Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[meleebrawler]

So what you're saying, is that if people don't play how Jiggs wants to play, she gets beat?

(whoops double post)

She generally has to outplay her opponents by a significant margin, yes.

It takes a certain mindset to fight Jiggly without getting significantly punished, but top level players can manage that well enough.

 

[420quickscoper]

She generally has to outplay her opponents by a significant margin, yes.

It takes a certain mindset to fight Jiggly without getting significantly punished, but top level players can manage that well enough.

Well. At the top level, Jigglypuff is pretty much dead anyways.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Explain how does she win against these match ups because if these were the case then Jiggs should be beating top tiers in tournaments but there are no tournament results that reflect that "fact". Not a single Jigglypuff has made it into Top 32 in any major tournament. Results>Theorycraft.

Um, a Jigglypuff player got 17th at Smashcon. Do your research. I'm not saying Jiggs is good but don't spread false information.

 

[420quickscoper]

Um, a Jigglypuff player got 17th at Smashcon. Do your research. I'm not saying Jiggs is good but don't spread false information.

Is there a video of that?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Is there a video of that?

I don't think there are any VODs of him at Smash Con specifically but you can google "BrianYDG Jigglypuff" (BrianYDG is his tag) and you can find more tournament matches of him from locals and stuff.

 

[420quickscoper]

I don't think there are any VODs of him at Smash Con specifically but you can google "BrianYDG Jigglypuff" (BrianYDG is his tag) and you can find more tournament matches of him from locals and stuff.

Honestly he doesn't seem very good.

 

[Sceptile4Smash]

Pardon my intrusion but this place could be exactly what I was looking for. I suppose I have to introduce myself.
I'm a Sonic main trying to be the very best like no one ever was. lol but seriously, I want to learn more about Sonic's place in the meta, tips, matchups, etc. Same with Greninja, my secondary.

The topic right now seems to be Jigglypuff. I'm no puff player so I guess I have to sit this one out.

 

[naegi]

it's worth noting that serynder, the best puff player in his own words (which isnt saying much because hes never reached top 8 at xanadu before but he was ranked like 3rd in oregon or something) claims he's discovered some sort of broken setup that "involves d-air and shieldbreak" and has yet to showcase it to the world.
also he did find this pre-patch so i can only assume it was made stronger from shieldstun changes.

on a less positive note, does jiggs win any match-ups.. at all? most of her matchups seem extremely volatile due to gimps/dying at 60 (little mac, ness). even zelda has things going for her and probably winning/even MUs and jigglypuff just has.. nothing.

 

[Nobie]

Combo escapability is a valuable asset, even when you get killed at a low %. How many times do you get into the situation of "if I can live past this kill setup, I will live until 200?" The way knockback works is not as simple as saying, "This character is lighter, so combos just work earlier."

The % range for your kill setups, one of the qualities of many strong characters, is much more narrow vs Puff. Raw kills at that % are more difficult and also much more committal, which leads to rest.

And stop treating rest like a bad move. Yes, it has a chance of allowing your opponent a free hit afterwards. But how many characters would like to have a f2 hard read/punish move that you can do in the air? You can say "space" and "safe on block" but you know what's scary? Whiff punishing.

Competitively, imo, puff suffers like Zelda in that it's hard to play the high risk high reward game all the way through bracket. That's why when puff does well in a smash game, she has combos or setups into rest that are somewhat easy. She may not have the disjointed pound she used to have, but characters are generally toned down and aerial airdodge (lol) is better. Airdodge>rest can punish many spaced aerials on prediction. Same with airdodge>NAir.

Good morning. I'm off to dropzone. Go watch as it will feature just about everyone in the NW region worth talking about except Cacogen who's down in Cali. Also great Melee and PM. #shamelessplug

Hungrybox once said, when asked if it's scary using Rest, that he doesn't Rest unless he thinks he's guaranteed to hit it 100%.

I don't think Puff wins against Sheik, Rosalina, or Sonic for that matter. If her matchup spread was THAT good we'd be seeing more from her, unless mid-tier Swordsland keeps her completely at bay. However, Puff does have game plans against those characters, and as others have mentioned, lingering nair can be hell for Rosalina. On the other hand, Luma is a pain for Jiggs to get through.

I don't use Jigglypuff extensively, but from what little I've tried I really like her style. I find her jab to be strangely underrated (then again, I've not discussed her jab with anyone who has actually tried to rate it).

Also, fight on, my brother. Actually, are you using Mega Man for this?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Honestly he doesn't seem very good.

