Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nobie]

I know it's ancient news at this point, but what do people think of the effects that the two-frame nerf to rolls has had on characters and competition?

For me, I've noticed that Mewtwo has suffered immensely from having worse rolls. Keep in mind, Mewtwo never had good rolls in the first place, but once upon a time they had somewhat adequate invincibility, so that if you correctly predicted an opponent's attack, you could roll behind and punish.

But it went from 3 frame startup, 12 invincible frames, and 15 frames of end lag, to 3 frame start up, a measly 10 frames of invincibility, and 17 frames of end lag. Sometimes, when you try to roll behind someone, you'll get hit by the back of their jab because Mewtwo's roll invincibility vanished eons ago.

4-15 invincibility is workable. 4-13 is a sad place to be.

 

[wedl!!]

Peach Fair also doesn't last one frame, unlke Puff bair. The hitbox is also much larger; Puff's only follows a straight horizontal line, Peach Fair is a sweeping hitbox.

 

[Ffamran]

Woohoo! Random animation stuff nobody cares about incoming.

Spoiler: Philosophy of Captain Falcon & Ganondorf's fighting styles

Except for D-throw, Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's throws are all animated differently. B-throw doesn't really matter since it's just a difference between Captain Falcon using both hands to hold his opponent while Ganondorf only uses one, but U- and F-throw might have implications on their "philosophies". For U-throw, Captain Falcon does this weird closed fist uppercut while Ganondorf does a palm strike - he's like pushing you up. For F-throw, Captain Falcon does an uppercut to what looks like your chest or chin - blame Fox's big ol' head -, but Ganondorf does an uppercut to your stomach. What's so special about this? External vs. internal damage.

A concept found in Asian martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, is the idea of "hard" and "soft" styles of martial arts. Hard is purely external where the focus is on things like breaking your bones, knocking you out, or just hitting hard. Soft is internal where the focus is hitting "through" you, hitting weak points, and hurting you in ways you can't just endure the hit. In most cases, palm strikes are associated with soft style martial arts.

Captain Falcon being associated with fire and some thinking he's associated with Muay Thai makes total sense. Yes, fire can burn to the bone, but it starts on the outside first and Muay Thai is a unique martial art in a preconceived region where people think martial arts are usually all hand wavey and stuff; Muay Thai is very physical and is definitely a hard style martial art. Ganondorf's obviously associated with darkness and what is darkness usually connected with? Undermining, stealth, a focus on hitting weak points, weakening, or hitting what you can't "perceive". This doesn't apply to all of his moves, but some of them like his U- and F-throw, his Warlock Punch's animation resembling tai chi arm movements, Flame Choke, Dark Dive, jab, and you could even say his Side Smash's disjoint could all be considered as Ganondorf hitting through you to cause as much damage as possible and in a way you cannot take many hits.

There is an issue: usually soft style won't be launching you far. If anything, Ganondorf's F-throw should probably cause you to crumple over, but it's Smash, a series based on high knockback combat. Still, it would have been interesting to see Ganondorf with a 13% F-throw that just crumples you. Imagine the setups.

Unrelated to this, but apparently, Captain Falcon does a turnaround back kick for grounded Falcon Kick and Ganondorf does a roundhouse kick for Wizard's Foot on the ground. This probably explains why Falcon Kick can hit at pointblank while Wizard's Foot can't since Ganondorf sets himself up through a roundhouse before launching forward while Captain Falcon while setting up is kicking and launching forward.

Disjoint talk below.

Spoiler: Fox and Falco's Dtilt

I was curious about Fox's Dtilt range compared to Falco's since one, Fox's got a bushy tail while Falco's got a short, thin tail. Apparently, Fox's tip of his tail, the white tip, does not have a hitbox at all for Dtilt. Fox's Dtilt starts at the end of his tail tip where his brown fur starts. That's kind of bad for an average to shorter character who's a melee fighter. Falco's Dtilt ends about twice his normal tail length. I didn't compare their ranges, but during Dtilt, Falco's tail does grow, but not enough to tell you the whole story. I think with his tail "grown", Dtilt's disjoint would be like a third of his tail. What doesn't make this "better" is that Falco steps forward during Dtilt unlike in Melee and Brawl? where he just spun around like how Fox does Dtilt. Because of that, Dtilt has slightly longer range than his Ftilt.

Want to know what's even worse? Both their Dtilt lies to you about their range. The wake/trail on Fox's is longer than his actual range while Falco's is shorter. Fox's is less of an issue since his tail tip isn't that long, but Falco's is an issue when the trail ends a third of a way his actual range is. That's kind of like Captain Falcon's Side Smash disjoint not "showing" unlike Ganondorf's where there is a clear darkness effect showing where his disjoint is. Also, even though, realistically, Fox's tail tip should be tickling you, it's a game, and it'd be nice if his Dtilt hitbox matched the trail.

Fox's Dtilt to me is kind of underwhelming. It's useful, but Fox has better options if he wants to setup stuff. Now, here's the thing: with a tail that bushy, you'd expect him to be able to push you like Captain Falcon's Dtilt or sweep you off your feet like a trip effect. That only happens if you hit near the base of his tail. For whatever inexplicable reason, tipping with his tail launches you straight up. Instead, I think his Dtilt should always launch you at a low angle instead of further hitboxes launching at 65, 80, and 90 - Falco only has one launch angle of 75 on all hitboxes - and the closer you hit, the higher the chance you can trip someone.

