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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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Kofu

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Considering how deep Regi had to go to get those explosions, it wasn't so much a fluke on Ranai's part. It was a pretty gutsy play going offstage like he did. You'll see when the VODs go up.

And he took out Ryo.

Smooth Criminal
Thanks for the info. The thing about Lloid Rocket in the matchup is that Villager should be aware that Game & Watch can bucket it and restrict his usage accordingly. Any use past mid stage (so Lloid has more distance to travel) is risky. I still consider it a misplay on Ranai's part for that reason. If Oil Panic didn't have as much lag as it does then going offstage to grab projectiles would be a lot less risky.

I'm more interested in the 3-stock(!) of Ryo since I find the Ike matchup quite difficult (though that could just be inexperience and Wi-Fi).
 

Y2Kay

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Wow. Ranai wrecked Void and Falln like no man's business. This is terrifying.

:150:
 

Das Koopa

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That was pretty close, which surprises me a bit. ZeRo really brought on some steam and he probably would've won a 3v3 exchange, but Ranai wore him down a lot.

Imo, Komokiri, Ranai, and Regi were the strongest looking people in crews today.
 

san.

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Thanks for the info. The thing about Lloid Rocket in the matchup is that Villager should be aware that Game & Watch can bucket it and restrict his usage accordingly. Any use past mid stage (so Lloid has more distance to travel) is risky. I still consider it a misplay on Ranai's part for that reason. If Oil Panic didn't have as much lag as it does then going offstage to grab projectiles would be a lot less risky.

I'm more interested in the 3-stock(!) of Ryo since I find the Ike matchup quite difficult (though that could just be inexperience and Wi-Fi).
I believe it was 2 stocks(?), thought Ryo took a stock. Ike has to punish OoS with attacks like dtilt, but Ryo was constantly getting poked and grabbed. He was also over-baiting with the short hops, which isn't too great against G&W.
 
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UberMadman

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Honestly if Ranai had not taken that second stock off of ZeRo with the bowling ball, I think ZeRo would have beaten Komorikiri. That was the Bowling Ball that saved Japan.
 

Antonykun

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If theres anything this crew battle has taught me is that i have severely underrated Lloid's ability to break momentum
 

Man Li Gi

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I have to say. Lord Japan put on a show. I feel like Mexico could a won the whole thing tho if Leo was there or if IC was placed to fight Sonic early.


To me, I was most impressed with a slightly gimped Mexico than Japan. I wanna see Mexico way more now.
 

Nobie

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Earlier in this thread we talked about character potential and all that, and whether it's worth it or not to main a low tier character.

Opinion on Game & Watch has been all over the place, but he's often seen as some kind of mid to low tier denizen. "He has a bad neutral!" they say. The point I was trying to make with all that talk was simply, we still don't have the whole picture, and anyone who believes our conceptions of characters are locked into place only 15 months into a game have no perspective. I remember when everyone just assumed that Marth was clearly the best character because Ken was just that dominant. Even if characters like G&W might still end up mid tier or worse, we still have so much to learn about them.

As for Japan, they were just a collection of monsters. The issue was that even if you take down their best, as Regi did against Ranai, their 2nd and 3rd best are still ridiculous. Everyone else was the high schools in Kuroko's Basketball and Japan was the Generation of Miracles. Maybe if America got their collective best together they would have the edge.

Watching other VIllagers in pools, or even in the crew battle and comparing them to Ranai was like night and day. He just hands-down knows the character better, and is willing to do "stuff" when most Villagers will retreat and hide.

Also let's talk about Komorikiri's Sonic running up and grabbing Regi's G&W out of F-Smash. WHAT
 
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Kofu

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I believe it was 2 stocks(?), thought Ryo took a stock. Ike has to punish OoS with attacks like dtilt, but Ryo was constantly getting poked and grabbed. He was also over-baiting with the short hops, which isn't too great against G&W.
I figure the MU is workable for both players, I just have next to no experience against competent Ike players. It's only from For Glory, and when it happens it's usually only for one match.
 

UberMadman

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If theres anything this crew battle has taught me is that i have severely underrated Lloid's ability to break momentum
Holy ****, nightmare time: imagine Villager in Brawl. With Lloid breaking.

Thank god Sakurai thought he was too passive to make work.
 

FallofBrawl

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So guys, I think US is the only region that severely underrates Game and Watch. I don't think he's had an issue killing nor do I think he's a "discount" Mario (seriously... huh?)
 

Fatmanonice

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Considering how deep Regi had to go to get those explosions, it wasn't so much a fluke on Ranai's part. It was a pretty gutsy play going offstage like Regi did to get those errant explosions. You'll see when the VODs go up.

And he took out Ryo.

Smooth Criminal
To add to this, Villager's lloid can backfire in weird ways against the PK boys too. I once fought a Lucas who would chase after lloids, wait for the explosion and then heal himself with PSI magnet. Definitely caught me off guard because it restores a huge chunk of health (25-30% I think?). Most people don't think to do this because a lot of people don't think about the explosion at the end if it doesn't hit anything. That guy was probably the best Lucas I ever played, shame I don't remember his (or her) name.
 