Brian's actually a fairly skilled player on a local/maybe regional level, he can stand up to many of our region's (MD/VA) PR players. But he's almost completely dropped Jiggs, I think these days he plays a lot of Pit and Bowser Jr.

Last I heard him talk about Jiggs he said he would only use her in certain match-ups. He seems to like using her against Fox players for some reason. I'll have to ask him about it next time I get to talk with him.

 

[bc1910]

We're not actually giving serious discussion to that MU spread that was posted, are we? If Jigglypuff beat Sheik, Sonic and ZSS she'd be top tier.

Anyway, you can probably put me in the "Jigglypuff is bottom 5" camp. I'm reluctant to say it, but I think my frustrations with fighting her come from how annoying she is, not with how good she is. Again it comes down to trying to name 5 characters worse than Jigglypuff. I actually can't say with 100% confidence that anyone is worse, though Zelda and Palutena are close-ish.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

werent most of these in customs?

None of those DK top placements were customs, not even M2K's 3rd place. Ibuypower was last week, even.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I don't think there are any VODs of him at Smash Con specifically but you can google "BrianYDG Jigglypuff" (BrianYDG is his tag) and you can find more tournament matches of him from locals and stuff.

I can only assume he only used Jiggs as a secondary.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I can only assume he only used Jiggs as a secondary.

I think he might've went all Jiggs, or at least mostly Jiggs in that tournament. If I can't find anything through facebook I'll have to ask him about it tomorrow.

EDIT: The results here on Smashboards says he used Pit, Bowser Jr, and Lucario as well but iirc he was mainly using Jigglypuff that week.

 

[Mario766]

Let's be real. When the best player for a character literally has zero results in a free region...


It either means the character is not usable in tournament or isn't played at all because it's terrible

 

[Big-Cat]

A Bowser aerial or anti-air trading with a Puff aerial is like 2:1 at least in Bowser's favour every time. That's bad news when Bowser also has twice the survivability of Puff.

By the way I used to think and say Bowser was the worst in the game but I realise my error now. Puff is terrible and Bowser does have more redeeming qualities than I originally thought. Still an unfortunate character though.

Bowser's main weaknesses, not taking his archetype into account as that deliberately has strengths and weaknesses, are his issues with landing and that his teching is unsafe where faster characters can't run up and punish him for it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Let's be real. When the best player for a character literally has zero results in a free region...


It either means the character is not usable in tournament or isn't played at all because it's terrible

Serynder's results are merely just unimportant. By zero results, I assume you mean at least Top 8 at a regional.

 

[Ffamran]

It probably has to do with the fact that she doesn't extend her leg until she's attacking with it, and doesn't leave it extended afterward. Her leg isn't invincible, and as far as I can tell her bair has no disjoint in this game.

Best part about looking at animations.

Probably the same in Brawl and Smash 4; Jiggles, after kicking, spins back to a neutral pose. Similarly, Fox and ZSS return to neutral with Bair. With whip kicks, they really do use momentum to whip their legs out and that has an added bonus of the momentum returning them to a neutral pose. In contrast, Samus's doesn't since she does a back kick, a linear kick, with pretty much no way for her to spin back - all she can do is try to retract her leg as fast as possible and if you don't make contact, in real life, you won't have a "stopping point" to use to "pull"/push back your leg.

This can be applied to other stuff like Captain Falcon's jab vs. Falco's or looking at the similarities between Peach and Sheik's Fair. At the same time, weird hurtbox and hitbox interactions like on say, Samus's Ftilt, is another story...

 

[Big-Cat]

I just want to vent this out, but I'm learning DHD and I swear Sheik kills that matchup in For Glory unless I'm doing something wrong and/or lag which Sheik thrives in.

 

[Illuminose]

I just want to vent this out, but I'm learning DHD and I swear Sheik kills that matchup in For Glory unless I'm doing something wrong and/or lag which Sheik thrives in.

sheik is utterly awful in significant lag. definitely one of those characters that is significantly better offline.

 

[Thinkaman]

Quick thought regarding DK: DK has historically preformed better without customs than with, even in environments where there he is just fighting the same 1111 Sheiks, Diddys, and whoever.

Someone already pointed out that Kong Cyclone is actually worse than Spinning Kong at the highest levels of play, which I wouldn't have fully bought before the cargo throw patch (and the low-% huge damage up-b combos that this brought to many matchups) but is very likely true now.

Custom DK is almost has to be a somewhat better character in cast-relative terms (benefits more from customs, "moves up"), but the delta is smaller than performance variability.


