries all horizontal momentum when transitioning from air to ground, giving it wavedash-esque properties. Honestly I could see Yoshi using this to buff his mediocre ground game at the expense of losing a weapon against shields. Yoshi already has trouble dealing with them to start with despite his decent pressure, so overall I think the all-around utility of Egg Lay is better.

Neutral 3: Egg Launch

Against characters with poor/short recoveries like Falcon, Mario, and Ganon, I can see this being used over normal Egg Lay. Otherwise I don't see why to use it.



Side 1: Egg Roll

I have no words to describe its horrors. I'd rather play Yoshi's Island.

Side 2: Heavy Egg Roll

Possibly worse. Completely vulnerable to tether grabs. Not even good for escaping pressure.

Side 3: Light Egg Roll

Probably the best of the bunch, though that isn't saying much. It is better to escape pressure than the other two, and that's about it. Any Yoshi mains want to fill in for me?



Up 1: Egg Throw

Easily our best of the three. NO QUESTIONS ASKED. I should not even have to explain why. Anyways, it is an extremely versatile projectile for zoning, camping (despite its lag), and following up into other moves.

Up 2: High Jump

All it does is improve recovery. I haven't really tested it, but I'm pretty sure that like its normal counterpart, it does not auto-sweetspot the ledge, so you're left more vulnerable due to lack of protection that eggs give you, AND you have to recover lower. The option to recover high (which I, like most Yoshis, prefer) still exists, though.

Up 3: Timed Egg Throw

If this were more similar to Samus's bombs pre-Brawl, then maybe I'd see a use for it such as situationally better stage control. As it stands, a built in timer just isn't worth the loss in versatility.



Down 1: Yoshi Bomb

Standard punish move. It's quite strong and can kill most of the cast below 150%. It's laggy, so don't use it carelessly.

Down 2: Star Bomb

I could see this as a way to offer more protection, especially as the first one is outclassed by other killing options Yoshi has. However, I personally don't really see it, and I'd much prefer Yoshi Bomb.

Down 3: Crushing Bomb

Similar to TriTails 's thoughts on Floating Missile, I thought this would get a lot of use for its huge power that helps Yoshi's problems with killing. Boy was I wrong. Even more lag than the standard Bomb, and sometimes the first hit might not combo into the second one (the player can even escape between hits). To pour salt on the wound, you have no protection on either side. This move is terrible honestly.



Verdict: Neutral B: Egg Lay (Egg Launch for certain MUs)
Side B: Light Egg Roll
Up B: Egg Throw
Down B: Yoshi Bomb

(Either 1311 or 3311)

Conclusion: Yoshi's customs suck.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Ross beating MVD is an upset but I'm not that shocked. It has been shown that MVD does not like to fight projectile-heavy characters (he refused to use Diddy vs Scatt) and I believe many people think that Diddy does poorly against zoners. I have heard many people claim that ROB wins the Diddy matchup and it seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Kaladin]

ATTENTION PLEBIANS.

Sol's Little Mac just 2-0'd MVD's Diddy Kong.

Little mac is garbage, they said...

Carry on.

 

[KenMeister]

Guess they weren't kidding when they said MVD is an inconsistent player. Can't help but feel bad for him at this rate. Lol

 

[meleebrawler]

ATTENTION PLEBIANS.

Sol's Little Mac just 2-0'd MVD's Diddy Kong.

Little mac is garbage, they said...

Carry on.

When looking at Little Mac results, it would really help to know the stages he played on.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Ness is Little Mac in one matchup and it is a major thorn in his side, largely contributing to the case people make for him not being top 10. Little Mac is Little Mac in every matchup and people think he's secretly good---what??


We can point to x or y local victory but Little Mac only has ONE good player and even that good player has never done very well at a major. Also, let's not forget that Little Mac will only get worse with time as gimps and combos get optimized.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait, Ness can absorb Shooting Star Bits? As far as I knew he can't, and that move makes the matchup truly unwinnable. Star Bits in the air is only useful if you want to disrespect a Ness player's existence and crush its soul.

Default Star Bits cannot be absorbed (they are considered physical transcendent disjoint instead of anything resembling a projectile), but both Floaty and Shooting Star Bits are energy projectiles and can therefore be absorbed by PSI Magnet/Oil Panic, caught by Pocket, negated with Gravitational Pull, deflected by Upperdash/Electroshock Arm, and reflected by the laundry list of reflectors. (Catching Floaty Star Bit in the bucket is weird because it doesn't vanish when caught, so G&W can get multiple levels from a single bit, but each hit only does 2% so a full bucket doesn't do much anyway.) It's weird but whatever.