Kofu

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So guys, I think US is the only region that severely underrates Game and Watch. I don't think he's had an issue killing nor do I think he's a "discount" Mario (seriously... huh?)
We don't have strong/notable Game & Watch rep which makes judging him hard (no offense to GimR but he's not that great).

Personally I think he's just outside of low tier (however nebulous that may be). I don't think he wins a lot of notable matchups and he loses to a good chunk of the top/high tiers. He also struggles a bit with the heavies (IMO, I'd be curious to see how Songun/Regi feel).
 

MistressRemilia

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Always tried to convince that G&W had neat things.
His matchup spread is among the oddest out of all characters.
He does surprisingly well vs a good amount of charas, and trash vs a few others.
He holds a strong niche & main capabilty that keeps him out of low tier imo.
 

Mili

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We don't have strong/notable Game & Watch rep which makes judging him hard (no offense to GimR but he's not that great).

Personally I think he's just outside of low tier (however nebulous that may be). I don't think he wins a lot of notable matchups and he loses to a good chunk of the top/high tiers. He also struggles a bit with the heavies (IMO, I'd be curious to see how Songun/Regi feel).
Although it is fair that the US as a whole doesn't have a good :4gaw: player, it doesn't seem like a good excuse to me to think the character is bottom-tier (or thought of as 'bad').

We are involved in the "Character Competitive Impressions" thread, not the "Character Competitive Impressions for US players" thread. If we actually want to analyse every character and how good we really think they are, we need to look at them from EVERY perspective, not just one country. Although the US has the biggest scene and it gets a lot of exposure because it is also a fantastic scene, it doesn't mean there can't be exceptions, or very good players in other scenes.

Using a local example to me, Australia doesn't think :4wiifit: is an amazing character but we know she isn't trash-tier because one of our best players, Waveguider, solo-mains her in big tournaments. We can see first-hand how good she can be played and now you guys can too with Rin beating False in Pools. I actually like to keep up with other scenes, so seeing G&W do well in US is not a surprise to me because of guys like Regi and other players (mostly in the Japanese scene). Just because not every scene is as good as America, it doesn't mean that they're not worth analysing or looking at...
 

Mazdamaxsti

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You're theorycrafting pretty fierce and it's not a good look.



Bull****. This is objectively untrue in practice. Jigglypuff dies relative to how strong the opponents KO options are. Frankly, there are some instances where you die at absurd % due to how light it is. As "long as she plays safe" is incredibly vague and hopeful statements, and if you think most KOs are gotten through Smash attacks then you don't have a good grasp of high level play.
How am I theorycrafting? I train with one of the better puff's out there right now and experience it first-hand. Some things kill her unfairly (like shoryu and the ZSS elevator) but overall she's gonna die 20-30% earlier if she gets hit by the same things. Just because you die early, does not mean you can't do a trade.

Want me to expand on playing safe? Okay, do what you would do with every other character to not get hit. Use your good airspeed and jumps to avoid situations and weave through them, for example.

What else would I be theorycrafting about? The pound? No, because that is actually what it does. The 0-death, no, you can test it out if you want. What I said is all true, and just dismissing me because you don't believe it is simply absurd.
 
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Teshie U

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Watching Rin play pretty much assured me that WFT buffs meant nothing. I also felt like custom meant nothing. The best showings for WFT have always been camping, not really abusing jumbo hoops or her recently buffed damage/ko power.

WFT seems designed to be evasive and campy. Chipping you away while healing up and punishing you hard for being overly aggressive.
 

Jamurai

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A few points after day 1:

1. Stream choppiness is usually due to a bad internet connection which is the venue's fault, not the stream's (according to GimR). So don't blame Showdown for that.

2. Regi is way ahead of GimR in terms of G&W proficiency... GimR is kind of far down the list of best G&Ws in the opinions of G&W mains, on the Skype group at least (which is very active and has good players there).

3. @warionumbah2 brought up a good point last night which is: Mexico's good showing so far further accentuate's Leo's credibility as one of the world's best players, despite his absence. Mexico are clearly on a similar level to other powerhouse regions and have very intelligent and skillful players such as Regi and Hyuga. Leo dominates this region, he doesn't lose to anyone and wins everything.

I know I have grumbled about this before but it's seriously sad that he isn't here. Mexico's crew would have been that much stronger and may have given Japan and SoCal a run for their money, and it would be very very interesting to see how he does in a tournament this stacked.
 

Zannabluke

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waymas vs mvd confirmed once again that wario can still win one of his worst match-ups by camping and waiting for waft

he can def be solo-viable
 
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Yikarur

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Because EU sucks at smash 4. How many europeans players beyond Mr r can you name who would be a legitimate threat ... anywhere outside of europe?

:059:
You know that this is not true. Luigi_player, cyve, Sodrek, Semifer ... they all would be legitimate threats outside of europe. Europe just doesn't travel to prove it. But badmouthing isn't helping either.
 