The real, true biggest winners of customs are still, in order:
True Winners:
Significantly Better:
Addresses Cripping Weakness Tier:
Litnus Test Tier:



Pikachu is the "gatekeeper" in the context of customs affecting viability/rank. Not DK, not Rosalina, not Villager--100% Pikachu. "Would I rather fight Pikachu with customs on or off?" Everyone on this list would say "absolutely."

should be obvious.
is almost as good though. Jumbo Hoops fixes a lot of her "problems", and lag-less Weighted Headers give her an offensive game. Seriously, just go rapid-fire a bunch of lag-less Weighted Headers, almost no one knows how incredible this is. I would trade literally any side-b in the game for this move.
ZZS is the best custom in the game. You probably can't understand this until you've played against someone who can use it, but it's comparable to the difference for Rosalina with and without Luma. It's literally fighting two characters.
Dark Fists is the best Counter in the game and redefines Ganon. Wizard's Dropkick salvages several of Ganon's worst matchups, such as Rosalina.
Just gets a lot of comprehensively good MU-specific options and recovery buffs.
is somewhat invalidated in many MUs/stages by timeout rules and minimal recovery choices. Grounding Blow is not a great move and not even worth taking in all situations, but addresses these two key fatal flaws just enough for him to bypass them and become viable in the general environment. As Mac, I would 100% prefer to fight customs-on in every matchup except the above 5 characters.
gets d-throw to Shocking Cape. Nothing else actually matters (Gust Cape sucks, up-b 3 is a novelty), though I guess Fast Fireballs are worth considering in many matchups.
Twisting Fox is just a stupid OoS/ledge-coverage option. Very high risk offset by extremely high reward.
Crescent Slash is just a really, really good kill option.
gets his up-b fixed with Upper Cutter. his other customs are legit options, but don't really fix him as tenth as much as having a great up-b does.
has overrated customs but still pretty good. Dragon Rush is very useful, but the option to take f1 armor'd Rock Hurl is also important.
Dash Slash is one of the most legitimately beneficial customs in the game, sort of like Grounding Blow on Mac. Giving Bowser a source of burst mobility is a game-changer in most of his matchups.
I see listed as having terrible customs, and it blows my mind. Grounding Blow is a f1 armor'd move that sets up the up-b combo at kill %s; like with Rock Hurl, I don't think people appreciate how much MUs change when you introduce a f1 super armor option onto the table--every single pseudo-combo in the game becomes escapable. Then you've got those 15% damage Giant Mechakoopas; normal Mechakoopas are great, but a Link Bomb that does 15%? 15%!
gets his dumb super counter + Advancing Air Slash + cool Monado alternatives, but is still Shulk. *shrug*

gets Heavy Skull Bash, which is a really terrific move for recovering, punishing air dodges, and losing EVO. He also gets a really spooky projectile option in Thunder Wave.

I can buy that don't want to fight Pikachu in particular with customs (based on my limited understanding of their MUs with Pika), but would still "move up" overall. Rose-Scented Waft is a stupid move against anyone with a less-than-incredible recovery, and MM/Samus/DK have by far the biggest variety of viable options for various matchups.

and would almost certainly be next. Hammer Spin Dash is infuriating, and ROB's fast up-b is a big deal for his kill possibilities.

Then you'd have a selection of characters with noteworthy MU-specific options like (Speed Thunder), (Reflector Void), (mostly Meteor Trampoline).

Finally, you get to and , who are the true gatekeepers. Rosalina basically despises customs against anyone mentioned above (especially the top 3), and loves them against anyone else. Villager gets EBT, which despite the nerfs is still a solid measuring stick for for valuable a custom is to someone.

Close-but-no-cigar awards go to , , and .


And here I meant to only say something about DK. Oops.

 

[FullMoon]

gets Heavy Skull Bash, which is a really terrific move for recovering, punishing air dodges, and losing EVO.

Liked just for this part

I remember when Shifting Shuriken was a really good custom for Greninja, but now regular shuriken is just much better since SS didn't get the start-up buff.

 

[Mario766]

Customs Ike isn't much better than no customs Ike now. Tempest is very mu dependant, where unless you can edgeguard with Eruption well you take for the slight hover. Close Combat makes his recovery worse and makes us less safe because no auto cancel. Aether is the best up b fir him and both counters aren't very good.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

gets d-throw to Shocking Cape. Nothing else actually matters (Gust Cape sucks, up-b 3 is a novelty), though I guess Fast Fireballs are worth considering in many matchups.

Scalding FLUDD gives Mario a pseudo-projectile and a tool to force approaches alongside Fast Fireball. It also takes less time to charge than the normal FLUDD. I cannot believe you would just brush that off.

I'll leave the rest to A2ZOMG since he knows more about Mario's customs than I do.