EDIT: I'll jump on the custom opinion train. Give me a minute to type out my thoughts on Rosalina's.

Spoiler: Rosalina's Customs

Neutral 1: Luma Shot
Not a terrible move, all things considered. Rosalina gets a lot of flexibility with how far she wants to send Luma out, anywhere from a character length or so away to most of FD. It's also surprisingly powerful when charged, enough to KO. Luma is also invincible at full charge. Note that when Kirby copies this move, his own Luma is always invincible regardless of charge. 6/10

Neutral 2: Luma Warp
IMO Rosalina's best custom overall. If I was forced to use only a single custom at a time, this is the one I'd go with more often than not. She loses a bit of flexibility -- Luma Warp only ever goes a set distance, whereas you can charge Luma Shot to cover a large range of distances -- but it's blindingly fast and lets her mount pressure at a moment's notice if the spacing is right. The main downside is the massive blind spot -- everywhere from directly in front of her to roughly half of FD is safe. 8/10

Neutral 3: Power Luma Shot
Lingering hitboxes are good. Lingering hitboxes that tie up your defining character gimmick and force you to go without for the move's duration are not. Power Luma Shot is the latter. If you charge it up all the way before releasing, Luma becomes invincible, but that applies to default Luma Shot too so it's not particularly noteworthy by itself. Luma is otherwise perfectly vulnerable, and it takes longer to charge anyway so odds are you won't be able to. Best use I can think of is to cover ledge options, but you're Rosalina. You have other options for that. If it made Luma invincible regardless of charge it would be much better. 2/10

Side 1: Star Bits
These are not a projectile for some reason, although the customs are. They do the most damage and have more range than anything else in Luma's arsenal, plus they're transcendent. It's nothing special though. 4/10

Side 2: Floaty Star Bit
The latest patch buffed the cooldown on this so Rosalina can act faster after using it. It's now a decent-if-not-amazing projectile that serves more as an obstacle than anything else. It also doesn't vanish on hit. IMO it's better than the default Star Bits but not by a spectacular amount. 4/10

Side 3: Shooting Star Bit
Rosalina gets a long range projectile, and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Thinkaman already covered some of its downsides earlier but I'll reiterate them here: Using it (or any other version of Star Bits) pauses Luma in midair, which separates it from Rosalina and therefore limits all 3 versions to ground-only use for the most part. It's also uniquely vulnerable to reflectors for the same reason -- the reflected bit is basically guaranteed to hit Luma in the face. That said, it's a way for Rosalina to do something at long range. 7/10

Up 1: Launch Star
Simultaneously an excellent and awful recovery move. Excellent because the range is insane and lets Rosalina come back from close to the blast line. Awful because it doesn't protect her at all and leaves her open to any interception attempt. Still good because she can angle it somewhat freely, anywhere from straight up to roughly 30-45 degrees in front of her. The upwards angle is hard to do without self destructing though, since it requires you to tilt the stick backwards before launch and it's easy to accidentally b-reverse and launch in completely the wrong direction. Her best overall recovery option. 7/10

Up 2: Launch Star Plus
Rosalina flies faster but can't angle her launch. That's it. Oh, she gets a smidge of extra height, I'm talking maybe half her height. Given that Launch Star can sometimes be a pain to recover with safely (yay no hitboxes, yay touchy angling controls), this can be useful for trying to blow past an edgeguard attempt or just bypass the headache of dealing with accidental self destructs. I prefer the flexibility of default, personally. 5/10

Up 3: Launch Star Attack
The distance is cut roughly in half, but there's a hitbox on it. Yay! Except not only is the distance cut in half, Rosalina's momentum comes to a screeching halt at the end so she can't drift sideways well at all after using it. Also the attack itself is kind of bootycheeks and basically won't kill anyone ever. Really, the fact it has a hitbox at all is the only reason to use it ever. Would be better if it let her drift normally at the apex. 2/10

Down 1: Gravitational Pull
The reason Ness mains hate Rosalina. At least the ones I've met in person. Also a big reason it's really hard to camp Rosalina out. IIRC the absorption frames last a little bit after she can move again, which means she can spam it to make the area around her a giant "no projectiles allowed" zone with zero gaps. Free advice: This move does nothing to non-projectile/item attacks, so if she does it too close then she can be punished for it. Useless against anyone without a projectile, but if you don't know your opponent then it's still her best option for general use. 7/10

