Character Board Specific Matchup Chart Project (Last Update: 12/21)- Not a tier list!

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The matchups in this thread are coming from the numbers decided by your own board..... idjits -_-

 

[DanGR]

Yeah, Ussi, I'm getting these matchups from both the Ike matchup threads and the other boards' threads. If there is disagreement for a matchup, I don't include it into the chart. You've got nothing to worry about as long as you think your matchup threads are correct.

Would you mind getting Cambriel (was it him?) to include matchup numbers or odds into his matchup thread? I like it better than the one that's up right now.

Edit: This is the thread I'm refering to: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160
It's YagamiLight's thread. There's no difficulty rating in it, so I can't use it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd just like to add, that MK > GaW (Hylian and M2K proofed it...)...it's not in the match-up threads unfortunately since it's relatively new...

 

[Kyari]

I don't think MK vs GaW is a very bad matchup, just that MK can punish some of GaW's approach options and that there aren't enough good GaW players to find ways to punish MK. I would disagree that anything has been "proven" other than that MK can Up B to always counter GaW's bair approach. My feeling is that Hylian hasn't played against this tactic enough to devise ways around it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'd just like to add, that MK > GaW (Hylian and M2K proofed it...)...it's not in the match-up threads unfortunately since it's relatively new...

if it's 55:45 it'll still be yellow anyhow... give it time. no reason to rush things

 

[Hylian]

I don't think MK vs GaW is a very bad matchup, just that MK can punish some of GaW's approach options and that there aren't enough good GaW players to find ways to punish MK. I would disagree that anything has been "proven" other than that MK can Up B to always counter GaW's bair approach. My feeling is that Hylian hasn't played against this tactic enough to devise ways around it.

I played M2K for hours. I have played LeeMartin and Dojo a ton. I wouldn't of posted that if I wasn't sure of it. It's not like I just tried once and got *****. I played for HOURS. Dojo also knows how to play against GW. 99% of MK players approach the match-up wrong though and it's easy to beat them with GW. The ones who know what they are doing I feel like I can't touch.

 

[Matador]

@matador

uhm...I've no clue what ur trying to say...I'm a bit hazy atm

Aside from being Starfox vs Starwolf n whatnot, both boards are stubborn. Not a bad thing, honestly as long as you're objective. I had no doubt that you guys would bunt heads.

 

[Kyari]

Yes Hylian, but you're just one person. You're probably the best G&W that I can think of, I know NoJ is good, but I don't know if he's as good as OBM and I don't think NoJ is as good as you, but you're still only one person. How many really good G&W mains are there? Not just the decent ones, but very good G&W's that are well-known for their G&W prowess? If there were half as many G&W mains as there were MK mains, I'm positive the G&W vs MK matchup would be a bit closer to being considered even.

 

[Zankoku]

Yes Hylian, but you're just one person. You're probably the best G&W that I can think of, I know NoJ is good, but I don't know if he's as good as OBM and I don't think NoJ is as good as you, but you're still only one person. How many really good G&W mains are there? Not just the decent ones, but very good G&W's that are well-known for their G&W prowess? If there were half as many G&W mains as there were MK mains, I'm positive the G&W vs MK matchup would be a bit closer to being considered even.

That's a borderline hilarious argument. It's like saying Captain Falcon's matchup favorability is directly proportional to the number of people playing Captain Falcon in tournament.

 

[Kyari]

No it is not, that's a terrible analogy, CF is a garbage character. G&W is in the top tier... you're antagonistic response is very flawed. Remember a thing M2K said about character evolution? What I am saying goes hand-in-hand with it.

EDIT:

Sorry baby, I'm very tired and haven't been to sleep in 24 hours and I've already been to work. Sorry I made a display of terrible grammar.

 

[Zankoku]

"Your."

What matters is that the actual matchup is the actual matchup is the actual matchup is completely detached from character popularity. Considering that these matchups require both character boards to agree to a single number I should hope that it's a consensus that's accurate regardless of how many people are playing so-and-so character.

 

[Kyari]

How much we know about the actual matchup is going to depend on how much time is spent exploring it, just like the highest level of Metaknight play is going to depend on how much time the best players put into using him.

 

[Zankoku]

While interpretation of matchup is revisable, popularity should not have such a major effect on anything. The random people who select a character they believe to lead to guaranteed victory (Meta Knight) will rarely contribute at all to his metagame. It is usually only the high level players who give any definition at all to any character's metagame. While player skill is not static, there is also theoretically no skill ceiling, so the high-level players will remain relatively high level.

The points Hylian makes may or may not be sound, but they will be taken in by both boards and may result in a change of the matchup number, but it will only happen when both sides agree. The matchup number will not be altered until then, I imagine.

I still don't understand why people get annoyed at grammar correction; if I made a mistake in language I'd like to hear about it as soon as possible lest it become a bad habit later on. To that end, keep in mind that if I give any grammar corrections then it does not apply to the argument at hand, directly, indirectly, at all.

 

[Kyari]

Well that's probably the very first time I've ever messed that up online, because I do tend to proofread every sentence I type on-the-go. I am tired and threw out my thought, and because of this, I made the error and my weariness also kept me from really proofreading what I typed, thus causing me to miss the error.

It's kind of like arguing over semantics, but worse, since there's not even any real confusion with regard to meaning or intent.

But anyway you're right when you say that most players won't contribute to the evolution of a popular character, but there are also many more MK mains among the top level than there are G&W mains, so my point continues to stand to reason.

 

[Zankoku]

List them for me.

 

[Kyari]

I'll do my best.

G&W:
Hylian
OBM
NoJ
Valden
Cosmo? not very active
lain? debatable? RyanK? mayybe?