I also find it ironic that Up B 3 (which I'm pretty sure is Explosive Jump Punch) was once obligated by Mario mains due to his (at the time) perceived mediocrity and huge trouble killing. It gave him a legit kill confirm out of down throw, and it could be used as a powerful OoS option much like Doc's Up B.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I see listed as having terrible customs, and it blows my mind. Grounding Blow is a f1 armor'd move that sets up the up-b combo at kill %s; like with Rock Hurl, I don't think people appreciate how much MUs change when you introduce a f1 super armor option onto the table--every single pseudo-combo in the game becomes escapable. Then you've got those 15% damage Giant Mechakoopas; normal Mechakoopas are great, but a Link Bomb that does 15%? 15%!

I'm pretty sure you don't mean Grounding Blow, but instead whatever his burying kart special is called.

For Ganondorf vs. Rosalina in particular he also really likes Flame Chain since Luma basically invalidates Choke/Wave.

 

[Thinkaman]

Customs Ike isn't much better than no customs Ike now. Tempest is very mu dependant, where unless you can edgeguard with Eruption well you take for the slight hover. Close Combat makes his recovery worse and makes us less safe because no auto cancel. Aether is the best up b fir him and both counters aren't very good.

Ike is admittedly one of the characters I understand the least. Close Combat has just always seemed like a huge deal for him though, and virtually every kill I get on Ike I find myself thinking "man, he wouldn't have died if he had diagonal up-b."

Scalding FLUDD gives Mario a pseudo-projectile and a tool to force approaches alongside Fast Fireball. It also takes less time to charge than the normal FLUDD. I cannot believe you would just brush that off.

I'll leave the rest to A2ZOMG since he knows more about Mario's customs than I do.

I also find it ironic that Up B 3 (which I'm pretty sure is Explosive Jump Punch) was once obligated by Mario mains due to his (at the time) perceived mediocrity and huge trouble killing. It gave him a legit kill confirm out of down throw, and it could be used as a powerful OoS option much like Doc's Up B.

Oh yeah, I'm stupid. Scalding FLUDD is a pretty big deal. I had it in mind when placing those characters, but forgot it in my explanation.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Custom Mario literally never needs to approach when he can wall and camp with Scalding FLUDD and Fast Fireballs. Scalding FLUDD is Sheik Needles, but covers air options better and is more explicitly favorable on shield.

Gust Cape is good in some matchups for the superior stalling to avoid juggles, EJP has some combo utility as well and pairs well with Gust Cape.

Custom Mario is easily the best character in the game imo. Can camp and wall and KO confirm everyone out of grab. Only loses slightly to DK. Beats everything else.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Custom Mario literally never needs to approach when he can wall and camp with Scalding FLUDD and Fast Fireballs. Scalding FLUDD is Sheik Needles, but covers air options better and is more explicitly favorable on shield.

Gust Cape is good in some matchups for the superior stalling to avoid juggles, EJP has some combo utility as well and pairs well with Gust Cape.

Custom Mario is easily the best character in the game imo. Can camp and wall and KO confirm everyone out of grab. Only loses slightly to DK. Beats everything else.

Could you really make a case that he beats Rosa or Sheik (his two worst MUs)? And why?

 

[meleebrawler]

Could you really make a case that he beats Rosa or Sheik (his two worst MUs)? And why?

I'd think Scalding FLUDD + Fast Fireballs go a long way to overcoming range issues, plus aerial Shocking Cape kills.

 

[adom4]

I'm pretty sure you don't mean Grounding Blow, but instead whatever his burying kart special is called.

For Ganondorf vs. Rosalina in particular he also really likes Flame Chain since Luma basically invalidates Choke/Wave.

Flame chain sucks, it's not good vs anyone.
Flame wave is actually pretty good against her, Ganon really needs something to threaten her shield & wave does just that + it murders Luma along the way.

 

[Wintropy]

Flame chain sucks, it's not good vs anyone.
Flame wave is actually pretty good against her, Ganon really needs something to threaten her shield & wave does just that + it murders Luma along the way.

Now that's interesting, I was under the impression that Chain had its matchup uses, i.e. dashing right through to hit Rosie.

If I may ask (because I've never tried it beyond a brief test of every one of his customs), what practical benefit does Wave have in itself? I just thought of it as "Flame Choke that kills", but I take it the explosion is a useful contingency?

EDIT: Thinkaman makes a good point that kinda confirms what I suspected. Do you mean it the other way 'round?

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm pretty sure you don't mean Grounding Blow, but instead whatever his burying kart special is called.

Oops, yeah.