Also, in Smash 5, please make Falco's Dtilt look like it's actually capable of its dumb capabilities and range. You could literally slap Captain Falcon's Dtilt animation on and it would look more sensible while being fair.

Edit:

Peach Fair also doesn't last one frame, unlke Puff bair. The hitbox is also much larger; Puff's only follows a straight horizontal line, Peach Fair is a sweeping hitbox.

It's 2 frames; you count the first frame and the last frame(s). So, a move that is frame 2-3 has 2 active frames, a move that is frame 2-4 has 3, a move thats is frame 10-14 has 5 active frames, and so on and so forth.

 

[Kofu]

Glad to see people are realizing that Jigglypuff is bad, I've been convinced she's awful for months now.

I do think Jigglypuff could easily be buffed; she basically needs a "greatest hits" of all of her moves from various smash games. Give her the... dash attack from Melee

I'm not well-versed in Melee, particularly anything with Puff that's not Rest/Wall of Pain. But IMO her dash attack in this game is pretty dang good. While it's not particularly fast frame-wise, it lingers, does nice damage, has kill power, gives her burst ground mobility, and beats most clank interactions (it does 12% so it'll basically beat anything that's not more than 21%). Was Melee's dash attack actually that good? Her dash attack in Brawl was okay as well, it at least had kill power and gave her a DACUS.

Rollout from Brawl

As a customs advocate, I'm a little surprised you didn't mention her customs for Rollout. I see both as improvements, honestly, as they mitigate one of the move's big issues: lack of safety on shield. Relentless Rollout hits multiple times and runs through shields and can provide amusing shield pressure if done right. Raging Rollout is probably a little too slow to be useful, but it's unblockable and even more powerful.

and keep this game's version of bair/dair/dsmash. Nair and uair can kinda come from wherever as they're similarly good in all games, maybe find some way to make ftilt/dtilt/jab a little less useless than they've been in every game

Can't say much about BAir, but I was under the impression that DAir was better in previous games? At least a little? Right now the move is pretty slow and other moves are better for gimping. At least it does good damage. Jab is semi-useful now, its hitstun is a little low but you can use it as a mixup and get a grab or dash attack out of it a lot of the time.

Bair is amazing. Decent range (1 and a half Puffs from puff herself), safe on shield (in my experience, if done retreating), kills at 125% from the center of FD against Mario with no DI and kills under 100% from the very edge of FD (Mario without DI), all without Rage taken into affect. Frame 12, which isn't horrible considering Peach's Fair is what it is.

Really good move on a character with everything else against her.

BAir has two hitboxes, and though they do the same damage, the one closer to her body does more knockback and KOs noticeably earlier. Otherwise I think you're pretty much right about the move.

 

[Luco]

In my opinion Ganon really only gets "destroyed" by Shiek, Villager, Rosa and mayyybe ZSS.(I.e 30:70 MU) because those 3 or 4 have the tools to abuse Ganons faults to an extreme degree to the point where Ganon has to guess more than he would like in neutral. He also probably loses against every high and top tiers except Ness but not any harder than 40:60. His reward is absurd, neutral while not good, is not garbage(he has range, safe, fast and very strong pokes and burst movement) plus he can condition his opponents given his power and range.

In my experience Ganon loses the Ness MU and the last patch didn't do anything to change the fact that he'll be taking 40-50% each time he gets sent off-stage. It also doesn't help that he has t-rex-level grab capabilities. He can defo turn it around, but it's a solid disadvantage for him because of pretty much PKT harassment alone.

Also I could be wrong but Puff's Bair feels almost as if you can't contest it in the air, as if it was invincible except I assume it isn't, and I don't know why. Does the leg not have a hurtbox when she extends it?

 

[Wintropy]

To be fair though, not to discredit you, but can't that apply to all characters? Wintropy brought up earlier how hellish it is to pull off combos with Ryu. While Meta Knight and Ryu are among the most difficult in the cast to play, (And possibly THE most difficult in the cast to play) doesn't the majority of the cast require a lot of time and effort to lay to their fullest potential? Aside from maybe like, the mario bros or something.

Now now, I never said that Ryu's combos are "hellish", just that they're difficult to the uninitiated. I know I'd be able to do them no bother if I dedicated myself to it, but I don't play Ryu beyond the occasional dabbling of the character and I have no desire to lab instant-death combos that I will never find practical in a real match.

It's true that every character requires time and devotion to play to their fullest potential, but some characters have an easier skill floor than others. In other words, you can "pick up and play" them with greater ease than others. Mario or Pit, for example, have relatively low skill floors: you can try them out for a few matches and be expected to have a decent grasp of their fighting styles and how their moveset fits together. There isn't much that fundamentally requires excessive precision or dedicated input mastery, it's just a matter of knowing how everything segues into the next move and refining your understanding of when and how to use these moves.

Then you have characters with higher skill floors, characters with complex moves or unorthodox techniques that require you to know how the move itself works before you can become adept with it. Ryu is a good example: if you don't know about sensitive or true inputs, he's basically just a slow, hard-hitting karate man that throws fireballs. Yet a True Shoryuken is a very different entity to a vanilla Shoryuken: you have to know how to use the move itself before you can even begin to use it in connection with other moves. Focus Attack is the same, you have to practice using the move and getting to grips with what it does before you can use it in your overall gameplan. Because Ryu's playstyle requires you to practice individual moves before you can move onto playing him properly, his skill floor is much higher than that of Mario or Pit. In other words, Ryu's moves have their own individual metas before you even get into the greater meta of Ryu himself.