Down 2: Catch & Release
Despite what the word "catch" may imply, this is treated as a normal hit instead of a grab. Given that Gravitational Pull is a giant middle finger to every projectile ever, the only real reason to consider this is if your opponent doesn't have a projectile at all, which is...10 or so members of the cast, give or take a few. The windbox can mess up spacing and cause attacks to whiff if you're lucky, I guess. If it had a powerful windbox instead of a hitbox, it may actually have some hilarious utility, but as it is, it's just bad. 2/10

Down 3: Guardian Luma
Like Catch & Release, this move is really underwhelming. But at least it makes Luma invincible while embiggened, which is something. It's the superior of the two for projectile-less matchups since it can still protect Luma from stray hits, rare as that may be. Fun fact: This move can still pull in items, but not regular projectiles. For instance, it'll draw in turnips but not Charge Shot. So against, say, Peach, this move is strictly superior to Gravitational Pull. 4/10

Summary: Default is fine for general use, nothing really awful. Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bits are her best options, but you're not crippled if you use something else. (That's a perk of being top tier, I guess.) There's room for personal preference with Floaty Star Bit, Launch Star Plus, and Guardian Luma -- they're not fantastic but they're workable. Guardian Luma in particular goes from "meh" to "best option" in specific matchups where projectiles aren't an issue.

Preferred Set: 2311 (or 2313 against characters without a projectile, or whose only projectile counts as an item, e.g. Peach)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Neutral 2: Lick

It basically just gives us another gimmicky kill option even tho it doesn't kill till like 130+% on most characters.

Neutral 3: Egg Launch

Against characters with poor/short recoveries like Falcon, Mario, and Ganon, I can see this being used over normal Egg Lay. Otherwise I don't see why to use it.

It's actually a couple frames faster than regular egg lay since they nerfed vanilla Neutral B but not the customs. Otherwise yoshi is a fair happy character so he wants his opponents off stage, might be good in some match ups.

Side 3: Light Egg Roll

Probably the best of the bunch, though that isn't saying much. It is better to escape pressure than the other two, and that's about it. Any Yoshi mains want to fill in for me?

I have yet to see this be used as an escape, infact I remember watching a stream in my city once where cause of how glitchy it is on platforms or slants, it causes them to be stuck sometimes and leaves them prone to being attacked. This is a bad custom, and possibly worst move in smash before the changes in Smash4 no longer put him in free fall thankfully. No egg roll/side-b customs is good for Yoshi, not even vanilla.

Up 2: High Jump

All it does is improve recovery. I haven't really tested it, but I'm pretty sure that like its normal counterpart, it does not auto-sweetspot the ledge, so you're left more vulnerable due to lack of protection that eggs give you, AND you have to recover lower. The option to recover high (which I, like most Yoshis, prefer) still exists, though.

Never get this custom, ever. The trade of for an extremely slight boost to recovery is not worth losing one of the most versatile projectiles in the game.

Up 3: Timed Egg Throw

If this were more similar to Samus's bombs pre-Brawl, then maybe I'd see a use for it such as situationally better stage control. As it stands, a built in timer just isn't worth the loss in versatility.

This custom would be good if it blew up on impact like regular egg throw.

Down 2: Star Bomb

I could see this as a way to offer more protection, especially as the first one is outclassed by other killing options Yoshi has. However, I personally don't really see it, and I'd much prefer Yoshi Bomb.

No reason to trade out our best shield break and 19% kill move to have some gimmicky projectiles when we have Eggs already.

Down 3: Crushing Bomb

I thought this would get a lot of use for its huge power that helps Yoshi's problems with killing. Boy was I wrong. Even more lag than the standard Bomb, and sometimes the first hit might not combo into the second one (the player can even escape between hits). To pour salt on the wound, you have no protection on either side. This move is terrible honestly.

The only use this custom would have is when using downb to grab the ledge from high up or as a ledge trump option, otherwise you can just use vanilla downb for that anyways without the whole second of Yoshi doing his animation before doing the actual move.

Verdict: Neutral B: Egg Lay (Egg Launch for certain MUs)
Side B: Light Egg Roll
Up B: Egg Throw
Down B: Yoshi Bomb

(Either 1311 or 3311)

Conclusion: Yoshi's customs suck.

Egg launch is prolly the only custom in Yoshi's arsenal worth using. Side-b's offer nothing, UpB why get rid of vanilla eggs, Down b people thought beforehand maybe crushing would have some use for being a huge kill move if you somehow land it on bad opponents, but nah it's just bad.