MK:
M2K
DSF(secondary)
Azen(secondary)
vidjo
Lee
Chillin(switched from Falco who is now a secondary)
Dojo
Plarinkk
Stiltz(secondary)
teh_spamerer
KDJ
do we count inui? haven't seen him play but it doesn't matter

And the list goes on, my friend.

Now can you think of some more well-known G&W players for me?

 

[Praxis]

Valdens' G&W routinely gets top three at all WA tournies.

 

[Kyari]

Awesome, I'll add that to my list and see if I can find any recent vids of Valden.

What's the MK scene like in WA?

 

[Zankoku]

It's made of Eggz and Jem.

What's with all the secondary? KDJ? what?
I don't see the Meta Knight community having a terribly larger development speed than G&W given those numbers, unless Mew2King actually is contributing to it, because all I hear is that he's trying to hide all the little tricks he knows from the public.

 

[Kyari]

You know, even when you take out the secondaries AND the maybe's in the MK list, you go to the GW list and take out the maybe's and you still have half the numbers. Plus, the highest of caliber players are all also the ones using MK, so I could say that this weights the MK evolution just a tad, but I won't (or did I do just that now?).

I'm sure he is trying to do that, but he can't prevent people from learning from him in MK dittos PLUS as you already saw from a previous discussion he told Lee how to play against G&W when Lee was playing against Hylian. So if he's trying to hide the little tricks from the public, why would he be telling the other really good MK's how to play character-specific matchups?

 

[Zankoku]

I have no idea how Mew2King's mind works, but I'll ask him if you don't.

 

[PK-ow!]

Sorry. That blows my mind^. It's 1:46 in the morning and I couldn't respond logically to that seemingly incredibly deep post* if you were to pay me to. (I tried, but I laughed at what I was typing, haha)

When I wake up tomorrow, (or later today I guess) I may think that post was dumb. lolz

*head explodes*

12 hours later:

stuff

 

[Kyari]

Now I'm not going to argue that G&W vs MK is in any solid favor of G&W nor that it's a completely even matchup. However, I think that it is anywhere between even or 60-40 MK, depending on stage, and I hypothesize that the perceived matchup ratio is worse because there has not been enough G&W character evolution to elevate his gameplay to that of MK.

 

[Zankoku]

Funny, the perceived matchup ratio reads "yellow" (between 45:55 and 55:45) to me.

 

[Kyari]

Right, and Hylian says that it's 60-40 MK at least. M2K once said it was 70-30, but you know M2K and his hyperbole. These estimates are that which I contest.

I would agree with the perceived matchup ratio according to your post though.

 

[Zankoku]

My post is made according to the chart on the front page. You must've been reading too far ahead.

 

[Kyari]

I was merely responding to Gheb's post until you came into the picture.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah it's all my fault [/sarcasm]

 

[Zankoku]

Troublemaker.



lol

 

[Xiivi]

That's all I see Gheb do.

 

[Praxis]

Awesome, I'll add that to my list and see if I can find any recent vids of Valden.

What's the MK scene like in WA?

For a while Eggz has been the only MK, but now Jem plays Falco and MK both, and brdy moved back and plays MK too (but he's eastern WA).

There's a lot of bad MKs too but they get *****.

Jem is currently top of PR, but I think Bladewise's Marth/Bowser is going back up in the next update. It should be Bladewise (Marth/Bowser), Jem (Falco/MK), Valdens (G&W), Eggz (MK).

There's not a lot of good Valdens videos online sadly. He tends to choke when he's being recorded, LOL. Here's an Eggz vs Valdens match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLhzUKZf4SY

 

[~ Gheb ~]

thx for teh flames ...

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Gheb even make trouble in the WBR... lol, no he doesn't...

 

[DanGR]

[stuff}

So I was wondering if these matchup charts, and future Smash meta developers, would look into annotating ditto matchups with any sort of information, beyond the current "auto-slash" we see running across the chart on post 1 here.

Ditto matches are decided by difference in technical skill between the two players.
They're decided by how much they know about fighting their own character.
They're also decided by how well each player can manipulate their opponent's mind.

When it all comes down to it, 50-50 matchups are decided by all of these factors, (and others I didn't bother naming) and combining them into two categories: skill and matchup knowledge. Ditto matches differ from one another in that some can show the gap in the skill level and matchup knowledge between two players more clearly than others. I do believe that. This doesn't negate the fact that all dittos are still 50-50 matchups though.

In a way, this refutes the universally accepted idea that matchup odds show how much more skill a person has to have to beat their opponent with their characters. I look at matchup odds not as what percentage chance you have of winning, or what was said in the previous sentence, but rather that they show the balance between two characters advantages and disadvantages versus one another.

These are just my thoughts though.

Does that answer your question?

@everyone else,
I've been thinking about whether or not I should extend advantages to 55-45 matchups. Thoughts?

 

[Steeler]

i agree with extending advantages, dangr. it is a very small advantage, however small and trivial those 5 points are. this is why i dislike numerical representations of matchups.

i also agree with your viewpoint that the numbers represent the balance between the two characters, and not how often one character would win in 100 matches.

 

[Justblaze647]

Stuff... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLhzUKZf4SY

WTF??!!? NO!!!

How is that even possible??!?!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No. Leave it like that. 55:45 and 45:55 match-ups are neutral

 

[Mmac]

I disagree. I think the current system is good, and I don't think 55/45 should be in the same field as 65/35

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

eh... it's not the same thing as dead even but I'll take it.

 

[Steeler]

you could use a different color for the in between numbers that aren't multiples of 10...

also, i suggest you work up some kind of network between all of the managers of the threads on each board so they can contact you whenever there's a change, and so that they can communicate with each other. just a thought.