I think any character that requires you to be adept with a unique mechanic or that has very technically demanding moves can be considered a "high skill floor" character: Shulk's Monado Arts, Olimar's Pikmin, Peach's float, Rosalina's puppeteering, Sheik's high-tech gameplan, etc. You can pick these characters up on a whim and be able to play them on a very fundamental level, because Smash as a game is designed to have a very low skill floor, but short of having an innate talent for that kind of playstyle, you probably won't be able to play them with the same kind of intuitive ease that you can with a more beginner-friendly character. The other wonderful thing about Smash is that it has a very deep and complex metagame when you get into the technical side of things, which means you really do have to dedicate yourself to whatever character you play. You can play the easiest character in the game and do well with them, but you have to understand the technicalities of the game, how the character's moveset fits together, the competitive mindset, stage counterpicks and all that jazzmatazz. Smash itself is the Mario of fighting games: easy to pick up and play, but requires great time and knowledge to be really good.

This is, incidentally, why Mario is a very popular tournament character (both as a main and a counterpick): he's very easy to get to grips with and the fact that he has good matchups with relevant characters means you can pick him up as a pocket without having to dedicate too much time to him. You'd get the same kind of pocket potential with, say, Sheik or Ryu, but they're relatively difficult to just have on hand without knowing how to play them. By the time you'd have a sufficient understanding to be a threat with them, you'd be better off just dedicating yourself to them full-time.

Aside: I think the only reason why Pit isn't that popular, despite being an easy character to play and having a good matchup spread, is because his spread isn't so evidently good that it convinces people to play him. I've said this ten billion times before, so I'm just gonna say that's that.

- Philosophy of Captain Falcon & Ganondorf's fighting styles -

I always feel more intelligent when I read your posts. Wonderful stuff, I love contextual details of this type.

 

[meleebrawler]

I know it's ancient news at this point, but what do people think of the effects that the two-frame nerf to rolls has had on characters and competition?

For me, I've noticed that Mewtwo has suffered immensely from having worse rolls. Keep in mind, Mewtwo never had good rolls in the first place, but once upon a time they had somewhat adequate invincibility, so that if you correctly predicted an opponent's attack, you could roll behind and punish.

But it went from 3 frame startup, 12 invincible frames, and 15 frames of end lag, to 3 frame start up, a measly 10 frames of invincibility, and 17 frames of end lag. Sometimes, when you try to roll behind someone, you'll get hit by the back of their jab because Mewtwo's roll invincibility vanished eons ago.

4-15 invincibility is workable. 4-13 is a sad place to be.

Mewtwo's rolls were never good, yet consciously or not he's always had some other movement options to make up for it (though Melee rolls kind of sucked in general). In Melee he had Teleport + strong wavedashing, here he has short-hop airdodges and Confusion (and Shadow Ball recoil, and Teleport ledge-cancelling...).

 

[adom4]

In my experience Ganon loses the Ness MU and the last patch didn't do anything to change the fact that he'll be taking 40-50% each time he gets sent off-stage. It also doesn't help that he has t-rex-level grab capabilities. He can defo turn it around, but it's a solid disadvantage for him because of pretty much PKT harassment alone.

Also I could be wrong but Puff's Bair feels almost as if you can't contest it in the air, as if it was invincible except I assume it isn't, and I don't know why. Does the leg not have a hurtbox when she extends it?

I wouldn't call it a SOLID disadvantage but yeah PK thunder harrasment is a pain in the ass, it's definitely one of Ganon's better high tier MUs that's for sure.

Also personally i feel like the Sheik MU isn't as horrible as it used to be, Nair is a godsend because it beats BF offstage 99% of the time, it's still kind of bad but it feels somewhat doable.
If anything his worst MUs are (aggressive) Pikachus & Sonic.

 

[Lavani]

Also I could be wrong but Puff's Bair feels almost as if you can't contest it in the air, as if it was invincible except I assume it isn't, and I don't know why. Does the leg not have a hurtbox when she extends it?

It probably has to do with the fact that she doesn't extend her leg until she's attacking with it, and doesn't leave it extended afterward. Her leg isn't invincible, and as far as I can tell her bair has no disjoint in this game.

 

[Luco]

I wouldn't call it a SOLID disadvantage but yeah PK thunder harrasment is a pain in the ***, it's definitely one of Ganon's better high tier MUs that's for sure.

Also personally i feel like the Sheik MU isn't as horrible as it used to be, Nair is a godsend because it beats BF offstage 99% of the time, it's still kind of bad but it feels somewhat doable.
If anything his worst MUs are (aggressive) Pikachus & Sonic.

Ahhh sorry. I meant "solid" as in it's clear why it's a loss, but I wouldn't call it any worse than a +/-1.

And disjoint was probably the word I meant to use. Thanks Lavani.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

I think it does OK versus R.O.B., up tilt to rest is a true combo at percentages below 100 (I want to say around 50; it's been so long since I've played a competent Jigglypuff) and he's fairly easy to harass off-stage. If done with modest precision, Jigglypuff's approach through jumps can weave through R.O.B.'s neutral game and force him to just spam n-air and f-tilt (which is an underrated anti-air from R.O.B., the hitbox starts on his torso and is thus deceptively quick) to avoid being crossed up
so many times. Unfortunately for Jigglypuff, R.O.B.'s n-air kills it like it killed everyone in Brawl so it has to always punish its start-up or fade back. If Jigglypuff is grounded, retreating will help R.O.B. recover his control. If it's aviating, it can move back in, but Pound or a fast-fall -> dash/shield grab works better since R.O.B. will most likely use the autocancel to shield or something.