Jamurai

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Speaking of EU players, at least four reps from the UK are through to round 2 pools (Ixis, CRZ, 8va and Cong) as well as Izaw (Sweden) and of course Mr R (Netherlands). It's a shame no one from Germany entered the tournament, would be cool to see cyve, Sodrek etc. in action.

The bracket is not completely updated yet.
 

Flux0r

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I really hope Izaw doesn't opt for Link in both games again, he will only put a handicap on himself.

Especially when dealing with players of the same caliber as StaticManny.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Game is more balanced then we give it credit for. Probably only a handful of chars that really can't do much in tourney at this point.

Tiers do exist. No G&W is not secret high tier or w/e. He just seems very strong cuz we all dump on him. Also how many top players know the match? When someone specializes in a character they can bring them to a level unheard of and one that many top players simply are not ready for.
 

Radical Larry

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I really hope Izaw doesn't opt for Link in both games again, he will only put a handicap on himself.

Especially when dealing with players of the same caliber as StaticManny.
If he wants to opt for Link, he can opt for Link. He might prove people wrong about Link.
 

~ Gheb ~

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G&W still is only a mediocre character. Pikachu, Ike and Villager are all fairly even matchups for him so if Regi is able to outplay his opponents this is not a very surprising outcome. If you really wanna see the holes in G&Ws design watch how he does against Rosalina. Or Diddy Kong. Or ZSS. Or Yoshi. Or Fox. Or ....

You know that this is not true. Luigi_player, cyve, Sodrek, Semifer ... they all would be legitimate threats outside of europe. Europe just doesn't travel to prove it. But badmouthing isn't helping either.
They would do decently in some of the better regions of the US but these are among the only people we can safely assume to be able to do so. Also they all belong to the [extended] german community and I have aknowledge several time that germany is a strong region. Overall Europe just isn't good at smash 4 though, germany walked all over France last time and there aren't many other regions left within europe that have a competent scene. Spain could be good but who knows.

:059:
 

MistressRemilia

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G&W still is only a mediocre character. Pikachu, Ike and Villager are all fairly even matchups for him so if Regi is able to outplay his opponents this is not a very surprising outcome. If you really wanna see the holes in G&Ws design watch how he does against Rosalina. Or Diddy Kong. Or ZSS. Or Yoshi. Or Fox. Or ....



They would do decently in some of the better regions of the US but these are among the only people we can safely assume to be able to do so. Also they all belong to the [extended] german community and I have aknowledge several time that germany is a strong region. Overall Europe just isn't good at smash 4 though, germany walked all over France last time and there aren't many other regions left within europe that have a competent scene. Spain could be good but who knows.

:059:
Half of the matchups you listed are actually decent.
Rosa & Fox are not fun though, Sonic isn't fun either, but Diddy & ZSS are somewhat manageable despite us still losing.
Don't let the terrible footage Gimr gave of the matchup in G3 vs Nairo fool you, it's actually much cleaner than you'd think, just that it is an oddity of a matchup that requires on point precision, a thing that Gimr kind of lacks
No offense to him btw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Luo4ekT6wBo&feature=youtu.be
That little thing is also helpful to the matchup
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Half of the matchups you listed are actually decent.
Rosa & Fox are not fun though, Sonic isn't fun either, but Diddy & ZSS are somewhat manageable despite us still losing.
I've never been one of them people that used to look up to Gimr as the staple of G&W gameplay. In my opinion Songun is the best G&W player but it's easily possible that Regi is actually better. I honestly cannot tell you where Gimr gained that amount of credit from. It's never been a big secret that MDVA isn't exactly the strongest region out there so even if he had decent results it wouldn't mean all that much.

How do you define "decent"? Even if Diddy and ZSS are only about -1 that's still an additional two losing matchups among the top tier characters. That may be decent if taken out of context but if you add it up with his even worse matchups against Rosalina and Fox it's honestly not looking too good. I take it we can agree that Sheik is a losing matchup as well? I think it's fair to say that G&W, despite having a couple of decent matchups up there, just doesn't have the overall spread required to be better than mid tier. Shulk also has a ton of 'decent' matchups but even the most optimistic people would not rank him higher than mid tier. I think that's where G&W belongs as well.

:059:
 
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Emblem Lord

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As an aside I feel G&W favors Ryu only slightly because of early kill confirms Ryu has. G&W outfootsies Ryu and is hard to gimp.
 

thehard

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Day 1 was a blast as usual, I fell asleep during the final crew battle though :(

One of my biggest takeaways was that ZeRo elected to use Diddy once more against Nairo's ZSS in their crew match. And he won soundly. I think that's just further proof that we underrate Diddy.

The second best player in the world playing the second best character in the game forcing the best player off his main (the best character) TWICE is not something we can ignore.
 

Sonicninja115

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How did Regi lose to SlayerZ? I know SlayerZ is really good but come on now
The way that Slayerz took out Nakat, I am not surprised. Also, MU inexperience.

At least we know that ZeRo is still the best for now. He was rocking komorikiri. If ZeRo had two stocks, he would have easily won IMO. And if Falln had taken a stock they probably would have won.
 
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