Flame chain sucks, it's not good vs anyone.
Flame wave is actually pretty good against her, Ganon really needs something to threaten her shield & wave does just that + it murders Luma along the way.

Uh, huh? You lost me, to the point where I suspect you have the names backwards.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Could you really make a case that he beats Rosa or Sheik (his two worst MUs)? And why?

Shocking Cape also can kill Luma pretty easily iirc. Combine with Fast Fireballs being better for zoning vs Rosa and the grab KO confirm potential, yeah. Normally Mario needs Bthrow to kill Luma and Shocking Cape is both pretty beefy and disjointed, which helps a lot.

Mario vs Sheik is kinda like prepatch Diddy vs Sheik. The reliable reward is high enough to the point that Sheik can't really keep up, and the ability to straight up beat Sheik's attacks with custom specials is huge.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Flame chain sucks, it's not good vs anyone.
Flame wave is actually pretty good against her, Ganon really needs something to threaten her shield & wave does just that + it murders Luma along the way.

I'm going to need a more detailed explanation. Luma can bop Ganondorf out of Flame Choke and Flame Wave basically for free. Flame Chain a) has a hitbox to challenge Luma, b) drags Luma away and possibly offstage if Rosalina is vaguely close to the ledge, and c) doesn't stop on shield and can crossup for whatever that's worth. (I'm pretty sure it can crossup...) In exchange, he loses...Ganoncide?

 

[adom4]

Now that's interesting, I was under the impression that Chain had its matchup uses, i.e. dashing right through to hit Rosie.

If I may ask (because I've never tried it beyond a brief test of every one of his customs), what practical benefit does Wave have in itself? I just thought of it as "Flame Choke that kills", but I take it the explosion is a useful contingency?

EDIT: Thinkaman makes a good point that kinda confirms what I suspected. Do you mean it the other way 'round?

Oops, yeah.



Uh, huh? You lost me, to the point where I suspect you have the names backwards.

Again it gives Ganon something on her shield & it kills her super early + Luma along the way.
Flame chain is way too unsafe on shield, the long startup & endlag make the move much less useful if you know how to play against it.
I've tried flame chain & wave against her & wave always produced better results, chain is just a poor move in general.

I'm going to need a more detailed explanation. Luma can bop Ganondorf out of Flame Choke and Flame Wave basically for free. Flame Chain a) has a hitbox to challenge Luma and b) drags Luma away and possibly offstage if Rosalina is vaguely close to the ledge. In exchange, he loses...Ganoncide?

Luma can't do jack to flame wave, Ganon armors Luma during it & the explosion knocks it away unlike choke.
Also i think Luma can clank with it, it's just not worth the endlag, it's so ****ing bad against shields.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So I wanna make a post about...

There was a reason I dropped this character in Smash 4, despite maining her in Brawl. People kept saying she got buffs. But she really didn't. I hate how she feels in this game. Even as somebody who is supposed to be the Jigglymaster. I can't touch this pile of garbage until they make her playable.

"B-air got better!"
Yeah, but her f-air in brawl did the same KB and damage but was faster.

Then they nerfed her pound and her rollout which were both unnecessary. Characters are even HARDER to edge guard in this game. Oh and.

"Rest got buffed!"
Hardly. Doesn't even matter when now you get punished for it because of Smash 4's dumb ceiling insta death change instead of a Star KO or a Screen KO. At least she could somewhat confirm into it in Brawl with Drill to rest.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Again it gives Ganon something on her shield & it kills her super early + Luma along the way.
Flame chain is way too unsafe on shield, the long startup & endlag make the move much less useful if you know how to play against it.
I've tried flame chain & wave against her & wave always produced better results, chain is just a poor move in general.


Luma can't do jack to flame wave, Ganon armors Luma during it & the explosion knocks it away unlike choke.

Didn't know Flame Wave had super armor of any sort. I'll have to experiment.

Does the armor apply only once Ganondorf grabs someone?

 

[adom4]

Didn't know Flame Wave had super armor of any sort. I'll have to experiment.

Does the armor apply only once Ganondorf grabs someone?

Yes, during the grab only.
It's not THAT useful against Rosa but it's definitely better than the other 2 options imo, i think flame chain might be the worst one against her.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm surprised nobody said Flame Chain vs. Ryu because Ganon has like, 0 multihitting moves at all to my knowledge that aren't like, Air wizkick depending on situation (aka usually never)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm surprised nobody said Flame Chain vs. Ryu because Ganon has like, 0 multihitting moves at all to my knowledge that aren't like, Air wizkick depending on situation (aka usually never)

Choke/Wave are way better vs armor. Grab > Armor.