Also, how does Jigglypuff deal with Sheik's f-air?

Uptilt rest stops being a true combo waaaaaay befor kill range. R.O.B can be annoying but his match up has really never been that hard for me. He is nowhere near the level of incovienience the sword fighters bring to jigglypuff. shieks has to play REALLY campy with the fairs to get anywhere with them, jiggs if probably the only character to make someone play shiek that way.

 

[TriTails]

To be fair though, not to discredit you, but can't that apply to all characters? Wintropy brought up earlier how hellish it is to pull off combos with Ryu. While Meta Knight and Ryu are among the most difficult in the cast to play, (And possibly THE most difficult in the cast to play) doesn't the majority of the cast require a lot of time and effort to lay to their fullest potential? Aside from maybe like, the mario bros or something.

I'm not sure if other Mario mains think so, but I don't think Mario doesn't require a lot of time to use to his fullest potential. Reads are important for this character because of his one glaring flaw, he struggles to kill unless he lands an U-smash. He can't kill you in the air unless it's like ultra high percents raged SJP or U-air, or rage ledge trump B-air.

I have seen Ally letting people live to like, 170% before he can utilize a SUPER JUMP PUNCH to kill (If y'all are curious, look at Ally vs Mr. R). This may be not be much of a problem in mid level play, where people still run into random U-smashes. But when fighting against people who wall you out and stay away from smashes, Mario's life get significantly harder.

The same goes for Luigi, actually. His D-throw combos are not as obvious as before (Whereas pre-patch you could double F-air for a regrab and then kill them at 110% guaranteed with D-throw B-air) and his most reliable killing setups were either greatly weakened (HooHahNado) or erased almost completely (D-throw B-air). Reads are more important to him than ever, because his mobility sucks and U-smash doesn't kill as well as Mario's when DI'd. He gets walled out a lot more than his bro (Who has an actual reflector. Here we have a garbage missile as our Side-B) and life is hard when something like Samus' Charge Shot and Z-air can actually give you a lot of trouble.

Doesn't help that this character's neutral is absolutely inconsistent. Luigi's neutral and approach options depends almost entirely on 'Can you deal with Fireballs?' or 'Can you deal with his SH spaced F-airs and B-airs?'.

Also, on the Jiggly discussion, I usually hear stuffs like 'she can escape combos so it's one of her advantage'. I have always questioned the legit-ness of this statement, as if you are the lightest character in the game, two hit and that may equal to a four or five hits in a normal weighted character already.

I mean, I don't care if you escape my combos. You die so early to my attacks that it doesn't even matter in the long run.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

What is Jiggs supposed to do against a patient player that respects her pokes, but is more then willing to trade hits and anti-air Jiggs all day? It's not like the lightest character in the game can afford to take trades. That, and her anti-shield button has a minimum of 18 frames of end lag past the hitbox. 33 if you hit on the first active frame. Against someone who knows what pound does, you likely won't break the shield.

And your earliest kill option in rest? It has a coin-flip chance to getting you killed in response because of how kills off the top work in Smash 4.

I don't see her in top 40, let alone top 20.

I think you should play a match aganst a competitint jigglypuff befor you call her bottem 40. I consider myself a competitent jigglypuff. What's your NNID?

Jiggz doesn't seem very good to me but IDK much about her. What are her favorable MU?

Shiek
Bowser
Rosalina and Luma
Gannondorf
Sonic
Mewtwo
Pautana
Charizard
Then DDD
There might be more. I haven't faced enough good ZZS's to be sure about that matchup but it might also be in jiggs favor because of how ight she is.

 

[420quickscoper]

To add to the Puff discussion, I will agree with y'all. When you think about it Jiggs is really a Bottom 5 or Bottom 3 character.

She has a slow dashing speed, bad ground game, not a good neutral, bad recovery (Yes, I know. It's so gimpable that I can't call it good. Wish she still had Rising Pound.) not the best air game, lightest character, and, of course, pretty much the worst custom moveset in the game. She also holds the worst custom move in the game, Spinphony.

And her positives are what? Having a good offstage game and gimping ability, and being ability to escape combos? There are people with a lot better offstage games, and escaping combos does not really matter when you're going to be knocked out at 80%.

So, yeah. Puff is ****.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

It probably has to do with the fact that she doesn't extend her leg until she's attacking with it, and doesn't leave it extended afterward. Her leg isn't invincible, and as far as I can tell her bair has no disjoint in this game.

Yup. You are coreect. I wouldn't reccomend challenging it without a larg disjont though!

 

[420quickscoper]

I think you should play a match aganst a competitint jigglypuff befor you call her bottem 40. I consider myself a competitent jigglypuff. What's your NNID?


Shiek
Bowser
Rosalina and Luma
Gannondorf
Sonic
Mewtwo
Pautana
Charizard
Then DDD
There might be more. I haven't faced enough good ZZS's to be sure about that matchup but it might also be in jiggs favor because of how ight she is.

Personally, no one really "wins" against Sheik.
Bowser, in my opinion, isn't much in Puff's favor. Sure, she can gimp Bowser, what else does she have?
Sonic? What?
Mewtwo? Why? As far as I'm concerned, I honestly think Mewtwo wins that matchup.
Palutena? I would like to know more.
I can understand the other heavyweights.

I doubt those matchups are actually good for Jigglypuff, really. And, to be honest with you, if she actually wins those and just those, what's the point? You're not a good character if you only can beat around 5 characters solidly.

 

[adom4]

I think you should play a match aganst a competitint jigglypuff befor you call her bottem 40. I consider myself a competitent jigglypuff. What's your NNID?


Shiek
Bowser
Rosalina and Luma
Gannondorf
Sonic
Mewtwo
Pautana
Charizard
Then DDD
There might be more. I haven't faced enough good ZZS's to be sure about that matchup but it might also be in jiggs favor because of how ight she is.

Yeah no way Jiggs wins against Ganondorf, she's probably his easiest MU.
She has no good way getting past Nair at all, seriously all we need to do is stay back & space.
She does edgeguard him rather well but nowhere near that hard so it's impossible to come back.
It's like the only Ganon MU which i can say that Ganon wins somewhat hard.

 

[meleebrawler]

Also, on the Jiggly discussion, I usually hear stuffs like 'she can escape combos so it's one of her advantage'. I have always questioned the legit-ness of this statement, as if you are the lightest character in the game, two hit and that may equal to a four or five hits in a normal weighted character already.

I mean, I don't care if you escape my combos. You die so early to my attacks that it doesn't even matter in the long run.

Probably just to comfort themselves by saying "hey, at least we're not Mewtwo who doesn't escape combos so easily!". Well his ability to reset is much better with faster falling and teleport. And the fall speed alone actually gives him considerably better vertical survivability.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

To add to the Puff discussion, I will agree with y'all. When you think about it Jiggs is really a Bottom 5 or Bottom 3 character.

She has a slow dashing speed, bad ground game, not a good neutral, bad recovery (Yes, I know. It's so gimpable that I can't call it good. Wish she still had Rising Pound.) not the best air game, lightest character, and, of course, pretty much the worst custom moveset in the game. She also holds the worst custom move in the game, Spinphony.

And her positives are what? Having a good offstage game and gimping ability, and being ability to escape combos? There are people with a lot better offstage games, and escaping combos does not really matter when you're going to be knocked out at 80%.

So, yeah. Puff is ****.

Are you joking? She has the best arial mobility in the GAME. She has by far the best air game I have seen from any character. She is basicly an ariel little mac, except with ok smash attacks.

You don't know my character at all. You basicly got on here and just started talking trash about my main. She gimps sonic because his recovery is linnear and his attack patterns aren't really made to deal with her. Shiek has been known to struggle with jigglypuff. Rosalina and Luma are easy combo food. Mewtwo is easy combo food Palutaina has the shiek situation where her projectlie doesn't really help agianst puff and is easy combo food. If puff can combo you, then you basicly have a bad situation.

Probably just to comfort themselves by saying "hey, at least we're not Mewtwo who doesn't escape combos so easily!". Well his ability to reset is much better with faster falling and teleport. And the fall speed alone actually gives him considerably better vertical survivability.

Actually no, tat's not what we are doing. It is litterally hard to combo jigglypuff when she gets above 80%.

 

[adom4]

Actually no, tat's not what we are doing. It is litterally hard to combo jigglypuff when she gets above 80%.

What does it matter when every character in the game can kill Jigglypuff at 80%?

 

[meleebrawler]

Are you joking? She has the best arial mobility in the GAME. She has by far the best air game I have seen from any character. She is basicly an ariel little mac, except with ok smash attacks.

You don't know my character at all. You basicly got on here and just started talking trash about my main. She gimps sonic because his recovery is linnear and his attack patterns aren't really made to deal with her. Shiek has been known to struggle with jigglypuff. Rosalina and Luma are easy combo food. Mewtwo is easy combo food Palutaina has the shiek situation where her projectlie doesn't really help agianst puff and is easy combo food. If puff can combo you, then you basicly have a bad situation.

Nah, best aerial mobility is probably Yoshi. Faster on all fronts and Egg Throw lets him stay in the air almost as long.

Jiggly's smashes are bad, they're very laggy and have terrible range. Power is the only decent thing about them (or the semi-spike on dsmash).

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

What does it matter when every character in the game can kill Jigglypuff at 80%?

I hardly ever let myself get killed at 80%. That's why it matters. If someone like sheik is trying to upair you you can escape and not die. THAT'S why it matters.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Personally, no one really "wins" against Sheik.
Bowser, in my opinion, isn't much in Puff's favor. Sure, she can gimp Bowser, what else does she have?
Sonic? What?
Mewtwo? Why? As far as I'm concerned, I honestly think Mewtwo wins that matchup.
Palutena? I would like to know more.
I can understand the other heavyweights.

I doubt those matchups are actually good for Jigglypuff, really. And, to be honest with you, if she actually wins those and just those, what's the point? You're not a good character if you only can beat around 5 characters solidly.

Heavyweights seem like a bad matchup for puff. heavyweights normally have large hitboxes, which can ouspace jiggs. All they need is a few lucky hits to beat a Jigglypuff with how early she dies.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

Nah, best aerial mobility is probably Yoshi. Faster on all fronts and Egg Throw lets him stay in the air almost as long.

Jiggly's smashes are bad, they're very laggy and have terrible range. Power is the only decent thing about them (or the semi-spike on dsmash).

No. Jigglypuff DEFFINATLY has the most airal mobility. 6 jumps + floaty + amazing movement in the air = best airial mobility

Heavyweights seem like a bad matchup for puff. heavyweights normally have large hitboxes, which can ouspace jiggs. All they need is a few lucky hits to beat a Jigglypuff with how early she dies.

You are somewhat right. Heavy weights are easy to combo it to rest. REALLY easy. and uptilt and up air usually lead to massive 0 to 50% combos. After that all I need to do it capm till the **** up and do fair to rest to kill them


(How do I merge my commens? This wasn't ment to be seperate)

 

[Rashyboy05]

Shiek

How does Jiggs win against Shiek? Crouching?

Rosalina and Luma
Sonic
There might be more. I haven't faced enough good ZZS's to be sure about that matchup but it might also be in jiggs favor because of how light she is.

Explain how does she win against these match ups because if these were the case then Jiggs should be beating top tiers in tournaments but there are no tournament results that reflect that "fact". Not a single Jigglypuff has made it into Top 32 in any major tournament. Results>Theorycraft.

Also, since Jiggs is the lightest character in the game then wouldn't it be a case against Jigglypuff since it allows anyone to kill her easily?

If puff can combo you, then you basicly have a bad situation.

This can literally be said about any character ever. "If MK can combo you, then you're in a bad situation" "If ZSS can combo you, then you're in a bad situation". "If Ryu can combo you, then you're in bad situation" And what are the combo set ups that Jigglypuff has that is noteworthy?

Also, have you read the forum rules? Double posting is not allowed. And you double posted TWICE

 

[420quickscoper]

Are you joking? She has the best arial mobility in the GAME. She has by far the best air game I have seen from any character. She is basicly an ariel little mac, except with ok smash attacks.

You don't know my character at all. You basicly got on here and just started talking trash about my main. She gimps sonic because his recovery is linnear and his attack patterns aren't really made to deal with her. Shiek has been known to struggle with jigglypuff. Rosalina and Luma are easy combo food. Mewtwo is easy combo food Palutaina has the shiek situation where her projectlie doesn't really help agianst puff and is easy combo food. If puff can combo you, then you basicly have a bad situation.


Actually no, tat's not what we are doing. It is litterally hard to combo jigglypuff when she gets above 80%.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. So sorry.

But let me say some things.

Like meleebrawler said, Jigglypuff's smash attacks are terrible. They have way too much lag. And even then, they're not even very powerful. Down smash doesn't kill, up smash is a lot worse than Mario's and Luigi's. Forward smash is ... okay. It's nothing to write home about.

Jigglypuff is absolutely no Aerial Little Mac. An Aerial Little Mac would be better than what Jigglypuff is. Let me take this all in.

-Jigglypuff has overall good aerials, but bad specials (except for Rest, maybe Pound). She doesn't have good smash attacks.
-Little Mac has fantastic tilts, and he possesses kind of.. overpowered smash attacks, really.

-Yoshi has the best air mobility in the game. Not Jigglypuff.
-Well, I'm saying Jigglypuff doesn't have the best air game because she doesn't have the best aerials, really. Forward air and back air are good, so is neutral air, down air is fine, up air is kind of lackluster. There are characters with better aerials.

Also, for your matchups that you're saying is positive, is kind of reminding me of a little something. You're saying Jigglypuff wins against these people just for one reason. One. Sometimes two.

"Sheik has been known to struggle with Jigglypuff." And why? You just said that without any evidence. If she really did do so well against Sheik, wouldn't Jiggs be a popular counter pick to Sheik?

Then you kind of trash my main as well, saying Rosalina and Luma and Mewtwo are combo food yet you give absolutely nothing else. Sure, I get it, they're combo food. But do you realize that both those characters have better combo power than Jigglypuff? Yes. Even Mewtwo. And I know that.

Then you say Palutena is easy combo food, and once again don't explain anything else.

This reminds me of when people say "This character wins the matchup because Mewtwo is light and is combo food." and don't say anything else. Nobody takes in the fact that Mewtwo has the power to do things in certain matchups. Just saying he loses just by those two things is a bad mindset.

And before you say that I know "nothing about your main" then think again. By saying she has the greatest air mobility and the best air game in the game, I don't know if you're that knowledgeable about her or not. If you know so much about here, then stop saying false things like that she has the best air game and the best air speed. She doesn't. We know that she has a good air game, but not the best. Top 10? Maybe. I dunno. But there are a lot of characters with better aerials. Mario is one good example, and he has great air speed. So all this doesn't matter. Jigglypuff is clearly outclassed by many other characters just like Mario. I really cannot find a reason to play Jigglypuff in a tournament and expect to win, because you clearly won't win. Jigglypuff's matchup spread is absolutely horrendous, man. She loses to basically more than half the cast. And if you have to worry about that many matchups, it's an absolute huge problem. I'm not saying you shouldn't play Puff, that's alright and I don't mind. But if you expect him to be a mid-high character then there's some faults. How can you be a mid high character when you have SO many matchups that are just in the other character's favor?

Jigglypuff's matchup spread is like the opposite of Sheik. Sheik basically wins against everyone, and doesn't exactly have an actual "bad" matchup. But Jigglypuff basically loses to everyone. Not really. But what I'm saying is that you don't have a matchup that you can constantly and easily win. That's a problem, you do know that, right? I'm sure she'll go even with some characters, but many of her matchups will be around (in opponent's favor) 45:55 and 40:60.

She'll go 50:50 with some. Maybe even have a few positive matchups, like you said. But what I mean by positive is just, kind of like a... 55:45, really. Your opponent can still win it almost as easily as you can.

Once again, I'm not deriving you from playing this character. If we're being serious about, in like, a tournament scene, there is no reason to pick Jigglypuff over other characters, really. Jigglypuff was meant to have the best air game, but she obviously doesn't have it.

Another problem is that Jigglypuff has been out as long as every other character and her position in the metagame has not really changed. What I'm saying is that this character does not really have the potential to be a good character. It sucks, I know. A lot of characters that are said "low tier" have potential. Mewtwo, for example, can be a confirmed mid tier one day when people actually open their eyes and see the tools that he possesses. That might not happen, but it might.

Jigglypuff is already a Bottom 5 character. She hasn't really got many significant buffs, maybe the Pound shield break, but I dunno. And she probably won't get any significant buffs at all. Maybe one day. Maybe one day. We'll see. But as every other "low tier" character is getting better, Jigglypuff is simply just going down the metagame slowly. As if she wasn't bad enough already, she may become the game's worst character, or the second worst character.

In short, it's not a good idea to pick Puff at all if you're being serious about a tournament. As of now, she has basically no results in a major tournament. It's obvious why. And if she isn't buffed, she will pretty much stay in the drought of the metagame. She can't stop a Groudon (aka she can't go up the metagame well). She'll just stay dying in the drought. Jigglypuff is already pretty much dead, and that dead horse is just being beaten more. For about 8 years now, from the release of Super Smash Bros Brawl to the present time, almost 2016, Jigglypuff has been pretty much dead. Maybe one day she'll go straight up the tier list. Who knows? But for now I can't see it happening.

That's all I have to say. Jigglypuff is dead in the metagame.

 

[Luco]

No. Jigglypuff DEFFINATLY has the most airal mobility. 6 jumps + floaty + amazing movement in the air = best airial mobility

Actually, aerial mobility is made up of a combination of factors including acceleration, deceleration, fast falling and more. Jiggs can stay in the air for a long time but this does not mean she has the best mobility.

 

[Deleted member]

I hardly ever let myself get killed at 80%. That's why it matters. If someone like sheik is trying to upair you you can escape and not die. THAT'S why it matters.

Sheik's multi-hit Up-air is just one multi that can kill Jiggs among a long long list of other moves in the game that can rather easily take Jiggs' stock at 80% without having to worry about her SDIing out because they are single hit moves.

As adom4 said, Jiggs "comboability" at 80% doesn't really matter because that's her death percent.

It doesn't matter whether or not you "let yourself die" at that percent, the fact of the matter is that if you get hit period around that percent (unless you're able to SDI out of multi hit moves) it could very easily mean death for Jiggs depending on the knockback of the move.

------------

It seems to me as if you're letting your "main bias" cloud your judgment in this situation, a lot of your responses seem rather emotionally-influenced as a result of this "main bias" instead of taking into account tangible factors that put Jiggs at a serious disadvantage.

If you want to make a believable claim about Jiggs' capabilities you're going to need to provide more than the rather limited and frankly insufficiently supported reasons you've provided thus far.

Also please stop double posting, just use the edit button which is located underneath your post.

 

[meleebrawler]

The main thing Jigglypuff has going for her in any matchup is that if the opponent is VERY impatient, she can be a really annoying opponent as actually getting opportunities to hit her can take a while, so people try to force them only to be knocked on their rear. Rinse, repeat. But if they are patient enough they can just poke away to get her to death percent without worrying too much about trades.

This way of playing kind of reminds me of Dedede, except he is very difficult to trade with and has enough bulk to tank them anyway, especially with being the most difficult character to kill off the top hands down in a meta with tons of great vertical kill moves.

 

[420quickscoper]

The main thing Jigglypuff has going for her in any matchup is that if the opponent is VERY impatient, she can be a really annoying opponent as actually getting opportunities to hit her can take a while, so people try to force them only to be knocked on their rear. Rinse, repeat. But if they are patient enough they can just poke away to get her to death percent without worrying too much about trades.

This way of playing kind of reminds me of Dedede, except he is very difficult to trade with and has enough bulk to tank them anyway, especially with being the most difficult character to kill off the top hands down in a meta with tons of great vertical kill moves.

I'm gonna be honest, I kind of think Jigglypuff probably has the worst matchup spread in the game. It's definitely possible. Her flaws are more exploitable than Mewtwo's. A lot more exploitable. That's a big problem.

Not to mention Mewtwo has about a hundred more tools than Jigglypuff.

 

[Locke 06]

Combo escapability is a valuable asset, even when you get killed at a low %. How many times do you get into the situation of "if I can live past this kill setup, I will live until 200?" The way knockback works is not as simple as saying, "This character is lighter, so combos just work earlier."

The % range for your kill setups, one of the qualities of many strong characters, is much more narrow vs Puff. Raw kills at that % are more difficult and also much more committal, which leads to rest.

And stop treating rest like a bad move. Yes, it has a chance of allowing your opponent a free hit afterwards. But how many characters would like to have a f2 hard read/punish move that you can do in the air? You can say "space" and "safe on block" but you know what's scary? Whiff punishing.

Competitively, imo, puff suffers like Zelda in that it's hard to play the high risk high reward game all the way through bracket. That's why when puff does well in a smash game, she has combos or setups into rest that are somewhat easy. She may not have the disjointed pound she used to have, but characters are generally toned down and aerial airdodge (lol) is better. Airdodge>rest can punish many spaced aerials on prediction. Same with airdodge>NAir.

Good morning. I'm off to dropzone. Go watch as it will feature just about everyone in the NW region worth talking about except Cacogen who's down in Cali. Also great Melee and PM. #shamelessplug

 

[Dre89]

You are somewhat right. Heavy weights are easy to combo it to rest. REALLY easy. and uptilt and up air usually lead to massive 0 to 50% combos. After that all I need to do it capm till the **** up and do fair to rest to kill them


(How do I merge my commens? This wasn't ment to be seperate)

She definitely loses to DK. She can't really deal with bair and utilt. He kills her super early with a grab, and even if he doesn't uair is frame 6 so it could kill her in open play anyway. Utilt kills early too. He can even gimp her because although she has mobility and jumps he just has to read one movement and she dies offstage to bair.

She'd do better against Bowser but I feel like he could just trade with AC bairs. It's frame 9, does 19% and kills early.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bowser destroys Jigglypuff. lol

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm not sure if other Mario mains think so, but I don't think Mario doesn't require a lot of time to use to his fullest potential. Reads are important for this character because of his one glaring flaw, he struggles to kill unless he lands an U-smash. He can't kill you in the air unless it's like ultra high percents raged SJP or U-air, or rage ledge trump B-air.

I have seen Ally letting people live to like, 170% before he can utilize a SUPER JUMP PUNCH to kill (If y'all are curious, look at Ally vs Mr. R). This may be not be much of a problem in mid level play, where people still run into random U-smashes. But when fighting against people who wall you out and stay away from smashes, Mario's life get significantly harder.

The same goes for Luigi, actually. His D-throw combos are not as obvious as before (Whereas pre-patch you could double F-air for a regrab and then kill them at 110% guaranteed with D-throw B-air) and his most reliable killing setups were either greatly weakened (HooHahNado) or erased almost completely (D-throw B-air). Reads are more important to him than ever, because his mobility sucks and U-smash doesn't kill as well as Mario's when DI'd. He gets walled out a lot more than his bro (Who has an actual reflector. Here we have a garbage missile as our Side-B) and life is hard when something like Samus' Charge Shot and Z-air can actually give you a lot of trouble.

Doesn't help that this character's neutral is absolutely inconsistent. Luigi's neutral and approach options depends almost entirely on 'Can you deal with Fireballs?' or 'Can you deal with his SH spaced F-airs and B-airs?'.

Also, on the Jiggly discussion, I usually hear stuffs like 'she can escape combos so it's one of her advantage'. I have always questioned the legit-ness of this statement, as if you are the lightest character in the game, two hit and that may equal to a four or five hits in a normal weighted character already.

I mean, I don't care if you escape my combos. You die so early to my attacks that it doesn't even matter in the long run.

You pretty much nailed it with Mario. And this is one of the primary reasons I don't think he's Top 5. Not only does he have trouble killing and no reliable kill setups, but his range also sucks. I thoroughly believe that the day people get better at fighting him is the day I would consider pushing him out of the Top 10. Same could apply to Luigi and Top 15 (possibly going as far as Top 20).

 

[Dre89]

Bowser destroys Jigglypuff. lol

Could you explain why?

I don't really know how the MU plays out.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Results>Theorycraft.

I think you should change results to "outcome of high level matches". Straight-up viewing results and not analyzing matches won't get you anywhere.

 

[meleebrawler]

Combo escapability is a valuable asset, even when you get killed at a low %. How many times do you get into the situation of "if I can live past this kill setup, I will live until 200?" The way knockback works is not as simple as saying, "This character is lighter, so combos just work earlier."

The % range for your kill setups, one of the qualities of many strong characters, is much more narrow vs Puff. Raw kills at that % are more difficult and also much more committal, which leads to rest.

And stop treating rest like a bad move. Yes, it has a chance of allowing your opponent a free hit afterwards. But how many characters would like to have a f2 hard read/punish move that you can do in the air? You can say "space" and "safe on block" but you know what's scary? Whiff punishing.

Competitively, imo, puff suffers like Zelda in that it's hard to play the high risk high reward game all the way through bracket. That's why when puff does well in a smash game, she has combos or setups into rest that are somewhat easy. She may not have the disjointed pound she used to have, but characters are generally toned down and aerial airdodge (lol) is better. Airdodge>rest can punish many spaced aerials on prediction. Same with airdodge>NAir.

Good morning. I'm off to dropzone. Go watch as it will feature just about everyone in the NW region worth talking about except Cacogen who's down in Cali. Also great Melee and PM. #shamelessplug

Rest whiff punishes are great and all, but their value is diminished a bit when you realize Jiggly's weight turns several non-committal moves into killing ones. It certainly demands a dose of respect at all times, but unfortunately it's perfectly possible for many characters to beat her by never committing.

 

[Drarky]

Could you explain why?

I don't really know how the MU plays out.

I'll make it short.

Huge hitboxes vs small hitboxes.

Heavyweight vs Lightweight.

Jiggs can make like what, 2 mistakes? And then she's at kill percent/dead already.

Learned that the bad way.

 

[420quickscoper]

Bowser destroys Jigglypuff. lol

You're right about that. Especially Bowser Bomb. Finding Jiggs shielding next to you could mean certain death.

Rest whiff punishes are great and all, but their value is diminished a bit when you realize Jiggly's weight turns several non-committal moves into killing ones. It certainly demands a dose of respect at all times, but unfortunately it's perfectly possible for many characters to beat her by never committing.

So what you're saying, is that if people don't play how Jiggs wants to play, she gets beat?

 

[Jamurai]

A Bowser aerial or anti-air trading with a Puff aerial is like 2:1 at least in Bowser's favour every time. That's bad news when Bowser also has twice the survivability of Puff.

By the way I used to think and say Bowser was the worst in the game but I realise my error now. Puff is terrible and Bowser does have more redeeming qualities than I originally thought. Still an unfortunate character though.